:) I have been reading a few posts about braid or line slipping on the spool arbors . There is talk about wrapping tape to prevent this and tying to the pin or using the hole in the arbor to tie into .
So I needed to try a test of my own . I sprayed the arbor with penetrating oil and made 2 wraps on the arbor and did a pull test . I could not get the braid to slip . all that happen is the line snapped around 28- 30 pounds pull. What did I do wrong ?
I tried to slip the line on my 440 dam spool and it would not slip . I did find the fuse in the reel at 25ish pounds . It`s the cast piece at the bottom of the link bar
That's an expensive test. Not sure what it takes to make it slip, however the common denominator is loss of drag at about 10lbs on a conventional reel. Bill
:) How can I loose drag , if I can get the line to slip on the arbor ?
Yay! Real tests!
Quote from: Bill B on April 27, 2024, 01:41:09 AMThat's an expensive test. Not sure what it takes to make it slip, however the common denominator is loss of drag at about 10lbs on a conventional reel. Bill
I think that you also need a more full spool with lots of winding load, at least toward the top. Layer after layer, wraps digging in and binding to each other. If the very first wraps are not under tension (they might relax a bit as additional layers are added, or maybe creep over time can relieve some tesion), the new load won't reach them, and now it occasionally takes less tension to spin this "puck" of spectra than to unwind the line.
Enough folk have had this happen at higher drag settings that the SoCal saltwater shops started taping and then flex wrapping arbors, and didn't have problems after that. I went to a well respected SoCal shop , and they 100% flat out refused to do a spool fill for me unless they taped the arbor. Zero interest in how "some customer" might prefer to do it. They also kindly and patiently explained to me some (wrong) stuff about how reels work. ::)
Flex wrapping the arbor isn't necessarily the only method that works, it is just the one that has been most widely adopted, at least out here on the West Coast.
-J
Let me try again , with a simple test. Tie YOUR arbor knot on a bolt , make two additional wraps and see if you can pull the line around the arbor "slip "
Like this . I can not get it to slip.
the braid is usually loose, also.
:) Why is the braid loose ? Again can you pull the two wrap off the bolt "Slip "
:) There is a method to my madness , I want you to try to duplicate my little test ,pull two wraps off the bolt .
Right now, you are just to the point of proving that thin braid does not have to slip once you are at exactly two wraps on the spool. I do this test (not to the point of breakage) on every spool fill.
I think what is happening in your test is that the tighter you pull the line, the tighter the arbor knot cinches down. BUT... things are going to change as you put more line on the spool. Eventually, the tension from pulling on the line does not make it all the way to the arbor knot. Plus compression from above is going to flatten out the braid on the bottom, making it more like a bushing of low friction plastic. Probably plus some other stuff that I haven't even thought of.
I am confused a bit. Are you asserting that line slippage doesn't happen or are you trying to ferret out when and why it happens? Or something else?
-J
A clove hitch with four wraps will not slip if the wraps are going in the correct direction. The more you pull the tighter it gets.
what i meant was that the ones that actually do slip are usually pretty loose.
Jurelometer touched on it; keep in mind also what I will for want of a better description call the "lever". Attempts to get the braid to slip with wraps directly on the spool would be akin to attempting to loosen a bolt using just your fingers. But when you then use a wrench on the bolt, you now have introduced a lever the length of the wrench, and in the case of a spool, that lever is more a less the Radius of the line piled on the spool (for arguments sake say 2"?). So if you pull on the line now, using the same amount of pulling force that you are applying with the "2 wrap test", you are actually multiplying the level of torque that is being seen. Probably some pretty basic calculations; but I cut class that day to go fishing.....- john
So, when the line slips on the the spool, it's a matter of the knot loosening up over time?
I have seen it happen more than a few times.
My attachment method is a bit time consuming but they never slip. I put 20' or so of Daceon on the spool, with a double clove hitch locked with a half hitch, then I tie or splice in my Spectra.
It's not mostly a lever thing.
The arbor knot works by getting tighter as you pull on it. Once you have enough line on the spool, any pulling that you are doing is not going to change the tension on the arbor knot.
Quote from: Gfish on April 27, 2024, 04:46:56 PMSo, when the line slips on the the spool, it's a matter of the knot loosening up over time?
Ooh, somebody read the post before replying. Bonus points!
Yes, that is half of the problem.
Alan keeps pointing out a loose pack on the spool for a reason.
If you pack the line loosely:
1. The loose wraps from loading under light tension is going to allow the arbor knot to release a little. Or maybe the plastic under tension creeps (elongates via deformation over time),or a bit of both.
2. With loose wraps, the coils are going to dig in and jam up when you start pulling hard now you have more of a plastic puck that wants spin than a spool of line that wants to unwind. The arbor knot betterbeb tight enough to hold on its current tension. It is not going to get any tighter...
It is useful to check if your arbor knot is holding, but if you want to see if you have avoided the line slipping on the spool problem, you need to fill the spool.
I could get into the coefficient of friction for UHMWPE on polished anodized aluminum multiplied by the clamping load from the arbor knot and so on and so forth, but nobody will be reading this deep into a post anyway... :)
-J
May be Joe have a better way to tight line to spool or may be the braid we use today is less slip than the original Spider wire . Just look at the Spider wire,it's really slippery
OK another test using 90 pound hercules braid . Loose knot to start , sprayed more Penetrate oil to make the arbor slick and the line . Cranked it to 50 pounds and no slip. A little hard to hold camera and crank at the same time ...
I tie mine the same way KETA explained, never had it slip yet, mind you I only ever catch mino`s, cheers Don.
Quote from: jurelometer on April 27, 2024, 05:32:07 AMRight now, you are just to the point of proving that thin braid does not have to slip once you are at exactly two wraps on the spool. I do this test (not to the point of breakage) on every spool fill.
I think what is happening in your test is that the tighter you pull the line, the tighter the arbor knot cinches down. BUT... things are going to change as you put more line on the spool. Eventually, the tension from pulling on the line does not make it all the way to the arbor knot. Plus compression from above is going to flatten out the braid on the bottom, making it more like a bushing of low friction plastic. Probably plus some other stuff that I haven't even thought of.
I am confused a bit. Are you asserting that line slippage doesn't happen or are you trying to ferret out when and why it happens? Or something else?
-J Enough folk have had this happen at higher drag settings that the SoCal saltwater shops started taping and then flex wrapping arbors, and didn't have problems after that. I went to a well respected SoCal shop , and they 100% flat out refused to do a spool fill for me unless they taped the arbor. Zero interest in how "some customer" might prefer to do it. They also kindly and patiently explained to me some (wrong) stuff about how reels work. ::)
Yes I am trying to ferret out why and when it happens . More so because main stream spooling usual dead ends the line to the arbor pin or to the hole in the arbor shaft .
So how does the line slip on the spool? I do understand that starting spooling without enough tension will result in dig ins and line waffling . My next question is when the first layer goes down on the arbor ,are the wraps close together all the way across the spool or they corkscrewed with the second layer crisscrossed filling in the first layer , like a level wind will do .
