Hi Everybody,
I finally got a Penn 50SW International. ;D
Had to open it up immediately and service it. It had never been opened before. I found water inside the drag. The friend I bought it from, had in fact washed it today. I was also surprised to find water intrusion in the left spool bearing. Of all the bearings, this one bearing is in bad shape. As, I have no alternative right now, I cleaned it with gasoline and WD40, and packed it (and all the other bearings) with Penn Reel Grease. No wonder I have zero free spool, but my question is:
Do I really need free spool on a reel that I'll be only trolling with?
Another issue that's disturbing me a bit is the drag lever stops over the locating pin just above where FREE is engraved (Key # 69.) It was so before I opened the reel and it is so still. Is this the normal position for an International II? There is clearly more room for the lever to move backwards, but the cam stops right there. I was able to bring the lever fully back while the right side plate was open, but as soon as I put the reel together it retained its original position. Let me post a pic here...
Kindly, also advise if the reel should be washed in freespool or with drag engaged to avoid water intrusion.
Thanks!
you might consider cleaning out the two spool bearings again, removing the grease, and just lightly oiling the bearings. that way you will have free spool. for the lever, if you get good free spool in that position, then i'd leave it as is. let's see what kind of freespool you get first. for washing the reel, the drag chamber is a little more closed off but still not totally sealed when in the free position. you will get less water into the drag chamber when the reel is in free, but with heavy water flow, you may still get some. make sure the drag washers are well grease with cal's grease and water should not affect the drag. the spool bearings may go bad, but at least the drag washers will be ok.
Quote...is the drag lever stops over the locating pin just above where FREE is engraved (Key # 69.) It was so before I opened the reel and it is so still. Is this the normal position for an International II?
Sort of. Short answer is no, that is not how it was intended to be. BUT it seems to happen to be that way from time to time anyway; a mistake from the factory. I had one like that myself.
Take a look inside, at the cup in which the cam resides. There is a small milled pocket on the edge, in which a screw head fits. This decides the cams zero position. Sometimes it can be a bit off. This is fixable, if you really want to. Have a look and fiddle with it; you'll understand.
.
Quote from: alantani on September 08, 2017, 06:10:27 PM
you might consider cleaning out the two spool bearings again, removing the grease, and just lightly oiling the bearings. that way you will have free spool. for the lever, if you get good free spool in that position, then i'd leave it as is. let's see what kind of freespool you get first. for washing the reel, the drag chamber is a little more closed off but still not totally sealed when in the free position. you will get less water into the drag chamber when the reel is in free, but with heavy water flow, you may still get some. make sure the drag washers are well grease with cal's grease and water should not affect the drag. the spool bearings may go bad, but at least the drag washers will be ok.
I removed the grease and oiled the spool bearings with Penn Reel Lube... now getting 10-12 seconds of freespool... but can't figure out a proper way to give the spool a nice good spin because of the frame. I am sure I'd get more freespool if I could somehow get the spool going at a good speed.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on September 08, 2017, 10:16:06 PMSort of. Short answer is no, that is not how it was intended to be. BUT it seems to happen to be that way from time to time anyway; a mistake from the factory. I had one like that myself.
Take a look inside, at the cup in which the cam resides. There is a small milled pocket on the edge, in which a screw head fits. This decides the cams zero position. Sometimes it can be a bit off. This is fixable, if you really want to. Have a look and fiddle with it; you'll understand.
I don't seem to get it right. It goes all the way back when the right sideplate is taken off, but as soon as I put it back, the lever begins to have the same problem again..
10-12 seconds of freespool for a trolling reel like this should be fine. how much drag can you get?
Quote from: alantani on September 09, 2017, 05:15:45 PM
10-12 seconds of freespool for a trolling reel like this should be fine. how much drag can you get?
I'll test and let you know soon
Quote from: alantani on September 09, 2017, 05:15:45 PM
10-12 seconds of freespool for a trolling reel like this should be fine. how much drag can you get?
I just tested 30# at strike with 6s freespool. Didn't dare to push the lever all the way to full.
I just worked on a Penn 50 and I noticed the same thing regarding the lever. I took it apart twice to make sure.
