Fishing with vintage pre-Depression lines is frustrating; impossible really. In those days the usual lines were braided silk for light baitcasting or twisted linen (Cuttyhunk) for heavier use. You can easily find vintage lines at the auction but all have deteriorated to some degree. If you're lucky, you can get half the original breaking strength. Since they are natural fibers, they are subject to microbial attach, acidification and oxidation. Vintage clothing has the same problem. Natural fiber lines were hard enough to use when new so when you double the original size to make up for deterioration you end up with a huge lumbering thing.
Cuttyhunk is twisted the same way that rope is made. It even looks like miniature twisted rope. Making rope the old fashioned way is not that difficult. We used to do it to replenish supplies every year as Boy Scouts. There is tons of information and videos on making rope if you are interested. Basically, you find an open space as long as the rope you want to make, have or make a rope twisting machine, start with some twine and build it up into a rope of the appropriate diameter for the task. The space and associated equipment is called a rope walk. Rope walks are an important part of nautical history. There used to be some huge ones.
I've been playing with this off and on for a year or so. This was my first rope twisting machine:
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDa.jpg)
The long board was clamped to a sawhorse and the short board rotated by hand to turn the three hooks simultaneously. This is the head piece. The tail piece at the other end of the rope has a counter weight thrown over another sawhorse to provide tension while allowing the strands to shorted as rope/line is twisted.
With hours of work little pieces of something resembling fishing line could be made:
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDb.jpg)
Several things became obvious. First and foremost, twisting the line by hand is time consuming and tiring when making short little pieces and would be painful to impractical for a making a full spool of line.
It is important to twist the strands or groups of strands simultaneously so they have the same number of twists. Here is the new and improved model. The twisting mechanism was made with a couple pieces of plate, four gears and some screws.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDc.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDd.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDe.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDf.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDg.jpg)
There are no thrust bearings on the plates so axial (lateral) forces are taken up by sacrificial copper washers under the gears. The twisting mechanism is just a 1:1 gear ratio because the gearing to develop speed is in the drive mechanism. Here is the first drive mechanism. It is really just a joke in case someone offers to help and for later use making little decorative things. It is not practical for making a spool of line.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDh.jpg)
For longer lengths of line, an electric drill motor is used. First this one:
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDi.jpg)
Note the two brass triangles in front of the twisting mechanism. The first small one insures that the lateral force is perpendicular to the gears, again to prevent axial wear on the plate without thrust bearings. The second larger triangle is to spread the spinning lines apart so they cannot touch. The spinning lines will gallop and if they ever touch each other they will catch and create a huge mess. The twisting mechanism turns short pieces of strong stiff green braided nylon that can handle the abrasion of spinning against the brass triangles. The threads that will become fishing line are tied to the distal ends of the green braided line.
The trouble with this drill motor is that it is not reversible and I soon realized that if it won't reverse it won't work. So, it was replaced with a reversing variable speed drill. It works, but since there is no trigger lock the trigger has to be tied down with a piece of cord..
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDj.jpg)
At this other end of what will hopefully become a piece of fishing there has to be a second anchor point and a means of holding a constant tension as the line becomes shorter from the twisting. For this, I used an old Penn Seagate star drag reel spooled with thick braided nylon. The leather drag washers and under-gear fiber washer had crumbled and were replaced with greased Carbontex and Mylar. As the twisting line shortens it pulls line off the reel.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDk.jpg)
Both the twisting and drive mechanism and the reel at the other end are mounted on large wooden stands. The tension will turn over a sawhorse so something more substantial is needed.
I'm learning that making nice looking Cuttyhunk is really difficult and may be impossible using a rope walk.
Here is some fifteen thread Cuttyhunk I found as backing on an old reel. It is unworn, beautiful and premium quality designed to break at about 45 pounds when wet. It now breaks at about twenty pounds.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDl.jpg)
Note that three cords or ply were twisted together to form the line. Each of the three ply is composed of five threads. Initially, the linen fiber is spun into threads using a spinning wheel or more modern equivalent. Each of these five threads are twisted simultaneously until they come together as a ply. Each of the three ply are twisted simultaneously until they come together as the full fifteen thread line.
The premium quality line in the photo has been made with premium quality thread that is very uniform. There was probably some wet spinning done to minimize fuzziness. After the line came together there was probably some polishing processes like flaming and rubbing to remove any remaining fuzz. I do not know if it was treated with any sort of sizing liquid to further reduce fuzziness, increase strength and increase abrasion and wear resistance.
