Question for the rod builders. I'm in the process of rewrapping a 7' Californian rod rated 30-50lb. It has 9+1 guides. Originally there were no under wraps on the guides, but as I peeled off the old expoxy and thread it has left the rod pretty ugly underneath. My question....will adding under wraps greatly affect the rod action? Another question would the under wraps actually add strength (backbone) and allow the rod to be fished heavier? I will be using it for dropper loop and yo-yo fishing so finesse is not a worry. Thanks in advance....Bill
I wouldn't own a bigger rod that didn't have under wraps !!!! John Taylor
Quote from: 54bullseye on March 07, 2022, 08:09:40 PMI wouldn't own a bigger rod that didn't have under wraps !!!! John Taylor
I said it on Stripersonline. It`s like having a shoes with no socks..
The old sabre sglass Californians were a more economy built rod. It was a thin wall glass but very longitudinally strong rod, therefore lighter in weight. So being economy they saved on just a single wrap for the most part. I would definitely run some underwraps on a rod with that action, probably size a or c thread though. The older fibreglass rods were designed to have an underwrap to protect the blank especially with the older style chrome or stainless guides. Pressure generated on the guide under a heavy load could cause the foot to dig into rod at the outward tips of the guides setting on blank. Underwraps also give the rod a very nice custom look. Have fun building your rod there are so many new colors of thread and guides to choose from!
Quote from: Bill B (Tarfu) on March 07, 2022, 07:26:02 PM...will adding under wraps greatly affect the rod action? Another question would the under wraps actually add strength (backbone) and allow the rod to be fished heavier? I will be using it for dropper loop and yo-yo fishing so finesse is not a worry. Thanks in advance....Bill
if rod action and rod weight its not a problem then go for it, with more thread and epoxy on the blank you will feel the rod more firm and bit heavier, but that dont give any additional strength to the blank, it will look and feel better in your hands and also it will more protected against boat rash and deep scratches but thats all, in my book it worth the time and cost to put underwraps in those kind of rods.
Looking forward to seeing how this one comes out! It sounds cool! - john
:) Underware ,i mean under wraps are the way to go . One of the nieces part of underwraps is the ease of changing a guide in the future when some one rebuilds your rod to keep some old and some new .
I used to think that under wraps were basically 2 layers over the guide feet. Guess i shoulda looked at the first word of the name...
Also I can't help feeling like guides digging into the blank are a lesser concern if you're not grinding the point of the guide foot?
Conversely to what Joe is saying, the worst part is when you wanna move the guides and you gotta cut off the under wrap too!
Thanks everyone.....looks like under wraps it is! Bill
Quote from: sabaman1 on March 09, 2022, 04:33:30 AMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on March 08, 2022, 03:22:44 PMI used to think that under wraps were basically 2 layers over the guide feet. Guess i shoulda looked at the first word of the name...
Also I can't help feeling like guides digging into the blank are a lesser concern if you're not grinding the point of the guide foot?
Fishing the California coast I've seen a few rods in my time especially factory wraps break
right on a guide. Sometimes spline is usually off when it happens, another factory mistake. It happens at times and its a terrible sound when it does. OUCH!!!
Here is the under wrap. My attempt (bottom) to copy an old Penn Californian (top). Not as good as some of our members, but it will fish! Bill
(https://alantani.com/gallery/36/8753-110322010405.jpeg)
Your on the way to a nice custom build. Very nice clean job Bill!
Good Bill, thats a lot better than my first try , looking good, cheers Don.
My favorite color Bili. Once I bought a rod just because it was deep red.
When on rod - reel, it shines.
That is a good looking wrap! Love those old Californian rods. - john
Looking good Bill, good to see retirement is treating you well. Rockfish season is upon us, holler if you're coming up.
