June 27, 2016
This morning I did a little testing on the anti reverse bearing in my Shimano Trinidad TN 40. I will post my findings at the bottom so as not to farther interfere with the main topic of this post.
josa1
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June, 2016
Hi Everyone,
Just returned from the Red Rooster III June Heat 2016 extravaganza, had a great time, 3rd place jackpot tie with Michael Gooing at 201 pounds. Had a great trip and loads of fun..
Now.....down to the serious stuff. I plan on servicing my Trinidad 40s which performed very well as usual, and as you might imagine, I will include the anti reverse bearings.
When I'm finished with the service I plan to leave out the anti reverse dog :o . I then plan to run some tests on the reel without the dog in place.
What I plan to do is mount the reel on the normal rod I use, CalStar 700H, hook the line to my scale and FIND OUT JUST WHERE IN THE HECK THE ANTI REVERSE BEARING FAILS TO FUNCTION AS DESIGNED!!!!!
I would like to include any thing you would like me to check in this very serious scientific endeavor ;D. ::) Let me know and, if possible I'll do it. It should be great fun for us all!
josa1
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July 2014 Update.....I am in the process of servicing three Shimano Trinidad reels and found that I could adequately service these bearings by just removing the cage from the bearing housing while leaving the housing in the reel sideplate. This saves a lot of time, and as mentioned below it is sometimes difficult to remove the bearing housing from the sideplate.
The process was the same, just pushed the bearing cage out of the housing by reaching thru the drive shaft hole in the right side plate with my removal tool. The cages came out easily. I suppose the only time you'd have to remove the housing if you are concerned about rust or corrosion on the outside.
josa1
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I just returned from a long range trip on the RRIII and have been cleaning my fishing reels. As I was working on a Shimano Trinidad 40 the thought occurred to me that I should clean and lube the anti reverse bearing. In doing so, I thought I might as well try my first post on this site.
Alan has a nice tutorial on how to service this reel so I will only address the process I use to clean and relube these bearings.
Here is the right side plate that has been removed from the reel. The shaft sleeve is still inside the bearing.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_02_19667260.jpeg)
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(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_32_19697830.jpeg)
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With the sleeve removed you can see that the bearing is pretty dirty but doesn't appear to be damaged. Notice the two cuts in the plastic bearing cage. I use these cuts as a means to be sure I get the bearing back together properly. There are no cuts on the back side of the cage that is installed into the bearing housing. Note that I have made small marks on the side plate to indicate where the cuts are aligned.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_31_196961784.jpeg)
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Here are the things I'll use to remove, clean and relube the bearing. Note that the degreaser I used is Paint Clean-Up by Kleen Strip. This cleaner is no longer available, which is a sad thing because it did such a great degreasing job.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_05_196691420.jpeg)
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I use a 10 mm socket to remove the bearing from the side plate as recommended by Alan's tutorial. This bearing was the "tightest" that I've removed. When a couple of solid taps didn't remove the bearing I took the side plate to the kitchen sink and ran hot water over it for a couple of minutes. After the plate was pretty warm the bearing came out pretty easily. Remember, sometimes it's not always the best idea to get a bigger hammer!
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_09_196731561.jpeg)
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In this photo you can see the bearing is almost all the way out of the plate.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_10_196741283.jpeg)
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The side plate recess is fairly clean, I'll clean it farther before I reinstall the bearing.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_11_196761334.jpeg)
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(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_12_196771132.jpeg)
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In this photo I'm removing the bearing cage from the bearing housing. I use a sharp pointed awl to just catch the edge of the cage on the back side. The cage usually comes out easily. This one was no different. I thought this might leave a mark on the cage, or worse, but it didn't.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_13_196781972.jpeg)
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The bearing housing, bearing cage and bearing rollers are dirty but, as a good thing, there is no corrosion or rust. The lubrication residue is very sticky, I believe from the incursion of grease into the bearing. It is my belief that grease along with water and salt is what causes the bearing to fail to operate properly.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_13_196791600.jpeg)
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(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_14_196801580.jpeg)
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The roller bearings will typically fall right out of the cage. Because of the stickiness of the lube, I had to push these out.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_15_196811272.jpeg)
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Further indication the service was required, a lot of dirt. Note that there are 8 rollers. If you come up with 7 when it comes time for reassembly there will be a problem!
