In May I installed a pond fountain with 115VAC LED color changing lights, all was working well until last month they got hit by lightning.The transformer/timer and lights both have electronics in them. Scott Aerator graciously covered it under warranty. I installed the new set all was well, and believe it or not the next night the new set got struck again.I contacted Scott Aerator again (great company), and they sent me another set. I purchased an inline surge protector while waiting on the new set. Before I install the 3rd light kit ,I was wondering if a grounding rod near the power outlet pole would help? In the future I will unplug everything next time I get news of any lightning .The fountain is 230VAC, and hasn't been affected at the same power pole.Has anyone else had anything get struck so often?
Good Morning, James —-
Hopefully, Mike (PacRat) on our site will check in on this.
Mike is a lightning Protection professional. He and his company travel throughout the US to provide lightning protection and solutions for large firms to protect their ground operations. Some of the largest and most well-known corporations use their services.
I would imagine that you just need 2 or 3 taller lightning towers that are well grounded around the pond. But mine is an amateur's opinion —- Mike will have advice and solutions that will work.
You just can't rely on removing the lightning attractors when weather threatens — or unplugging them. They will still attract lightning on your pond — and may not fry the electronics — but will damage the hardware.
It should be safe and solidly grounded all of the time with no work on your part.
When addressing electrical and lightning issues that could cause at the very least some serious damage, and at the worst injury or death — I personally would only trust a pro like Mike — not a bunch of internet "expert" opinions.
I am sure you can get a lot of information on the internet —- but Mike is a good friend like you are —- and I am confident he can either advise, help, or point you in the right direction.
He is a solid guy.
Best, Fred
Have you thought about a Faraday Cage?
Yep Fred, Mike is a straight shooter! Alan,I will look into that.I remember Faraday cages from ESD training at work.
Is the lightning hitting the Fountain or the Control Box sticking up on the bank ?
Fountains are Great Lightning Rods . Almost a s good as Fishing Rods out on the Lake in a Boat when there is a Thunder Storm .
Not sure Henry but a buddie of mine also thinks it may be striking the spout then the lights then onto the transformer.
Both times it took out everything was fried according to Scott Aerator,I am thankful the pump is fine that would be a chore to ship back.
We had to install suppression modules on our system cabling when running cable between buildings. Most strongly recommend direct earth grounding within a short distance of the suppression device...like 3 feet.
There's no way to eliminate all risk when you're talking millions of amps/second, but suppression devices will at least open the circuit within a few milliseconds of overcurrent and divert it to ground.
Put a game camera out there to get a picture of it when it happens again.
I can't respond in detail right now. Send me some details like voltages and transformer type. Lightning does not need to strike your equipment directly to destroy it. Proper surge prevention and grounding should solve your problem. Stand by for more details.
-Mike
Once you determine which direction the Zap is going you could put a 1 Ton Diode inline I guess . ;D
So much for the Lightning Never Strikes Twice in the Same Place saying huh ?
Quote from: Wompus Cat on September 10, 2022, 12:25:04 AMSo much for the Lightning Never Strikes Twice in the Same Place saying huh ?
How close is "the same place"? I had lightning strike a tree 20' in front of the house and a couple of years later strike a tree 10' behind the house (same house). I'm thinkin' within 50'-60' is basically the same place. :o Had lightning strike my house, too, a different house, though. I saw it happen from 4 blocks away. That was crazy weird! By the time I got to the house the fire department was already there tearing off wood shakes. Never did find out who called them. ???
Mike,
The lights are controlled by a 115VAC step down transformer/timer, the light fixtures(2-EA)require 12VAC(9W) each.
Lightning loves to strike twice. A lightning event is a competition with lots of variables but mainly topography and conductivity are main influencers.
When I first started in the industry, our main clientele were telecoms and tower sites. These towers get hammered repeatedly. I once worked with a tower crew in Florida who stacked a 1400' television tower. Some of the crew lived in 5th wheel trailers at the tower base. One day they all went to town and when they returned to the tower they counted 11 direct lightning strikes before making the decision to go back to town and get hotel rooms for the night. Many of my customers will tell me that they've had outages in almost every storm and that we are their last hope. I once returned to that 1400' tower (WBBH Fort Myers). This was many years after the installation of our system so I was just paying a social call. The engineer told me they only had one shutdown and that they knew it came in on an unprotected phone line.
-Mike
James,
I just went back and took a closer look at your photo. I don't believe you are taking direct strikes. More likely, you are suffering from secondary effects from close proximity strikes.
Most of us relate to lightning by what we see in the sky but a very similar phenomena is occurring in the earth (but mostly near the surface). This is where grounding and surge suppression are critical. I want to go back and see your original posts from when you first installed this.