Quote from: oc1 on April 27, 2024, 06:47:29 AMA clove hitch with four wraps will not slip if the wraps are going in the correct direction. The more you pull the tighter it gets.
I agree with you ,not sure about clove hitch knot .
Quote from: Brewcrafter on April 27, 2024, 04:42:46 PMJurelometer touched on it; keep in mind also what I will for want of a better description call the "lever". Attempts to get the braid to slip with wraps directly on the spool would be akin to attempting to loosen a bolt using just your fingers. But when you then use a wrench on the bolt, you now have introduced a lever the length of the wrench, and in the case of a spool, that lever is more a less the Radius of the line piled on the spool (for arguments sake say 2"?). So if you pull on the line now, using the same amount of pulling force that you are applying with the "2 wrap test", you are actually multiplying the level of torque that is being seen. Probably some pretty basic calculations; but I cut class that day to go fishing.....- john
:) I`m with ya , I cut a lot of classes also . I started my test with just starting the bolt , I did not finger tighten . Not sure I am following you on the "2 wrap test", but torque and drag efficiency decrease as more layers go on the spool.
This is how I tie the arbor knot for bait casters. Put the reel in free spool.
I tape the line to the side of the spool. Pay out 4 turns , yes the line goes on backwards for 4 turns . Remove tape end and pull it out so you can tie a Rapala knot around the main line . Test it and see if it works for you.
For tying spinner spool. Just a loop knot ,than fold it to make a bigger loop.
Keep the tag / "tail" as the trailer . 2 wraps will work.
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 28, 2024, 04:33:30 AMYes I am trying to ferret out why and when it happens . More so because main stream spooling usual dead ends the line to the arbor pin or to the hole in the arbor shaft .
So how does the line slip on the spool? I do understand that starting spooling without enough tension will result in dig ins and line waffling . My next question is when the first layer goes down on the arbor ,are the wraps close together all the way across the spool or they corkscrewed with the second layer crisscrossed filling in the first layer , like a level wind will do .
This happens on non levelwind reels, so it is packed however you want. Most folk pack the first layers with wraps close together, but not very carefully.
I would suggest to start with what we know:
1. It is not too difficult to make an arbor knot that holds very tight (your tests). But the arbor knot only holds when the standing end is under tension. Ergo, if the arbor knot is slipping, it must no longer be under tension.
2. This problem does not occur with nylon, so what is different about nylon? First off, nylon stretches much more than braid. That extra stretch m might be providing a reservoir of tension. Also nylon has a match higher coefficient of friction, so it will stick to spool better. Nylon also tends to dig in less than braid. But there are other differences as well.
3. The slipping problem tends to happen more frequently when the spool is not packed tightly. Loose pack means less elastic tension, and more braid digging in.
———-
Unfortunately, this problem is happening deep in the spool, so while it is easy to observe that it is happening, it is hard to observe how it is happening.
For example, here is a non-obvious hypothesis: When a solid piece of plastic with a hole in the center expands when heated, the diameter of the hole also expands proportionally. If the line loaded on the spool behaves like it solid piece of plastic, then the line filled indoors and then taken outdoors may no longer be tight to the arbor. BTW, the coefficient of thermal expansion for the plastic used to make braid is about twice that of the plastic used to make nylon fishing line.
But this is just one of many hypotheses. It could be something more obvious, like not getting the bottom layers tight. Or there could be multiple ways to cause it. Who knows?
Not sure how to get to the bottom of this without doing a lot of spool fills.
-J
I use braid on size 10, 20, 25 spinning reels and have landed many 12 to 30 lb chinook in streams running 3 to 5 knots.
I watched a few videos which suggested the following:
tie knot and leave a tag on the arbor > wind the first many wrap REAL TIGHT over said tag > till said tag is covered, keep winding braid at reasonable tension
I use a bees kneez spool holder screwed to a plank of wood with a 10lb barbell weight I bought back when I was in college in Lincoln, NE (some how I till have it).
I am pretty sure I am up in the mind numbing 6 lbs of drag 8)
Man, you guys are diggin' deep into this subject. 😱
My solution is to fish only open face spinners, not use braid and not go after fish so big that they could spin the line at the bottom of a fully filled spool. 😉 😂
Size does not matter ;) .
(https://alantani.com/gallery/37/1583-110523152853.jpeg)
My daughter shamed her lackadaisical fisherman husband (he is a avid hunter) into buying a real fishing reel.... ;D and the shop he got it at spooled the ABU5601 poorly. I was visiting and I took the never used reel apart and found nothing that would keep the drag from working. I did not have access to a line winder so I went up to their airstrip (bush planes) walked the line off, respooled it TIGHT and problem solved.
I am more concerned about preventing line from spinning on the spool and we have several methods that work but I find it interesting seeing some here trying to figure out what is causing it. 10 years ago Jerry Brown told me that I should spool at 10#, Alan's method based on the reels drag can be much higher. I occasionally strip my reels and repack the line and have seen wavy line on the spool about 1/2 way down and assume it is caused by loose spooling. Alan can get 2x the drag with his winder but once I started spooling tight with a winder I have not noticed it. I have a 3 day on the Intrepid in mid May and have to put paying repair aside and get my reels serviced and repacked this week.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on April 28, 2024, 04:11:03 PMMan, you guys are diggin' deep into this subject. 😱
My solution is to fish only open face spinners, not use braid and not go after fish so big that they could spin the line at the bottom of a fully filled spool. 😉 😂
:) :) I am with you on that . If I tie a main stream arbor knot on a smooth spool, it`s like a old lady walking on a icy sidewalk . >:D >:D Yer I can`t get these guys to spin the line at the bottom of a fully filled spool ether . :D :D " Playful banter"
Quote from: jurelometer on April 28, 2024, 07:51:24 AMI would suggest to start with what we know:
1. It is not too difficult to make an arbor knot that holds very tight (your tests). But the arbor knot only holds when the standing end is under tension. Ergo, if the arbor knot is slipping, it must no longer be under tension.
2. This problem does not occur with nylon, so what is different about nylon? First off, nylon stretches much more than braid. That extra stretch m might be providing a reservoir of tension. Also nylon has a match higher coefficient of friction, so it will stick to spool better. Nylon also tends to dig in less than braid. But there are other differences as well.
3. The slipping problem tends to happen more frequently when the spool is not packed tightly. Loose pack means less elastic tension, and more braid digging in.
———-
Unfortunately, this problem is happening deep in the spool, so while it is easy to observe that it is happening, it is hard to observe how it is happening.
For example, here is a non-obvious hypothesis: When a solid piece of plastic with a hole in the center expands when heated, the diameter of the hole also expands proportionally. If the line loaded on the spool behaves like it solid piece of plastic, then the line filled indoors and then taken outdoors may no longer be tight to the arbor. BTW, the coefficient of thermal expansion for the plastic used to make braid is about twice that of the plastic used to make nylon fishing line.
But this is just one of many hypotheses. It could be something more obvious, like not getting the bottom layers tight. Or there could be multiple ways to cause it. Who knows?