Free spool really doesn't need to be amazing on bigger reels because you aren't casting. I pack all my open bearings with Penn blue and I've never had any issues. As long as the spool turns when you are letting the bait out, it's all good.
Quote from: FatTuna on September 09, 2017, 10:46:03 PM
I just worked on a Penn 50 and I noticed the same thing regarding the lever. I took it apart twice to make sure.
Free spool really doesn't need to be amazing on bigger reels because you aren't casting. I pack all my open bearings with Penn blue and I've never had any issues. As long as the spool turns when you are letting the bait out, it's all good.
Were you able to sort out the lever issue? I have a feeling the outer cup of the cam assembly that is held into position with a single screw on the inside of sideplate, can be adjusted to bring the lever to the proper place. I'll give it a try sometime...
Agree with you on the freespool.
No, I took it apart and reassembled. No improvement.
Quote
I just tested 30# at strike with 6s freespool....
Which seems completely normal, for a non-sleeved spool with such a high drag setting.
Quote
...the outer cup of the cam assembly that is held into position with a single screw on the inside of sideplate, can be adjusted to bring the lever to the proper place. I'll give it a try sometime...
Yes, precisely.
.
Thank you for reconfirming, Robert. Is it possible to adjust the cup with the drag lever attached or do I have disassemble the right side plate completely to do it?
Another question is, at 30# at strike, I hardly get any room to play with the drag; as soon as the drag is engaged, I am getting very heavy drag. Can altering the bellevilles change this favourably? I have currently left them in ()() stock configuration, as I would be fishing stand up style with 50# mono over 65# JB Solid, so won't be needing more than 20# at strike.
Regards,
Ijlal
Pretty sure the cups are held in place with two screws. The other screw might just be blocked from view by the gear. I don't think you can make an adjustment to the cup aside from flipping it around 180 degrees.
Okay, a couple of things:
Yes, the cup can be misaligned, and can be corrected. Pics, description and links to follow.
BUT, you said
QuoteIt goes all the way back when the right sideplate is taken off, but as soon as I put it back, the lever begins to have the same problem again..
...so that might change things a bit. We need to make certain the origin of this problem.
With the right sideplate in its entirety removed from the reel and in your hand, and the cam assembly with its bearing and all, still in place, try the lever. Keep pressure on the bearing with your finger or thumb. That way you can both see and feel what is happening.
Keeping pressure on the bearing, slide the lever down towards freespool. At the instant that the lever
goes past the freespool button, you should feel with your finger how the bearing suddenly shifts into the right side plate plate.
Right so far? If so, read no further.
But from what I understand from your post, at the instant the drag lever
arrives at or just above the freespool button is when you feel the bearing shift. Correct?
Okay. IF SO, then:
The bronze cup holding the cam and bearing is as said, misoriented in the right side plate. No big deal, it happens. What you can do is either ignore it, or...
Look here. Look at those screws holding the cup in place. Sometimes there is one, sometimes two, whatever.
(http://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11644.0;attach=8001;image)
Loosen those screws a bit. And, with the same procedure, keeping pressure on the bearing, try the lever again. Now you can adjust the cup's position a few degrees, so that the cam's action matches that of the lever. (hint... seems to me that the cup would need to be rotated a few degrees clockwise).
And now, being careful not to budge things, clamp down those screws again. Try the lever. Feel right, everything works? Good-- now you know how it is supposed to be.
Now, here is the thing... you need to make a notch in the edge of the cup to match the screw heads position, so it stays right there. Scribe a line, use a sharpie, whatever... Use a mill or a Dremel to make the notches, it is up to you...
And now you know.
Other threads with similar subject:
www.alantani.com/index.php?topic=11644 and www.alantani.com/index.php?topic=5403
.
Ijlal: In reply to the question do I need free spool on a trolling reel. The answer is yes, and for more reasons than are cited.
If you just want the reel to let out line as you are placing the bait/lure in the moat wash, ensuring the spool bearings work is mandatory. This has been covered.
However that leaves two other bearings in question: on in each of the sideplates.
If you have a rusty or frozen bearing in the sideplates this could have a negative effect on the ability of the reel to actually fight the fish under pressure, in that the ability of the pinion to float freely within the bearings is helpful to optimize the drag and thrust portion of the reel. In fact the reel was designed that way. There's a reason you got such a big reel, and its not to fight tiddlers! Otherwise you have a "dollar waiting on a dime".
