I keep hearing about this tungsten Disulfide. It might be great stuff, it might be hype. I know several of you are using the TSI products with good results so for. I would be interested to hear some opinions on this tungsten disulfide as well. It seems that you can mix the powder with any oil or grease and it will slowly bond to the base metal. Thats not the best way to bond the tungsten but it's the easiest. You can also mix the tungsten powder with alcohol to form a paste and then buff the paste onto the base metal. That might be a great way to buff a spool shaft? hmmm?
anyway, here is the article and promotion from reelschematic thats pushing this stuff.
Product Description
Tungsten Disulfide Nano-Lubricant (99.9% Pure)
AS SEEN ON ESPN'S "THE OUTDOOR LINE"
Pur-Tungsten "will" extend the life of your reels! This product has been used in Defense and Aerospace applications since 1962 and now it is finally available for your use!
Rated by scientists as the most lubricious material on the planet, offering a dry lubricity that no other substance can match! It was orginally developed for NASA by Stanford Univeristy, and now a Formula 3000 Racing Team owes its success to using Tungsten Disulfide, now you can use the same technology on your fishing reels!
Have you been searching for the best lubricant on the market, or better yet, the best known to science? This is it! Tungsten Disulfide is one of the secrets of the professionals, and now it can be yours too! This is the same ingredient that is used in our "Super Slick" now available to you in pure 99.9% powder or spray can. Search for yourself, you will not find a better lubricant anywhere on the planet! Guaranteed!
Available in three different sizes:
2oz. - Great for mixing with your own grease or oils.
4oz. - Perfect for the repair shop or in home to create your own Super Lubricants!
13oz. Spray Can - offers a convenient way to apply a thin film of Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) coating on any surface as well as in hard to reach places.
Between 1962 and late 1973, 10 robotic explorers named Mariner were built by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory to investigate Earth's closest neighbors: Venus, Mars and Mercury. Besides revealing much about the planets, the Mariners proved that interplanetary flight and scientific exploration was possible using small, low-cost spacecraft that could be designed in a short amount of time and stay on the job severalyears. During the later missions some of that durability was due to a new lubricant called tungsten disulfide, developed for NASA by Stanford University. Following this debut, tungsten disulfide (WS2) found its way into industrial applications, primarily in aerospace and defense applications.
In contact situations such as cutting tools, tungsten disulfide practically eliminates galling while improving chip evacuation and lubrication. This results in a much longer life for cutting tools, reduced lubricant temperatures, more efficient mold release, and improved service life for all treated parts.
But that's the obvious part. In racing, any legal and safe method that gives a split-second lead over the other drivers is highly desired. Top IRL, CART, NASCAR and NHRA teams have embraced tungsten disulfide for its friction-fighting characteristics in engines and drivetrains. Race teams have reported a 30% longer life in coated parts; gears and shafts that once made it 700 miles are good to 2,000. Not only will the compound not damage the substrate (it is noncorrosive and no heat is required for curing), but tungsten disulfide is inert, nontoxic, and environmentally friendly. The coating takes on the characteristics of the base material. It won't chip, flake or peel — important to anyone who designs and builds precision components. US Army Airforce is considering using WS2 to extend gearbox life in the event of small arms damage to helicopter lubrication systems.
.... and now it has entered the sportfishing industry with a storm!
Applications
Marine Motors and Parts
Bearings
Automotive Parts
Precision Gears
Plastic Molds
Aerospace and Defense Components
Robotics
Firearms
Cutting Tools, Blades
Bullets and Ammunition Parts
...it can be used on anything that you grease or oil, and will give you a superior lubrication like you've never seen before!
Professional Shooters Use It For Coating Bullets
http://www.6mmbr.com/bulletcoating.html
Tungsten disulfide adheres to a substrate surface through a molecular/mechanical interlock and takes on the characteristic of the substrate regardless of whether the substrate is ferrous, non-ferrous, a composite, carbide or plastic. When applied to a substrate material, tungsten disulfide also forms a very thin layer due to the fact that it does not bond to itself. As a result, the dimensions and tolerances of treated parts are not compromised or appreciably affected when a substrate is treated with tungsten disulfide.
Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) is one of the most lubricous materials known to science. With Coefficient of Friction at 0.03, it offers excellent dry lubricity unmatched to any other substance. It can also be used in high temperature and high pressure applications. It offers temperature resistance from
-450 oF (-270oC) to 1200oF (650oC) in normal atmosphere and from -305oF (-188oC) to 2400oF
(1316oC) in Vacuum. Load bearing property of coated film is extremely high at 300,000 psi.
Since the powder offers one of the lowest Coefficient of Friction (Dynamic @ 0.03 & Static @ 0.07), the applications are unlimited and could be tried with every conceivable idea.
WS2 powder can be added to Oil/Lubricant/Liquid/Water/Plastic etc. to increase lubricity of mixture. WS2 can also be coated on a substrate by Spraying/Buffing/Tumbling.
Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) is dry/solid lubricant powder and is one of the most lubricious substance in world. WS2 offers excellant dry lubricity (COF: 0.03) unmatched to any other substance, including Graphite or Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2).
Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) can also be used in high temperature and high pressure applications. It offers temperature resistance from -450 deg F (-270º C) to 1200 deg F (650º C) in normal atmosphere and from -305 deg F (-188º C) to 2400º F (1316º C) in Vacuum. Load bearing ability of coated film is extremely high at 300,000 psi.
Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) can also be used instaed of Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2). See comparison of WS2 / MoS2
Since the powder offers one of the lowest Coefficient of Friction (Dynamic @ 0.03 & Static @ 0.07), the applications are unlimited and could be tried with every conceivable idea.
When material is made into nanoparticles, its reactivity increases. Smaller the particle size, higher the surface area. Nanoparticles have a very high surface area to volume ratio, due to this a higher percentage of atoms (in nanoparticles) can interact with other matter. Therefore Surface Area (measured in Square meters per gram) is most important unit of measure for a nano lubricant. Higher the surface area, higher the lubricity.
Comparison between Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2) & Tungsten Disulfide (WS2)
Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) is one of the most lubricous materials known to science. With Coefficient of Friction at 0.03, it offers excellent dry lubricity unmatched to any other substance. It can also be used in high temperature and high pressure applications. It offers temperature resistance from -450o F (-270o C) to 1200o F (650o C) in normal atmosphere and from -305o F (-188o C) to 2400o F (1316o C) in Vacuum. Load bearing property of coated film is extremely high at 300,000 psi.
Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) can be used instead of Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2) and Graphite in almost all applications, and even more. Molybdenum and Tungsten are from same chemical family. Tungsten is heavier and more stable. Molybdenum Disulfide (Also known as Moly Disulfide) till now has been extremely popular due to cheaper price, easier availability and strong and innovative marketing. Tungsten Disulfide is not new chemical and has been around as long as Moly, and is used extensively by NASA, military, aerospace and automotive industry.
Till few years ago, price was Tungsten Disulfide was almost 10 times that of Molybdenum Disulfide. But since then price of Molybdenum Disulfide has doubled every six months. Now the prices of both chemicals are within comparable range. Now, it makes more economic sense to use superior dry lubricant (Tungsten Disulfide) and improve the quality and competitiveness of final product.
Tungsten Disulfide offers excellent lubrication under extreme conditions of Load, Vacuum and Temperature. The properties below show that Tungsten Disulfide offers excellent thermal stability and oxidation resistance at higher temperatures. WS2 has thermal stability advantage of 93oC (200oF) over MoS2. Coefficient of Friction of WS2 actually reduces at higher loads.