Not sure how to get to the bottom of this without doing a lot of spool fills.
-J
The way I read this is, Arbor knot with no mention of dead ending the standing end .
3. The slipping problem tends to happen more frequently when the spool is not packed tightly. Loose pack means less elastic tension, and more braid digging in.
If the standing end is dead headed , and loose wrap spool slips sooner or later it should stop when it catches up with the dead head .
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 28, 2024, 06:17:02 PMThe way I read this is, Arbor knot with no mention of dead ending the standing end .
3. The slipping problem tends to happen more frequently when the spool is not packed tightly. Loose pack means less elastic tension, and more braid digging in.
If the standing end is dead headed , and loose wrap spool slips sooner or later it should stop when it catches up with the dead head .
True if you have two turns of line on the spool. As you add more wraps, the cumulative friction between the wraps eventually will be greater than the pulling load, so the load does not travel any farther down the line toward the arbor. At this point, either the arbor knot holds with whatever tension it is currently under, or the whole mess starts rotating, and you lose some of your drag capacity.
I think that you are also onto two important points:
1. Get the most grip that you can out of your arbor tie off.
2. Pay close attention to packing the lower lavers of the fill extra tight. Tight (within reason) is useful for the whole spool fill, but the lower layers are most important to prevent slipping.
I don't think that there is such a thing as a self gripping arbor knot that holds its grip without tension, but doing things like extra wraps before tying on the knot should increase the cumulative frictional (gripping) force for the same amount of tension. Also leaving a slightly longer tag and wrapping over it immediately as Jerry Brown recommends should help lock the tension in place by taking advantage of the compressive force from the layers above.
If you think that you have come up with a knot that solves this problem by itself, the test would be to be able to repeatedly get a full spool slippage with a standard arbor knot, and none with an improved knot. All fills would have to be with the same (presumably loose) tension and pattern.
Hats off to anyone willing to do that much work. Unless you have a machine winder, you are going to end up with one Popeye arm :)
In terms of how tight is just right? There is a balance between preventing digging in and/or slippage and causing creep along the fibers and fractures across them. But that is a whole nuther can of worms, and Idon't want to get us off topic.
-J
Here is the pictures , just about 24 hours and the scale is still holding at 8 pounds . " I set it at 8 pounds , it was the second dog click ."
What test can I try next ? Grease the arbor ,more wraps ,hold less pounds for 24 hours .
NO disrespect .....
" Dave the in house science guy " or anybody else can you dissect the last video , what I was expecting that when I started cranking ,first pound or two the line to slip , it did not . I did not sh-inch up the knot
I don't believe that the tests as you are doing them will work as I don't believe that the braid actually slips on the spool but rather slips on itself when not spooled tightly. The effect is the same. You don't have enough line on the spool.
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 28, 2024, 07:53:48 PMHere is the pictures , just about 24 hours and the scale is still holding at 8 pounds . " I set it at 8 pounds , it was the second dog click ."
What test can I try next ? Grease the arbor ,more wraps ,hold less pounds for 24 hours .
NO disrespect .....
" Dave the in house science guy " or anybody else can you dissect the last video , what I was expecting that when I started cranking ,first pound or two the line did not slip . I did not sh-inch up the knot
This video where it slips aroud the 1:50 mark?
https://alantani.com/index.php?msg=452756 (https://alantani.com/index.php?msg=452756)
Any pulling on the line should be cinching up the knot during the first several winds. The line pulling force just has to overcome the arbor gripping frictional force to cause a slip. Both are changing at the same time. I would guess that they don't increase proportionately- maybe something to do with the way the line bends around the knot or loop increasing line to line friction, making less force available to grip the spool. But my specialty is logic not physics, so take this with a grain of salt.
Not sure if that spray stuff actually decreases the COF.My take is that the better test is to go uncoated, or whatever you coat the spool with for protection. Alan uses his favorite marine grease, I use carnuba wax.
In terms of what to do next- dunno- have to start messing with some full spool fills that slip and don't slip- seems like a lot of work and whatever you come up with, we are going to nitpick at ;D .
Already some useful stuff here with the progress that you have made so far. Thanks for sharing!
Quote from: day0ne on April 28, 2024, 08:23:00 PMI don't believe that the tests as you are doing them will work as I don't believe that the braid actually slips on the spool but rather slips on itself when not spooled tightly. The effect is the same. You don't have enough line on the spool.
I was thinking about this too, but went with the theory that this is unlikely. For this to happen, the top of the spool has to be all bound up, and as you remove line, you are tightening up loose coils deeper in the spool. This part seems somewhat plausible, but the effect should be short lived. It seems unlikely that you could successfully tighten up a large amount of coils deep in the spool by pulling on the end of the line.
Easy enough to test- if the slippage continues indefinitely and somewhat evenly- then the whole fill is slipping -all the way through the arbor knot. If it slips for awhile and then completely stops slipping, your theory provides a better fit.
-J
Ok The slip at 1:50 , is me loosing the drag . You can see it in the spool side .
I though the spay was going to take the cof to zero .
I will try some different lubricants during the week .
Hard to tell what the spray is going to do cause it might interact with the coating. Tribology is too weird for me to understand. Just seems better to test it the way you are going to fish it. Hard enough already to figure out what is going on.
I am starting to wonder if slipping is simply just caused by not making sure everthing is tight until you have enough wraps to create a compressive load to hold the arbor knot in tension. No such thing as a truly locking arbor knot. If the first few layers are not tight, we are probably screwed. If we wrap a a couple turns tight, but the don't pay attention and wrap the next twenty or so loose while we are getting our fill going, then filling the rest of the spool with tight wraps may not save us. Might make things worse...
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best one. Dunno.
-J
??? This arbor knot is 100 % slip proof . You have to break something to get it to slip
Yup.
I had to satisfy my curiosity so here goes . Red grease the arbor all the way around , only half of the spool across . Loosen the knot , put a pencil to to make the loops all the same. Than move the loops over the grease arbor . Than just crank it up . About half way I had to dial in a little more drag and then continue until I maxed out the scale . I think this should have failed , what did I do wrong ?
I think "braid slipping on the spool" is a misnomer. As you have found, it's quite hard to make braid slip on the spool arbor. When it's spooled too loosely, the line is able to pull up tighter on the spool, which gives the effect of line coming off the reel without the spool turning.
I'm just not convinced that it's braid loosening on a spool. That would eventually stop. The trick if you wanna see braid slip is to tie a bad knot. I've had it happen twice when I was just spooling line on to peel it off for guide spacing testing. Tied a crap knot. Line slipped at like 2# of drag. It was a pain to reel it in.
Quote from: boon on April 29, 2024, 10:09:33 PMI think "braid slipping on the spool" is a misnomer. As you have found, it's quite hard to make braid slip on the spool arbor. When it's spooled too loosely, the line is able to pull up tighter on the spool, which gives the effect of line coming off the reel without the spool turning.
Covered earlier in the thread:
Quote from: jurelometer on April 28, 2024, 09:46:07 PMQuoteI don't believe that the tests as you are doing them will work as I don't believe that the braid actually slips on the spool but rather slips on itself when not spooled tightly. The effect is the same. You don't have enough line on the spool.
