"If you have a Dremel and some metal polish, you can get quite a bit more out of it as it is. Polish the spool cap shims, inside of the line guide, line guide pawl, spool shaft ends, brake drum, inside of the pinion gear, worm gear end, and idler gear stud. Use a tiny drop of oil inside the spool bushings, small drop on the idler gear stud, two drops in the worm gear, one drop each in the spool caps, and the inside of the pinion gear, and you'll have a screamer. TSI 321 suggested. Additionally you may want to use the lightest brake blocks available or even do without them altogether. It'll perform pretty dang good and cost an hour of your time. Here's my own personal 4500, two spool bearings with everything else polished, no brake blocks installed. Keep in mind this is the more contemporary design with the fixed axle." - Tincanary
I have read quite a few Ambassadeur topics that address free spool. The quote above from Tincanary is the best advice I have found.
I am building an Ambassadeur 6500 C3 CT MAG from parts, so there is a chance that some of the tolerances are just enough out of alignment to interfere with free spool. I opened up the bearings, cleaned out all the old grey colored lubricant/grease and added TSI 321. The spool on the axle (not put back in the reel) spins for about 40 seconds. When I put everything back together it drops to 12 seconds.
The C3CT does not have a levelwind mechanism so that takes a bunch out of the equation. I did polish the spool cap shims, spool shaft, and spool shaft bushing (I have the extra long bushing since there is no plastic clicker/levelwind gear on the spool shaft). I removed the brake blocks. I don't have a Dremel attachment small enough to polish the inside of the pinion gear or brake drum, but I used 0000 steel wool. I'm hoping someone will tell me a magic process I missed instead of the spool shaft being ever so slightly bent. If it comes down to it, a stainless steel spool shaft just may be the ticket. Also better bearings is probably not a bad idea either.
This is more of a fun project than a necessity for fishing, but doesn't hurt for me to learn how to get insane free spool times.
Nick
A valiant effort for sure. I have used a marking liquid (magic marker works if need be) on spool shafts to see where the adverse contact is or to identify a bent shaft.
Also, you need to be very careful with all that polishing, it is very easy to polish something out of round or heat it enough to warp a little and then you have made things worse as opposed to better.
Good luck.
The Man
The Magtrax braking system found in these reels is always applying braking force regardless of setting. It's a linear braking system, applying power throughout the entire cast ensuring the spool behaves. I have a couple reels with it, a 4600 C4 Mag and a 4600 C5, neither of them free spool like my centrifugally braked reels. If you want to test it, remove the Magtrax assembly and see how much more the spool will spin. This iteration of Magtrax always has the magnets close to the spool. The slider adjusts the angle in which they sit in relation to the spool allowing for an narrow range of braking power. Newer versions of Magtrax found in the low profile reels work differently. In those, the magnets are moved closer to the spool to increase braking power or further away to decrease it. This gives the brake a wider range of usable power with near 0 braking applied at the minimum setting. The Knobby Mag works in similar fashion to the Magtrax II and III system in low profile reels. Since the distance from spool to magnet can be adjusted, this makes them capable of more free spool. There are plenty of YouTube videos of Knobby magged reels achieving very long free spool times, because they can dial the braking power way down.
I haven't got the magtrax pieces yet, it has an open slit on the left side plate right now.
It sounds like you're getting friction from somewhere. Is the face of the spool bushing dirty? I know this may sound dumb, but what about spool tension? Do you have it set to where there's a tiny bit of lateral play?
Might want to make sure the frame is square too, the wider the spool the more it will effect free spool. You should be getting much better free spool than that with a CT
The spool bushing is polished inside and out. It looks awful pretty. Maybe some sort of shim between the spool bushing and the bearing would reduce friction even more.
I have messed with the caps on both sides quite a bit, it only seems to give or take a few seconds.
It is possible the frame isn't square anymore, it is a used frame. This would be the perfect excuse to get an AKS one piece frame.
My gut tells me it's the shaft or the frame, but I don't have the experience to back that thought up completely. Maybe I'll start with a new shaft and go from there.
You can find out if it's the shaft fairly easy. Loosen up the crank side spool tension knob and see how easy it is to wiggle the spool. If it takes a little effort to move, the axle may be bent. I had this issue on a reel I did, spool wouldn't spin as well as it should have. When I'd loosen the tension knob, it took a fair amount of effort to wiggle the spool. I swapped in a new axle and it was nice and free.
