I have gotten a little time to look at my hotrod project, now that I can't afford to have real hot rods out in the garage anymore (just sold my 70 Maverick, 72 Datsun Z, and one of the 87 Suzukis)
Originally, the Penn 155 that I'm starting with had a 5-155/13-155 gearset with a 3.0:1 gear ratio.
Just digging through the Mystic Parts catalog, I find that the following:
5-155/113-155 has been superceded by 5-209LC/13-209LC, moving to a 3.2:1 gear ratio.
Then, the 5-109/13-109 gear set claims to be 3.75:1 gear ratio. The 109 uses the same gear sleeve, so should work.
Are there any other gear sets that fit the 98-155 gear sleeve, with other gear ratios?
'C'mon dude, '70 Maverick and hot rod should not be used in the same sentence! I've seen Vegas with V8's that I wouldn't call hot rods either!
Someone doesn't remember the old H/MP classes...the only competitive cars were the Camaro and the Maverick, you ran a 6-cylinder to get the 600lb weight break.
Also this particular 70 mav sports a 300CI ford inline 6 out of a pickup truck, with sliced-and-diced LS1 cylinder heads on top. 10.1 seconds and 134.7MPH was pretty normal out at Beech Bend, 2440lbs with me in the seat.
Is that hot rod enough for ya?
I don't care how much lipstick you slather on that pig, it's not a hot rod! A 67 Mustang like my first car could make one... I drove it for 5 years and sold it for more than I bought it for. A Maverick? Not so much... no matter how much you attempt to pimp it out. Nice try though. In '73 when I got my Mustang my boss had a Maverick... it was embarrassing! One of my high scholol friend's boyfriend had a '68 Pontiac GTO convertible. I told her to not lose that guy! My FIL had a 57 Chevy Belair, a 59 Corvette, a 64 Impala SS, a 68 Camaro SS... I wish I had those!
Sure bud. You do you.
Any else got any thoughts on what gears could be fit onto a 98-155 gear sleeve?
I would not mind having this 2 door 70 Maverick
https://youtu.be/F43sRSbCF8c
4 door 71 model in this history clip, NOT
https://youtu.be/yWi32yDE_Ac
Compatibility with the gear sleeve just means that the hole in the main is the right size. To switch gear sets, you also have to have a matching center distance between the original and replacement main and pinion pair. Gear sets have to be a specific distance apart at the axis. There is a thread here somewhere where we get into the basics of gear design.
And then there is pinon to spool fit for dropping into to gear, spindle diameter to pinion hole size, sideplate clearance for the main gear, gear height, etc, etc.
These types of swaps across models are usually not viable.
-J
Of course the center distances have to match or I'll have to adjust them, that's not that big of a deal. Far less of a hassle than trying to refit a different sleeve, different drag stack, potentially different star wheel and handle and handle screw.
The stainless bridge plates should be ready for me to try pressing in the first few posts this week. I figured I'll make a dozen because it will take about the same amount of time to do 12 as it does 2.
I know that the 5-209/13-209 gears are the same center-to-center distance because I've fitted them and they work very nicely, but I have not ordered the 109 gears yet. The big question is is there enough room to cut the groove for the lifter, as it looks like the 109 gears do not have the groove for the engagement yoke.
There is a guy Fishgrain on Ebay-I think that's JG here? He's got two sets listed very attractively priced.
I think that there is some miscommunication here. You can't "adjust" the center distance by moving the gears closer together or farther apart and maintain the required center distance that the teeth require to mesh and perform properly. You have to shift one or both of the shafts that the gears rotate on.
Presuming that the new pinion correctly fits the spool lock and spindle shaft, and has the right slot height and diameter for the yoke, ( have you checked this?):
You can't move the pinion to the side -it has to go through the center of the spool spindle. So to achieve the required center distance, you must shift the main gear axis. To do properly, this will require a redesigned sideplate, as the gear recesses and holes will no longer be centered, probably some work for the dog as well. You can make a brand new bridgeplate, but it will probably be easier using the bridgeplate that matches the new gear set.
A bunch of other potential issues, as well (does the gear fit allow for the same diameter sideplate, otherwise some more to dos).
It is all doable with enough fabrication if the new pinion fits the old spool, spindle and yoke, but I don't see it as worth it, as the resulting reel would still be inferior to other options of the same form factor and gear ratio. But then I wouldn't hotrod a Maverick either :). So to each, their own.
Compared to the above, something like swapping out a gear sleeve and star would be a piece of cake.
Let us know how it goes.