I was thinking about this too, but went with the theory that this is unlikely. For this to happen, the top of the spool has to be all bound up, and as you remove line, you are tightening up loose coils deeper in the spool. This part seems somewhat plausible, but the effect should be short lived. It seems unlikely that you could successfully tighten up a large amount of coils deep in the spool by pulling on the end of the line.
Easy enough to test- if the slippage continues indefinitely and somewhat evenly- then the whole fill is slipping -all the way through the arbor knot. If it slips for awhile and then completely stops slipping, your theory provides a better fit.
But easy enough to prove one way or the other if you run into one.
-J
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 27, 2024, 02:28:28 AMLet me try again , with a simple test. Tie YOUR arbor knot on a bolt , make two additional wraps and see if you can pull the line around the arbor "slip "
Like this . I can not get it to slip.
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 27, 2024, 04:05:56 AM:) There is a method to my madness , I want you to try to duplicate my little test ,pull two wraps off the bolt .
1-9292327464
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 28, 2024, 04:43:43 AMQuote from: oc1 on April 27, 2024, 06:47:29 AMA clove hitch with four wraps will not slip if the wraps are going in the correct direction. The more you pull the tighter it gets.
I agree with you ,not sure about clove hitch knot .
:fish :fish :fish
The people who have it slip don't try as hard as you... which is why it slips!
Quote from: MarkT on April 30, 2024, 03:35:09 AMThe people who have it slip don't try as hard as you... which is why it slips!
" Friendly banter " Like Fishermen who buy pre snelled hooks by the six pack verses the one who buy bulk hooks . Beginning to understand why slip on shoes is the new fad .
(https://alantani.com/gallery/38/17471-270923115148-38220411.jpeg)
If you're trying to fail, you're going about it the wrong way. You start with good knot cinched down tight and then tight wraps on the spool. Try tying a bad knot, not cinched down and then put the line on without much tension. Then you'll succeed, if that's what you call success!
So as fate would have it the experience of this afternoon gave me something to add to this.
I took a new reel to the shop to get spooled (metal spool baitcaster not a plastic spool spinner but nonetheless).
Dude looked at me funny when I said no I don't want mono backing but I do want tape on the spool. Then started a discussion about ways line fails on spools. It really highlighted how much misinformation is out there.
I hesitantly mentioned that if a knot is well tied, with a few arbor loops, anecdotal evidence shows the tape is unnecessary. but this spool has holes drilled so the tape helps with the sharp edges. And I'm glad I did it because even though his knot looked ok, I've never seen that much variation in hand-applied drag pressure on a filler spool. Including letting go entirely a few times. I don't know if I even wanna go cast this backlash factory he created, before I take it home and re-wind it.
I think this kind of spooling is the kind that will slip, and most likely dig in.
Quote from: MarkT on April 30, 2024, 07:44:34 PMIf you're trying to fail, you're going about it the wrong way. You start with good knot cinched down tight and then tight wraps on the spool. Try tying a bad knot, not cinched down and then put the line on without much tension. Then you'll succeed, if that's what you call success!
:-[ Can you tell me what is a bad knot to use ,other than the basic arbor knot . Or show some examples please , something tells me all knots can fail .
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on April 30, 2024, 07:54:31 PMSo as fate would have it the experience of this afternoon gave me something to add to this.
I took a new reel to the shop to get spooled (metal spool baitcaster not a plastic spool spinner but nonetheless).
Dude looked at me funny when I said no I don't want mono backing but I do want tape on the spool. Then started a discussion about ways line fails on spools. It really highlighted how much misinformation is out there.
I hesitantly mentioned that if a knot is well tied, with a few arbor loops, anecdotal evidence shows the tape is unnecessary. but this spool has holes drilled so the tape helps with the sharp edges. And I'm glad I did it because even though his knot looked ok, I've never seen that much variation in hand-applied drag pressure on a filler spool. Including letting go entirely a few times. I don't know if I even wanna go cast this backlash factory he created, before I take it home and re-wind it.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/38/17471-081023145622-383432237.gif)
I am not picking on you but after reading your post , you fell into a trap ,
" me thinks " .
I have a hard time thinking why you took a special spool to save weight and added tape to it . Now it is the same or more heaver that the stock spool . The tape is now covering the hole that let water out and let the line dry . Unless the holes were not dressed before finishing " Sharpe edges " Machine spooling is only good as the person spooling , I prefer to spool my own reels for a reason . OH OH if you get down to the last layer of line on the spool , your fishing technique needs tweaking . :D
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 30, 2024, 10:37:24 PMQuote from: MarkT on April 30, 2024, 07:44:34 PMIf you're trying to fail, you're going about it the wrong way. You start with good knot cinched down tight and then tight wraps on the spool. Try tying a bad knot, not cinched down and then put the line on without much tension. Then you'll succeed, if that's what you call success!
:-[ Can you tell me what is a bad knot to use ,other than the basic arbor knot . Or show some examples please , something tells me all knots can fail .
I'm not spooling up some little baitcaster with an ultra light spool so that a couple of wraps of tape doesn't matter. Even on a small baitcaster a wrap or 2 of vet wrap weights what, a couple of grams? Not a negative for performance, especially at the bottom of the spool.
I've never tied an arbor knot. I usually go with a uni knot. But any crappy knot tied by most spooling up their reel... a few half hitches, whatever, is a bad knot. Any knot (including an arbor knot) not cinched down well is a crappy knot. Plenty of people probably assume that the knot isn't key because if a fish takes you to the knot it's probably not stopping there! Then, in addition, if you don't spool it up under tension, well, that's how it can slip on the spool!
All knots are crappy ,even the one I tied . It will slip faster than a old lady on a icy sidewalk . Please explain : I've never tied an arbor knot. I usually go with a uni knot.
I am trying to lean new tricks .
A few wraps around the spool or like I do a double clove hitch then a uni, pull tight.
I didn't wanna derail your thread with talk of a baitcaster but then I realized I have exactly 88 parts to the reason to not feel bad.
Not a special light spool. Just a stock abu lopro baitcaster. For now.
I think what matters is the knot keeps the tension. The time I saw the failure I was re-using old braid because I was just stripping it off with the drill at high speed to check spinner guide placement so I just did a slip knot. Well, it was true to it's name.
Pretend the loop of line that goes around the arbor is a coin. Flip that coin, and do some of the same tests. I'm very interested if that changes results.
Quote from: Keta on April 30, 2024, 11:57:42 PMA few wraps around the spool or like I do a double clove hitch then a uni, pull tight.
I respect your knowledge , so I assume that you start with Dacron with back to back clove hitches , then tie into braid with the uni knot .
Dacron does hold ,I can not get it to slip by hand pull . Braid on the other hand, side by side test fails .
Yes one side of the coin works and the other side of the coin fails.
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 01, 2024, 01:24:52 AMYes one side of the coin works and the other side of the coin fails.
