So far I've always put TSI on my drag washers. I soak them, let them sit a minute or two, then dry them off. I figure a lubricant that's generally unaffected by heat until you get well past the temp range we'd ever see in a reel is probably something good to use. But lately I've been thinking about it further. It seems many of the proponents of cal's also have TSI on hand for other uses.
So the question is how much better is cal's? Or is there something that makes TSI a bad choice for this application? To the best of my observation I've always had excellent results. But then if I'm always doing the same thing I don't have much of a control group.
What am I missing or misunderstanding? Don't say cals.
The specifics of drag grease are greatly over rated by many that think some kind of miracle sauce is inside of Cal's (or some other magic drag grease) or they fret about "contamination" with another grease.
Its essentially just a synthetic marine grease that is used to prevent salt water intrusion into the washers as once salt gets in them it makes them "lumpy" and sticky. Underneath the washers is a great place for corrosion to start. Grease keeps it out.
It also has the added benefit of reducing "startup" friction so that you get a nice smooth drag at low settings too. Straight carbon fiber can grab a little bit down low.
The "dry drag" people say that at high temps grease starts to lube the drag and you get lower performance.
This actually matters only to people fishing for VERY large fish that take the huge high speed runs that heat up drags. We're talking Marlin and huge Tuna, not the smaller models most of us are usually playing with.
Heat in your drag matters to like one in 1,000,000 actual fisherman ie unless you are 12 days south of San Diego LR for tuna or parading about on a couple million dollars worth of sport fisher off the coast of Kona you really don't need to worry about heat.
That said, if you find that TSI keeps the water out and your drag is smooth you have nothing to worry about friend.
Other than thinking about it too much.
Cause damn near any grease for a mechanical application will do, and probably lard would too if you like the smell of bacon when you are fishing.
;)
ps Cold does matter if fishing light leaders for your trophy in the snow. Then, better performing cold greases/oils improve the whole reel.
Mmm, bacon!
Great explanation, John!
And in my experience — right on all counts.
For me, I use Yamaha Marine, Cal's regular Tan, Cal's Purple, and SuperLube on the reels that come across the bench.
Just depends on the planned usage for the reel.
Anything will generally work better than dry —
Best, Fred
8) What Tsi are you using .. 301 or 321 . ???
Quote from: oldmanjoe on August 27, 2021, 04:16:00 PM
8) What Tsi are you using .. 301 or 321 . ???
Didn't know there were multiple. Per the bottle mine is the 321 edition
TSI on drag washers?
The point of lubricating carbon fiber drag surface is:
1. To decrease the difference between static (startup) and dynamic (ongoing) coefficient of friction. The problem is that a dry surface pair has a much higher static than dynamic number, so you can end up with all these micro starts and stops at certain load levels, which we experience as a sticky drag.
BTW: The coating of lubricant usually becomes the friction surface.
2. To prevent contamination of the drag surfaces by substances that would increase the difference between static and dynamic coefficient of friction. Saltwater drying and leaving salt and other mineral crystals on the drag surfaces is a common culprit. That carbon weave is the perfect place for turning seawater into salt crystals.
There is no ideal lubricant that will do everything we would like:
Bring the static and dynamic coefficients of friction close together without dropping the dynamic number too far (the lower the dynamic COF, the more clamping force it takes to acheive the same amount drag).
Maintain the same COF as the surface temperature rises from drag use. Most lubricants will havev a drop in COF due to the drop in viscocity from heat.
Keep salt water from drying out on the surfaces.
Stay where you put it.
A long service life with intermittent use (oxidation and grease/oil separation are common issues)
Not damage the resins in the center of the carbon discs that bonds the weave.
Not wear off the surface quickly.
A grease that does well in a marine environment, with a high dropping point, and a PTFE additive (more consistent COF) has been the most popular for the most demanding situations.
No lubricant at all is also an option. It will require less clamping load for the same amount of drag, which is especially useful on many lever drag designs, a higher top drag number, and more consistent drag as heat increases. But the drag can get quite sticky if it gets exposed to saltwater. You also have to give up some smoothness.
I believe that TSI is a thin film lubricant. A thin film lubricant might work, or might work for awhile. But the problem with thin film lubricants is that they generally don't last long in abrasive environments. That is why bearings that are lubricated with the stuff need more frequent service. And any choice should be evaluated against all of the criteria listed above that are relevant to your usage. My guess would be that once the carrier has worked its way out with just the film remaining, that TSI would not provide much of a change for the better, COF-wise, or at least not for long.