When the five thread ply was made, it was twisted to the left. It's called an 'S' twist because the threads angle up to the left like the center section of the letter 'S'. When the three ply were twisted into the finished line it was twisted to the right and is called a 'Z' twist because it angles to the right like the center portion of the letter 'Z'. Having alternate "layers" twist in opposite directions makes for a tighter and more rigid weave and is called a hard lay. If all layers were twisted in the same direction it would be a soft lay. You can tell the difference by feel and would know which is hard and which is soft.
I have a 92 yard rope walk set up. But, the line gets shorter as it is twisted so to the end result is about 80 yards of line. I need to clear some foliage to get a clear shot to 113 yards and have a hope for a 100 yard spool.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDm.jpg)
Man, it's going great so far. I've spent three days on my feet, walked miles 92 yards at a time, wasted about a half mile of difficult-to-find linen thread, and have one lousy 80 yard piece of six thread, 18 pound test line that might be good enough to take fishing.
In theory it is just like making rope but the devil is in the details. There seems to be an optimum ratio of the number of 'S' twists in each two-thread ply, to the number of 'Z' twists in the finished line.... and I'm not yet sure what that ratio is and I can not count how many twists are being made. For the 'S' twist I run the drill with the trigger bottomed out which the label says should be about 2800 rpm. For the 'Z' twist I have to slow it way down but don't know if it's 500 rpm or 1000 rpm, or what. To move the reversing switch the trigger has to be released. I've ordered a 500 rpm gear motor to use as a drive. That will make things slow, but measurable and repeatable. We'll see.
I learned the hard way.... twice... that there must be a way to immediately turn off the drill motor using one hand anywhere along that 92 yards, and especially at the tail end where the reel is. At 2800 rpm things can happen pretty fast. I now have a bunch of extension cords and an in-line switch down at the reel. To stop it anywhere else along the 92 yards I just yank the extension cords and it comes unplugged somewhere.
-steve
Steve,
You are an amazing fisherman, but I have to laugh that you are so into it, that you actually make your own line.
Wow!
Die Hard! Through and through! ;D
No disrespect brother. I really like your style. ;)
Wow just the kind of skills that we will need post apocalypse ;)
That's true dedication to the sport, Steve !! And a" hobby" within a "hobby", to boot !
Steve, this is amazing to me, you are full of surprises. Could you post a pic of the face plate, I'm not getting how you attached the line to the posts, did you drill a hole sideways?
Lots of talent here...thanks for sharing.
Sal
Nice! I fish old gear with Spectra, you are a purest. BSA!
Great stuff, Steve! I remember a machine at Boy Scout camp for making rope, very similar to your first photo. They let each camper make a short length, and there were timbers lashed nearby and a rope bridge made from that rope, together with knot demos. This was something worth remembering.
You have amazing drive to follow through with so much analysis and effort on those details. Your project has intrinsic value that I cannot describe. These are the kinds of skills that continue to disappear from the US, and are quickly claimed by other peoples. Like old fabric looms being left outside to rust, and then being bought and shipped to another country, where they are refurbished and used to continue making cloth in another part of the world.
Could someone video you doing this? If you weren't in the middle of the Pacific, I'd drive out and do it myself. ::)
Really impressive and clever, Steve!
Up here on the mountain, there are also some extremely clever folks who have very innovative and can-do talents.
Yesterday, a friend came by with his Case loader and backhoe to brush up slash into burn piles. While doing this, the front aluminum cast and machined cover for his power steering pump broke in half at the filter housing.
He is tech savvy as a retired Air Force KC-135 airframe and powerplant mechanic -- so he is no Pilgrim.
Gets online -- calls a few folks -- part discontinued -- available as used or unique new for about $200.
So, after removing the part -- he just goes back down the road to home -- welds the aluminum part back together -- sleeves it -- welds some more -- pins and welds more -- grinds off the excess -- polishes it up, and reinstalls with 5 bolts -- fills the PS fluid -- back in business.
Another time, it was early Archery Deer season -- and I was hiking into my hunting area up past Onion Springs close to Rock Creek, on the Norh side of the South Fork of the San Joaquin. I have a Bear Polar ll compound bow with CF shafts and razor points. Pass a guy's camp with his two sons -- talk for a moment -- he makes his own arrows, points, and bow each year from materials he finds around camp. The shafts were wet and straight as they hung across a line between two trees. He didn't say much -- but I had no doubt that in a few more days -- there would be a couple of deer hanging there also.
I think if I was on a wagon train heading West -- that I would want Steve along...
Best,
Fred
The Adventures of Steve have open another chapter....Incredible brother....Bill
Can't you feed your line off of spools to you twister? That way you don't need to use the neighbors yard to get a finished line any length you want.
Just wondering.
That is pretty darn cool though.