Where are your damaged components located (land or pond)?
Is the pump out there in the pond? How is it anchored in place?
-Mike
https://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=112127;image
I was looking at your posts from May. Is this your current configuration? I'm assuming that beige box on the right front of the post is where the damage is occurring.
Yes Mike, that beige box is the transformer/timer, then it goes through a 200ft cable(115VAC) to the fountain float where the RGB LED lights are mounted.The 2 light fixtures also have electronics in them,Scott Aerator stated in both instances everything was fried when tested.The 230VAC fountain pump has remained unscathed. The pump is anchored with 2 concrete blocks.
I worked at Robins AFB for 39 years in Electronics,the Avionics center consisted of 2 large metal buildings like 1000ft long each-2 stories. One had been a prop shop built in the 40s.A few years before I retired lightning poles were installed near the buildings,I am sure Mike is familiar.The smaller metal building my engineering office was in had an array of smaller poles on top of it all grounded together.I have no idea the correct nomenclature...
Quote from: jgp12000 on September 11, 2022, 12:32:44 PMlightning poles were installed near the buildings,I am sure Mike is familiar. The smaller metal building my engineering office was in had an array of smaller poles on top of it all grounded together.
The first description sounds like what the military likes to use (NASA too). These are a type of large Faraday Cage but they are also referred to as 'catenaries'. A simple system would be four telephone poles with a lightning rod on each pole and the poles are connected with heavy copper cable strung between them and tied to ground rods. The military uses these for explosives storage and NASA uses them for launch complex protection.
The second system you describe sounds like a Franklin System (also known as 'lightning rods' or 'air-terminals'). These go all the way back to Ben Franklin and work very well for protecting masonry and structures but not so well at protecting the electrical systems inside.
Both the Faraday/Catenary and the Franklin Air-terminals are considered 'collection systems'. They are basically saying, "Hit me here." Lightning rods can be self protecting in weaker electrostatic fields but as the field intensifies, the physics reverse and the point of the rod triggers and collects the strike. This was perfect for Franklin because he was protecting brick chimneys. Directing the lightning current over the surface of the masonry rather than through it saved the chimneys from structural damage. During a lightning discharge, any moisture in the masonry quickly expands as steam and will cause blow-outs. Trees explode because the sap boils.
Fast-forward to modern times and EVERYTHING is electrified and automated. Close proximity lightning strikes will play havoc with any electric circuit, even without a direct termination (lightning Strike). The founder of the company I work for was from NASA. He witnessed lightning strikes to the launch pads and was convinced that there was a better way to deal with lightning. He founded Lightning Elimination Associates and developed the Dissipation Array System. He met nothing but resistance from the government, NASA, and most of the scientific community. But our clients disagreed. They were telling us that they had tried everything available and that we were their last hope. After 50 years these Dissipation Array Systems have finally been recognized by the scientific community and are generically know as 'charge transfer systems'. We're now called Lightning Eliminators and Consultants. As far as we know, we are the only company that guaranties no lightning strikes. Once you get rid of the lightning strikes, everything works better and lasts longer. When I was younger, I did a lot of towers and the customer engineer would always ask me what our array was going to do to his signal. At the end of the install it was typical hear that the client now has the best signal ever.
Don't worry James...you don't need an array. I would suggest establishing a good earth ground point at your power center near the pond and a good, solid surge suppressor (or two). Depending on your budget; it might be a good idea to add a water-proof electrical enclosure at the post. This serves several purposes. It will give protection from the elements (water and U/V), it will also have a good Faraday effect and will shield your equipment from most of the electrostatic fluctuation, and it will serve as a good single point ground. You will want this enclosure boned directly to the ground rod and all the equipment inside should also be grounded to the enclosure. A ground bus inside the enclosure is best.
A couple more details. All the components in your timer/controller have a spec that's known as MTBF (mean time before failure). Many lightning events over time may not kill your equipment but it will weaken and degrade the components. Eventually, that one lightning event will push it over the edge and kill it.
Also, any SPDs (surge prevention devices) that you install should have a direct path to ground. The shortest and most direct path is preferable. This is to keep reaction times as short as possible (small portions of a cycle). Also, many electricians will want to coil up excess conductors rather than cut them to length. Don't do this. Also avoid any parallel routing if possible. They to maintain 4" minimum for parallel routing of 'protected' and 'unprotected' lines. This can be difficult in crowded enclosures.
I can't offer a suggestion for an SPD at the moment. I'll ask some of my colleagues during the week. We don't manufacture these anymore as the entire market has gone to imports. You might try looking into these guys: https://www.empshield.com/
I don't know anything about them but they do have a $25,000 equipment replacement warranty (be sure to read the fine print).
