Heya Guys,
The large bait casting reels have captured my imagination for saltwater recently as this category of reels has made casting straight braid with conventional reels easier than ever before. They are ideal for their light weight and line management ability in conjunction with modern cast control features that make "professional over runs" nearly a thing of the past for even those with modest casting abilities ;). Braid has allowed us to fish heavy line on very small reels and the manufacturers have followed suit with more and more capable small reels. The latest trend in offshore fishing using large baitcaster reels has been to cast poppers, big swim baits and stick baits as well as traditional iron on straight braid to just short "bite leaders". Large baitcasting reels are leading this revolution in conventional casting due to their unique abilities.
This has also paralleled a trend in freshwater fishing towards larger and larger baits for trophy Bass, Muskie, Trout and inland Stripers etc. It turns out big fish like big baits! So reels capable of throwing 8 or 10 or 12oz or more have been developed having also the capacity to hold enough strong braid for fishing heavy cover or for hard running fish.
Enter the Revo Toro Beast from Abu Garcia:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_51_19089631.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19090)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_52_190902373.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19091)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_51_190882097.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19089)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_50_00_191121942.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19113)
And shown with a Revo Toro NaCl 60 for size comparison:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_54_19094897.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19095)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_53_190921479.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19093)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_53_190931631.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19094)
Abu has gone to a much more narrow body with an increase in spool height. The capacity of these two is just about the same but the more narrow reel will be a better caster and the angler will fight less "wobble" with a heavy fish on.
So why do I say the Revo Toro Beast is potentially "a revolution in large bait casting"?
Well, fishing braid has let us go smaller and smaller with reels (to save weight and energy over the day) and with that "instant" anti-reverse has become the norm rather than the exception in most modern reels. The low stretch of braid is ideal for hooksets and sensitivity but older reels with handle back play can be unpleasant to fish braid with a harsh "clunk" when the anti-reverse finally sets fishing the erratic retrieves many fish want or during a hookset.
Most of us are now fishing reels with instant anti-reverse that use some kind of One Way Clutch (OWC) to prevent handle back play. These are typically pressed into the right side plate and are out of sight and out of mind to many anglers:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_49_190821218.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19083)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_50_190861995.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19087)
The "needle" rollers inside are engineered to roll freely forward to take in line but "bite" a sleeve that is keyed to the handle shaft to prevent any play in the reverse direction, hence, a "one way clutch". Perfect for an instant hook set and precise feel when fishing.
The sleeve has a dual role as it not only is essential to the anti-reverse it also is used as a spacing washer when you tighten down the star to compress the drag stack. The picture below is the standard way to do it in another maker's reel:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_50_190842263.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19085)
Which at first take seems a remarkable economy of design incorporating 2 functions very nicely in a simple package...
Well, it turns out this works great most of the time but trouble can arise when it is time to loosen the drag with a fish on. What happens is the AR sleeve is tightly gripped by the clutch which restricts it's movement and release of the drag. We all are familiar with having no trouble tightening the drag as the star easily moves the sleeve to compress the drag even with a fish on. But if we need to loosen the drag (ie big girl dives under the boat and we want to avoid rod breakage) the OWC has a death grip on the sleeve and loosening the star has no effect. Once we set or increase drag we have kinda determined our fate in that particular fight with that particular fish until it stops it's run and releases the pressure on the OWC. Only then can the drag loosen. :(
You can easily test this yourself by doing a simple lift with your own rod and reel if it uses a OWC. Once you have enough drag to get a few pounds off the ground loosen the drag and see what happens (nothing!) as the AR Sleeve is gripped by the OWC and will not release the drag to let your weight take line. Until the pressure is off of the Clutch the drag will not loosen.
Sometimes by reeling forward (counter intuitive) the sleeve may move enough, usually not, unless we loosen the star so much we get into over-run territory and potentially lose the fish to a thrown hook or break off :(. And of course, many times to be sure, if we are using modest drag settings and soft hands we will have no trouble with ordinary fish, it is just when that trophy comes to the boat side that we have to be careful or come to grief as our options were previously limited with older designs that don't let us loosen drag when we suddenly need to most...
What Abu Garcia has engineered is the first solution to this problem with their Power Stack with Active Response Drag at the heart of the Toro Beast:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_57_191011018.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19102)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_57_19103741.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19104)
Which starts off with a "keyed" IAR Sleeve to the washers that mates with a bushing to increase overall smooth performance of the drag. This is unique in the sense that rather than the drag washers being keyed to the main shaft they rotate freely around it...they are keyed to the IAR Sleeve instead.