We get a semi regular stream of ideas for drag and other reel lubricants,but since the lubricants don't change much, and the requirements don't change much, we always end up back with the same set of best practices, with some slight advantages or preferences between product a and product b in a given category.
And I will not add a bacon smell as a requirement :)
-J
I bought the Cal's because that's what Alan recommended after servicing a gazillion reels. On reassembly, I start slopping marine grease all over everything and it gets on the gears and metal washers and my hands and tools and table and rag. So, when it comes time to use the Cals everything is already greasy and cleaning them again seems silly. Then, I put Cal's on anyway.
Ok so it seems like the general theme is that it should be a grease more than an oil for the longevity and keeping stuff out. I have some Yamaha but I think I'll go order some cal's. Thank you everyone for the clarification.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on August 28, 2021, 02:53:46 PM
Ok so it seems like the general theme is that it should be a grease more than an oil for the longevity and keeping stuff out. I have some Yamaha but I think I'll go order some cal's. Thank you everyone for the clarification.
Another option is Superlube with PTFE. It is cheaper and easier to find than Cal's, and several folk here use it. It is a synthetic (I think that Cal's is petroleum based), has a high dropping point, and is the same viscosity. Plus it is listed as safe to use with food processing equipment. Cal's or Superlube can be used to grease other parts of the reel too, not just the drag.
Note that we are discussing lubricating carbon fiber weave drag disks here. I have read here that some other materials may actually get sticky if not left dry.
-J
I use a marine grease for the drags from Dupont containing PTFE. It is almost identical in color (tan) as Cal's. I bought a 1 lb. can about 6 years ago for $7.00. I've been using it since. Rudy
I've been using super lube for years on draw washers on hard working guide reels and its been great.
Cheers:
Todd
Quote from: Hardy Boy on August 29, 2021, 05:32:39 PM
I've been using super lube for years on draw washers on hard working guide reels and its been great.
Cheers:
Todd
Which variety? It seems to come in a bunch of different flavors
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on August 29, 2021, 06:22:23 PM
Quote from: Hardy Boy on August 29, 2021, 05:32:39 PM
I've been using super lube for years on draw washers on hard working guide reels and its been great.
Cheers:
Todd
Which variety? It seems to come in a bunch of different flavors
They only have one lubricating grease:
https://www.super-lube.com/silicone-lubricating-grease-with-syncolon-ptfe
don't remember how/where, but I got the impression that you specifically want
Teflon/PTFE -- NOT, Silicone!!! -- as the "slippery solid" component of drag grease
Ok now for the dumb question: having already used TSI on them if I wanna switch to superlube do I need to clean off the TSI first? I know it doesn't play well with some grease varieties.
An evaporating solvent, like brake cleaner, works well getting any undesirable build-up off CF washers.
I think the silicone caution may come from some silicone lubricants containing solvents (like acetone), that can react with plastic/rubber parts.
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Justin
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on August 29, 2021, 06:54:41 PM
Ok now for the dumb question: having already used TSI on them if I wanna switch to superlube do I need to clean off the TSI first? I know it doesn't play well with some grease varieties.
You are using 321 ,ride it out . It looks good spec wise . Be the test mule....
That is the one. I get it in a 14.1 oz tub. Last a long time. Good on gears and such also.
Cheers:
Todd
Super Lube makes good stuff. I use their greases and oils regularly on anything but charter service reels. Granted, all of the reels I work on never see a marine environment so I can't comment on how well it holds up to the salt. I'm a big fan of their ISO 10 lightweight oil for spool bearings, the ISO 220 gear oil for pinion, driveshaft, worm bearings, and the NLGI2 grease for gears and drag. They have a few more options if you buy direct from them versus buying from a third party. With all of that said, I still use the Alan Tani method of Yamalube and Cal's on reels serviced for the various Great Lakes charter customers of mine. Those charter reels see a much, much higher degree of abuse than the reels I get from recreational bass, salmon, walleye, steelhead, and musky fishermen.
I ordered some cals and some superlube. I suspect henceforth, other than being fresh out of penn grease, I will have enough lube variety.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on August 30, 2021, 12:49:10 PM
I ordered some cals and some superlube. I suspect henceforth, other than being fresh out of penn grease, I will have enough lube variety.
No need for more Penn grease. You can use the Cal's or Superlube for regular reel grease as well. Cal"s uses nothing but Cal's when they service a reel. On my cork drag fly reels, I use nothing but drag grease to minimize the risk of cross contamination that might make the cork sticky.