IMO, I would also ensure the sideplate bearings work excellently. Pennparts or Boca Bearings have the right sizes.
Good luck with your project!
Quote from: Whit on September 13, 2017, 11:46:54 AM
Ijlal: In reply to the question do I need free spool on a trolling reel. The answer is yes, and for more reasons than are cited.
If you just want the reel to let out line as you are placing the bait/lure in the moat wash, ensuring the spool bearings work is mandatory. This has been covered.
However that leaves two other bearings in question: on in each of the sideplates.
If you have a rusty or frozen bearing in the sideplates this could have a negative effect on the ability of the reel to actually fight the fish under pressure, in that the ability of the pinion to float freely within the bearings is helpful to optimize the drag and thrust portion of the reel. In fact the reel was designed that way. There's a reason you got such a big reel, and its not to fight tiddlers! Otherwise you have a "dollar waiting on a dime".
IMO, I would also ensure the sideplate bearings work excellently. Pennparts or Boca Bearings have the right sizes.
Good luck with your project!
Thank you for your input. I do understand these things. It's not easy to order replacement parts from where I live, so I wouldn't mind sacrificing some freespool for longevity of the bearings. While letting out a lure, the water drag is enough to get the spool revolving - Greasing the spool bearings does not literally jam the spool. For small, light lures such as the 'Li'l Stubby', I do have smaller reels with great freespool. The bearings on my reel are not exactly rusted or jammed, so I'll be okay for some time, now that I have serviced the reel.
Cheers!
Quote from: Robert Janssen on September 11, 2017, 08:07:46 AM
Okay, a couple of things:
Yes, the cup can be misaligned, and can be corrected. Pics, description and links to follow.
BUT, you said
QuoteIt goes all the way back when the right sideplate is taken off, but as soon as I put it back, the lever begins to have the same problem again..
...so that might change things a bit. We need to make certain the origin of this problem.
With the right sideplate in its entirety removed from the reel and in your hand, and the cam assembly with its bearing and all, still in place, try the lever. Keep pressure on the bearing with your finger or thumb. That way you can both see and feel what is happening.
Keeping pressure on the bearing, slide the lever down towards freespool. At the instant that the lever goes past the freespool button, you should feel with your finger how the bearing suddenly shifts into the right side plate plate.
Right so far? If so, read no further.
But from what I understand from your post, at the instant the drag lever arrives at or just above the freespool button is when you feel the bearing shift. Correct?
Okay. IF SO, then:
The bronze cup holding the cam and bearing is as said, misoriented in the right side plate. No big deal, it happens. What you can do is either ignore it, or...
Look here. Look at those screws holding the cup in place. Sometimes there is one, sometimes two, whatever.
(http://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11644.0;attach=8001;image)
Loosen those screws a bit. And, with the same procedure, keeping pressure on the bearing, try the lever again. Now you can adjust the cup's position a few degrees, so that the cam's action matches that of the lever. (hint... seems to me that the cup would need to be rotated a few degrees clockwise).
And now, being careful not to budge things, clamp down those screws again. Try the lever. Feel right, everything works? Good-- now you know how it is supposed to be.
Now, here is the thing... you need to make a notch in the edge of the cup to match the screw heads position, so it stays right there. Scribe a line, use a sharpie, whatever... Use a mill or a Dremel to make the notches, it is up to you...
And now you know.
Other threads with similar subject:
www.alantani.com/index.php?topic=11644 and www.alantani.com/index.php?topic=5403
.
Robert, thank you for explaining in detail. I'll try to do as per your advice soon, and let you know how it turned out.
Have a great day!
Quote from: Robert Janssen on September 11, 2017, 08:07:46 AM
With the right sideplate in its entirety removed from the reel and in your hand, and the cam assembly with its bearing and all, still in place, try the lever. Keep pressure on the bearing with your finger or thumb. That way you can both see and feel what is happening.
Keeping pressure on the bearing, slide the lever down towards freespool. At the instant that the lever goes past the freespool button, you should feel with your finger how the bearing suddenly shifts into the right side plate plate.
Right so far? If so, read no further.