Why would you do this? Why to allow the Main Gear Shaft to float up and down of course! :o
What Abu has done is anchor the IAR Sleeve axially and instead when you adjust the Star the Gear Shaft and the entire drag stack itself is what moves the small amount to increase or decrease the drag setting. And because the drag stack is what actually is being adjusted up and down there is zero effect of the OWC on drag settings and you can increase or decrease the drag setting regardless of load. ;D
A contact at Abu had this to say:
"The IAR sleeve does not only lock the metal drag washer at the top of the drag stack, it also locks the metal drag washer between the carbon matrix washers. It does that so that no major pressure from the drag is applied to the crank shaft. This allows the crank shaft to slide freely even under extreme drag pressure...this allows you to reduce drag under load (as the Shaft moves freely with adjustments of the Star) and not only when a fish runs and you have to wait for the fish to stop and the pressure on the drag (and OWC) releases the IAR Sleeve so that you can reduce drag."
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_50_00_191101166.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19111)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_59_191071154.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19108)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_58_191051830.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19106)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_59_19109364.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19110)
So, let that sink in a bit and as usual I will be available for questions (that I hope I can answer)... ;D ;D ;D...it has taken more than a few days playing with the reel and asking the engineers at Abu (what are probably) silly questions to wrap my head around the whole concept. It's hard to show exactly how it works even when it is in your hands (let alone photographs) but the basic idea is that the IAR sleeve that we traditionally use to compress the drag stack cannot move in and out in the Beast, only rotate normally, and instead the stack itself moves so it is independent of the OWC binding the Sleeve and allows the drag to be adjusted regardless of load.
This is not your ordinary Bait Casting reel :D.
Other Features of the Revo Toro Beast: One of the troubles with wider bait casters can be the Thumb Bar that often becomes difficult to depress and return with use as some dirt builds up. The Beast addresses this with a more narrow frame (reduces twist of the Bar) as well as a more positive link with a stainless Clutch Link that more positively connects to the Clutch Plate than previously and a longer "throw" or distance the Thumb Bar travels to increase leverage:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_50_190871911.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19088)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_50_01_191141651.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19115)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_50_190851019.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19086)
Note the brass Bushing inserted into the frame where the Clutch Spring inserts. A very nice touch to prevent the Spring from abrading the coating on the frame that would lead to corrosion.
One of the other nice things about the more narrow frame of the Beast is that besides feeling more stable fighting a heavy fish it also casts a little farther. This is because the Beast has a disengaging level wind mechanism (the LW is not synced to the spool so that when you depress the Thumb Bar the LW is also out of gear). With wide reels a synced LW is important so that the line coming off of the spool and the line guide are in good orientation to each other to reduce stress. With a more narrow reel this is not necessary as the angle is never that acute and the lack of friction from the LW mechanism cycling back and forth increases casting distance.
The Beast uses a Brass Worm Shaft that is Titanium Nitride coated for increased durability (things like this matter when the LW mechanism is retrieving heavier baits):
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_58_191062134.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19107)
A look at the Level Wind Gear assemblies:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_58_191041481.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19105)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_57_1910274.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19103)
The photo does not show it well but Abu has also made a long looked for solution to the Brake Knob on the right side. It now has a tiny lip that makes it much easier to grasp with large fingers or gloved hands:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_50_00_191132132.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19114)
The Palm Side Plate when removed shows us the cast control features Abu has put into the reel. It features an externally adjustable Magnetic Cast Control for fine tuning your braking needs:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_55_1909953.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19100)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_52_190902373.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19091)
Whereas the spool has Centrifugal brakes that are adjusted by removing the Palm Side Plate and clicked on or off as needed. You will probably leave them all on when using large baits as the reel is a very "fast" caster.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_56_19100357.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19101)
The Beast also comes with 3 handles:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_50_00_191111633.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19112)
Can't beat a Quarter for getting off the concave slotted caps:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_54_19095166.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19096)
And found that the handle knobs use bushings rather than bearings (I couldn't resist a little grease :) ):
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_54_190962072.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19097)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_55_190972004.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19098)
And a size comparison photo with Revo NaCl 60 and Okuma Komodo 364:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_14_07_17_2_49_55_190981364.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19099)
That is what I have for now pending requests for clarification :).
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Ok, so to be sure this is a PREVIEW of a pre-production reel intended to give the first guys interested in these reels some information before they buy.
I have taken the reel out several times for casting to see how it feels and all I can say is it's a rocket! And extremely smooth on the retrieve. I haven't taken it offshore yet or hooked anything at all so I cannot say how this new drag system or other features will truly play out on big fish or how it will all hold up over time. That is months down the road like it is with any new reel.
I hope the sneak peek, explanation of technical features and photos of reel porn have provided a worthy read. :)
Clearly, the Revo Toro Beast is a significant evolution of the Revo line directly addressing some of the shortcomings of the Revo NaCl with an improved Thumb Bar and more narrow geometry. The Power Stack Carbon Matrix Drag System has the potential to change the way bait casting reels are built. Time will tell if it holds true to what appears to be a remarkable innovation.