If you service spinners, it might be worth finding a lower viscosity grease for some variety vs having several greases with nearly identical properties. Thinner greases will provide less winding resistance with all those spinner parts whirling around. Maybe also on those smaller bass levelwind reels for folks that get picky about resistance. The thinner the grease, the more spots you can get away with not using oils.
The NLGI grade will tell you how thick a grease is. There is a recent thread on this. No experience with the lower viscosity greases on reels myself. Some of the pros here that service plenty of smaller spinners will blend a grease with other lubricants to to decrease the viscosity. If you ask the lubricant companies, they will probably tell you that is a bad idea - you have to know what you are doing to not degrade the grease properties. Compared to actual powered machinery, the performance demands that a spinning reel puts on a lubricant are pretty minimal, so blending does seem to me to be an option, especially if you use a blend that has been working for other folks here.
-J
All valid points. I'll fill in the gaps in my reasoning by saying that penn grease and penn oil mix wonderfully to give a lighter grease. I still have plenty of penn oil (since I have TSI mixing with penn grease is all I use it for). I've mixed penn oil with yamalube but it still retains that graininess I mildly dislike about yamalube in small spinners.
These opinions of mine are based on my limited experience and should be disregarded if they contradict anything.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on August 30, 2021, 07:35:50 PM
All valid points. I'll fill in the gaps in my reasoning by saying that penn grease and penn oil mix wonderfully to give a lighter grease. I still have plenty of penn oil (since I have TSI mixing with penn grease is all I use it for). I've mixed penn oil with yamalube but it still retains that graininess I mildly dislike about yamalube in small spinners.
These opinions of mine are based on my limited experience and should be disregarded if they contradict anything.
Your experiences are as valid as anyone else's, and add to the collective knowledge. We are all learning from each other.
Hopefully you will give the TSI lubed drag washes a test run. Might end up putting a dent in one of our assumptions.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on August 30, 2021, 08:38:53 PM
Hopefully you will give the TSI lubed drag washes a test run. Might end up putting a dent in one of our assumptions.
-J
I've been using it for the past 6 months on 4 reels that see a lot of use and 2 that don't see much action. It feels great, especially re: startup which is what made me wonder why others wouldn't be using it. but I'm pretty good about keeping them out of sand and spray and the ones that see the most use are FW only.
guessing S/W intrusion... or water intrusion, period
CF surface is rough & it doesn't compress easily like felt, to squeeze out
oil may be fine as lubricant (as long as enough of it stays where put)
but it doesn't stick around as long, or fill the nooks/crannies like
greaseQuote from: JasonGotaPenn on August 30, 2021, 09:50:04 PM
I've been using it for the past 6 months on 4 reels that see a lot of use
is one of those 4 still going
unexamined on original oil from 6 months ago?
or are you still in new-toy stage -- tweaking, tuning, adding a drop here/there?
Man, you guys make me glad I stopped using grease. Grease is so mysterious.
A nice oil by itself is enough to make a bearing or a pair of gears run smoothly. Right? A nice oil will coat everything and stay put for a little while. When a part is coated in oil it does not corrode or wear prematurely. Right? But oil seems to disappear from the bearings and gears over time because it is displaced by the whirling parts, or just drips off, or dries, or something. Right? So, the solution is to use grease that will stick longer and does not drip or whirl off. Right?
Another solution is to just use oil more often and forget the grease. When the oil starts to disappear just replenish it. But, you say, that will mean more servicing. Yes, so the service must be really really quick and easy. If you do not have factory oil ports then you would need to drill holes so you can easily drop/squirt oil on the gears, the bearings, the clutch, the AR. You end up with four to six holes to drop/squirt oil into. But, it only takes abut fifteen to thirty seconds to drop/squirt oil into all the holes. You have to "service" your reel a lot. Service is probably needed every trip. That is a lot of oil. It takes so much oil that it might even drip out sometime. But, that's OK. It is carrying grunge with it.
Now do the math. How much time does it take you to crack open a reel, clean it, relube, and do the usual routine? How often do you need to do it? What is the maintenance time per year or per hour of fishing? For me, frequently oiling without grease is easier and saves time.
I'm a conventional baitcaster. What I do is pretty much what all baitcasters did a hundred years ago. Everybody had an oiler in the tackle box.
Quote from: oc1 on August 31, 2021, 06:00:05 AM
Man, you guys make me glad I stopped using grease. Grease is so mysterious.