i've been slow to change. i stuck with shimano drag grease for a long time. when i finally switched over to cal's drag grease, i wished that i had switched over sooner. then i switched from corrosion x to xtreme reel +. that was a mistake. i now use tsi 301 and corrosion x and that seems to be working. been playing around with the inox products. they're pretty nice. lots of great products out there. alan
Haven't tried it yet - but it is on my shopping list. I woul probably try the powder mixed with 2-4-C (which I like :)). I am also using the 2-4-C marine grease for cf drags - early days yet but seems as good as Cal's at a fraction of the price :). I also want to experiment with the powder and TSI321 - now that could really be interesting. Any chemists out there I would like to know if there are any pit falls to mixing these different lubricants? It should work on ceramic bearings I guess - unless it only bonds to metals :-\
HELLO, HAS ANY ONE TRYED THE TUNGSTEN DISULFIDE ON DRAG WASHER DRY I AM PLAYING WITH IT ON MY NEW PENN REEL I WENR OUT FISHING JUST ONT TIME SO FAR SO GOOD.I PIT IT ON MY DRAG WASHER DRY IT SEEM TO MAKE IT SMOOTHER THEN JUST DRY DRAG WASHER. BUT I NEED TO SPEND MORE TIME FISHING TO SEE HOW LONG IT WILL LAST.AND IF TAKE AWAY SOME DRAG POUNDS.LET ME KNOW IF ANY ONE HAS TRYED THIS.THE REEL DOCTOR.
I'm looking into it but Nano size is supposed to be better and that is crazy expensive.
Quote from: Slazmo on June 26, 2015, 11:50:42 AM
Quote from: Bryan Young on June 25, 2015, 03:13:13 PM
I'm looking into it but Nano size is supposed to be better and that is crazy expensive.
Yeh thats the stuff I have from the US. .6 micron or something like that... Works out like graphite powder but is just that much much much much much much much much much much more...
Anyhow mixed with grease or oils is how I use it. Dry, hmm not so much confidence in dry lubes...
I'm glad you mentioned "Graphite". While I was reading the comments on this post I was wondering if Graphite would work as well. I have only herd of Molly coated bullets and there use....the tungsten disulfide is not a product I am familiar with. I can see possibly how this may play a part in dry lube but not how mixing it with wet lube would work specifically,unless the microns help to give surfaces less drag in conjunction with the oil or grease. I do know that Graphite in itself does do just that alone without the addition of oils or grease. Usually Graphite is better the wet lube.
Quote from: Slazmo on June 28, 2015, 01:28:40 PM
Graphite could but I wouldnt. great as a simple dry lubricant however doesnt have that adhesion property IMHO.
With the Tungsten Disulphide* (TD), its known to work into surfaces which got me sold very quickly and even when in suspension in a emulsion state in oil the nano particles of this stuff are worked into all the wear surfaces.
With Bullets they work this TD into them but putting this stuff and the bullets into a tumbler. Other uses are with die's where they spray TD forcefully onto the mating faces like sand blasting and this sticks like the proverbial to a blanket.
I am quiet sold on this stuff and use it quiet a lot with Inox MX3 now in high speed bearings like rotor and handle bearings with 2-4-C grease, and even work it into some greases on gears and notice that it quietens down some noisy gears quiet quickly or even after a 20 minute spin in front of the idiot box while watching the current mad word unfold in front of me on the news...
So the general idea is to use this along with grease or oil, not as intended in the article that Pro Reel posted, of course these are two completely different intended purposes. I'm not sure that I'm sold on the idea, but if it is working for you I can understand your liking it. I'm interested in knowing the long term in the future.
Quote from: Reel 224 on June 28, 2015, 03:28:54 PM
Quote from: Slazmo on June 28, 2015, 01:28:40 PM
Graphite could but I wouldnt. great as a simple dry lubricant however doesnt have that adhesion property IMHO.
With the Tungsten Disulphide* (TD), its known to work into surfaces which got me sold very quickly and even when in suspension in a emulsion state in oil the nano particles of this stuff are worked into all the wear surfaces.
With Bullets they work this TD into them but putting this stuff and the bullets into a tumbler. Other uses are with die's where they spray TD forcefully onto the mating faces like sand blasting and this sticks like the proverbial to a blanket.
I am quiet sold on this stuff and use it quiet a lot with Inox MX3 now in high speed bearings like rotor and handle bearings with 2-4-C grease, and even work it into some greases on gears and notice that it quietens down some noisy gears quiet quickly or even after a 20 minute spin in front of the idiot box while watching the current mad word unfold in front of me on the news...