Abu Garcia has put the reel through the testing phase with dozens of guys before finalizing this design and is shipping this revolutionary concept in drag management and big fish baitcasting this fall. Hopefully I and some of you readers will have some early success with the reel and share it with this community.
Let me know what you think! ;D
Excellent write up John, that is precise and easy to understand. You add captions to photos that are simple to follow.
I am exclusively a LP reel man, or I seldom use my spinners these days, so wondered if it was not time that there was a section on this site, that was dedicated to all matters relevant to bait casters. You would be the ideal candidate to be a moderator.
Just a thought that Alan and company may consider.
Thanks,
Terry.
Boy howdy! John is definitely mod material.
I haven't even gotten my Lexa's wet and he springs this on me though. I'm gonna pretend I have never heard of this Beast?
Nice work as always John.
Looks to me like that rod would fish Redfish snd Snook, maybe small Tarpon. A lot of features there, and it doesn't look difficult to service. I have never owned a Diawa, but I know some of the pros fish this reel. Looks like a good design overall. I am not sure about the frame, and long term corrosion issues if not properly cared for, but it is a tool, and may be the right on for certain jobs.
Excellent write-up John! Any chance you can get your hands on a 6500 beast for a write-up?
Cheers,
Andrew
Sheesh, I'm totally not getting how this drag issue solution works. ??? And also, my Daiwa Millionaire 200BB seems to have a similar drag system design, but you're saying this is a new thing?
I like narrower but taller! What is the black tub holding the drag made of? How does turning the handle turn the spool if the gear shaft doesn't connect to the washers? I like lots of handles too!
excellent, thank you very much
Quote from: Zimbass on August 12, 2015, 05:36:08 AM
Excellent write up John, that is precise and easy to understand. You add captions to photos that are simple to follow.
I am exclusively a LP reel man, or I seldom use my spinners these days, so wondered if it was not time that there was a section on this site, that was dedicated to all matters relevant to bait casters. You would be the ideal candidate to be a moderator.
Just a thought that Alan and company may consider.
Thanks,
Terry.
Oh no, lol. The real mods are cool-headed types with the Patience of Job. ;D
TBH I like the idea of all of the Shimano reels with Shimanos, Daiwa with Daiwa...These reels definitely have unique concerns but they are all brothers of the other types. I like the cross-pollination in the general forums. Maybe a baitcaster guy will look at a lever drag tutorial that way and learn something.
Quote from: Ruffy on August 12, 2015, 08:22:25 AM
Excellent write-up John! Any chance you can get your hands on a 6500 beast for a write-up?
Cheers,
Andrew
That surely is a beautiful reel. Machined one piece aluminum frame and Made in Sweden. It would be nice to take a look. :)
Quote from: nelz on August 12, 2015, 02:15:12 PM
Sheesh, I'm totally not getting how this drag issue solution works. ??? And also, my Daiwa Millionaire 200BB seems to have a similar drag system design, but you're saying this is a new thing?
Yep! Totally new.
At least as far as I know ;D.
Abu Garcia just recently patented the concept http://www.google.com/patents/US8807471 so not sure just what system your Millionaire may have. The schematics of Millionaire reels I looked at all seemed to be the traditional way of using the sleeve with the same trouble releasing under load.
Quote from: MarkT on August 12, 2015, 02:20:26 PM
I like narrower but taller! What is the black tub holding the drag made of? How does turning the handle turn the spool if the gear shaft doesn't connect to the washers? I like lots of handles too!
The black tub is the Washer Drum and it is a "hi-tech synthetic polymer" that is very heat resistant. The drum is keyed to the gear by some bumps underneath it (you can see the holes in the Main Gear to accept those bumps in the photos). The Carbon Matrix washers are keyed to the Drum. The Stainless washers turn the Drum due to their friction with the carbon washers (depending on drag setting).
The Stainless washers are keyed to the IAR Sleeve. So when the Sleeve turns the washers must turn. But not being keyed to the shaft they can float up and down on the shaft as it moves up and down with drag adjustment.
Lastly the IAR is keyed to the Main Gear Shaft just like normal. So when you turn the handle you turn the IAR Sleeve which turns the washers that turn the Drum that turns the Gear.
Like many ingenious solutions it seems complicated but is simple in concept (engineering it all and building it is another thing entirely). We are so familiar with the regular way star drags work we understand it well. This is not really more complicated, just unfamiliar to us. :)
great preview, it surely got my attention this new reel from Abu, which I have to say Im a fanboy
love my 6500c3, my 7000c and my 5000c
"too bad" the reel market is moving forward faster than my wallet, I havent save enough to get me a tranx or a fathom 2-speed, or a new calcutta 400D, when the new abu 6500 beast comes to play, as well as this revo toro beast.
this is like seeing the new offerings for modern sport cars.