Okay, I checked just now... With the sideplate removed, the lever goes all the way to freespool and the bearing is pushed a little outwards (towards the spool side.) When I keep pressure on it with a finger, and slowly move the lever past the free button, it slides into the housing (away from the spool,) just as you said it should. You said, if it works this way, I should read no further, so now what must I do?
I can understand the bearing is for some reason not getting pushed outward once the sideplate is screwed on to the frame (with spool and all,) So what could be stopping it?
Any help appreciated.
PS. Another thing I noticed is the cam housing is a different type than the one in your photo. It is seems to be the cut type - Don't know how to phrase it properly, so attaching a photo.
It is also possible the cam is installed 180 degrees off. If you remove the main gear screws, and loosen the gear retainer screws (So you can rotate them out of the way), you can then remove the cam, cam follower, adjust screw, and pinion bearing. Make sure you remove the shield on the pinion, thoroughly clean it, and pack with grease (do this to all bearings). Try reinstalling the cam 180deg from where it is now, then test it's function. Your lever may move back to freespool. Also make sure, there are no burrs on the spool shaft, that it moves freely when compressed, inside the right spool bearing.
The sudden movement Dr. Janssen is talking about comes about when the cam pins, and thus cam assembly, drop into the freespool recess at the bottom of the cam ramp. Because total lever movement on these reels is less then 180deg, the cam must be properly oriented in order for the lever to be all the way back in the freespool position when in freespool.
I would refrain from moving the cam pocket itself to adjust the lever/cam position, simply because the retaining screws will not likely hold it in place, and the cut out portion will not line up correctly. It looks like it is installed correctly based on your picture.
Really, the whole thing about lever position shouldn't adversely affect the functionality of the reel. If the drag curve is off from factory specs, it is likely due to worn/compressed belleville washers, drag disc/plate, or water/salt intrusion under tye drag material. Reconditioning/replacing the components and/or shimming for wear to get the correct spacing will bring the drag curve back to factory specs if needed.
Loss of freespool really dictates where (upper drag setting) you can fish the reel at without damaging components. So it isn't the loss of the ability to have freespool functionality per say that is the problem, but rather it can be indicative of a spacing issue that may limit the max drag at strike w/o damaging things.
Not sure if that makes sense?
If you are getting freespool (even poor freespool), at an acceptable max drag at strike, have full travel if lever, and good max drag, and good overall functionality, just grease it up and fish it. You can always order new bearings, Bellevilles, ratchet plate, pawl, and drag components for a future service to bring everything back to like new functionality if desired though.
John
Thank you John!
I already cleaned and greased each and every part. The reel's working fine. I tested 30# of drag at strike with 6s freespool. You're right, I also feel the cam housing is installed correctly. If I remember correctly, I even tried reversing the cam by 180 degrees, but I'll try is once more just to be sure.
As for the bellevilles, they're not worn out. There is one problem though: Instead of one pair being thinner (p/n 18-50W,) as per schematic, all of them are the thicker (p/n 18-50TW) ones. No idea how that would affect the drag curve.
Ordering parts from Pakistan is not easy, as all of the online parts stores, including Scott's Bait and Tackle have their merchant accounts with only Paypal. While I can understand Paypal might have issues regarding issuing membership in Pakistan, it is not understandable why they have also disallowed direct payment using bank cards from Pakistan. I have no issues using Amazon Pay. Last time I ordered parts, I had to ask my brother in Finland to pay the bill for me.
Cheers!
Quote from: ijlal on September 14, 2017, 04:10:14 AM
Thank you John!
I already cleaned and greased each and every part. The reel's working fine. I tested 30# of drag at strike with 6s freespool. You're right, I also feel the cam housing is installed correctly. If I remember correctly, I even tried reversing the cam by 180 degrees, but I'll try is once more just to be sure.
As for the bellevilles, they're not worn out. There is one problem though: Instead of one pair being thinner (p/n 18-50W,) as per schematic, all of them are the thicker (p/n 18-50TW) ones. No idea how that would affect the drag curve.