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_15_196822435.jpeg)
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Add some cleaner to the bowl, I like a small glass bowl for these operations. The cleaner I used to use for this is no longer available so I've deleted the reference to it here. I brushed thoroughly with the solution, removing all contamination from the bearing components. I ended up using a flux brush because it seemed to get into the nooks and crannies of the bearing cage better than the tooth brush.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_17_196831848.jpeg)
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Here the bearing components have been thoroughly cleaned and blown dry. You can see they are pretty spotless. And let me see, YES!, I still have 8 rollers!
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_18_196841578.jpeg)
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Here, I'm putting the rollers back into the cage. The best thing I've found so far to hold the rollers in the cage is a rubber band with a loose overhand knot tied in it. It is better to use a thin, light weight band unlike the one I have here. Also, you have to be able to move the rubber band easily to insert the rollers so you can't tighten it too much. When I'm having a lot of problems getting the rollers to stay in place I put the sleeve back into the bearing to provide inside support, The rollers will go all of the way through the cage. In this case, I didn't seem to have any problem.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_18_196852445.jpeg)
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Here all the rollers are reinstalled into the cage.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_20_19686318.jpeg)
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I lube the inside of the bearing housing with ReelX.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_21_196872285.jpeg)
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Start the bearing cage back into the housing with the rubber band still in place.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_22_196882221.jpeg)
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The rubber band pops off..
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_23_196892012.jpeg)
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You can then push the cage back into the housing. It snaps into a place with a satisfying click! Barely visible are the cut marks that I mentioned earlier, the cage is back in its original position. In this photo you can see the plastic preload springs that I believe push the bearings into the normal from the backspin lock position.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_24_19690854.jpeg)
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After lubing with Reelx, I install the shaft sleeve and turn it to see that the bearing is working correctly. In this case it was working smoothly so we can reinstall it in the side plate.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_25_196912268.jpeg)
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I clean the side plate thoroughly.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_26_19692939.jpeg)
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Lube with ReelX.....
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_28_196931811.jpeg)
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.....and reinstall the bearing.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_28_19694106.jpeg)
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And just to be sure...Install the sleeve and check for proper operation. At this point I also add another couple of drops of Reelx.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/1203_25_07_17_3_43_32_19697830.jpeg)
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Finished! This process took about 30 minutes but would have taken much less time if I hadn't been taking the pictures, adjusting lighting, etc. I now have confidence that the bearing will work correctly on my next trip.
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June, 2015
Here are a couple of new pictures I took of an anti reverse bearing that I couldn't save. I did the service noted in the post, but the interior of the outer bearing race was badly corroded where the rollers were setting. I actually used the Torium 30 reel that these pictures came from to catch a couple of nice wahoo on a recent trip after I had cleaned and reassembled it. However, I found out that under heavy drag loads that the reel anti reverse would transfer to the dog with an audible "clack". Now, I'll have to replace this one but I really don't feel too badly, as the old saying goes, "nothing ventured, nothing gained".
The reel came to me in a sack that a local repair shop said had too many problems to repair. I found that I could save all but the anti reverse bearing and one broken drag washer. To be fair, I put in a lot of time cleaning, polishing etc, that a local shop would have not time for.
Sorry, I couldn't get the pictures to appear with this text, my puzzlement over computer things continues!
josa1
Nice work josa - thanks for sharing.
Cheers, Justin
i never could get them to stay in place easily. thanks!
Great post josa. Not that I don't do this myself, but never thought about the rubber band ;D
Will make life so much less complicated :D
That's swift Josa. Thanks n
oh, yeah, um, STICKIED !!!!!!!!
Good job, well done..... Good info..
I have experienced roller bearings (anti Reverse - one way)
That all those small hair sized wire springs come/fall out with the rollers!!!!
Impossible to put back....
Inspect the bearing very, very well before you try this!!
After the above failure, I never took one apart again!!! LOL
Just clean well with TSI 301, soak and swish around, then lube.....