Quote from: Rancanfish on August 12, 2015, 06:11:13 AM
Boy howdy! John is definitely mod material.
I haven't even gotten my Lexa's wet and he springs this on me though. I'm gonna pretend I have never heard of this Beast?
Same here...well kinda.. I have a yet to be fished Okuma Komodo 264. I have played with it a bit and will be carrying it to Alaska next month for its workout if I don't get into some big carp this weekend with it.
Maybe a Beast is in my future, maybe not. All my LP reels are either Okuma or Abu's and I came close to tossing a coin on the NaCL vs the Komodo. A little more thinking and the Komodo got the nod without flipping a coin. SS internals, drag power like no LP baitcaster should have and free spool to die for. No mag-cast control either....it's all thumb and one of my first casts took the line down to the last 3 wraps on the arbor.
The extra wide NACL spool was not appealing to me despite the Komodo's aspect of lack of line capacity. Over 300 feet of 65# works for my needs.
JDT- thanks for posting this on the Revo Beast. I like the IAR/drag innovation and the choice of handles.
BTW- any dollar figure to stick on the Beast, yet? I haven't looked around, yet, but I'm guessing 3 and half bills if not closer to 4.
EDIT- just found that it is $350 MSRP and line capacity is 100 yards of 65# POWER PRO Slick...about the same capacity in that line weight as the Komodo.
That drag drum better be heat resistant because it's acting as an insulator for the washers! I like the design and I'll look at getting one once they're available. The NaCl 60 is too wide for me but the Beast looks just right!
Quote from: MarkT on August 12, 2015, 04:58:36 PM
That drag drum better be heat resistant because it's acting as an insulator for the washers! I like the design and I'll look at getting one once they're available. The NaCl 60 is too wide for me but the Beast looks just right!
Yea, that was one of my first questions for the Engineers at Abu...However, the amount of heat it sees is probably pretty low as the carbon fiber washers are always insulating the Drum from the Stainless washers. The carbon fiber washers are quite thick and their probably is little heat on the other side of them.
Dunno for sure! I hope to find a Tuna to take a nice long run on one soon. :)
FWIW this reel and the Revo Toro S replace the Toro NaCl so Abu agrees!
Quote from: Steve-O on August 12, 2015, 04:44:57 PM
Quote from: Rancanfish on August 12, 2015, 06:11:13 AM
Boy howdy! John is definitely mod material.
I haven't even gotten my Lexa's wet and he springs this on me though. I'm gonna pretend I have never heard of this Beast?
Same here...well kinda.. I have a yet to be fished Okuma Komodo 264. I have played with it a bit and will be carrying it to Alaska next month for its workout if I don't get into some big carp this weekend with it.
Maybe a Beast is in my future, maybe not. All my LP reels are either Okuma or Abu's and I came close to tossing a coin on the NaCL vs the Komodo. A little more thinking and the Komodo got the nod without flipping a coin. SS internals, drag power like no LP baitcaster should have and free spool to die for. No mag-cast control either....it's all thumb and one of my first casts took the line down to the last 3 wraps on the arbor.
The extra wide NACL spool was not appealing to me despite the Komodo's aspect of lack of line capacity. Over 300 feet of 65# works for my needs.
JDT- thanks for posting this on the Revo Beast. I like the IAR/drag innovation and the choice of handles.
BTW- any dollar figure to stick on the Beast, yet? I haven't looked around, yet, but I'm guessing 3 and half bills if not closer to 4.
EDIT- just found that it is $350 MSRP and line capacity is 100 yards of 65# POWER PRO Slick...about the same capacity in that line weight as the Komodo.
There is also the Revo Toro S that uses most of the same internals as the Beast with a MSRP of $249. Comes with only one handle etc but will be a great way to get introduced to the new ergoomcs without going all in.
In the "60" size the Toro Beast and S should have a little more capacity than the Komodo.
Quote from: steelfish on August 12, 2015, 04:31:44 PM
great preview, it surely got my attention this new reel from Abu, which I have to say Im a fanboy
love my 6500c3, my 7000c and my 5000c
"too bad" the reel market is moving forward faster than my wallet, I havent save enough to get me a tranx or a fathom 2-speed, or a new calcutta 400D, when the new abu 6500 beast comes to play, as well as this revo toro beast.
this is like seeing the new offerings for modern sport cars.
Whenever I get inside something like this I always marvel at the obvious time to engineer and commitment to build the precision parts inside these reels. I can only imagine what it takes to make the mold for something like the Clutch Plate, and make it perfectly.
I also feel I need to pet my old Jigmaster 501 and tell her everything will be just fine, she may not get out to play much anymore but I still love her :D.
Obviously old workhorses are all that is strictly required to catch a fish with rod and reel...but for all day casting the "sports cars" come into their own and all the features put into them make the performance amazing for casting, casting, casting which I normally do until I can cast no more from the workout. Every tiny little feature really adds up in that case.