My friends I think we've solved it. How to make line slip on a spool is tie the knot backwards. Ladies and gentlemen, you're quite welcome. I'll sign autographs for a small fee.
:) Before you start signing autographs Think of braid knots as 1-9292327464
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 01, 2024, 01:17:17 AMI respect your knowledge , so I assume that you start with Dacron with back to back clove hitches , then tie into braid with the uni knot .
Dacron does hold ,I can not get it to slip by hand pull . Braid on the other hand, side by side test fails .
Both dacron and spectra.
:) :) :) :) :) Well after reading the posts and uni knot is mention , tried another version of the 4 turn under arbor . See you got me thinking again . Instead of tying a Rapala knot , I tied a uni knot.
What I like about the uni knot is once the knot is sh-inched up the 4 turns are always locked up . Another note is when you try to pull it backwards ,I am about 12-15 pounds pull to get it to slip . Pull it forward no slip .
So I unspooled and respooled the reel in question. Knot sat about a quarter inch from the spool arbor. When I tried to cinch it down to see if I could skip retying it pulled through instead.
Never trust another man's knot. Never. Lesson learned. It's like I wanna give people the benefit of the doubt. But sometimes I wanna stop.
:) I know ,there is a lot of members of the pig tail club .
Okay, I am going to do a PSA here for a lot of folks following this thread that may be into vintage reels and are reading and learning from the sidelines: DO NOT tie off to your spool on the little mushroom nub and call it good. Convenient and easy - yes. That is only pressed in, and it will fail when you don't want it to. Sure, you can tie off to it as a starting point, but then use a good knot that actually wraps around the spool. "But John, if a fish spools me down that far what difference does it make?" If a fish spools you, yeah you're pretty much screwed. But if your rod happens to go overboard... seen it happen, and when you are handlining up from a rats nest tangle (especially if you kicked the reel into free spool to give him slack while the deckhand was working on the science project in front of him) you will be thankful that the final connection to your rig is solid. I have seen outfits brought back from the deep twice; and while I was not on last year's SOA trip I believe it even happened there. It's not an uncommon occurrence, and if tying an extra knot can help avoid the heartbreak...- john
The thing is when you get spooled, something happens next. The weak point is discovered. Maybe it's your leader knot maybe hook knot, maybe your arbor knot, maybe your reel's gears.
But if it's the arbor knot you lost a full spool of line in addition to the fish. And polluted the ocean with a full spools worth of braid, whose ecological impact is unlikely to be limited to that one fish on the hook.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on May 01, 2024, 11:12:37 AMAnd polluted the ocean with a full spools worth of braid, whose ecological impact is unlikely to be limited to that one fish on the hook.
Spectra floats and can cause a lot of trouble when caught in props and prop shaft seals. This is why most of my reels have heavier spectra than the topshot.
THE OHANA KNOT
That is what I want to call it . It was developed here on this site with a bolt and string and reading all your input posts , thinking and analyzing everything . Joint effort
I have been looking all over to see if there is anything remotely tied like this for braid to arbor . All 3 version of it . I have not found anything . Everything that I looked at and read goes back to tape and a backing to prevent slip on the arbor
Need testers and lookers to verify it works and can be called the Ohana knot .
If this pans out , need someone to make the instruction video , I really really suck at public speaking . Looking forward to see your results .
Interesting
Good for you on testing different arbor knots, but it is a bit of a stretch to say that you have cured braid slipping on an actual filled spool.
You are starting with an unproven assertion that the knot is the problem, and not the spool fill. Zero testing on full spools slipping and then your "better" arbor knot solving the slippage compared to other arbor tying methods using the same spool filling regimen.
In my experience, several different knots will hold just fine if you put a few extra wraps on the spool before tying the knot. No tape needed. The statement that "Everything that I looked at and read goes back to tape and a backing to prevent slip on the arbor" is contradicted , even on this very thread.
Lots of stuff goes wrong with a low tension spool fill with braid, including line slipping. We don't know the actual mechanism(s) for the slippage, but there are several theories in this thread - and they all rely on a loose fill as the root cause.
I am 100% behind looking at how to improve arbor knots. I just don't think that we are doing a service for the average casual reader who comes here to find out what to do about braid slipping, skims this thread, and comes away with a new knot instead of a properly filled spool.
Here is an analogy for you: wheels coming off of cars because some folk are not properly tightening the lug nuts. The best solution will not be coming up with an "improved" Nylock lug nut. :)
-J
:) I am here to learn and share information . What provoked me to start this thread is to myth bust some thing that are out there . I am not picking on the people who posted the u tubes , I just don`t agree with their fixes . I will break down some of my thoughts in following posts . Here are 2 example were the braid stack rolls around the arbors .
::) Friendly banter . Do you mean this guy .
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 01, 2024, 08:22:02 PM::) Friendly banter . Do you mean this guy .
I have to admit that that made me laugh. :d
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on May 01, 2024, 10:22:45 PMQuote from: oldmanjoe on May 01, 2024, 08:22:02 PM::) Friendly banter . Do you mean this guy .
I have to admit that that made me laugh. :d
-J
:D Good , because I did giggle a little when I posted it . Gotta have a little fun .. :d
Quote from: jurelometer on May 01, 2024, 10:22:45 PMQuote from: oldmanjoe on May 01, 2024, 08:22:02 PM::) Friendly banter . Do you mean this guy .
I have to admit that that made me laugh. :d
-J
I can claim expert status in this one.
#66
May 01, 2024, 05:15:33 PM Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 05:16:05 PM by jurelometer
Good for you on testing different arbor knots, but it is a bit of a stretch to say that you have cured braid slipping on an actual filled spool.
Answer I did not get there yet ,you are asking me about the 3 floor . Still waiting on the final inspection on the foundation .
You are starting with an unproven assertion that the knot is the problem, and not the spool fill. Zero testing on full spools slipping and then your "better" arbor knot solving the slippage compared to other arbor tying methods using the same spool filling regimen.
Answer The 2 u tubes I posted #67 already debunk this statement.
In my experience, several different knots will hold just fine if you put a few extra wraps on the spool before tying the knot. No tape needed.
Answer I agree with you , as long as the knot is going in the rite direction . I do have a u tube for this also .Face value it looks good I`ll call it the 50-50 knot . Need to pay attention to the details
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cghRdGdkLPg
The statement that "Everything that I looked at and read goes back to tape and a backing to prevent slip on the arbor" is contradicted , even on this very thread.
Answer Ok Let me change everything to most .
Lots of stuff goes wrong with a low tension spool fill with braid, including line slipping.
Answer I agree 100% with this statement also.
We don't know the actual mechanism(s) for the slippage, but there are several theories in this thread - and they all rely on a loose fill as the root cause.
Answer We can look at pictures and diagnosis the problem , Most times it is a bad install . Braid telegraph its sins when loose or leaves a foot print .
I am 100% behind looking at how to improve arbor knots. I just don't think that we are doing a service for the average casual reader who comes here to find out what to do about braid slipping, skims this thread, and comes away with a new knot instead of a properly filled spool.
Answer Speed reading and technical information usual lacks good comprehension .
