Colleagues,
1. Who has better line lay: 285 or 330 or 330N?
2. Who has better line lay: 330N or 331N?
Best,
Milan
This is a not so easy question when dealing with reels of this era. Simply because reels over time get beat up, bails & bail arms get bent & no two reels of the same model perform the same because of this & no two people will adjust them same.
With that said the closest to perfect line lay I've achieved with DAM Quick reels is with the 331 & the 270. I've worked on more 270's than any other Quick. They all will work well with braid... Jeff
Jeff took the words right outta my mouth. Proper line lay is a roll of the dice with most any reel brand...or model...and depends on the line selected too. In my experience, most times it is the smaller reels that have line lay issues, but a little tweaking will always correct the issue. 8)
Colleagues,
Asking questions, I assumed that adjustments could be made to make the line lay work better.
I also assumed that experienced users did.
The first question concerns the compliance of the line lay mechanism with dimensions of spool.
The second question is about the gear ratio (speed) relationship with line lay.
Do faster machines match the braid better or not?
It is assumed that the position of the spool is well adjusted.
When the latch is tripped the bail slams shut. The springs are a little overbuilt to make sure the bail closes completely so it slams shut with some authority. Some people close the bail on some reels manually but that is more the exception than the rule.
I think most line lay problems can be traced back to the bail repeatedly slamming shut. The contact points that take the brunt of the force become worn or deformed. This allows the bail to rotate/travel slightly farther than it should. Then the roller is no longer exactly perpendicular to the spool axis. When the line roller is not perpendicular, line may ride up on the flange part of the roller instead of migrating to the center. This changes the line lay and may make the line lay more variable.
Changing the line diameter will also change the line lay.
The curious thing is how such a minute change in the bail can make such a dramatic change in the line lay.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on April 13, 2020, 10:27:34 AM
The curious thing is how such a minute change in the bail can make such a dramatic change in the line lay.
-steve
Yes...when the line is "stacking" more to either the front or rear, it doesn't take long to make a mess. Something I've found that wrecks line lay more than anything is those darn missing rubber bumpers. This can move the pickup's positioning as much as 1/8th an inch. That's like 8 miles in line lay math. Here's a few photos to try and demonstrate how the missing bail bumper can ruin your day. In the first photo the yellow arrow is touching the bail bumper. In the second pic the bumper is missing. That will change the pickup's positioning...resulting in the line lay changing...most times for the worst.8)
Quote from: oc1 on April 13, 2020, 10:27:34 AM
Changing the line diameter will also change the line lay.
The curious thing is how such a minute change in the bail can make such a dramatic change in the line lay.
-steve
That is something a lot of people obviously don't think about. If you really stop and think about it most reel manufacturers have always referenced a line weight (i.e. 2-6, 6-12, 8-20#, etc.) range for a given reel. Then some dude decides he wants to use a medium-light size reel on big fish and sticks 15 or 25# test line on it instead of using something it was designed for and implementing the drag function as intended. That might work if the reel was designed for mono and you decide to use braid, but larger diameter line is always going to spool on, lay, different than smaller diameter line. I'm pretty sure that's why reels were recommended for a narrow range of line weights.
Personally, I try to say in the middle of the range recommended. I seldom have a problem with even lay unless a part is showing wear.
Mike we need a line roller & guide for some of these Quicks. I'm at some point going to try to make use of the carbide roller on a the 270 & fashion some type of bail less set up. Cant say that I've ever seen mid size spinners that were with out bail.
Using braid has work fine for me on all Quick reels I've used it. You will at some point as with any reel using braid need to wind it back on tight. This can be done with out line winder... Jeff
If we suppose everything is set up properly, only consideration of speed remains...
Do higher gear reels have better line lay for braid use?
Slower transmission is more cross and this is better due to the elimination of cutting breid into oneself.
With which nests are less likely to form? Higher or slower gear ratio?