If they are loose at all or corroded the only option I recommend is replacement!!!
I Always replace the Sleeve at same time for best results...
.
good stuff nessie ;)
I just tore down and cleaned a reel last night for the very first time.
I always set brought them somewhere to be serviced, but decided it was something i wanted to learn.
I cleaned my ArB similarly. I used paint thinner as a degreaser tho. It did the job, but is there something better?
I didnt have the oils/greases you guys use here readily available, so i picked up a tube of Quantum Hot Sauce Reel Grease, and the Hot Sauce Reel Oil.
I noticed the bearing was packed with grease, but you lubed it with ReelX. If i recall thats more of an oil than a grease.
Is it better to use an oil on the ArB? I lubed mine with the Hot Sauce Grease.
No grease on an ARB, oil only. Bob
Odd, mine definitely had grease in it. And looking at his pics, his did too.
Do u use oil on all bearings?
I should add, this was in my spinning reel.
I only use oil on the ArB. The grease on the bearing in the post infiltrated into the bearing, I did not put it there. If you'll note, the bearing is in the vicinity of a lot of greased parts. Just guessing that's how it got there. Glad you were able to use the post to help with your reel work. josa1
Whether I use oil or grease on a bearing depends on the type of bearing and how the reel will be used. Using grease in ARB's can cause them to slip. I only use oil in any ARB. Most grease found in ARB's is from migration from greased parts. Bob
In looking at the schematic for my reel, what im talking about it my clutch assembly. Altho it looks just like the ArB in this post.
As ths was my first time rebuilding my reel, are these the saem thing?
I was also wondering when i reassembled it if I could put it in backwards an the reel would still work?
When i got my reel together it worked, so im guessing i did something right?
Here is my schematic. The part im talking about is 98C.
http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/content/purefishing/407-SG3000 (http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/content/purefishing/407-SG3000)
Hi MAReelMan, I like success a lot, if you put it back together and it works properly I'd say you did a lot of things right ;D . The part mentioned in the schematic looks like the same kind of ArB bearing but it's difficult to tell if it's actually the same. Good question about the bearing reassembly, I think if you put the bearing cage in the bearing housing improperly (if it's even possible to do that!) , i.e. backwards, that it would not work. For instance, I think it would rotate backwards and not the direction it should. I'm going to try it the next time I service one of the reels that have this bearing, at least then I'll know. josa1
Im slightly concerned about having greased this bearing instead of oiling it.
I did use the Quantum Hot Sauce grease. Which from what i have heard is on the same level as Cals, just more expensive.
Quote from: MAReelMan on June 30, 2013, 12:00:23 PM
Im slightly concerned about having greased this bearing instead of oiling it.
I did use the Quantum Hot Sauce grease. Which from what i have heard is on the same level as Cals, just more expensive.
The rollers move and wedge against the shaft to stop it = one way..
Open up the other direction & allow the shaft to turn..
Grease is thick and can stop the roller bearings from moving freely...
oil is always recommended on them NOT Grease....
.
So in my case, since its a spinning reel, this could cause my reel to actually spin backwards and forwards. Correct?
Edit:
Altho i was having no problems with e ArB having used grease. The perfectionist in me wouldn't allow it to be done incorrectly.
Pulled it apart again, degreased, and re lubed using Hot Sauce Oil.
Information on this is available from INA and NTN, who manufacture and supply millions of ARBs for thousands of applications:
"Lubrication:
For general applications (mixed operation involving locking and overrunning), the Schaeffler initial greasing has proved effective.
In order to ensure optimum function, it may be necessary to use different lubricants. The suitability of the lubricant must be verified by means of tests.
For applications in which one operating condition (overrunning or locking) is heavily predominant, a special greasing should be used. In this case, please consult Schaeffler Application Engineering.
It is not possible to calculate the grease operating life or lubrication interval for drawn cup roller clutches.
If relubrication is carried out, oil should used for lubrication or a changeover to oil lubrication should generally be made.
At temperatures ＜ –10 °C and speeds ＞ 0,7 nG, recommendations on lubrication should be requested.