Hopefully we can teach them what to look for and test this for them self's
It`s all in the detail , that get overlooked that creates the troubles.
Here is an analogy for you: wheels coming off of cars because some folk are not properly tightening the lug nuts. The best solution will not be coming up with an "improved" Nylock lug nut.
Answer Still get a giggle . Backward knot/nut syndrome .
As soon as I get the sign off for the foundation , I can start on the first floor.
In the mean time here is another thread that face valve looks good , but I see flaws . Again it`s the details .
https://www.thehulltruth.com/sportfishing-charters-forum/1092791-proper-line-spooling-technique.html
Thanks Joe for the thoughtful reply. I think I better understand where you are going with this.
I think that following observation is useful for a successful arbor knot:
If you tie the arbor knot to tighten as you wind, the line tension increases the grip on the arbor. BUT... with a fuller spool, the friction between all the wraps prevents any pulling load from reaching the arbor. And since braid has very little stretch compared to nylon, once the spool is filled, there is little residual tension in the line to pull on the knot. So the arbor knot just sits there, probably a bit less tight then when we started and not getting any tighter when we pull line from the filled spool.
Now the effect of pulling on the line is more like gripping the arbor knot and its coils with a pair of channel locks and turning the whole tie off around the arbor.
The trick that seems to works for me is wrapping over the tag end as Jerry Brown recommended, and is shown in the video below.
Not exactly certain as to why it might work, but I think that the compressive load from the fill presses the tag against the arbor at many points along the axis instead of around the axis. The knot cannot rotate without taking the sideways tag with it.
My theory was that the specific knot is not as important as wrapping over the tag properly. But to be honest, I haven't done any rigorous testing to prove that the tag (or knot) is the key vs just doing a better job on the spool fill. I tried it all together. Too much work to do a bunch of spool fills to prove a theory.
-J
So I keep circling back mentally to the recent experience at the shop. Specifically that the person who was strongly in favor of mono backing to avoid slipping, tying an arbor knot with braid that ultimately failed completely. Not slipping on the spool, the tag end slipped thru and the knot was history. Complete failure.
I've been beating around the bush here because I hate insulting anyone. The point I'm circling around is that he felt that mono was necessary to prevent slipping, because he might not be that good at tying knots in general.
Soooo, the take-away for me is 1) don't let someone else tie the line to spool knot, nor should I trust the "shop" to wind it right, much like I don't trust mechanics and have to inspect everything they do that I can see. Use a self tightening knot, faced the right way. Maybe de-line it more than I wanna and check or re-do the knot and lower coil tightness.
Guy did my timing belt(including pulleys, hoses, radiator fluid, water pump and thermostat), but he didn't use what I expected him to with the fluid I bought. Overheating light came on a week latter. He didn't TAKE THE TIME to "burp" the cooling system, and over the next 3 days, I added about a gallon.
Difficult to tell if lug nuts are tight once the vehicle is off the lift/jack. The weight of the vehicle might put pressure on the wheels/loose nuts making them seem tight.
Guy in the 1st video complained about braid wrapping on the rod tip. One has to untwist about 100' of braid every couple of trips, especially if there's been any trolling.
Quote from: jurelometer on May 02, 2024, 05:55:19 PMThanks Joe for the thoughtful reply. I think I better understand where you are going with this.
I am going to answer line by line again . I think it will help grasp what I am trying to convey for those who read this . You don`t have to take my word as the Gospel Truth , all you have to do is test it for your self . Since this is theory , there is no stupid questions ,so please ask them . We all learn from them .
I think that following observation is useful for a successful arbor knot:
Answer Back a page or two I left what appears as a telephone number ,it`s in two places ,it is the answer on how to view a knot. Yes you can use your phone keypad for the answer . Get the bolt or smooth rod and 2 foot of string ready so you can prove to yourself some theory can be changed to fact.
If you tie the arbor knot to tighten as you wind, the line tension increases the grip on the arbor.
Answer yes again detail knot direction .
BUT... with a fuller spool, the friction between all the wraps prevents any pulling load from reaching the arbor. And since braid has very little stretch compared to nylon, once the spool is filled, there is little residual tension in the line to pull on the knot
Answer So what was the target drag to start to spool with ? For easy math let`s say 100 pound braid , 25-50 -75 pounds drag?
So the arbor knot just sits there, probably a bit less tight then when we started and not getting any tighter when we pull line from the filled spool.
Answer why would it be less ,it`s target drag from the fill spool. Detail The first layer goes side by side tight from end to end .
Now the effect of pulling on the line is more like gripping the arbor knot and its coils with a pair of channel locks and turning the whole tie off around the arbor.
The trick that seems to works for me is wrapping over the tag end as Jerry Brown recommended, and is shown in the video below.
Not exactly certain as to why it might work, but I think that the compressive load from the fill presses the tag against the arbor at many points along the axis instead of around the axis. The knot cannot rotate without taking the sideways tag with it.
Answer I disagree with the start of line going over the arbor. The ones who are testing with the bolt and string can test this also. The tag end is the band aid ,like a strip of tape . Why cut the tag so short, come back to the knot 180 degrees 2 strip band aid . He needed to rap most /all of the arbor first to do a pull test.
If he did two wraps and pulled , Ops .
My theory was that the specific knot is not as important as wrapping over the tag properly. But to be honest, I haven't done any rigorous testing to prove that the tag (or knot) is the key vs just doing a better job on the spool fill. I tried it all together. Too much work to do a bunch of spool fills to prove a theory. Answer We can bust the myth , we can scale back the size of the reel and spool and put the heat to it . I have a couple OC 112 for test mules .
-J
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on May 02, 2024, 06:26:38 PMSo I keep circling back mentally to the recent experience at the shop. Specifically that the person who was strongly in favor of mono backing to avoid slipping, tying an arbor knot with braid that ultimately failed completely. Not slipping on the spool, the tag end slipped thru and the knot was history. Complete failure.
I've been beating around the bush here because I hate insulting anyone. The point I'm circling around is that he felt that mono was necessary to prevent slipping, because he might not be that good at tying knots in general.
Sounds like a DIY project . Here just in case .https://www.animatedknots.com/fishing-knots#ScrollPoint
I know you wear flip flops or go bare foot . Yes friendly banter . :d :d
Quote from: Gfish on May 02, 2024, 07:19:41 PMSoooo, the take-away for me is 1) don't let someone else tie the line to spool knot, nor should I trust the "shop" to wind it right, much like I don't trust mechanics and have to inspect everything they do that I can see. Use a self tightening knot, faced the right way. Maybe de-line it more than I wanna and check or re-do the knot and lower coil tightness.
Guy did my timing belt(including pulleys, hoses, radiator fluid, water pump and thermostat), but he didn't use what I expected him to with the fluid I bought. Overheating light came on a week latter. He didn't TAKE THE TIME to "burp" the cooling system, and over the next 3 days, I added about a gallon.
Difficult to tell if lug nuts are tight once the vehicle is off the lift/jack. The weight of the vehicle might put pressure on the wheels/loose nuts making them seem tight.