Quote from: Rivverrat on April 14, 2020, 02:24:47 AM
Mike we need a line roller & guide for some of these Quicks. I'm at some point going to try to make use of the carbide roller on a the 270 & fashion some type of bail less set up. Cant say that I've ever seen mid size spinners that were with out bail.
If you look at most PUM kits you get the impression that a big deep pickup is needed to keep the line engaged, I think it may be overkill. Making a reel manual is usually as easy as hacking off the bail. I've heard guys say that it won't work, but I beg to differ, I have many reels converted by this "googan hack" and have never had one not fish fine. Especially if the reel has a good roller...as you mentioned. Mid size PUM conversions were rare...but
do exist. ;)
Quote from: Milan S on April 14, 2020, 11:45:12 AM
If we suppose everything is set up properly, only consideration of speed remains...Do higher gear reels have better line lay for braid use? Slower transmission is more cross and this is better due to the elimination of cutting breid into oneself. With which nests are less likely to form? Higher or slower gear ratio?
I don't think reel speed will effect your line lay...unless I'm missing something. I found that most line lay issues involving modern braid on vintage spinners is simply a matter of selecting the proper diameter braid. Just like Tommy suggested using the proper diameter mono...drastic changes in braid diameter will cause you grief also.
Example: The selected reel was designed for 10lb. mono and you spool up with 10lb. braid. That 10lb. braid is the diameter of 4lb. mono!. If it works...consider yourself lucky. If not...try 30-40lb. braid...it is the same diameter as the 10lb. mono...and will spool up without any drama. Just forget about the strength rating. As long as you don't get snagged, lock down the drag, and try to bust that 40lb. line by pulling back with the reel, you'll never hurt your reel. 8)
Quote from: Milan S on April 14, 2020, 11:45:12 AM
If we suppose everything is set up properly, only consideration of speed remains...
Do higher gear reels have better line lay for braid use?
Slower transmission is more cross and this is better due to the elimination of cutting breid into oneself.
With which nests are less likely to form? Higher or slower gear ratio?
I cant say with any certainty that a fast geared reel will work better with braid.
It is my belief that keeping braid wound on the spool tight is the best way to do this. Braid needs to be installed at the very least using the same level of drag you intend to fish it.
This should be done ever so often. You can let line off the back of a boat while under way & teel back in with a small spinning bait or something to give resistance. Or te line off & reel back under tension... Jeff
Quote from: mo65 on April 14, 2020, 01:55:49 PM
If you look at most PUM kits you get the impression that a big deep pickup is needed to keep the line engaged, I think it may be overkill. Making a reel manual is usually as easy as hacking off the bail. I've heard guys say that it won't work, but I beg to differ, I have many reels converted by this "googan hack" and have never had one not fish fine. Especially if the reel has a good roller...as you mentioned. Mid size PUM conversions were rare...but do exist. ;)
Question. What's the point of PUM?
Quote from: Balvar24 on April 14, 2020, 03:01:19 PM
Question. What's the point of PUM?
It was developed for surf casters. Casting very heavy lures or baits has a tendency to make the rotor roll and trip the bail...resulting in a snapped line and lost lure.
Jeff hit one nail on the head that had yet to be mentioned. It really doesn't matter whether it's mono or braid, appropriate tension is paramount to even and consistent line lay. Loose looping line onto the spool creates lots of uneven line stacking.
After thinking a bit more on the original question by Milan.
First off I dont think any of the models mentioned will do badly at what your asking about after the bail & associated parts are in alignment.
However of all Quick reels the 01 models have the easiest to adjust & possibly the best line lay of the DAM Quick reels using this
The 01models took what I believe started with the Finessa 285 model to its highest level of refinement... Jeff
is line-lay/oscillation same for all 4-digit models?
any significant changes from 00's to 01's to 02's ?
I dont have an answer for that.
Would not surprise me if the first 3 models with spool skirts were the same in this regard.