So the general idea is to use this along with grease or oil, not as intended in the article that Pro Reel posted, of course these are two completely different intended purposes. I'm not sure that I'm sold on the idea, but if it is working for you I can understand your liking it. I'm interested in knowing the long term in the future.
I'm with you on, especially for salt water applications. I want to try it but it would be an expensive experiment especially since TSI is working so well for me and many others.
Quote from: Slazmo on June 28, 2015, 11:51:35 PM
Quote from: Reel 224 on June 28, 2015, 03:28:54 PMSo the general idea is to use this along with grease or oil, not as intended in the article that Pro Reel posted, of course these are two completely different intended purposes. I'm not sure that I'm sold on the idea, but if it is working for you I can understand your liking it. I'm interested in knowing the long term in the future.
yeh in sense its upto you how you like to use it. I personally dont have a problem with it used dry, however I am just not willing to do so in ZZ shielded bearings. If these bearings were 2RS sealed I would add a certain amount to each and close them up and Hasta la vista... I have done enough background reading and checks on the stuffs integrity as a lubricant to actually go out and buy and use it in other peoples reels without as much as a care in the world for the risks that not having used it for long may bring... I trust it however I use it as a wet solution rather than exclusively dry - as a dry lube the parts would have to be tumbled and or encapsulated... I could definably run a TD tumbled pinion gear or possibly think about running a TD filled gear box on a spinning reel - but dont have enough of the stuff to dare to try!
Quote from: Bryan Young on June 28, 2015, 03:32:52 PMI'm with you on, especially for salt water applications. I want to try it but it would be an expensive experiment especially since TSI is working so well for me and many others.
Try it - you wont regret it!
The primary concern for me is there are many applications mentioned, but nothing has been done with fishing reels at any extent to show it's proven ability to perform in that application. You have started something and hopefully it shows good results over a proven period of time and equal use. I am not discounting your experience with this product, I am saying lets see the results after a number of applications and usages in heavy conditions, say two complete seasons.
Next questions; price and availability of the Tungsten Disulfide?
Quote from: Slazmo on June 29, 2015, 02:20:24 AM
Within regards to proving, its been done in quiet a lot of applications outside of fishing alone. Some quiet more severe, the bearing solution is only one that I trust so far and the grease mix is also something that I think works very well.
Availability very readily accessible - online (for everyone else) or in your case possibly in store in the US of A.
Ill look for it and I have a reel that I am assembling as soon as I receive the parts, I will try it on that reel since its purpose will be for heaver use. Your recommendations are to mix it with the oil and grease applications? In other words, on the gears I will mix the Tungsten Disulfide with grease and with the spool bearings I will mix the TD with the oil. Correct?
Quote from: Slazmo on June 30, 2015, 12:34:17 PM
Yes exactly.
hard to give accurate measurements but I mix a small amount of TD with the grease in a sense as to not overburden the grease or drastically change its consistency.
With adding it to oil I use a 15 ml dropper and I add possibly 1/8th or 1/16th of a small tea spoon to the oil and add either a stainless steel nut or a ball bearing to act as a agitator.
less seems to be more with TD. Hope it helps.
I looked on Brownells sit and could only find Molybdenum dry lube, Ill have to Google it to find a distributor. Where are you getting your supply from? The reason I am asking this is simply because I try to stick to Known suppliers, I'm not big on using every Tom, Dick or Harry. I just don't trust the internet that much.
As far as mixing I have a pretty good idea on quantity/ratio combinations. It's going to be interesting for me to try this out on the older reel I am planing to use for this experiment, I'm actually getting psyched on it.
from what I have read thus far, the ratio is 1% to 15% of weight. Therefore, if you have 1 lb of grease, you would add 0.01 lb to 0.15 lb of TD.
Quote from: Bryan Young on June 30, 2015, 02:52:02 PM
from what I have read thus far, the ratio is 1% to 15% of weight. Therefore, if you have 1 lb of grease, you would add 0.01 lb to 0.15 lb of TD.