You don't need a very advanced reel to soak bait. But if you are gonna cast all day these reels have gained the reputation they have for a reason. ;)
yep, I totally understand, but my wife doest ;D :D
I love my lexa 300hsp, the calcutta 400TE to cast light irons and spoons all day
love the 113h with few tweaks, the baja special and TLD II for trolling and bait fishing
and the fathom 40 star and trini 16 are always ready to cast the heavy irons and jigs.
a nice mix (IMO) between old muscle cars and new sport cars..
That is quite a big step up for Abu. I like the giant drag. Not sure why it needs to be in a plastic cassette (cost, i suppose), but cool anyways.
I was well aware of the fact that an IAR locks axially as well as radially. I just didn't realize it was actually something anyone was concerned about. Glad to see the Abu guys thinking & making new stuff.
Incidentally,
QuoteAbu Garcia just recently patented the concept http://www.google.com/patents/US8807471....
Well, sort of... that patent is actually for what appears to be the Penn Squall, which explains why the application was filed 3½ years ago, and issued a year ago. (One of the engineers is from Abu; the other has been with Penn for a long time. The third engineer is someone else entirely). I suppose they can help each other at Pure Fishing nowadays. That is a pretty big development. If I recall Patrik S's own words from some time ago, Abu was quite restrictive with patents. Maybe that has changed along with the corporate structure.
.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on August 12, 2015, 07:55:45 PM
That is quite a big step up for Abu. I like the giant drag. Not sure why it needs to be in a plastic cassette (cost, i suppose), but cool anyways.
I was well aware of the fact that an IAR locks axially as well as radially. I just didn't realize it was actually something anyone was concerned about. Glad to see the Abu guys thinking & making new stuff.
Incidentally, QuoteAbu Garcia just recently patented the concept http://www.google.com/patents/US8807471....
Well, sort of... that patent is actually for what appears to be the Penn Squall, which explains why the application was filed 3½ years ago, and issued a year ago. (One of the engineers is from Abu; the other has been with Penn for a long time. The third engineer is someone else entirely). I suppose they can help each other at Pure Fishing nowadays. That is a pretty big development. If I recall Patrik S's own words from some time ago, Abu was quite restrictive with patents. Maybe that has changed along with the corporate structure.
I asked about the choice of the Drum and the answer I was given was that it simplified assembly (meaning what all parts were going to be needed to make it work). The Drum fulfills several functions including a keying of the Carbon washers (to make both surfaces functional) as well as providing a washer under the Drag Bushing if I recall correctly. This may have cured several engineering problems in one step and helped lighten the gear too.
This is the sort of thing I tend to take at face value given the difficuclty of getting something this complex made. Just like any other innovation we'll have to see how it functions over time. I blindly assume it is perfect and go use it until something comes up :).
The Squall uses the standard arrangement of sleeve to drag, IIRC, I think the "generic" star drag reel in the Patent is just that or may have been something that Penn considered and then decided to go the simpler way to keep costs down. I too am glad to see that things are still being refined at Abu Garcia. There is a fine tradition of innovation there.
Thanks for showing this to us John, great job as usual. The insert is very interesting, could you show a shot of the under side, but only if the reel is still apart.
Thanks!
Quote from: Alto Mare on August 12, 2015, 10:05:28 PM
Thanks for showing this to us John, great job as usual. The insert is very interesting, could you show a shot of the under side, but only if the reel is still apart.
Thanks!
Thanks Sal :).
The reel is back together now but I made this image to help:
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/haugusnord010/426d2db0-4b2a-4365-86a8-6c6bf0d64879_zpsngacasyt.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/haugusnord/media/haugusnord010/426d2db0-4b2a-4365-86a8-6c6bf0d64879_zpsngacasyt.jpg.html)
The ABCD slots correspond to "posts" (molded short pins) on the backside of the Drum to key it to the main gear. Other than the posts it is a smooth surface. The other small cuts in the Main Gear shown in red are key slots for the Level Wind Gear (that mates underneath). You can just see the white synthetic material in the slots if you look carefully.
Needless to say, for other drum type inserts this sort of simple keying might be useful to your projects modding drag stacks. If short pins were pressed into the back of a drum (like dog posts into a bridge) and holes drilled in the gear they would mate perfectly securely. :)
Thanks John! I like it, but being made of plastic, I'm not sure the pins would hold up on other reels with higher drag settings.
I'm sure they will do just fine on this reel.
Not related to this reel, but very similar, as for holding the insert from the bottom.
My good friend Tom (Irish Jigger ) made me this a couple of years back:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/003_32.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/003_32.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/005_25.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/005_25.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/006_21.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/006_21.jpg.html)
Thank you John.
Sal
Interesting stuff. If tye washers are not fitted tightly to the drive shaft, it should allow for effective drag adjustment under pressure, provided an arb bearing or something else doesn't 'grab' the shaft.