A nice oil by itself is enough to make a bearing or a pair of gears run smoothly. Right? A nice oil will coat everything and stay put for a little while. When a part is coated in oil it does not corrode or wear prematurely. Right? But oil seems to disappear from the bearings and gears over time because it is displaced by the whirling parts, or just drips off, or dries, or something. Right? So, the solution is to use grease that will stick longer and does not drip or whirl off. Right?
Another solution is to just use oil more often and forget the grease. When the oil starts to disappear just replenish it. But, you say, that will mean more servicing. Yes, so the service must be really really quick and easy. If you do not have factory oil ports then you would need to drill holes so you can easily drop/squirt oil on the gears, the bearings, the clutch, the AR. You end up with four to six holes to drop/squirt oil into. But, it only takes abut fifteen to thirty seconds to drop/squirt oil into all the holes. You have to "service" your reel a lot. Service is probably needed every trip. That is a lot of oil. It takes so much oil that it might even drip out sometime. But, that's OK. It is carrying grunge with it.
Now do the math. How much time does it take you to crack open a reel, clean it, relube, and do the usual routine? How often do you need to do it? What is the maintenance time per year or per hour of fishing? For me, frequently oiling without grease is easier and saves time.
I'm a conventional baitcaster. What I do is pretty much what all baitcasters did a hundred years ago. Everybody had an oiler in the tackle box.
I think you're on to something here. I know a lot of reels have a lube port. That port isn't big, can't stick an acid brush in there to get at the gears, but you sure can stick an oiler in there. Oil is cheap and easy to apply, and doesn't require an assortment of tools to apply on the water.
Quote from: philaroman on August 30, 2021, 10:14:42 PM
is one of those 4 still going unexamined on original oil from 6 months ago?
or are you still in new-toy stage -- tweaking, tuning, adding a drop here/there?
Sort of both. I used it on the new carbon drags in my SS700 which has seen both SW and FW use. And truthfully I have not opened the drag since then, despite doing a full interior service after it saw a few good salt splashes a few months ago. So I'll crack open the drag assembly this evening and take some pics in the name of science. (Salt crystal presence would disprove viability of TSI on drags, but clean drags on this reel wouldn't necessarily be conclusive confirmation).
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on August 31, 2021, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: philaroman on August 30, 2021, 10:14:42 PM
is one of those 4 still going unexamined on original oil from 6 months ago?
or are you still in new-toy stage -- tweaking, tuning, adding a drop here/there?
Sort of both. I used it on the new carbon drags in my SS700 which has seen both SW and FW use. And truthfully I have not opened the drag since then, despite doing a full interior service after it saw a few good salt splashes a few months ago. So I'll crack open the drag assembly this evening and take some pics in the name of science. (Salt crystal presence would disprove viability of TSI on drags, but clean drags on this reel wouldn't necessarily be conclusive confirmation).
If there was salt buildup in the carbon weave, the drag would be sticky. Corrosion on the metal parts would be more of a concern, but TSI will probably do a decent job of protecting parts that are not rubbing on other parts.
The most difficult test for TSI will probably be under a heavy rubbing load.
A bit about thin film lubricants: I keep making the mistake of lumping all the different types together, but I think that most of the thin film lubricants that we are talking about are categorized as dry film. They go on as a liquid, but leaves behind a thin dry coating that sticks to the surface. Unlike oil or grease coatings that are mobile and can replenish the lubricating/protective layer, a dry film only works until is is worn away. And a dry film layer has to be very thin in order to not become an obstruction. The diameter of a small ABEC 1 outer ball bearing race can only vary by 5/1000 of an inch, and 1/1000 for an ABEC 7. That gives us an idea of how thin (and consistent) a dry film coating has to be to not hinder perfomance. One dry film product may be thinner, harder, smoother, or adhere /penetrate into to the surface better than another, but in the end it is always a very thin coating.
I would speculate that the best stress test for a dry coating on a drag is to crank up the drag, tie the line to a truck/car tow hitch, and pull off a hundred yards or so at 10-15MPH. If the performance is better than raw or greased drags after three or four pulls, then you are on to something.
But of course, if it works for how you are using it, then it works for how you are using it.
Quote from: oc1 on August 31, 2021, 06:00:05 AM
Man, you guys make me glad I stopped using grease. Grease is so mysterious.