For temperatures above +70 °C, oil lubrication should be used. The oil level should be such that, when the drawn cup roller clutch is stationary and the axis is horizontal, it is immersed approx. 1/3 in the oil bath.
Suitable oils are CL and CLP to DIN 51517 or HL and HLP to DIN 51524.
Viscosity classes: see table.
Viscosity classes:
Operating temperature
Viscosity class
+15 °C to +30 °C
ISO VG 10
+15 °C to +90 °C
ISO VG 32
+60 °C to +120 °C
ISO VG 100"
------------------
"Lubrication:
Oil lubrication is optimum for these one-way clutches,
but generally grease lubrication is mostly applied to this
type of one-way clutch.
NTN one-way clutches are filled
up with a suitable grease. These clutches need no further
grease replenishment, but subject to general applications.
In replenishing, good care must be exercised of too
much grease filling. Too much filling could cause
interference with smooth clutching.
For selection of an appropriate lubricant, contact NTN Engineering for technical assistance.
Allowable operating temperature For Type HF and HFL
...
Oil lubrication : -10 to 120 ̊C
Grease lubrication : -10 to 70 ̊C
When intending to use the oneway clutch at the upper or lower limit for its allowable operating temperature range, contact NTN Engineering for technical assistance. "
I guess that clears that up! :o josa1
QuoteOil lubrication is optimum for these one-way clutches,
but generally grease lubrication is mostly applied to this
type of one-way clutch.
Yup, sounds like either or will work just fine lol.
Great tutorial!
Thanks for this fine post with great photos :)
I would add a little bit about ARBs and Roller Clutches and their lubrication that has trickled down to me from the pros. The type of "Barrel" clutch that you see here with a nylon cage and springs is not very finicky when it comes to grease or oil...*IF* the grease is kept fresh. Down the road Grease turns to bubble gum and Oils to varnish if left uncleaned for long. Your own familiarity with your choice of lube should be your guide. I think most here are more comfortable with oil in a Barrel Clutch having seen so much "gum" residue from old grease inside of fishing reels but I have seen more than a few from the factory with grease in them.
Time will tell and reels with dog back ups to an ARB are preferred by reel techs who see a lot of conventionals once the reels start producing 10+ lbs of drag, I'd say. This is because the ARB is placed on the handle and it suffers from the mechanical advantage of the gear ratio. If you are using 10lbs of effective drag at the spool your ARB is experiencing 4-5-6x that amount as the force is multiplied by whatever your reel's gear ratio....These small clutches are really asked to perform at their very limit.
Roller Clutches (seen in Shimano spinning reels) are far more persnickety when it comes to lube. This is due to the greater travel their rollers experience and the light wire springs that are used to maintain the action/tension. Here, the choice is perfectly clean and "dry" as the rollers have a nylon "table" that their wide bases must move freely over. The nylon has a low enough friction coefficient that no additional lube is required.
July 2014 Update.....I am in the process of servicing three Shimano Trinidad reels and found that I could adequately service these bearings by just removing the cage from the bearing housing while leaving the housing in the reel sideplate. This saves a lot of time, and as mentioned above it is sometimes difficult to remove the bearing housing from the sideplate.
The process was the same, just pushed the bearing cage out of the housing by reaching thru the drive shaft hole in the right side plate with my removal tool. The cages came out easily :D :D.
I suppose the only time you'd have to remove the housing if you are concerned about rust or corrosion on the outside.
josa1
Outstanding job!
I have a ARB on a spinner that is making lot of noise. Would this procedure work for cleaning it up and fixing the squeek?
Also, would Tetra reel lube (oil) be the correct lube?
Thanks,
Tristan
Hi Tristan,
I'm sure it would work if it's the same type of bearing.
I believe it might work even if it wasn't the same type of bearing, so long as you use somewhat the same procedure. I've fixed a few of these and never had to scrap one. While on a fishing trip off of Baja, I fixed one for a friend that had a lot of corrosion and rust inside the bearing on the bearing housing. I was able to repair that one by just patiently scrapping/sanding the corrosion until the bearing housing was clean. I did tell the owner of this reel that he should have it replaced as soon as he got near a repair shop on shore!