Sal, that looks like the same concept! But ya know, that Abu insert isn't plastic, it's a "composite material". Yeah, I hear graphite, or composite, and think "plastic". But don't you know, plastics are the future, at least if you remember the "The Graduate".
Quote from: MarkT on August 13, 2015, 12:50:02 AM
Sal, that looks like the same concept! But ya know, that Abu insert isn't plastic, it's a "composite material". Yeah, I hear graphite, or composite, and think "plastic". But don't you know, plastics are the future, at least if you remember the "The Graduate".
You are correct!
Fibre-reinforced plastic is much stronger than plastic.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 13, 2015, 12:29:58 AM
Interesting stuff. If the washers are not fitted tightly to the drive shaft, it should allow for effective drag adjustment under pressure, provided an arb bearing or something else doesn't 'grab' the shaft.
The IAR Sleeve of course is keyed to the Shaft, but the Clutch grabs it and not the Shaft. The Shaft slides freely inside the IAR Sleeve to adjust the drag. ;)
probably missed it but anyway is it synchronised levelwind system? thanks...
Excellent breakdown on this reel. Muskie guys are forever buying new reels so I am sure this one will be a hit.
thanks John
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 13, 2015, 12:29:58 AM
Interesting stuff. If tye washers are not fitted tightly to the drive shaft, it should allow for effective drag adjustment under pressure, provided an arb bearing or something else doesn't 'grab' the shaft.
Exactly right. The IAR Sleeve is grabbed, but the shaft floats up and down through it.
Quote from: MeL B on August 20, 2015, 01:58:14 AM
probably missed it but anyway is it synchronised levelwind system? thanks...
Didn't mean to miss this one Mel, sorry for the late reply.
No, the LW mechanism is not synced to the spool when casting (does not cycle back and forth as line pays out). This is necessary with wider reels like the NaCl 60 as the angle between the Line Guide and the far side of the spool can be acute. With a far more narrow spool and a slightly stretched geometry there is no need as the angle is never so severe. It actually hurts casting distance to sync the LW in a narrow reel and my own casting has found that to be true, the Revo Toro Beast casts better than a NaCl (which was already a good caster).
May be less true with Mono, but the vast majority will be using braid with this reel. If someone fishes one with mono then they are perhaps unclear on the concept and should be using a smaller reel less engineered for heavy drag (because they can't get enough heavy mono on there to utilize the drag capabilities.
Any updates on the reel? Has anyone had a chance to put it through the paces? Looking for something to use in the GOM for casting plugs, eels and the larger waxwings for cobia, jacks and whatever else may be lurking. Thanks
Quote from: trevore on March 27, 2016, 04:17:36 PM
Any updates on the reel? Has anyone had a chance to put it through the paces? Looking for something to use in the GOM for casting plugs, eels and the larger waxwings for cobia, jacks and whatever else may be lurking. Thanks
Personally I have only used it in Norcal for normal sized rockfish and small lings, nothing that remotely tests the reel. Guys have been using them in SoCal for all species and are loving the reel.
Tackletour did a review of the lower gear ratio and found smooth drag to over 25lbs which is pretty remarkable for an 11oz reel. Unless you get into bruiser tuna (ie over 75lbs) pretty sure you are going to have no trouble on your GOM target species.
Tackletour review:
http://www.tackletour.com/review15aburevotorbeast.html
I'm glad everyone likes them but I'll keep my Albacore Special. To much to go wrong and get tied up. I've tried to land a large mouth on a reel like that while trying to clear a birds nest, a yellowtail? No thank you.
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on March 27, 2016, 09:28:02 PM
I'm glad everyone likes them but I'll keep my Albacore Special. To much to go wrong and get tied up. I've tried to land a large mouth on a reel like that while trying to clear a birds nest, a yellowtail? No thank you.
Ron
Absolutely. If I had to pick one reel to last forever and it was the only reel I would ever have then it is impossible to beat a quality 3/0 star drag reel for capability and reliability and ease of service.
But, if I had to pick one conventional reel to fish for a day of fishing, one that I could have the most possible fun with, I would happily fish this reel over any other. Far more versatile than a standard star drag. Does everything better except troll. ;)
Best
Do this reel has a backup stopper in the gut ?
Quote from: Eason mun on March 28, 2016, 03:49:11 AM
Do this reel has a backup stopper in the gut ?
Yep. And a particularly good clutch as compared to the Tranx and Lexa (more and longer needles plus better handle support (2 bearings one on either side of the roller clutch).
Quote from: johndtuttle on March 28, 2016, 03:54:51 AM
Quote from: Eason mun on March 28, 2016, 03:49:11 AM
Do this reel has a backup stopper in the gut ?