Thanks Bryan Ill just have to break it down to a lesser amount for my use,just to service one reel as a experiment to see how it will work. I don't own enough reels to make a comparison between say SS gears and brass gears to see how it works for quieting the SS gears. only thing I can do is a stress test and smoothness, maybe a wear test.....but that will take some time.
Joe
Well I finally got around to looking up the cost :o Anywhere in the neighborhood of $79.00 for 1/2 lb to $90.00 for 99grams. That leaves me out of the picture for trying this out. ::) :-[ :(
Quote from: Slazmo on July 02, 2015, 09:32:24 PM
I'll have to get back to you and the mob i sourced it from. Certainly didn't pay the price you've seen otherwise i wouldn't be using it myself ha ha.
when I'm on my laptop ill get t he details for you - remind me somehow.
That would certainly be appreciated since my research came up with ridiculous #s Any leads to better pricing will help.
Ditto that. Thanks for the possible source.
Back with some news, I found a source for the Tungsten Disulfide at Amazon....For $11.95 1oz bottle. I have mixed it with 321 and applied it with a Syringe directly to the Spool bushings in my Surfmaster 200. I'm not totally convinced that the mix has made any difference in the spools free spin time at all. I will have to see how the reel casts with a full load of line and some weight, so far I do not believe there is any significant difference.
Something else that I have noticed about the characteristic of TD and oil, the TD does not stay suspended in the oil unless it is re-agitated. So my theory is if the reel is idle for any length of time the TD can separate from the oil causing it to be none effective.
TD=Tungsten Disulfide:
Joe
I found a website that sells Tungsten Disulfide powder as well as aerosol cans:
http://www.lowerfriction.com/product-page.php?categoryID=23 (http://www.lowerfriction.com/product-page.php?categoryID=23)
On their page regarding the powder, this is what it said about application:
Quote
Two established ways the WS2 powder can be used are:
1) Mixing the WS2 powder with wet lubricants (such as oil, grease & other synthetic lubricants):
The powder can be mixed 1wt% to 15wt% (as required) with grease or oil. This will enhance lubricity of the mixture and also improves High Temperature and Extreme Pressure properties of mixture. During the use, WS2 in the mixture will get coated on mating/moving parts, which in turn reduces friction and improves lubricity and load bearing ability for much longer cycles.
2) Coating the WS2 powder on a substrate requiring (dry) lubricity:
The powder can be coated by spraying (at 120 psi) the substrate with dry (& cool) pneumatic air. It does not require any binders and spraying can be done at normal room temperature. Coated film will be 0.5 micron thick. In an alternative application method, the powder can also be mixed with Isopropyl alcohol and this paste could be buffed to the substrate. The coating applications are already established in many areas such as Automotive parts, Racing Car Engine and other parts, Aerospace parts, Bearings (Linear, Ball, Roller etc), Shafts, Marine parts, Cutting Tools, Blades, Slitters, Knives, Mold release, Precision Gears, Valve components, Pistons, Chains, Machinery components and many other areas.
Quote from: SteveL on August 24, 2015, 05:04:40 PM
I found a website that sells Tungsten Disulfide powder as well as aerosol cans:
http://www.lowerfriction.com/product-page.php?categoryID=23 (http://www.lowerfriction.com/product-page.php?categoryID=23)
On their page regarding the powder, this is what it said about application:
Quote
Two established ways the WS2 powder can be used are:
1) Mixing the WS2 powder with wet lubricants (such as oil, grease & other synthetic lubricants):
The powder can be mixed 1wt% to 15wt% (as required) with grease or oil. This will enhance lubricity of the mixture and also improves High Temperature and Extreme Pressure properties of mixture. During the use, WS2 in the mixture will get coated on mating/moving parts, which in turn reduces friction and improves lubricity and load bearing ability for much longer cycles.