Good luck!, and would be interested to hear how you make out.
Note that one of the respondents above fixed a similar bearing that was on a spinner.
josa1
Quote from: tristan on January 27, 2015, 11:52:06 PM
Outstanding job!
I have a ARB on a spinner that is making lot of noise. Would this procedure work for cleaning it up and fixing the squeek?
Also, would Tetra reel lube (oil) be the correct lube?
Thanks,
Tristan
Before you get too crazy taking it apart you can try flooding it with corrosion-x. I have seen amazing amounts of rust flush out after soaking and cranking a bit, soaking and cranking.
This is always a temporary measure though, you are gonna need to replace it before you really trust it ever again.
Hi John,
Definitely agree, if you attempt to flush the bearing and don't take it apart, clean it thoroughly, and visually see that it's in top condition, it should be replaced.
But, if you do it the way the post shows, I believe you can have all the confidence necessary that the bearing will function correctly.
Plus, it's FUN to do! You can always replace it if you discover something that can't be refurbished to your satisfaction.
josa1
Thought I would look up the cost of the Shimano Anti Reverse Bearing...couldn't find much on pricing on the net, but did find one.
Don't know how representative this is, but on Mike's web site in FL, they want $17.19 for the bearing for a Trinidad 40. I know that's not the end of the world, but it's not insignificant either. Naturally, there would also be a few extra $ for shipping and handling.
I think that most of us will spend what is required to maintain the reels we use in top condition. I'd hate to think of losing a nice Wahoo on a mal functioning anti reverse bearing. Definitely not worth that.
That's why I make servicing this bearing on my 3 Trinidads a part of my normal maintenance procedure, and service each of them after every trip using the exact procedure posted. My biggest problem is, there's never enough trips!
josa1
Quote from: josa1 on July 24, 2014, 06:39:52 PM
July 2014 Update.....I am in the process of servicing three Shimano Trinidad reels and found that I could adequately service these bearings by just removing the cage from the bearing housing while leaving the housing in the reel sideplate. This saves a lot of time, and as mentioned above it is sometimes difficult to remove the bearing housing from the sideplate.
The process was the same, just pushed the bearing cage out of the housing by reaching thru the drive shaft hole in the right side plate with my removal tool. The cages came out easily :D :D.
I suppose the only time you'd have to remove the housing if you are concerned about rust or corrosion on the outside.
josa1
I just noticed on my trini16 that the handle moves a bit back when few weeks ago the AR bearing was kicking as soon as you move the handle backwards, now it has some play when you move the handle back.
I was thinking to go for a new AR bearing but I will try to see if this method works.
one question, how do you manages to take just the bearing cage and left the housing on the handle plate?
what tool did you used?
thanks, great post by the way.
Hi Steelfish,
I just use a small pointed awl to reach through the drive shaft hole and push the bearing cage out while leaving the outer cage in place. That may work for you, if not, try using small wooden dowel with a flat edge to just get contact with the inner bearing race.
It pushes out easily so don't really think you'll have a problem.
Why don't you post your efforts and the final result on Alan's great site? Would really be interesting to see your efforts, problems and the end result.
josa1
thanks Josa I will try to check mine and let you guys now how easy or hard it was to take the cage out.
Hi steelfish,
Was wondering how you made out cleaning the anti reverse bearing, and the technique that you used to take the bearing apart.
josa1
Quote from: steelfish on August 19, 2015, 02:22:28 AM
I just noticed on my trini16 that the handle moves a bit back when few weeks ago the AR bearing was kicking as soon as you move the handle backwards, now it has some play when you move the handle back
Well I never did it.
It resulted That the problem wasnt the ARB BIT it esa the handle itself, it has a lot of play in one on the holes for the sleeve shaft, it esa badly corroded, I justo changed to another hole and the back play went away
O.K. thanks. It's always better not to fix a problem that didn't exist in the first place.
Tight lines....
josa1
Quote from: josa1 on September 02, 2015, 04:35:46 AM
O.K. thanks. It's always better not to fix a problem that didn't exist in the first place.