Yep. And a particularly good clutch as compared to the Tranx and Lexa (more and longer needles plus better handle support (2 bearings one on either side of the roller clutch).
Thank you sir 😊
SO, just for the sake of discussion, again I'm glad you love the reel, what exactly makes this reel more fun than a 3/0 star drag? Lets say a 112H with a Narrow tib kit and all the bells and whistles.
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on March 29, 2016, 05:52:15 AM
SO, just for the sake of discussion, again I'm glad you love the reel, what exactly makes this reel more fun than a 3/0 star drag? Lets say a 112H with a Narrow tib kit and all the bells and whistles.
Ron
The Revo Toro Beast family is vastly better casting with straight braid.
This enables far more variety in the types of lures thrown. Poppers, stick baits, large rubber, spooks. Real distance with ultralight lures: Bucktails, small swimbaits, small lipped plugs etc. Casts a live bait better too and fishes one better with a lighter spool.
Braid goes through the air better, and is vastly stronger for its thickness so you can use heavier drag.
Really, for even moderately accomplished casters a 112H is limited to Surface Iron and Wahoo Iron (heavy and dense stuff) on straight mono top shots. There is a guy out there that can use it for everything of course, the vast majority will do better with a better reel for casting.
Instead of a straight 40 lb mono top shot I cast poppers on 50 lb braid to 60-100 lb leaders.
A 112H with all the bells and whistles is going to be somewhere around 22 oz. These reels weigh 11 oz. and make the same (or better if the 112H is not fully modded) drag pressure.
The only thing a 112H does better is troll, especially 3lbs of lead like we do on the party boats in NorCal. ;D
If you want stainless steel gearing then there is Komodo and Lexa HD. And the main gear on a Toro Beast is far larger than that of a 112H with corresponding strength (albeit at a higher gear ratio, generally). But a Revo Toro Beast at 4.9:1 has a massively strong main gear and remarkable cranking power. It gains smoothness with brass gearing (a personal quibble, but for all day casting its noticeable) at some loss of ultimate strength.
A fully modded 112h is over $400. These can be found in the $175-$225 range in this class (Okuma Komodo, Lexa 400 and Revo Toro S). The Toro Beast is particularly refined and is $299 if bargain hunting.
If I wanted a reel to last forever and be simple to work on the standard well made 3/0 reel is a great one reel to fish.
If I wanted a conventional reel for casting lures that I could max the fun meter on whether shore casting, live baiting or popping offshore then I would fish a Revo Toro Beast.
Excellent explanation John. I can take that info right to the boss. ;D
She's always shocked when I put a reel up for sale.
I can't wait to try the Lexa out this year for rockies & lings.
But the Abu holds a sudden fascination to me...hmmm.
Thanks for feedback.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/haugusnord013/P1030361_zpsohd1mw2e.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/haugusnord/media/haugusnord013/P1030361_zpsohd1mw2e.jpg.html)
Can anyone tell me how to get this bearing off this shaft? Anyone tried yet. Reel took an extended trip in the surf when I turtled my kayak. Its the only one I can't get to.
Quote from: trevore on August 01, 2016, 03:45:52 AM
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/haugusnord013/P1030361_zpsohd1mw2e.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/haugusnord/media/haugusnord013/P1030361_zpsohd1mw2e.jpg.html)
Can anyone tell me how to get this bearing off this shaft? Anyone tried yet. Reel took an extended trip in the surf when I turtled my kayak. Its the only one I can't get to.
Its held on above and below by circle clips. when replacing it you have to be sure that the teeth on the AR Sleeve are properly seated in the drag washers to get the clip back in the slot on the sleeve.
Thanks John, but thats the problem the clips keep turning around the shaft and I can't seem to find a way to prevent it.
Quote from: trevore on August 05, 2016, 11:18:35 PM
Thanks John, but thats the problem the clips keep turning around the shaft and I can't seem to find a way to prevent it.
It should be no trouble if the clips turn, as long as they are in their grooves to anchor the bearing on the sleeve. They don't prevent turning around the shaft, just prevent the bearing from moving up and down to prevent axial movement of sleeve, instead letting the drive shaft move.
ps. If you mean moving when trying to remove them I think I used 2 tools, one to lift out the lip of the rings, the other to prevent the other from turning.
Try using two sharp awls or two stout needles. One to hold one end of the clip and prevent the clip from spinning and the second to work under the other end of the clip to pop it out.
-steve
So, after reading this thread, took out my Lexa 400, torqued down the drag to lift a 5 lb. dumbbell, then tried to drop it by losening the drag, no way! Man!, I never realized it before. This really changes things... The Swedes use a little too much of various types of plastic on their now-a-days reels for my taste, but they do great job of engineering solutions to a-lot of these annoying little issues. I only have one made in Sweden Ambassedur from the mid-80's, but the "graphite" has never cracked or broken.