Fishgrain is a member here, I've bought stuff from him in the past, he's a straight shooter
Quote from: jurelometer on July 29, 2023, 06:06:04 PMI think that there is some misunderstanding here. You can't "adjust" the center distance. You have to move the gears closer together or farther apart to maintain the required center distance.
-J
I absolutely can adjust center distance, I'm already making new stainless 3-155 style bridge plates and posts, and aluminum side plates. Changing the center distance is not a problem. I have considered getting silly and making sideplates from titanium instead, I have plenty of it laying around and this is a goof-off project, so if the new plate program works in aluminum, I can make the adjustments for titanium and enjoy even better corrosion resistance.
What I'm trying to find a way away from is in the 155 and 209 size gears the drag washer notches intersect the gear teeth, so the gear is effectively split/forked. It'd also be nice to have some options for different ratios. If all I need to do is adjust the bridge post slightly further down, and adjust the hole for the sleeve further down in the sideplate, that's not a big deal. Obviously, if I change the center distance for Gear set A, I can't continue using Gear set B/C/D if the center distance is different. Moving the bridge post and sideplate hole down more than just a little starts getting problematic-I can adjust for about 0.080" without having to start shifting all the other components around.
Frankly as a dude with a CNC I think you're being too conservative here. How about a double magnum? Like 4/0 gears in a surfmaster or 6/0 gears in a jigmaster.
Someone went and brought titanium to the party.
I'm surprised. Recently acquired a 109 in a batch. 3.75:1 ratio, didn't notice it was that fast. I was gonna donate the reel along with several others. You can have it if you want. It's in great shape, in fact it really looks unused, no marks at all. A 9 odda 10 on the V.O.T.-Randy scale.
I like my Penn Mag 210(no magnet in it) as a levelwinder with 4:1 Jigmaster gears. PM if interested.
Part of the reason for not going to the full double magnum big gear stuff is to try and keep the reel roughly the same size. I'm limited on the size of the CNC equipment students can use at work, and eventually I'd like to make this a student-doable project for my year 2 kids.
Personally, I prefer spinning reels for general fishing, but I figure there's a world of learning and definitely a place for a conventional reel in the rod arsenal, and I am always having to come up with things to make on the CNC at the school that are classroom appropriate. Since I was a gunmaker in my previous life, I can't really bring my past experience into the classroom, but I can bring in fishing stuff.
This kind of hot-rodding helps me appeal to a wider audience of high school boys, (and probably a girl or two, although I've not had one in class yet) because practically no one comes to take my class just because it's machine shop...they want to come to learn to machine engines or guns or suspension parts or airplanes etc, and a lot of the boys who show up and are somehow disappointed that I can't have them building guns or suspension parts or airplane parts in class are perfectly ok working on fishing stuff.
In a few years, I'll be able to offer a few solid "project paths" for students. Right now year one builds a steam engine and a fishing sinker mold, and I don't have a solid level-up in difficulty for year 2 students. (Haven't had a year 2 student yet, so not a huge issue)
In the end, I'll have to order some gear stock of appropriate size and tooth count for both pinion gears and main gears, but until I have a good understanding of how gear ratio affects the fishing, I want to stay with readily available Penn gearsets and drivetrain. It really takes a lot of pressure off of the tolerances if I can just buy drag washers, sleeves, and gearsets until I nail down all the components surrounding them.
Quote from: Wolfram M on July 29, 2023, 10:35:41 PMQuote from: jurelometer on July 29, 2023, 06:06:04 PMI think that there is some misunderstanding here. You can't "adjust" the center distance. You have to move the gears closer together or farther apart to maintain the required center distance.
-J
I absolutely can adjust center distance, I'm already making new stainless 3-155 style bridge plates and posts, and aluminum side plates. Changing the center distance is not a problem. I have considered getting silly and making sideplates from titanium instead, I have plenty of it laying around and this is a goof-off project, so if the new plate program works in aluminum, I can make the adjustments for titanium and enjoy even better corrosion resistance.
What I'm trying to find a way away from is in the 155 and 209 size gears the drag washer notches intersect the gear teeth, so the gear is effectively split/forked. It'd also be nice to have some options for different ratios. If all I need to do is adjust the bridge post slightly further down, and adjust the hole for the sleeve further down in the sideplate, that's not a big deal. Obviously, if I change the center distance for Gear set A, I can't continue using Gear set B/C/D if the center distance is different. Moving the bridge post and sideplate hole down more than just a little starts getting problematic-I can adjust for about 0.080" without having to start shifting all the other components around.
You responded to my post while I was re-editing it, so you might want to back and take a look at the updated version. Sorry about that.
If you are going to do a new sideplate, the main concern is whether the target reel spool and spindle fit with the 109 pinion. I would prefer to grab a full 109 donor reel to check everything out, rather than just the gear set.