Tight lines....
josa1
;D ;D
In many Penn spinning reels Penn grease is the answer for a noisy ARB. Grease doesn't hurt them at all. The ones used in the Shimano conventional reels don't hold much drag at all as we all know so we try to keep them as clean as possible. If the roller clutch in these reels had more, thinner, taller, roller bearings it would take a lot more pressure to make them go backwards.
Have to disagree. Shimano reels with anti reverse bearings work perfectly.
I thought that these bearings were being given the short shift and that led me to post this tutorial. All bearings that I have looked at that were "failed" were actually poorly serviced.
In fact, I've never had an anti reverse bearing in good serviced condition fail under the heaviest of loads. That's one reason why I haven't gone to the "clicking" anti reverse system on my gold Trinidads.
My best catch of about (not actually weighed) a 140 pound YFT on a TN40, on 60 pound line, not an issue. After an hour fight it was still functioning perfectly with the greased carbon fiber drag screwed down as tight as I could get it. Really, I was ready to land or lose that fish as quickly as possible, happily I landed it.
josa1
Quote from: josa1 on February 18, 2016, 04:02:51 AM
Have to disagree. Shimano reels with anti reverse bearings work perfectly.
I thought that these bearings were being given the short shift and that led me to post this tutorial. All bearings that I have looked at that were "failed" were actually poorly serviced.
In fact, I've never had an anti reverse bearing in good serviced condition fail under the heaviest of loads. That's one reason why I haven't gone to the "clicking" anti reverse system on my gold Trinidads.
My best catch of about (not actually weighed) a 140 pound YFT on a TN40, on 60 pound line, not an issue. After an hour fight it was still functioning perfectly with the greased carbon fiber drag screwed down as tight as I could get it. Really, I was ready to land or lose that fish as quickly as possible, happily I landed it.
josa1
Handi2 is a pro reel servicer who has seen more Shimano ARB in conventional reels than pretty much anyone here other than Alan or Bryan maybe.
His point is absolutely right on, as is yours :). A properly serviced and maintained Shimano ARB is trouble free (easy for the solo enthusiast to do) but Handi2 sees countless ones that are never maintained. He is absolutely right to say the margin of error is small with them due their small size and design as they do not tolerate a little neglect at all. An ARB with taller rollers has more margin for lack of service and is more reliable.
Note, Shimano did not start double back up dogging their reels for no reason.
This post is inspiring. I throw away a lot of clutches due to gunk and junk. I think I need to reinvest more time into trying to clean them up and reuse them. Thanks for this.
Yes, it's too bad that most people don't have the time to learn to properly service their fishing equipment as noted by johntuttle and fattuna. Don't you think most of these bearings get replaced with no service attempt what-so-ever?
I see the same condition in the few reels I service for friends, buy on Ebay or at swap meets, or for acquaintances while on fishing trips. Some even think they have serviced their reels but have not paid attention to all its components.
The two things that most come to mind are the anti reverse bearings and then the other roller bearings. Being a member of the Alan Tani brigade I have paid very close attention to Alan's very astute bearing service post, I never consider a reel serviced until these components are properly cared for.
I agree that I do not service many reels. Anyone that does it as an occupation has my highest respect. They are under time restraints that I do not have. If I want to spend 5 hours turning a piece of junk into a smoothly functioning reel, I can do it.
But I will ask this question....Do you think that all reel servicers provide complete bearing service in the prices they quote in their reel service prices? I have my doubts. Far easier and more lucrative to just replace the bearings at extra cost and discard the old ones. I think this is o.k. for the professional to do, because it addresses the issue and the reel gets to the totally serviced condition that I think it should be in. It's better to do this than ignore the bearings totally. However, I wouldn't say that most of these disgarded bearings are defective, just unserviced.
Last question....How many NEW reels has Alan opened up and found the bearings to improperly lubricated? My answer would be, lots of them.
josa1
All you have to do is look closely at the dogs in the Trinidad and Torium reels. The dogs are being used in every case. Even when brand new. Trinidad's are my favorite reels and I fish them when the strongest reel is needed. The clutch does slip but you can't feel it when your fishing hard.