Could someone tell me if the 00 models have spool disk that adjust the spool on
its cross pin ?
It's a shame these designs cant be reproduced today at reasonable cost... Jeff
Quote from: Rivverrat on April 15, 2020, 03:15:26 AM
I dont have an answer for that.
Would not surprise me if the first 3 models with spool skirts were the same in this regard.
'01 & '02 are the same for line lay -- adjustable arbor -- dead simple.
Could someone tell me if the 00 models have spool disk that adjust the spool on
its cross pin ? '00's do not have the adjustable spool arbors for line lay preferences.
It's a shame these designs cant be reproduced today at reasonable cost... Jeff
They could be, Jeff...However, we need to realize -- that compared to some of the top quality spinning reels of today (Penn, Accurate, Shimano, and others) -- if produced today, these reels would likely have to be in the $300 to $400 range. And that would be "reasonable" for what you would be getting in quality. And, that is what makes these old Quicks such a great bargain today -- if you just take one and restore it to original -- it will give you decades of effective angling -- and probably outlast us.
Best, Fred
Jeff,
Thank you for your direct response and helpful advice.
I thought the answers would go in the direction of higer gear ratio.
I also thought that someone would give answers regarding the mechanism for oscillation of the spool.
The oscillation mechanism is totally different on the 285 and 330 or 330N models.
My questions were about mehansm for spool oscilation and about gear ratio but my knowledge of English might be worse than the question requires.
Quote from: Milan S on April 15, 2020, 10:32:59 AM
.....The oscillation mechanism is totally different on the 285 and 330 or 330N models.....
Milan, I may not be entirely understanding..
The oscillation design in the reels you mention are based on the same design with minor differences.
Heres a picture of a 331 & a 220N. These reels are different in this area. Is this by chance what your talking about... Jeff
Rivverrat,
Oh, noooo.
I mean the connection between main shaft, slide cam and main gear.
Some connections between slide cam and main shaft are rigid and some are rotary type.
Also, the links between slide cam and main gear are different: rotary tipe or slider type cross groove.
For example at DQ 330n everything is rotary (connection to main gear and connection to main shaft). DQ 331N iz faster but it has the same type of connection.
DQ 285 is different. 285 has a rigid connection between main shaft and slide cam.
It also has a groove on the slide cam(connection to main gear)...
I meant those influences...
The question is who makes the best line lay arrangement on spool in the sense of the above: 285, 330,331, 330N or 331N?
;)
OK...now I see what Milan means. When he asked about faster reels working better he wasn't talking reel speed, he was talking oscillation speed. Some reels have the reduction gear to change oscillation speed for better line lay. It's a novel idea, but I can't say I've ever seen a huge improvement. I have reels that actually lay the line better with a common old "hoop" oscillation cam. I've never really researched it that much...maybe someone else has more experience with the issue. 8)
I don`t know how i miss this thread , but i started to play with line lay . The 270 and the 550 use the same spool , the 550 has a better cross wrap than the 270 for braid line . I did come across some thread were they were playing with S shape links to change line lay so as not let the line dig it when in heavy drag settings
I think this is what Milan was getting at when he started this thread . Some pictures.
Well done! That's it!
If such a mechanism were applied to 330N or 331N, would they then have a better line lay?
Has anyone tried it?
I believe that it will work well . I will have to look for the threads that a couple of guys were brain storming this for different reels .
If i am not mistaken Dam quick Royal mds 5500 , build date 1991 has this built in to it from the factory .
When i found this picture it was on a Romanian site . Again i think they are also talking about magnetic drags .
IF this works the English translation . http://rawaijaring.blogspot.com/2012/04/dam-quick-mds-royal-dam-3500-germany.html
Just found this . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zebSZ6h6UwY
This is what sparked my interest in the s links . https://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/topic/590669-penn-704-cross-wind-pin-increase-stroke/#comment-9696563