Looks real good Bill !!! Nice and clean. Great job ! John Taylor
Almost done with the U/Wraps, 3 more guides and the tip. Then a light coat of epoxy, guides and final coat of epoxy. If I have enough thread I will strip and wrap the rod where it enters the fore grip. It's kind of nerve wracking starting with partial spools of thread. I guess if I had more experience I could tell how much thread was needed. Bill
Quote from: Bill B (Tarfu) on March 11, 2022, 05:44:41 PMIf I have enough thread I will strip and wrap the rod where it enters the fore grip. It's kind of nerve wracking starting with partial spools of thread. I guess if I had more experience I could tell how much thread was needed. Bill
if you're not sure if the thread will be enough for that part, try combining two or three different colors, the thing is to use a lot less color of the one which is about to finish.
I know what you mean about how much thread is left on a spool , but that`s how trim bands were invented .
Are you coating the under wrap with epoxy before you install the guides?
Quote from: oldmanjoe on March 11, 2022, 09:38:36 PMAre you coating the under wrap with epoxy before you install the guides?
Yes, I will put a light coat on the wraps before installing the guides. This will ensure the wrappings are glued to the rods and keep those F#%$£¥€ trim bands in place.
But I did suffer a set back, while winding the threads near the top, 3" of the rod broke off. Not sure what happened, did I gouge the rod removing the old guides, get it too hot with the torch loosening the old expoxy? Strange it was a clean break on a hollow core rod. No big deal, lost 3" of a 7' rod. Just had to dig out a tip top with a larger socket to fit the "new" tip 😉. I will flex check the rod before I put too much more time in. Bill
You increased the rating by 5#s!
Once I had a tip of a rod starting splicing. Took that 3 inches off, from a tip, because I had no choice, and ended up with an unusable rod.
It was a surf rod.
If that rod of yours is some big game rod, it might be fine.
But if you need that tip to detect, or assist in fighting the fish, it is probably useless.
Chances are that was were a guide was . NO big deal , you lost a little bite indicator tip it and check to see if you need to readjust one or two guides location .
Finished the wraps. Needed a rod dryer but didn't want to pay for a commercial dryer. I had a rotisserie motor laying around and figured it's 4 rpm would be good for rod drying. So I made a square bolt to fit in the motor socket and mounted a 2" PVC end cap. A pool noodle donated a couple inches to snug the butt into the end cap and we are off to the epoxy races. The wraps turned a deep red, I guess a color preserver would have kept the lighter color. But heck, the fish don't care and it will fish. Bill
Nice job on the homemade dryer . I will caution you on the pool noodle , they will slip after a few hours or fall out . I suggest bolts at 90 degrees and use rubber bands to act as the drive bands .
They will also hold the bolts from walking in the 6-8 hours that you are turning .
Nothing worse than to see the cap turning and the rod not with the guides down and epoxy grapes hanging from them ..
>:( Yes I found that out, luckily I was standing near by when it did. So adjusted by adding a 3" section of 2" abs, with pool noodle slivers to center. Then wrapped some black electrical tape around the rear grip and the abs tube. It's rather cold in the shop so I ran the dryer for about 8 hrs. Looking good, but will have some dust particles to shave off in the am. Most of them will be covered by the guide wraps. Bill
Joe, I feel I may have improved upon your dryer setup a bit (and in this case it's literally "your" setup I've improved since you generously gave it to me). I have phased out the rubber bands which deteriorate rapidly especially if any epoxy has touched them. I've commandeered two of my wife's stretchy hair ties which get one twist before the rod is inserted (2 twists if I'm doing deco work on a blank that doesn't have grips yet). I wish I had a pic but the rod is sitting in the "diamond" created by twisting the band after its in place. this pinches the blank and keeps it centered, but not so tightly that a finger won't keep the blank still for a moment if needed while the dryer continues to turn, so you dont need to kill the power if you see a spot you missed.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on March 16, 2022, 02:00:06 PMJoe, I feel I may have improved upon your dryer setup a bit (and in this case it's literally "your" setup I've improved since you generously gave it to me). I have phased out the rubber bands which deteriorate rapidly especially if any epoxy has touched them. I've commandeered two of my wife's stretchy hair ties which get one twist before the rod is inserted (2 twists if I'm doing deco work on a blank that doesn't have grips yet). I wish I had a pic but the rod is sitting in the "diamond" created by twisting the band after its in place. this pinches the blank and keeps it centered, but not so tightly that a finger won't keep the blank still for a moment if needed while the dryer continues to turn, so you dont need to kill the power if you see a spot you missed.