A nice oil by itself is enough to make a bearing or a pair of gears run smoothly. Right? A nice oil will coat everything and stay put for a little while. When a part is coated in oil it does not corrode or wear prematurely. Right? But oil seems to disappear from the bearings and gears over time because it is displaced by the whirling parts, or just drips off, or dries, or something. Right? So, the solution is to use grease that will stick longer and does not drip or whirl off. Right?
Another solution is to just use oil more often and forget the grease. When the oil starts to disappear just replenish it. But, you say, that will mean more servicing. Yes, so the service must be really really quick and easy. If you do not have factory oil ports then you would need to drill holes so you can easily drop/squirt oil on the gears, the bearings, the clutch, the AR. You end up with four to six holes to drop/squirt oil into. But, it only takes abut fifteen to thirty seconds to drop/squirt oil into all the holes. You have to "service" your reel a lot. Service is probably needed every trip. That is a lot of oil. It takes so much oil that it might even drip out sometime. But, that's OK. It is carrying grunge with it.
Now do the math. How much time does it take you to crack open a reel, clean it, relube, and do the usual routine? How often do you need to do it? What is the maintenance time per year or per hour of fishing? For me, frequently oiling without grease is easier and saves time.
I'm a conventional baitcaster. What I do is pretty much what all baitcasters did a hundred years ago. Everybody had an oiler in the tackle box.
I don't know what is mysterious about grease. It is just oil mixed with a soap or other thickener that keeps the oil plus additives where you want it. Too thin and it won't stay in place, too thick, and it acts too much like an adhesive. In terms of porting a reel until it resembles Swiss cheese, well they do that with modern fly reels, and it really sucks when a gust of wind blows a bunch of sand into your reel and it mixes with the wet lubricants. Grease is bad, but oil is not that much better. I am mostly a sealed reel H8er, but limiting hard particle intrusion is a useful feature. Drilling a couple holes into a reel and regularly pouring oil into some while it continuously drips out of others seems an unlikely candidate for a universal reel design feature. But I am glad that somebody is trying it and advocating for it. Yo never know...
In terms of maintenance intervals with grease, I have successfully gone up to two years of panga fishing ( maybe 60 fishing days) without disassembling unsealed conventional reels for service. Small wet boats, so plenty salt spray crusting and getting inside the reels. I do soak the reels regularly in a bucket of fresh water and let them dry out. Two years is pushing my luck, but once a year servicing at the end of fishing season does not worry me at all. The grease is very protective. And fresh water is an excellent solvent for salt. Oil, not so much. And my reels are not dripping oil on my clothes and the boat.
But I will concede that it would be nice if it were easier to get to the casting bearings for oiling on some reels. Like some of the old Newells that had removable caps on both sides.
YMMV
-J
Hey now. If I'm still entertaining TSI on drag its in the name of science since its already been done. However I'm not gonna beat the crap outta my favorite reel in the name of better science. Both Cals and superlube are already on the way.
I am loving this thread - again the only way we learn is by trying. And we learn the most through "destructive testing" (just kidding!!!!). Random thoughts: I like OC Steve's approach. All of the "old school" Penn's had their oil ports with the spring loaded ball - shoot oil in, and hopefully the check ball keeps most of the contaminants out when fishing. (And again, GUM Brand dental brushes are awesome for cleaning out the oil ports especially the one that lubes the gear mesh in your old bakelight side plates - no I do not own stock).
With regards to oiling the drag stack after assembly, I have to wonder how effective it would be. Let's say my son and I are both having pancakes for breakfast. As we stack the pancakes together on his plate, we put butter and syrup on each layer. When done we then pour syrup over the stack, and for the most part it...runs off and makes a pool on the plate and really doesn't penetrate. On the other hand on my plate I stack my pancakes dry, and pour the syrup on them. And for the most part with the exception of the outside edge of the pancakes and the top surface, if we "deconstruct" the interior surfaces will be dry. Guess I am making pancakes in the morning, now I'm hungry... - john
I'm hungry too, but not for pancakes -- I'd rather eat crepe ;D ;D ;D
anyway, try spinning yours & son's plates while applying top-pressure to pancake stacks,
and please report results... in the name of science
perhaps PB thinned with pecan/hazelnut oil could mimic grease & provide interesting snack
I know ::) it's late
I wish i opened this post sooner , i could have been part of the test .
Maybe try Super Lube, it's food grade & Kosher certified. ;D I just got an email from Super Lube that it is impervious to saltwater & resists washout. It can be used on propeller shaft splines. Now that's a tough place for any grease. Rudy