You could also just reuse the 109 bridge if you are making a new sideplate. (BTW- if you go with a new bridge plate, I have some doubts about a straight press fit of the gear sleeve post, as this is a stress point on this reel design. The original design mitigates this somewhat with a pretty massive peening/squashing on the back side.)
I would not worry too much about the washer ear notches inside of the gear pocket. Just about every other moving part on this reel is going to fail before this becomes an issue. Even when the main gear teeth fail, it is not from load near the base of the teeth.
If I was looking for a project for the classic Penn designs that would actually substantially improve these reels, and was willing to make a new bridgeplate and sideplate, but not too many other parts- there is actually a very interesting upgrade to be be done that should (never a good idea to get too overconfident :) ) make the reel stronger than any of the customized Penns out there. PM me if interested.
And if you are going to turn this into a student project, I think that Delrin/Acetal is plenty suitable (probably preferable) for the sideplate, and something a bit easier/faster/cheaper for rookie CNC work. Plus no anodize/galvanic corrosion mitigation work, as would be needed for the aluminum.
Either way, please post your results. We all learn from each other here.
-J
For sure, the plastic sideplates would be fine. Titanium is one of those "Mr. T has TITANIUM in the mill!" things, one of my last contract jobs before I started teaching had nearly 60K$ of titanium plate laying on my shop floor before the contract fell through-I sold off most of it but still have a 4x8 sheet of 1/2" 6AL4V left.
Aluminum plates are actually the cheapest that I could have the kids machine in the classroom due to coolant/tooling issues, our current coolant in the CNC is not plastic compatible. It will be probably another year before I even start having students ready for the CNC program, I'm trying to both plan ahead and have some fun.
From what I can find, the biggest upgrade for strength of a Beachmaster is to replace the pinion with a ringed pinion. The 109 pinion does not have the groove cut in it for the pinion yoke, and I do not know if it can be cut in or not yet. The 13-209LC pinion could definitely be ringed, however, and the 13-155 could as well for that matter.
If you just want to bound the project to putting 109 gears in a beachmaster, then the items from my previous reply are are what I would worry about most. If the 109 pinion works with the beachmaster spool/spindle, and you can fabricate a new sideplate that matches the old sideplate diameter and accommodates the 109 bridge plate with the proper center distance, then you are probably golden.
Improving the load capacity of the reel:
Agree that ringing the pinion is not going to hurt if there is room. Assuming that was the first point of failure (I am not so sure), on to the other load based points of failure in order:
For most of the the classic Penn models, the gear sleeve to handle junction is the first to go- the gears sleeve head rounds off. After that the order depends on the model, but it is usually the gear teeth ends shredding (on the main if I remember correctly), and then the dog wearing prematurely, or even going under or over the ratchet. I believe that the radial to axial load transfer on the helical gears is half of the root cause behind a lot of the winding failures. And this also causes some secondary failures, such as the bridge post getting loose. After all this is addressed, the whole reel can twist at the "spacers that sort of constitute the frame.
Let us know how it goes.
-J
So, here's the full plan:
New aluminum spools and stainless spindles to allow a magnetic braking system
New aluminum reel stand/half frame (because my original chromed brass one is already tweaked)
New aluminum side plates (just because it will be fun, not that I think the plastic is a weak spot)
Stainless bridge plate is because my brass bridge plate has been de-zincified in some spots, this is the really coppery colored sections of corroded brass. This can happen when sulfured oils/greases are used on brass, or any other high-sulfur contaminate is left in contact with brass.
I also want to make some hardened stainless or some hard bronze AR dogs, and double-dog the bridge plate. Not sure exactly what method I want to use but there are a lot of examples here on the site of how others did it.
Stainless 98-155 gear sleeves are available, I might make some if they turn up hard to find. My gear sleeve is brass and has some de-zincified areas around the ratchet.
The ringed pinion is the only big failure I've found from other beachmaster users on the internet-they say that under heavy use the pinion flares out or just shears off, but I kinda think they're trying to fish the reel beyond it's limits.
I am under the impression that the maximum usable drag from the beachmaster or even the 109 drag stack should be about 8-9lbs fully tightened down, and trying to work it harder than that is what will cause gear sleeve and pinion damage.
With all the "improvements" (are they really improvements?) that I want to make I still don't think that the reel could go more than 10lbs of drag. I'll wind up building a dozen or so of each part eventually.
Cool!
Good to know about the sulfured grease/oil staining those parts—-always wondered what caused that.
Heading down to the P.O. to mail the 109 this afternoon.
Excited to see some of your results.