You explained it better by saying sitting in the diamond !!!
Also I like that marbling...
Very unusual for metallic threads to change colour when being coated with rod finish resin. In fact, have never had that happen, if anything metallics tend to boost their core colour under resin.
Strange.
Bill, just saw this. Very clean job on the wrapping. 100% agree on underwraps. let me know if you need anything. If you have a number on that red you're using, lemme know and if i have it i will send on. For bottom fishing with braid and bait the 3" may not hurt you too badly- I've a lot of rods i got for pennies with such injury and repurposed into something where I needed stiffer action or for trolling. My first motor was a rotisserie, and i built a lot of rods on it. What worked for years, and i still use it on a different motor, was to drill four holes in the PVC at compass 90 degree points, and turn in thumb screws. they will self tap. i then wrap a few turns of electrical tape around butt cap for protection and set the rod. The thumb screws allow you to perfectly center the blank to offset for least amount of oscillation, which is nice on a limber rod where the weight of guides may actually cause flex. Nice work.
I finished the Californian CA-670 C. With two busted guides and corrosion on the rest it was time for a rebuild. Stripping the old guides and expoxy was tedious and took about 5 hours. With the blank stripped on went the under wraps trying to stay faithful to the older Penn Californians I love so much. U/Ws took 6 hours and the guides another 5 hours. All wraps were done by hand on some pillars I made. Then cobbled together a rod dryer motor. The U/Ws received a coat of 2 part expoxy (ProKote by Mudhole). And dried overnite. There were a few thread buds and air bubbles to carve out but most were covered by the guide wraps. I have never used 2 part before and there was a learning curve. I found by slathering the wraps with epoxy and spreading it out worked best for me. Then the guides were installed and the first coat of 2 part was applied and overnite cure. The next morning the second coat was applied and cured overnite. I did apply 2 coats of 2 part to the entire rod which makes this rod look brand new. Of course there are a few issues with the epoxy, fish eyes, footballs and loosing 3" but I'm happy and the fish don't care 😉. I have to say all the support from everyone on this site makes it fun to tackle new things (2 part expoxy) I don't know if I'm cut out to do a lot of rod building, very tedious, kinda like sorting fly poop out of pepper. It is nice to know that I can do it. Bill
P.S. When I tried to upload the photo showing the "Californian" label there was a TM (trademark) symbol and apparently the software will not allow a TM to be uploaded. I put black tape over it and had no issues uploading.
Nice work ! I've wrapped a few in my day and know what goes into building / wrapping rods. What guides are on that 670 ? They look very interesting...
Cool
Thanks for the kind words. The guides are Mudholes CRB braced wire framed boat guides. Bill
Nice job Bill, get some satisfaction using gear you had a hand in making
You did a really good job , thread work is nice and tight .
So at what point does a conventional rod 'need' under wraps?
Full disclosure I've come to realize i hate doing under wraps, but I recognize that they're appropriate past a certain point, once one expects a rod to experience a certain amount of winding load.
So the question is what is that point where they become appropriate? Would a graphite rod (mod action 12-25# line rating) using fuji MN guides that'll never see more than 15# of drag warrant such an effort? I know it's my rod i can build it however I want. But that doesn't mean I don't wanna hear more experienced opinions.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on May 05, 2022, 01:55:34 PMWould a graphite rod (mod action 12-25# line rating) using fuji MN guides that'll never see more than 15# of drag
I will like to see a 12-25lb graphite rod that handle 25# drag
Quote from: steelfish on May 13, 2022, 01:19:27 AMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on May 05, 2022, 01:55:34 PMWould a graphite rod (mod action 12-25# line rating) using fuji MN guides that'll never see more than 15# of drag
I will like to see a 12-25lb graphite rod that handle 25# drag
Easy. Just point it at the fish!
At what point do you start recommending under wraps?