Guy in the 1st video complained about braid wrapping on the rod tip. One has to untwist about 100' of braid every couple of trips, especially if there's been any trolling.
I would watch him do some one else reel and watch for the details . Than you can decide is he your guy or turn and walk away.
Yer they forget to burp the baby. You can check the lug nuts on the ground , in fact I would see if you can loosen one a little . Impact guns will get them stupid tight . That spool had a extra free spool feature going on .
Too bad quality Spectra grade line winders are so expensive.
I think we are going in circles here. It is kind of hard to do this in a thread- feel free to join us at the weekly Zoom(s) video conference this Saturday- I should be at the AM, and maybe the PM too. Anyone else interested- it is open to all members- unstructured and usually fun:
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,31840.0.html (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,31840.0.html)
But in a nutshell:
Wrapping tighter than limit of elasticity will not store any more tension in the line, it will just make it elongate, which could decrease tension on your arbor knot, plus weakening the braid from elongation plus compression fractures across the woven braid fibers.
For normal fishing I would guess not to go beyond 10% of the stated line class. You are not going to be rewinding any tighter when you are actually fishing with it. The cow tuna chasers are probably weakening the line a little with their crazy tight fills, but that is probably a worthwhile tradeoff to avoid having the line dig in on a blistering run at 30 lbs of drag.
And..
The arbor knot grips by friction against the spool. The friction comes from whatever grip you get from orignally cinching the knot down tight plus whatever additional cinching that is coming via the tension from the standing end.
Once there are enough wraps, the tension from pulling on the end of the line won't make it to the arbor knot. so we just have the stored energy to make tension- not much of that available with braid. So the arbor knot is not gripping as tightly once the spool gets filled.
Nylon will stretch as you cinch it down- storing energy - but braid not so much- sort of like wrapping a rubber band vs. soft wire tightly around the arbor (an exaggeration to make my point).
So testing with just an arbor knot and no spool fill is always going to grip better at the arbor than a filled spool.
On a fuller spool, the bottom wraps against the arbor has a lower COF than the rest of the fill against the bottom wraps, so the whole thing is going to spin eventually. The goal is to get enough friction in place on the bottom layer to make this a moot point. Which I think might be a rewording of you were saying.
-J
Not a fan of electrical tape.
That's not good.
:) Cocktail hour is running into overtime so i will keep this short . As a mechanic I post this . https://www.unirope.com/winding-rope-onto-multiple-layer-drum-system/
Short read with pictures .
Good one Joe. The part that struck me was....
"If the first layer, or layers, are only used from time to time, they will loose their tension on the drum and start to flatten out due to the high pressures of the loaded layers. Repeat this pre-tensioning procedure regularly."
:) I didn`t want to jump the gun . Just trying to show there more than meets the eye .
That article is about wire rope. Laid wire rope is very different than loosely woven PE braid that is going to always lay flat as you wind it. Braid doesn't even have a real measurable diameter. Wire rope loses some usefulness and probably strength if it gets deformed from being flattened. Braid don't care unless you pretty much crush it.
Both are relatively low-stretch products, so the difficulty in maintaining tension in the bottom coils could be something in common, but I would hesitate in drawing too many conclusions from such vastly different materials.
—————-
An idea hit me on how to make progress: You folk keep trying to solve this problem the hard way. Instead of trying to solve it for you in various ways, allow me to lay out the problem in a more solvable format for anyone interested to take a whack at. I will probably learn some more stuff myself in the process :) :
Instead of looking at spool slipping from the inside out (starting at the arbor knot - this is the hard way), how about looking from the outside in? This way, you will be following the load from the source to the slip, just the way that it is actually happening in real life.
I think that these are the key questions:
How and where does the force that leads to slippage transfer from linear to radial? How much and how far can some of this linear directed energy pass into and through the line? Will any of this energy travel all way to the arbor? If the spool fill is rotating, what type of force causes this rotation? What forces resist this rotation? Does surface contact area matter for this resistance? Are there multiple frictional surfaces of the line on the spool, and do the number of frictional surfaces matter for this resistance? What is the effect of compressive forces on the fill, and is the effect different at different fill depths? What is different about nylon monofilament that makes spool slippage a non-problem?
Some of the above has been discussed in this thread, some of it is discussed in intro-to-physics explanations of sliding friction, and some of is from our observations of spool fills that slip. But we have pretty much all of this information at hand, and I think that this makes the answer to the question in the title of the thread reasonably apparent.
The answer is at your doorstep. You just have to make sure that you are looking out the front door. ;D
-J
If I read it right ,I think you are asking me to reverse engineer the problem .
I did and came to the conclusion that it is a bad install from the start for braid application. Braid is a different animal, and you can`t treat it like mono .
Different cof I believe it needs different install procedure.
I am not a fan of machine winding spools , to many bad practices .
Can you or any one else find one on U tube that is done to your satisfaction ? I don`t want to post the ones that I have watched , some are real "c"hit shows . Do some weeding I think that garden is bigger than you think . It`s the details that make the difference
Quote from: oc1 on May 04, 2024, 05:47:37 AMGood one Joe. The part that struck me was....
"If the first layer, or layers, are only used from time to time, they will loose their tension on the drum and start to flatten out due to the high pressures of the loaded layers. Repeat this pre-tensioning procedure regularly."
I hope you post a little more . I know that you know some stuff ....
Quote from: jurelometer on May 04, 2024, 11:48:15 PMWhat is different about nylon monofilament that makes spool slippage a non-problem?
Mono nylon stretches and pops spools. Spectra braid doesn't stretch and doesn't pop spools. Having the line slip on the spool was unheard of until Spectra braid came on the scene.
Quote from: oc1 on May 05, 2024, 06:48:22 AMQuote from: jurelometer on May 04, 2024, 11:48:15 PMWhat is different about nylon monofilament that makes spool slippage a non-problem?
Mono nylon stretches and pops spools. Spectra braid doesn't stretch and doesn't pop spools. Having the line slip on the spool was unheard of until Spectra braid came on the scene.
Catching 100#ers on a Jigmaster size reel was unheard of until braid came along too!
Show the problem some love and it will love you back. Patience is a virtue.
Blowing out spools is not exactly what keeps nylon from slipping. But agree that it does demonstrate that nylon is applying more force to the spool surfaces than PE braid. So that is one of the things (among several) that is different.
Here's a hint: The reason that this force from the mono trying to expand matters in preventing slippage is that force pressing two surfaces together is one of the variables for computing sliding friction (the amount of force it takes to cause sliding). The surface area does not affect frictional force, but the effect of multiple frictional surfaces is cumulative (this is how a drag stack works).
If we want less slippage, we want some combination of more force pressing the line against the spool surfaces, more friction surfaces, and/or increased coefficient of friction.
The easy way out is to bump up the COF on a smooth arbor by applying some flex tape.
-J
:) Patience is a virtue. "preaching to the choir" :d
Looks like people coming in and lighting candles , but not sitting in the pews.
I don`t want to preach /teach to a empty church , give me input I will give you output .