Quote from: Bill B (Tarfu) on November 04, 2017, 05:03:13 PM
The Adventures of Steve have open another chapter....Incredible brother....Bill
that's cool,,,,you can make rope out of old power pro too ;D
Pretty cool process, Steve! You obviously have a lot of patience between that, your cane poles, etc. Word of warning, though:
Don't imbibe prior to twisting, you may tie yourself up and starve to death, or strangle yourself right there on the spot! ;D
Interesting stuff. I'm going over to youtube to see some videos of rope being made. Dominick
I am so loving this stuff ;D
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on November 05, 2017, 12:08:25 AM
I am so loving this stuff ;D
I cant wait to get done with work & see what he's up to next...Jeff
Thank you all. Sorry Sal; forgot this one.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDn.jpg)
The nylon lines are just tied to a hole in the shaft because I was unsure about having hooks flying around. The knots are a pain though because two of them have to be untied and removed when switching from twisting the three separate ply to twisting them all at once as they come together. I'll either fashion hooks or do something with the green lines so two of them can run without being held taught.
I keep slathering the thing with blue grease but it liquefies and is flung off soon. I've found tiny brass filings under the front spindles where the brass rod rubs on the stainless plate too. Hopefully it will last until I get sick of this and give up.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDo.jpg)
David, the rope/line making machine you describe would far exceed my abilities but I can vaguely imagine one. You would be spinning three tensioned spools laterally. It would be sort of like sticking a reel seat on the spinning shaft and then clamping on a reel with a drag; except centered and balanced. At the other end there would be a reel spinning in the opposite direction and taking up line under tension; like one of those spring wound automatic fly reels. In between would be a choke point where the line comes together. The vintage Cuttyhunk line we see at the auction was surely made by some such machine. All sorts of stuff like that had appeared by the end of the Industrial Revolution in the mid-1800's. It may not be possible to duplicate those results with the older ropewalk technology. By then, they also had fairly sophisticated machines to form linen thread from a mass of flax fiber. The thread used to make premium Cuttyhunk would be difficult to get off the housewife's spinning wheel or spindle.
I try to stand back a bit, Tommy. Also, I don't wear my good fishing suit or a neck tie.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/fishing%20suit.jpg)
I was lucky to find the spool of linen in the photo above but it is not nearly as good as what they used for premium Cuttyhunk. It is not very uniform. When you run the line through your fingers there a little bumps every few feet and you can still feel the bumps when it comes together in the finished line. It is convenient that it is already two ply but if it was single ply then some of those bumps could be cleaned up a bit before spinning it. It may be possible to separate the two threads so they can be cleaned up a bit and twisted more before bring them together again. That would make the finished line harder and less fuzzy. I have another spool of unbleached linen that is single ply but there is only enough of it to make one piece, six threads, 100 yards. I'll save it for later.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDv.jpg)
The finished line is being run through a flame to get rid of some of the fuzz but it's still too soft. Also, it needs some sort of sizing and preservative. These are age-old problems and the age old solution is kiln burnt pine tar. The tar has antimicrobial properties that prevents rot. It also slicks down some of the fuzziness and will provide some sizing. I tried rubbing pine tar straight from the can into a line but that was really time consuming, it wasn't uniform, and left it too thick.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDt.jpg)
The next time the pine tar was thinned down with turpentine. The line was flamed, spooled, soaked, then the excess wiped away. This did not seem to leave enough tar behind but there is probably a happy medium somewhere.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDp.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDq.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDr.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDs.jpg)
That last photo is a 100 yard reel with 82 yards of line and it is over-filled. The reel with the dark tar line is an 80 yard reel with 70 yards of line and it is way over-filled. There didn't seem to be strict standards for what constitutes an 80 yard reel or a 100 yard reel but the line I'm making must be thicker than what they were designed for.
When pulled against a spring scale the line breaks at about 23 pounds. The goal was 18 pounds so it's stronger than needed. The diameter is about 27 thousandths of an inch so the cross-sectional area would be about 0.0006 square inches or 48 yards per cubic inch (without voids).
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDw.jpg)
Genuine commercial six thread Cuttyhunk had a wet strength of 18 pound test. Although the strength has deteriorated over time, I do not think the diameter of the line has shrunk over time. A unused spool of vintage line still looks like a full spool to me. Here are two examples of vintage six thread line with approximate diameters of 20 and 23 thousandths or 77 yards per cubic inch (without void spaces).
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDz.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/RDx.jpg)
My six thread line is fatter and stronger than commercial six thread line was back in the day. But, my line may weaker relative to it's diameter than the commercial lines.
-steve
You amaze me, Steve ! Next, you will be growing your own flax !