Just look at the tips of the dog or dogs after a season of fishing.
Quote from: josa1 on February 18, 2016, 10:07:44 AM
Last question....How many NEW reels has Alan opened up and found the bearings to improperly lubricated? My answer would be, lots of them.
josa1
There is no such thing as a properly lubed bearing from the Factory...with the possible exception of the Okuma Makaira SEA reels that I believe are gone over by a real human tech prior to shipment.
Bearings otherwise are automatically lubed during manufacturing by a machine that squirts some grease in them as they are fed in an automated assembly line...typically on one side only and not remotely properly "packed" with grease as shown in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONz6S48QgEk
It simply is too expensive and would be mind-destroyingly boring for a human being to properly lube bearings all day.
Yes, I agree,,,bearings in new reels need to be checked before placing them in service. As you note, they are unlikely to be lubed properly. Nice video!
I am unsure how often thereafter that they should be cleaned and relubed. So, I do it every time I service the reel. Probably overkill, but, for some reason, I LIKE to work on fishing reels!
josa1
Nice trick with the rubber band, I am learning all kinds of handy tricks here...
Brent
June 27, 2016
This morning I did a little testing on the anti reverse bearing which is in my Shimano Trinidad TN40. I used this reel on a recent trip to catch 3 wahoo and it functioned perfectly.
The purpose of the test was to find out exactly where the anti reverse bearing stopped functioning. There was some speculation that the manual dogs actually do all the anti reverse duty and I just wanted to find out if that was true. Bear in mind these are not scientific data, just my personal findings about my 14 year old reel.
The pictures below show this reel, Manufacturing Date AD, i.e. April 2002 I believe. Line was removed from the reel and the spectra was cleaned. The reel was then completely dismantled, cleaned and reassembled. During the reassembly both of the anti reverse dogs were left out. The servicing included the anti reverse bearing, but it was very clean and didn't actually require service.
I then reinstalled the line and tied a loop in the end and connected it to my scale. This is what I found.
1) Initial drag set at 7.5 pounds, cycled the pressure on the bearing 15 times from 0 to 7.5 pounds. The anti reverse bearing held firm with no backwards turning of the star which would indicate that the tube inside the anti reverse bearing was turning.
2) Performed the same test as above at 10, 12.5, 15, 17.5, 20, 22.5, 25 pound drag settings with absolutely no backwards movement of the mechanical apparatus controlled by the anti reverse bearing.
3) When I attempted to set 27.5 pounds setting of drag pressure on the anti reverse bearing, I noticed that just as I was reaching 27 pounds on the scale the star started to slowly rotate backwards. It wasn't a dramatic move, it made no noise, it didn't "jump" when it reached it's maximum pressure, it just started to slowly attempt to release that pressure. I think the movement was the tube that is inside the bearing was rotating. My belief is that the rollers weren't turning backwards but I don't know how to test this so I'm absolutely not sure this is true.
I note that this 27 pounds is approximately 10-12 pounds more pressure than I would fish the reel for wahoo with 50 pound test line. I would probably set my drag at a maximum of 18-20 pounds.
Here are some pictures...You can click on the image for slightly larger view.
Picture 1: Reel dismantled and all parts cleaned. Note no line on spool, and greased carbon fiber drag washers.
Picture 2: Reel partially reassembled, no mechanical dogs on the dog posts.
Picture 3: Reel connected to the scale for the test described above.
Wow, that's more than what I would have expected from that anti-reverse roller bearing. Good to know.
Very interesting thread here...nice to see that ARB get a little respect for once. 8)
dang, nice test buddy.
time to clean my IAR bearing on my tn16
Interesting test Josa 1. That reel is actually 3 years younger than you thought ! Not that it makes any difference.
The information below was from Bantam1 of Shimano.
Just interesting to know.
Cheers,
Terry.
First letter is the year, second letter is the month, and third letter is the country of manufacture. The list is long so I am not going to type it all since it covers 1976-2015. I will post a couple and you can figure out the rest. We use A-Z for the years, so they reset every 25 years.