Okay, I'm baffled.
I backed off the tension caps, the spool moved left to right. Free spool was still 10-12 seconds. Decided to use the cage from my 1970 6000 and got 16 seconds of free spool. Put the CT cage on and I'm getting 45-50 seconds every time now. Something had to be binding/rubbing or there was a little gremlin trapped in there. Whatever it was, I'm pretty darned happy right now. Now if I can get it over one minute. This is probably where better bearings will help out.
Nick
Sometimes it's telling to tilt the reel 90 degrees so the spool is only riding one side. Then check the free spin time. Reverse it all and check the free spin time on when it is only riding on the other side.
Also, if you have a side plate removed, hold the spool vertically and spin the side plate on the spool spindle. Then repeat for the other side.
-steve
There's a guy, Tom Taiton, from Australia that hot rods Abus and he can get crazy freespools.
https://youtu.be/A3iynasTLuY
That's Tom! He runs a Facebook group, "We you loves the Abu Ambassadeur". Great group. Real works of art there and lots of connections to Asian companies who make specialty parts.
That's some good free spool for sure. Amazing what a little elbow grease will do, much cheaper than buying flavor of the month bearings. Another trick you could try, put a drop of oil on the face of the spool bushing where it makes contact with the spool. That should give you a little more spin time.
Nick, have you thrown it? That might help wear everything in a little- you can spin by hand all day but nothing like the rpm slinging a 5oz.
John, I haven't even put it on a rod. I have the 12' Ocean Master and some lead. Maybe I should see what happens
John's right. Playing with free spin on a rainy night is fun, but the proof is in the casting; particularly if you have no thumb control and rely heavily on the braking system. Within reason, it will get better and better with use. When the chips are down, the rod is just as important as the reel.
-steve
I think we talked about that rod when you got it, maybe for the 990. I'm all for max free spool, but IMO, I think you will find it plenty fast as-is for chunking lead and bait, which is what that set-up is about- you're going to need thumb anyway when your mullet head gets up in a breeze and starts to whirlygig. Any more is an academic exercise- but I know you, let us know how much more you can get :)
For a practical application, a bigger consideration at this point is the line. Mono is a little more tamable and easier to pick out the inevitable nest, and a "cool" line under thumb. Braid is thinner and more sensitive, but a belt sander under thumb if you're trying to reach low altitude orbit. If it were me I'd spool with 17lb mono and a 15 ft, 50lb shock leader while you learn the throw this one. If you pile it up, it will be a lot faster or cheaper than braid to get out of. My 0.02.
The family and I are taking the camper out to Lake Anna for Thanksgiving. If we need to stay isolated, might as well be somewhere I can fish. I'm gonna take the 6500 C3 CT and the tuned 1970 6000. I'll take two rods, a 10' Penn Prevail and a 12' Offshore Angler Ocean Master. I should have some time to play with the reels and create a few bird nests. I definitely don't have an expert thumb, but should be able to toss some lead out a ways.
I do have a bearing question. I took the shields off, cleaned out the grey grease, soaked in TSI 321 and then put the shields back on. I feel like the TSI 321 is so thin it comes out and may leave the bearings dry over time. My free spool has decreased to 16-20 seconds without changing any settings. Like John mentioned, this is more of an academic exercise. How do I keep the bearings spinning like a top while not needing to be opened up and re-lubricated every 20th spin of the spool? I'm sure there are several products exactly for this purpose. Currently at home I only have Penn blue grease, Cal's, and TSI 321.
To make sure I've taken care of any other friction points, I plan on taking steel wool to surfaces again as well as the dremel with metal polish. I appreciate Ron's advice to not go too crazy with the polishing to avoid warping surfaces.
I dumped Facebook a while ago so I can't check out Tom Taiton's Facebook group for hints, but I'm sure I can get some hints from him in other ways. I also know we have some free spool experts here Tincanary seems to be one of them, but there's also a post by Alan with a TLD that had minutes of free spool. Maybe after a few years of this I'll get half as good as these crazy reel doctors.
Nick
I looked a lot at that Ocean Master, I'd appreciate you letting us know what you think. Its light enough to cast bombs with for salmon next year.
The Man
I have only used the Ocean Master with my 990. I was able to cast 4-6oz lead with chunk bait with ease. I never measured the distance, but it went sailing.
I have the OSR12C which is a heavy model ( 20-50lb line 6-12oz lure )
Casting repeatedly to soak baits didn't seem like much of an issue.