Amazing patience my friend :)
I have seen that landscape before and that engineering then it hit me ;D ,,,,mr professor
Amazing! Thanks for sharing!
Tom
I must say Steve, you are a truly patient and smart individual. I always enjoy your post's and what you're up too!!
................Lou
I got one reel at the house crying out for this,,, ;D
Thank you gentlemen. I've considered trying to grow flax but think our climate may be too warm and humid. We've grown a little cotton before but what really does well here are plants in the order Zingiberales. These include things like banana, heliconia and ginger, all of which are potential sources of fiber. Manila, one of the worlds best and most popular fibers for making rope, is closely related to the edible banana. Chinese grass, ramie, or the green ramie might do OK here and they make a very strong fiber that is as fine as linen. Hemp grows well here but while hemp is very strong it may be too coarse from making fishing line.
-steve
I'm putting in an order to fill my 16/0
;D ;D ;D
These guys are right, you got some serious skills, patience, and a beautiful passion for everything fishing.
Love it, Thank you for showing how it's done
Dom
Thanks for sharing Steve, I think that brain of yours is going full on, even when your asleep, thanks mate, good luck, cheers Don.
I think if I was to try growing hemp.......I'd lose interest in making fish line LOL!
Bravo Steve! 8)
Steve I am impressed. Your posts are always polite, thoughtful and informative. You are truly an asset to this site. Now if you want to further impress me "Mercerize" your line. :D ;D Dominick
Fascinating thread (pun fully intended ;)) Steve - thanks for sharing!
OK. I got it now. That spool of peach colored two ply stuff I'm starting with is the problem. The tightness and hardness of the final product can only be as tight and hard as the two ply. As noted above, my spool of two ply is very lightly twisted (soft). If I separate the two ply into two single threads and then twist them tighter with the machine they come back together nicely. When the three groups of two are later twisted they come together much better too.
Separating the two ply is a bit tricky though. The stuff was not designed for that and sometimes one thread will pull fiber from the other and weaken it. If a thread breaks you can either throw it away and start over or tie it back together. I tie it because I can't afford to waste another 100 yard piece. When you tie it back together that thread will have a new bump and be several inches shorter than the other, so the other thread has to be shortened too in order to keep the same tension on both.
Each piece of peach two ply has to be gingerly separated, twisted tighter with the machine, then either put on a spool or parked someplace out of the way until all three lengths are completed. It gets very tedious and takes about three times longer than what I was doing before.
Dominick, I've seen spools of thread that say "mercerized" but didn't know what it means and had to look it up. From the interweb, "verb - treat (cotton fabric or thread) under tension with caustic alkali to increase its strength and give it a shiny, silky appearance." Gulp. I can't even clean a reel without getting oil and grease and cleaner and solvent all over myself and probably shouldn't be messing around with caustic alkali. The next thing said "The process is less frequently used for linen and hemp threads." Whew. For now, that's going to be my excuse for not Mercerizing my fishing line. But still, it definitely deserves looking in to. It's the same lye (sodium hydroxide) used to make pickles and I would hate to say I'm not careful and responsible enough to make pickles.
I know that linen fishing line was stretched under tension as part of the finishing process and it does no good to stretch it if it is not wet with something. I've been leaving it stretched with about four pounds of tension overnight as the pine tar and turpentine cure. Maybe it should be wet with pickling lye instead. This says to soak in a 25% solution of sodium hydroxide for two minutes under tension followed by several washings and neutralization with 10% acetic acid.
http://article.sapub.org/10.5923.j.textile.20170601.03.html (http://article.sapub.org/10.5923.j.textile.20170601.03.html)
-steve
p.s. Has anyone seen my avatar around here. I just had it a few days ago.
You should take up raising tropical fish and plants.... :D
Quote from: oc1 on November 06, 2017, 06:23:34 AM
Has anyone seen my avatar around here. I just had it a few days ago.
I see it; you don't? Try clearing your cache and reloading the page, or just ctrl+f5.
Thank you Joe. That worked. You found me Lee.
-steve
WOW!!!!!!!!! I'm not sure what to say. COOL doesn't seem to be enough. How about AWESOME PROJECT.
I have a 50# drum of NaOH (lye, caustic soda) in the barn for several uses, one being soap making. It also makes liquid plumber look like water when it comes to cleaning drains. Wear eye protection, long sleeves ans rubber gloves when playing with lie and avoid the fumes.
If you want to play with it and have trouble finding lye let me know.
Thanks for the offer Lee. I ordered a small jar on-line. Probably better to let a stranger send hazardous material through the mail.
-steve
Why would white powder in the mail cause alarm.... ;D