Gfish
Today, using my Shimano Torium 16, I's jigging a spoon over a reef and hung up. A stiff wind was blowing the kayak west and before I knew it, line was too tight--- couldn't release drag pressure, and the 20 lb. leader popped. This axial ARB pressure thing sucks! The Jigmaster's gonna see more action from now on... Question: can a reel with a locked drag 'cause of the ARB, under about 15 lbs. of pulling pressure from the line, be shifted into freespool without damaging it?
Gfish
Can someone find a schematic for the Revo T2 BST 60-hs?
Quote from: surecatchbilly on August 11, 2016, 03:51:01 PM
Can someone find a schematic for the Revo T2 BST 60-hs?
They are there on the Abu site, but are a PITA to find. Good luck. :)
Thanks,I've looked a lot at their site,I'll keep looking.I found one at Mikes,but the levelwind gears are different.I'm working on a reel just like the one you reviewed
I took a brief look to see if I got lucky but didn't see one. I would email their customer service at Spirit Lake and see if they can send you a .pdf of one.
I used the one that came with the reel.
best
Thanks
Is this the one ?
http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/content/purefishing/Abu%20Garcia/Schematics/REVO%20TORO%2060-HS%20%2018%2002.pdf
Terry.
Quote from: Zimbass on August 12, 2016, 03:57:57 AM
Is this the one ?
http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/content/purefishing/Abu%20Garcia/Schematics/REVO%20TORO%2060-HS%20%2018%2002.pdf
Terry.
Thank you for that but I am afraid not. :'(
They are not an easy site to navigate, even if the reel foot numbers are known.
You win some, lose some :(
Thanks John.
Terry.
I have a schematic if you still need it. I'll have to scan it to get a pdf version. I can do that tomorrow
Hers a pic
I just noticed that there's one of these in my garage. My son must've brought one home to add to the collection.
Hey John, what a great piece you've written and I only just found it. None of this new Toro Beast or WM 60 or LJ4 had visited my workshop, sadly :(
I haven't visited here a while and just recently found this thread while looking for an info for modifications on the Toro Beast since a client said he ordered drag clicker for this reel from Pure Fishing. Has anyone any knowledge about adding a drag clicker to the Toro Beast?
It took me a while to digest what was really going on. I looked through the photos of the reels I've serviced and only after that I had the lightbulb moment! Hahaha silly me, thanks for pointing it out quite clearly. I also think that having none of the drag plates keyed to the drive shaft helps minimize the binding effect too. At first I thought Shimano had some reels with the IAR sleeve keyed to the drag plates, then the sleeve is not keyed to the drive shaft and the plate is keyed to the drive shaft. It's also unique to find the common 'drive shaft bearing' now placed on the IAR sleeve instead.
With the reel having a semi-synchronized levelwind (since the levelwind gear is tied to the main gear), in theory the line would remain synced to the levelwind when fish is pulling out the line until it passes the point where it last 'synchronized', this point being the end of the cast where you hit the fish. That means if the line goes further out than this point, the line guide and the line of the spool could start moving in opposite ways. I just hope it doesn't happen much and the levelwind system will hold and not break...Several previous gen Daiwa baitcasters had this configuration
Anyways John, I don't think I'm the only person who read your piece and thinks I gotta have one now hahaha
Quote from: mahfudzmn on March 11, 2017, 07:20:57 PMHey John, what a great piece you've written and I only just found it. None of this new Toro Beast or WM 60 or LJ4 had visited my workshop, sadly :(
I haven't visited here a while and just recently found this thread while looking for an info for modifications on the Toro Beast since a client said he ordered drag clicker for this reel from Pure Fishing. Has anyone any knowledge about adding a drag clicker to the Toro Beast?
It took me a while to digest what was really going on. I looked through the photos of the reels I've serviced and only after that I had the lightbulb moment! Hahaha silly me, thanks for pointing it out quite clearly. I also think that having none of the drag plates keyed to the drive shaft helps minimize the binding effect too. At first I thought Shimano had some reels with the IAR sleeve keyed to the drag plates, then the sleeve is not keyed to the drive shaft and the plate is keyed to the drive shaft. It's also unique to find the common 'drive shaft bearing' now placed on the IAR sleeve instead.
With the reel having a semi-synchronized levelwind (since the levelwind gear is tied to the main gear), in theory the line would remain synced to the levelwind when fish is pulling out the line until it passes the point where it last 'synchronized', this point being the end of the cast where you hit the fish. That means if the line goes further out than this point, the line guide and the line of the spool could start moving in opposite ways. I just hope it doesn't happen much and the levelwind system will hold and not break...Several previous gen Daiwa baitcasters had this configuration
Anyways John, I don't think I'm the only person who read your piece and thinks I gotta have one now hahaha
The Penn Fathom LP reel is essentially the same reel. Still my pick for most refined in this class of ~3-400 sized reels.
-John