I hope this is helpful.
-Mike
That is very informative and you know your stuff!
I would love to know what Scott Aerator meant by 'everything was fried'. It's hard to know where to begin without specific information. I've seen a bit of lightning damage and it ranges from invisible to melted pipe and cable.
The reason I was asking about how the aerator was anchored was because I was wondering if any earthing was taking place in the pond but the aerator just floats out there.
I think you said you already installed a series SPD on the light controller. Is that the bulge I see in the light cable? If so, is that SPD grounded by some sort of dedicated ground or just through the lighting circuit?
Like a good gumbo...lightning protection has its holy trinity too. Grounding, surge protection, and strike prevention. Looking at your topography; I wouldn't be too concerned with strike prevention. Put your efforts and budget into grounding and surge prevention, but don't overlook your panel at the house. Unless you already have an SPD there, you are vulnerable to transient voltages from your buried line from the pond.
Mike —-
Thanks for helping James with this lightning/pond issue.
Few folks in the world could give him the accurate and deeply professional solutions that your experience offers.
Best, Fred
The talent on this site always seems to amaze me. Good work Mike. Our cabin which is at 6000+ feet has been struck twice. Lost a bunch of electronics. We try to remember to unplug everything when we leave. Dominick
Dominick,
The trouble with lightning protection is that it's sometimes more expensive than what you're trying to protect. With that said, there are some simple, economical approaches.
In your situation, you might not be suffering direct strikes but instead you may be getting 'surged' by your utility. Are you at the end of a distribution line?...or near a transformer?
Ground/earthing enhancements along with quality surge protectors may resolve most if not all of your issues. Also instead of unplugging everything, you can mark your panel and open all the non-essential breakers as part of your 'leaving routine'. Just make sure you leave the refrigerator running.
The very first thing I would invest in is grounding. At 6000' I would guess that most of your soil is DG which can have a very high resistivity. This is a resistance value of your soil and it will vary at depth and location. There is likely only one 10' ground rod at your panel or maybe just a waterpipe ground. Either can be very good...or real bad. You can't always judge soil by its looks. I recommend driving at least one additional rod. Without knowing your soil resistivity, deeper is better. But at 6000', you likely have some huge rocks underground. I would read the terrain to make a best estimate of a site that you can drive a deep rod. They come in 10' lengths and you can screw them together as you go. Drive them with an electric jackhammer with a ground rod bit. 20' - 30' should suffice. This ground rod should be connected to your existing ground rod and all connections need to be clean and tight.
Next put a surge suppressor at your panel and make certain that it makes a homerun to that ground rod. This should catch your surges from the utility. I would also recommend plug-in surge suppressors at the outlets especially where electronics have been damaged previously. Also make certain that these outlets have good grounds.
Here's a good thing to know. Almost all surge suppressor companies offer a damage/replacement warranty. Do some research to find out IF they stand behind their products and honor their warranties. These warranties are more of a sales gimmick but you can think of them as an 'insurance policy' should you experience damage.
That's about as economical as you can go but may cost more than your losses.
-Mike
Mike, thanks for that. The ground under the cabin is mostly boulders. I expect that most of rest of the ground is rock. I think the circuit breaker is the way to go. I'll figure out the refrigerator and the furnace. I don't think I need anything else running. Dominick
I have been looking at videos of wiring the grounding rod, and one said to bond the breaker box cabinet to the neutral bus bar, then run a wire to the ground rod is that correct? In the beginning of the install I had a 230VAC GFIC in the shop feeding the power pole at the pond and it would trip immediately when energized . I returned it, the new one tripped as well. So I had to use a regular 230VAC breaker to get the fountain to work. I read a shared neutral might cause this, could bonding the safety ground to the neutral buss bar solve the GFIC issue. I know neutral to ground already reads continuity , I have just never had to do this? I don't get the shared neutral statement, am I missing something (brain fart) ,if it's in parallel it's the same point electrically speaking. Any real live electricians out there? I attached photos of 230VAC breaker in the shop,230VAC and 115VAC breaker at the pond, and the outlets for the fountain and the lights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAD3r_nF6L4
Don't wanna be in a Boat in this .
Quote from: jgp12000 on September 15, 2022, 04:12:48 PMI have been looking at videos of wiring the grounding rod,and one said to bond the breaker box to the neutral bus bar, then run a wire it to the ground rod is that correct?
Hi James —-
Very well could be. I just don't know from this far away.
I do know that GFCI's are notorious for tripping any time any sort of change of fluctuation occurs.