The blue finish does scuff up pretty easy. I've been trying to take extra care of it to avoid unsightly blemishes.
Great,
I would probably go one down from there. THe price seems right for a beach / rock rod.
The Man
I took the 6500 C3CT (built from parts) apart and used a dremel with polishing wheels at low speed with Peek metal polish. Everything turned out very shiny and smooth. I took the bearings apart again, cleaned them out, added a single drop of TSI321 to each and put them back in the spool with only one shield on per bearing. I also left a thin copper shim out when reassembling. The shim is shown in the photo, and was originally behind the spool bearing on the handle side.
I am up to 52 seconds of free spool just spinning the spool with my thumb, and 62 seconds if I spin the handle and then depress the clutch lever. I'm not sure if I can get much more than this with the used parts I built this with.
I still haven't put any of the left side plate magtrax assembly in this. I also have zero brake blocks installed.
Quote from: ReelFishingProblems on December 20, 2020, 04:02:23 PM
I took the 6500 C3CT (built from parts) apart and used a dremel with polishing wheels at low speed with Peek metal polish. Everything turned out very shiny and smooth. I took the bearings apart again, cleaned them out, added a single drop of TSI321 to each and put them back in the spool with only one shield on per bearing. I also left a thin copper shim out when reassembling. The shim is shown in the photo, and was originally behind the spool bearing on the handle side.
I am up to 52 seconds of free spool just spinning the spool with my thumb, and 62 seconds if I spin the handle and then depress the clutch lever. I'm not sure if I can get much more than this with the used parts I built this with.
I still haven't put any of the left side plate magtrax assembly in this. I also have zero brake blocks installed.
That copper shim really should be in place.
Quote from: Ken_D on January 23, 2012, 08:34:08 PM
One small detail, tho, on the spool assy: I did not see where you indicated there was a bent copper shim inside the spool on the crank side. (p/n 13104) http://www.abugarcia.com/sites/default/files/schematics/6600C5MAGX%20%201600.pdf No shim, things don't go quite as planned. Thanks, Ken.
In my opinion if you use TSI 301 it will spin even longer. I use the spray on the bearings and get much more freespool.
What could happen without the shim? I polished the shim up with the dremel and put it in the spool first followed by the bearing and am getting 65 seconds.
I will definitely try the 301
Have you thrown it yet?
I haven't used it yet, the Lake Anna trip ended up with significantly less fishing than I planned. I plan on putting it with a 10' penn prevail rod I have my Penn Squall 12 on, but I'd like to get something to pair specifically with this reel. Open to suggestions
prevail will do nicely. send me the Squall :)
As this is a full custom build, I would suggest you do the same with the rod to match, given you have the skillzzzzzz.....a two-piece 11' or 11.5 Lami rated 3-8 or 4-10. Vs. Prevail and OM you have, for another $150 or less, you have a legacy combo, unique with reel seat positioned specifically to you. No point in building that performance reel and putting it on a production stick that isn't laid out (re seat and guide and placement) for you and your fishing application.
A 10' is a waste on that reel. My 0.02, but with an 11.5, 3-8 you should be able to put a 150G lead out in the 400-500 foot range if not more.
Quote from: handi2 on December 20, 2020, 06:37:16 PM
In my opinion if you use TSI 301 it will spin even longer. I use the spray on the bearings and get much more freespool.
what spray?
At Detector Buy you can get the TSI in a small aerosol can. I use it a lot.
Keith
Quote from: handi2 on November 06, 2021, 08:32:51 PM
At Detector Buy you can get the TSI in a small aerosol can. I use it a lot.
Keith
Thank you but I'm a newb - what is TSI? is that a brand...
Bob, dunno where you are, but they are speaking of TSI 321, which you might have to order. You might be able to find Corrosion X or Speed X at a tackle shop. Corrosion X is still widely used and was the go-to before TS-321. I still use Corrosion X or Speed X because I can lay hands on them. If you want the fastest and are ordering anyway, you might want Rocket Fuel, however it is very light and designed for max distance in casting bearings, not max protection. For me and my casting proficiency, Corrosion X works great, and I can throw some of my reels 140-150 yards with it. If you're on a boat in freshwater, simple Abu reel oil may do fine. Anything is better than nothing, except maybe Hot Sauce- it's gummed a lot of things and made reel techs unhappy here or there.
My 0.02
John