There is a lot of misinformation ,bad practices and not paying attention at times and the lack of details . Pull up random videos , watch / look for the mistakes .
Here is something to look at , why does the line spool up on it`s own in a level manor ?
Reading through this thread one thing I've noticed, when talking about line slipping on the arbor. The one variable not has not been introduced is a FULL spool. And a full or nearly full spool is where we experience slippage.
In other discussions regarding drag numbers, is the leverage applied with a spool full of line. We know that as a fish runs and decreases the spool height drag numbers increase. This is due to the fulcrum effect.
A proper test would be to fill the spool completely then apply pressure. Now I wouldn't want to do this without a winder. But in testing, first start with no knot or tape on the arbor fill and pull. Then add different knots, tape, grease, winding pressure, etc, until satisfactory results are obtained.
Bill
Quote from: Bill B on May 07, 2024, 03:52:18 PMReading through this thread one thing I've noticed, when talking about line slipping on the arbor. The one variable not has not been introduced is a FULL spool. And a full or nearly full spool is where we experience slippage.
&& OK The first question is how much slip are you seeing : 1 rotation , 10 rotation than it grabs or the worst that you can`t gain any line under full drag " the whole stack is slipping ?
In other discussions regarding drag numbers, is the leverage applied with a spool full of line. We know that as a fish runs and decreases the spool height drag numbers increase. This is due to the fulcrum effect.
&& Very good question ,most people don`t think about it . That is one of the details I want to touch on . This is another problem child that should be in mind when installing line on the reel . I will get into some more later . Please look at some Utube videos , pick one and post it for analysis . It is easier to point out the small mistakes that just keep adding up .
A proper test would be to fill the spool completely then apply pressure. Now I wouldn't want to do this without a winder. But in testing, first start with no knot or tape on the arbor fill and pull. Then add different knots, tape, grease, winding pressure, etc, until satisfactory results are obtained.
&& I have been watching lots of videos , close to a hundred . I found 3 good knots . Most knots tied were set for failure . [ I am not kidding about playing with a bolt and string you will feel the difference ] I have watch a guy do fairly good ready for a "Tha boy " than do another that was R "c"hit Start with a good foundation and build from there .
Bill
The line spools up evenly 'cause tight coils under good winding pressure force the new coil under linear pressure down, but off to the side. Stupid sounding explaination, but that's all I got.
If that was you, you godda make more grunting-groaning noise to help yourself along there😀.
More specifically, if a fish is pulling 10 pounds of force where the line meets a full spool, it will have greater leverage than pulling at 10 lbs on a half full spool - in other words, generating more torque. Spool slippage is a battle lost between the static friction of the line to the arbor and the torque being applied. We care about the spool slipping before the line breaks, so another reason why a full spool is the best test.
The most interesting tests in my opinion would be a loose first two layers, and then tight the rest of the fill, and then vice versa. Try with a non slipping arbor not, and an arbor knot that is a the slippy side. It would require some controlled experiments with steady tension, which would mean a mechanical spooler modified with a strain gauge. If you did a set of runs with consistent results, you would probably have your answer. I think I know what will happen.
Faking it out by filling by hand and guestimating tension, and with a small sample size is an option. It might get you in the ballpark, but could also be mislead you.
Having said this, there is no downside to getting the arbor knot to lock in as much as possible. I think it is the important first step, just that it is not going to save you if you screw up the fill.
In terms of bad how-to videos on fishing topics from wannabe "web influencers" and even so-called reputable magazines, I am not inclined to call out the wrong ones. Wrong is ubiquitous, and doing it the wrong way is not horribly instructive. The best sources are folks that are subject matter experts who would hear it from customers/clients if the method did not work. They may not be doing it the best way, and they often misunderstand why their method works, but the odds are they have found a suitable method.
Even though I disagree sometimes with our Mr Tani, I think his videos and tutorials are a good example on how to do it right. He will show how he does it, and why, point out the problems with methods he avoids, and doesn't claim that this is the only or best method, just what works best for him. If you want to worry a bit less about slippage and go the flex wrap route, his instructions here are all you need.
If you are like me, and stubbornly refuse to flex-wrap, I think that the video I referenced above looks pretty good to me. I don't think the reverse San Diego is the only knot that will work. The key is wrapping over a long tag, and getting that first layer (or two) down evenly and as tight as you can go. If you don't flex wrap, I would tend to avoid using a grease pretreatment to protect the spool from saltwater corrosion as Mr Tani does. In the video, the guy is using Boeshield (similar products would probably do about the same). I use a couple coats of Carnuba wax, but that will probably take too long for shop fills.
Here a link to the video again:
-J
I will try this product, I trust Captain Nappo. However I think the Boeshield t9 is something similar to the XCorrision
What I feel should be done to spool a reel for less trouble ..
What is the intended use of the reel , Big game with some heavy drag ?
What line is used to spool 'Test pound " For easy math lets say 100 pound .
Would 70 pounds max drag be a safe working load , not that you will be in that territory all the time What is the intended strike drag 20-30 pounds ?
So now you have the reel chuck up on the machine . Place the supply spool in the rite orientation to feed the reel spool. Set the drag on the supply spool brake to 20- 30 pounds "strike "
Tie a good knot . Start laying the wrap side by side close and tight , when you come to end , "sidewall ' Make a clean ramp to start the next layer and come across as you did the first layer . Keep repeating layer after layer . Do not make piles , hills or pot hole . Fix them rite away
It does take patience and technic ,go slow . This needs to be done all the way up . What do you see happening when watching other fill a reel
Quote from: Gfish on May 07, 2024, 09:08:20 PMThe line spools up evenly 'cause tight coils under good winding pressure force the new coil under linear pressure down, but off to the side. Stupid sounding explaination, but that's all I got.
If that was you, you godda make more grunting-groaning noise to help yourself along there😀.
The level spooling is the effect of fleet angle . Think of boom cranes and how they wind cable up and down and keep the cable from jumping over it self. As far as weight 2 ounce on this line works .
Man I have been fighting a upper respiratory cold for 3 weeks . I was conducting a test to see how fast drag changes from half to empty 8 to 12 pounds .
Here is a video , that I can post with out bruising any ones ego . Pay attention to the details.
One question can come out of this . What do you see ,
I came across two videos worth while watching , the first one is showing what happens in the spool when the line digs in to the spool . Wait to see the bottom .
The second one ,is how hollow core braid is spun together .
Man, they completely mis-diagnose that reel. How on earth was the braid in the middle supposed to have slipped when it was tied through the arbor and then taped over for good luck? Short answer is it didn't slip on the arbor, it was just spooled on with no tension.
That case has user error written all over it
.I have been looking for a braid formula, can not find one . I have using rope formula for calculations . I did come across this :
Setting the Drag for Braided Line With braided lines up to 20-pound-test, set the drag at 15 percent of the line's breaking strength. With 30- through 65-pound braid, set it at 20 percent. With braid that tests at more than 65 pounds, go with 25 percent.
And than I found this
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=23133.0
I was really glad to see it written about the think that using the spool in 1/3 . The foundation , the fighting 1/3 and the working top third .
All good information .