Recently (last month) —- I installed a new converter in our cabover camper. GFCI kept tripping. After going into each receptacle, checking connections, continuity, and basically everything in every appliance —- I was advised to take the GFCI out of the circuit —- and everything works fine.
In your case, I would strongly advise getting a well recommended and competently experienced electrician to review and check out your system.
Can't be too confident otherwise.
Best, Fred
I know Henry knows, he just likes to josh around...a coworker of mine used to say "it's not rocket science,it's just electronics"
(https://alantani.com/gallery/37/14769-150922231226-371411658.jpeg)
Hey James, Is this a ground rod at the pond? If so, what's it connected to?
I watched the video and it's okay but there are quite a few things I would do differently. I was discussing your situation with a coworker today but we got distracted with work. I'm not good with code because I don't do electric services every day (I hire a sparky). I can and will give you some good advice once I get all the details sorted out.
The video looks okay for a common residential service panel BUT, because you are in FL and you have a big open space with electric circuits (underground and underwater)...you probably want to get better 'earth' than what he is making with the 10' ground rods x2. I'm not an electrician but I have done lots of ground testing and have seen empirical results and know what works best.
I believe residential code would like to see 25 ohms to earth on a ground rod. But if you don't achieve that on the first try, the code only requires you to drive a 2nd rod and walk away. Our customer's equipment requirements can be 5 ohms or lower so we have multiple strategies to help us achieve that.
I'll point out the stuff in the video just for everyone's knowledge. 1) Don't put two 10' ground rods 6' apart. This is a waste of copper and will not improve your resistance to earth. The rule of thumb is to always separate ground rods by 2.5 times their length. This is so that their 'spheres of influence' don't overlap acting like just one rod. Even better is to get rods that you can couple and drive 10 - 30 feet of rod. Drive 10' of rod then screw on another and drive that another 10'. This will significantly lower your resistance to earth which is important for maximum efficiency of your SPDs. 2) Those pipe grounding clamps in the video will rust and get loose. I replace these all the time because they have become loose and are too rusty to tighten. Use brass ground rod clamps (acorn clamps). We try not to burry these as the dirt and moisture get them cruddy. If it's exposed, you can keep an eye on it. 3) Electricians always want to make nice clean 90 degree bends in the ground wire. For lightning protection the standards (UL and NFPA) require 8" minimum radius for turns in ground conductors. You don't always have room for the large radius but always 'sweep' your bends whenever possible.
I noticed a Tripp Lite SPD on your outlet. Is that new?
I gotta go...Costco run ugh.
Mike
Yes Mike,that is the ground rod waiting to be hooked up,and the Tripp lite SPD is new.I just want to try to cover all bases before I install the 3rd new light kit. I am in GA in need of a Fla trip.
You can google it , but the short story is in the main panel neutrals and bonding grounds are ok .
Sub panels have to be separate .
https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/1706/is-it-ok-to-have-mixed-grounds-and-neutrals-on-bars-in-a-breaker-box
Quote from: jgp12000 on September 15, 2022, 09:23:34 PMI know Henry knows, he just likes to josh around...a coworker of mine used to say "it's not rocket science,it's just electronics"
Mike is in da bidness and makes his living from this sort of thing .
He would KNOW this stuff . I KNOW he KNOWS . I will stay out of this. This thread as most all threads HERE gets hi jacked and way off course and is what makes this place so much fun but this particular thread and when some one dies on us prob needs to stay on course . I am just sort of a General Practitioner ,trouble shooter and work off process of elimination based on actual significant facts . .
There are too many Ducks on this June Bug and too many Variables in that some unknowns as where is da motor /pump located (on Land 200 feet away?) ( under water at bottom of lake or submerged partially)
Where did the lightning hit (Water (should have dissipated with out harm to anything) Stand pipe in lake ? electrical panel on land or just get an aurora around the immediate area .
You can get eddy feed back from all kinds of stuff (consumers ) to cause GF circuits like Freds mobile cabin has that keeps tripping where a normal ol 3 prong plug with only 2 wire will work fine ....lol
I had a boat dock here that had a well pump off it for their sprinkler system but kept blowing switches and the installing company had the wires crossed on the box . ALKL KINDS of Stuff can be awry and Maybe Lightning will never get close to you again but ??????
Do you have a Swimming Pool company that actually installs complete systems or Water Well Company ,hell even a oil derreck guy nearby that could look at this for as they encounter these situation almost daily . Or Get Mike to drive out and get a hands on mesurement of all this.
Good Luck in your endeavors. :fish
Yep Henry I am kinda of leary of bonding neutral to ground unless I get further guidance,maybe ok, but until I learn more I am going to just run the safety ground to the ground pole.