Years:
2002- A
2015- N
1990- O
2001- Z
Months are A-L:
Jan- A
Feb- B
Mar- C
Dec- L
Country of origin:
S- SIC (Japan)
P- SCM (Malaysia)
Thanks Terry,
The letters on my reel are AD. So wouldn't that be 2002/April? This would make the reel 14 years old.
josa1
Sorry Josa 1. Of course it's 2002, April. Was put off by you putting April, 2002, and the numbers did not add up !! More attention to detail needed by me.
Cheers,
Terry.
Thanks for going to the trouble of investigating this. Your tests were most informative.
This is the same bearing used in larger Tekotas and some Toriums.
~
I like the rubber band trick a lot. I service all of my antireverse bearings frequently, spinners included. Sometimes the bearings are tiny and never want to stay in place. I use a cheap grease like the Berkley they sell about everywhere to pack around them and they don't move around when reassembling. The cheap grease cleans out easily after reassembly. Then lube as a unit with lube of your choice.
Hi Indyfisher,
The rubber band works well, thank you. One of the small, thin rubber bands works better than a heavier duty rubber band.
I've also recently found that there's enough play in the bearing assembly to lay the bearing on its side, then "tilt" the bearing cage farther in at the bottom of outer race, but leave enough space to insert the small rollers at the top of the cage. You can then rotate the inner race to get all of the rollers in place.
This new method takes a little getting used to but it works well too.
josa1
The Paint Clean-Up is no longer available. Any recommendations.......?
Hi reddrum,
Seems it's getting harder and harder to find solutions to clean grease, grime from fishing reel parts.
After Home Depot stopped carrying the paint clean up solution I switched to a solution also made by Klean Strip, an odorless kerosene substitute called Klean Heat. This product worked just as well, was easy to handle and smell, and came in gallon containers for about $11.00 as I recall. Now, neither Home Depot or Lowes no longer carry this product either.
A while back I had an inkling that Home Depot was not going to carry the kerosene substitute much longer, so I bought 2 one gallon cans that will last me a long time, so for right now, I'm good to go.
If you can find any of the Klean Heat Odorless Fuel I think you'd be happy with that. Aside from this product I have no recommendation so sorry about that.
Also, you can clean parts with WD 40 and follow up with a strong wash of water/Dawn dish soap, maybe twice what you would use for dishes, and that works pretty well. I don't like to use just the WD 40 because it leaves a residue I do not like. After cleaning with the dish soap I rinse with clean water and blow off with compressed air. Parts cleaned like this are usually spotless. I tried cleaning with just the dish soap and/or Simple Green but that's just not strong enough for me.
As an aside, It seems there should be a lot of products that would work but this turns out not to be the case. I particularly do not like products like break cleaner as they are just too strong for me. It seems to me that most cleaning solvents do not mix well with the synthetic greases used in fishing reel maintenance. If you find something that works well I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know what it is.
josa1
Thanks for the reply. My concern is plastic safe, then, quick and easy, so, for now, I'll go with the WD40 and DAWN.
Thanks, again.
Have you guys tried Shellite aka naptha? etc.
I have a pretty keen sniffer and this stuff does not bother me at all.
I buy it in 20 litre drums but it is available in smaller quantities in most hardware stores.
~
Quote from: reddrum55 on January 15, 2017, 03:37:11 PM
Thanks for the reply. My concern is plastic safe, then, quick and easy, so, for now, I'll go with the WD40 and DAWN.
Thanks, again.
You could also give this ashot:
https://www.amazon.com/PASLODE-219384-12OZ-CRDLS-Cleaner/dp/B004BGBB5W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484495064&sr=8-1&keywords=paslode+tool+cleaner
Once you try it, you'll never go back.
I don't have anything to to with the company, I just like their product.
Sal
Thanks Sal, I'll give that a go and see how I like it.
josa1
Local Home Depot shows stock on hand. On the way out the door.
Thanks Sal
Happy New Year, Ohana !
I made up a PDF version of this excellent tutorial for easy download and archiving . . . ( ATTACHED )
Tight Lines !
Hi Joe, first time I have read this post, great job, easy to understand, thanks cheers Don.
Hi Don,
Thanks! This is one I had fun with.
joe