Ordering parts from Pakistan is not easy, as all of the online parts stores, including Scott's Bait and Tackle have their merchant accounts with only Paypal. While I can understand Paypal might have issues regarding issuing membership in Pakistan, it is not understandable why they have also disallowed direct payment using bank cards from Pakistan. I have no issues using Amazon Pay. Last time I ordered parts, I had to ask my brother in Finland to pay the bill for me.
Cheers!
Sounds like you are in good shape then. As far as the Bellevilles go, having all thick will decrease preset needed to hit a given drag setting, result in a steeper drag curve, and might cause a decrease in freespool at a given setting. Conversely as the Bellevilles slowly lose their original shape (We are talking on the order of thousands of an inch in overall stack height), the reel will require more preset, have a steeper curve and may affect the max effective drag at strike setting. You can not tell hiw much compression loss you have by just looking at them, you need new Bellevilles, and compare overall measurements. Truth is, even new ones have variance. I just like playing with shining and Belleville config/height on these old internationals to try to get a nice smoith/linear drag curve with a good max drag at strike setting w/o affecting freespool. It brings the reel up to its true potential. Older non-tuned reels typically suffer from spacing and Belleville-related performance issues. Though I may be splitting hairs here. They are great reels, and have built in wiggle room here. They will perform well regardless of the finer tuning, and will continue working long after others experience real issues.
You may consider posting a request here, to gave a member help serve as your parts go between? I might be inclined to stock up on everything I think so might need at once, if it proves to be so problematic.
We are spoiled here.
Enjoy your reel!
I look forward to seeing photos of your catches.
John
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 14, 2017, 04:23:22 AM
Quote from: ijlal on September 14, 2017, 04:10:14 AM
Thank you John!
I already cleaned and greased each and every part. The reel's working fine. I tested 30# of drag at strike with 6s freespool. You're right, I also feel the cam housing is installed correctly. If I remember correctly, I even tried reversing the cam by 180 degrees, but I'll try is once more just to be sure.
As for the bellevilles, they're not worn out. There is one problem though: Instead of one pair being thinner (p/n 18-50W,) as per schematic, all of them are the thicker (p/n 18-50TW) ones. No idea how that would affect the drag curve.
Ordering parts from Pakistan is not easy, as all of the online parts stores, including Scott's Bait and Tackle have their merchant accounts with only Paypal. While I can understand Paypal might have issues regarding issuing membership in Pakistan, it is not understandable why they have also disallowed direct payment using bank cards from Pakistan. I have no issues using Amazon Pay. Last time I ordered parts, I had to ask my brother in Finland to pay the bill for me.
Cheers!
Sounds like you are in good shape then. As far as the Bellevilles go, having all thick will decrease preset needed to hit a given drag setting, result in a steeper drag curve, and might cause a decrease in freespool at a given setting. Conversely as the Bellevilles slowly lose their original shape (We are talking on the order of thousands of an inch in overall stack height), the reel will require more preset, have a steeper curve and may affect the max effective drag at strike setting. You can not tell hiw much compression loss you have by just looking at them, you need new Bellevilles, and compare overall measurements. Truth is, even new ones have variance. I just like playing with shining and Belleville config/height on these old internationals to try to get a nice smoith/linear drag curve with a good max drag at strike setting w/o affecting freespool. It brings the reel up to its true potential. Older non-tuned reels typically suffer from spacing and Belleville-related performance issues. Though I may be splitting hairs here. They are great reels, and have built in wiggle room here. They will perform well regardless of the finer tuning, and will continue working long after others experience real issues.
You may consider posting a request here, to gave a member help serve as your parts go between? I might be inclined to stock up on everything I think so might need at once, if it proves to be so problematic.
We are spoiled here.
Enjoy your reel!
I look forward to seeing photos of your catches.
John
John,
Thank you once again. I took a thorough look inside. There is really no issue with the reel except that someone in the assembly line either cut the notch in the housing at the wrong place or drilled the hole for the retaining screw a bit off. I can correct the problem but for now I'll leave it as is, as I do not have the necessary tools to do the work properly.
When you say you are spoiled, rest assured I am spoiled too otherwise I probably won't be on this forum. I do whatever I can inside my very limited resources, and this forum is a source of reference for me to learn new techniques from.
I'll probably not be using this reel till late October or November, and shall update you in case I catch a marlin or some Ahis.
Ijlal