2) Coating the WS2 powder on a substrate requiring (dry) lubricity:
The powder can be coated by spraying (at 120 psi) the substrate with dry (& cool) pneumatic air. It does not require any binders and spraying can be done at normal room temperature. Coated film will be 0.5 micron thick. In an alternative application method, the powder can also be mixed with Isopropyl alcohol and this paste could be buffed to the substrate. The coating applications are already established in many areas such as Automotive parts, Racing Car Engine and other parts, Aerospace parts, Bearings (Linear, Ball, Roller etc), Shafts, Marine parts, Cutting Tools, Blades, Slitters, Knives, Mold release, Precision Gears, Valve components, Pistons, Chains, Machinery components and many other areas.
I did follow those instructions as required for oil, in a smaller quantity but using there mixing formula. My feelings thus far are the same. I see no significant change in the free spool rotation time.
Tungsten Disulfide does not increase the lubricity of the oil it increases the shear strength of the oil film. It is used mostly in high load applications to keep two pieces of metal separated under high load & high shear situations.
Quote from: RowdyW on August 24, 2015, 06:35:41 PM
Tungsten Disulfide does not increase the lubricity of the oil it increases the shear strength of the oil film. It is used mostly in high load applications to keep two pieces of metal separated under high load & high shear situations.
That being the case, then I suppose it doesn't matter as far as free spool is concerned but originally it was presented to help make things slip better and faster or longer as in rotation of the spool, no big deal on my part, it was an $12.00 experiment. I assume it will help with the wear factor.
Joe
Joe, a good application would be to mix it with marine grease for use on gears & bushings. Gears in a reel at times work at extreme pressure. RUDY
Quote from: RowdyW on August 25, 2015, 06:11:13 AM
Joe, a good application would be to mix it with marine grease for use on gears & bushings. Gears in a reel at times work at extreme pressure. RUDY
I can do that with the new SS gear set that I have coming from Pro Chalange Alan C. That may also quiet them, as I have heard that the SS gears are a bit noisy. Thanks for the tip Rudy.
Joe
Joe, at least you will have a use for that $11.95 supply of TS & it won't go to waste. Mix some up & put it in a marked container and it should last you a long time. As far as the advise to use sparingly I would give it a good coating as any excess will squezze out & not cause any problem. RUDY
Quote from: RowdyW on August 25, 2015, 02:02:00 PM
Joe, at least you will have a use for that $11.95 supply of TS & it won't go to waste. Mix some up & put it in a marked container and it should last you a long time. As far as the advise to use sparingly I would give it a good coating as any excess will squezze out & not cause any problem. RUDY
Appreciated.
Joe
Attached is a document from the U.S. Interior department which discusses the potential for Molybdenum Disulfide, Tungsten Disulfide and Graphite use in preventing the attachment of zebra and quagga mussels from attaching to submerged infrastructure. While mussels are definitely a concern where I fish I was primarily interested in understanding the properties of these compounds as related to lubricants for tackle. I don't pretend to understand all of the science or terminology but a couple of things were of interest and I thought I'd share it with you all and see what you made of it. I've highlighted sections I thought most pertinent to this discussion so you all don't have to read all 14 pages (unless you're a night owl like me). One section talks about how the coefficient of friction is affected by moisture. With graphite friction actually decreases with moisture while the opposite is true of moly and tungsten. These tests were on the compounds alone without any additives. Based on this it may be necessary to mix moly or tungsten disulfide with a grease or oil to isolate it from moisture and minimize friction. What do you all think?
Mike
Very interesting read and as I read it, using Tungsten Disulfide is very effective in reducing friction under high load conditions in a stand alone application however after reading on it seams as you stated that it would be better suited as an additive to Oil or Grease to prevent delusion from water, which would effect it's stability under pressure.
Since those are the circumstances under which the TSD will be used in the application of Fishing Reel maintenance it seams best served to mix portions of Tsd with those materials..ie Grease and Oil. Finding the right mixing ratio would require further testing by a competent engineering testing lab for best results.
Joe
Please bear in mind that the document I referenced originated from within the U.S. government and therefore subject to multiple levels of review and editing by multiple managers who, as a prerequisite for management, have had their brains sucked out. Therefore, the document as released to the public may have absolutely nothing in common with the original. Trust me, I know whereof I speak. :P