I was curious as to what others thoughts and feelings are on the use of manufacturer-specific Lubricants.
In other words... most reel manufacturers come lubricated with products specific to their reels. Some have propriatory products, of which some or all may or may not be wholly transparent and available to the public. While others may use externally developed/marketed products on their reels.
To what extent are lubrication products taken into account during the development and production of reels?
What I am getting at is the notion that a particular reel will somehow perform better when lubricated to factory specs. It is not uncommon for a customer to ask that his reels be lubricated with the same products that were used when it was released from the factory. While most of us reel mechanics adhere to the Alan Tani method of servicing, and we chose lubrication products based on our and others experience, and knowledge. We realize that reels from different manufacturers share much in terms of function and design, and that using our trusted lubrication products in all the reels we service is a good choice.
Are their instances (i.e. high end spinners, baitcasters) where a reel will really perform better using that manufacturer's proprietary products? Or, in all (or most) cases can we achieve the same or better performance, protection, longevity by using what we consider to be the best products for the specific application, regardless of manufacturer?
One instance that immediately comes to mind, when considering such things is the use of Cal's drag grease on carbon fiber drags. Most of us believe this to be the best product for this application, and would not hesitate to replace the factory grease (or lackthereof) with it. However the lay customer might believe their reel would be better served being lubricated the same as it was when it left the factory. In this case, (and others) we have to simply ask the customer to trust our knowledge.
Maybe I am reading too much into this, but manufacturers often promote their lubricating products as being somehow perfect for their products. I believe, we all understand that there are differences in design, mechanical operation, tollerances, and the like between models and manufacturers, and likewise inherent differences in composition/properties of different lubricants. However, these differences do not necessarily Warrent using manufacturer-specific Lubricants.
I guess what I am getting at is...
Are there any specific instances where we should only use manufacturermanufacturer-specific lubricants when servicing a specific reel?
There is often a prevailing ideology that sending your reel back to the factory for service is somehow superior to having an independent reel mechanics service their reel, and along with this notion is the idea that everything will be rebuilt to factory specs., using manufacturer-specific Lubricants, tightening shimming etc.. to manufacturer tollerances and torques.
Many of us like to think that we can do as good of a job, ( if not better then) the factory on servicing reels. This idea is sometimes linked to the use of what we believe to be better use of the type and application of specific lubricants then the factory. Whereas some factory techs may take exception to this, and complain that independent servicing if their products is inferior..
You often hear complaints of using too much grease.
Probably overthinking this one again, but I would be curious to hear what fellow AT members think on the use of manufacture-specific lubricants.
great question John!
That is a great question, and although I don't know the answers I do know that the lubricants I use are the best in the business for this or any other type of reel service. I will be reading this thread.
As in many vocations, I think that the quality of service depends more on the man behind the profession rather than the profession behind the man.
Even with inhouse servicing, there are differing levels of expertise among staff and not all techs would be allowed to work on high end products.
I have been informed that the propriety service techs here do not undergo any special inhouse training.
As for lubricants, are things any better?
Most small companies use outsourced lubricants, some better than others, while the big boys can go to extreme lengths in developing their own excellent products.
Just checkout this Shimano range on this site: http://japantackle.com/tools-and-others/grease-oil.html (http://japantackle.com/tools-and-others/grease-oil.html)
Their inhouse techs have developed subtle variations in application depending on the model being serviced to achieve the best potential outcome for a specific reel. I would love to work at their service department for a few weeks, I am sure I would learn much I could deploy in my own practice.
~
I don't know how a reel service tech could be expected know what was in the reel as it came from the factory. The manufacturer doesn't say and it's likely to be more complex than that one little tube of stuff that came in the box.
-steve
I would be rather careful doing anything with Daiwa's magsealed bearings.
Other than that... reels get greased/oiled with whatever I'm using at the moment - which happens to be Shimano drag grease and a lithium-based bearing grease that seems to do a nice job.
I'm probably going to move onto Cal's and CorrosionX in the near future though.
When shimano acknowledged that their proprietary oil was nothing more than mineral oil, I have avoided lubes from every reel manufacturer.
Yeah, I've seen and heard of a lot of smoke and mirrors from many manufacturers regarding lubricants. The truth is they use they best they can get for the least amount of $$$. It's a business decision, and I get that. Personally, I use Cal's drag grease, TSI 321, and Bel Ray waterproof marine grease when I service a reel.
Quote from: RiverAngler on June 15, 2016, 12:44:21 PM
The truth is they use they best they can get for the least amount of $$$.
The above does not hold true to all reel manufactures. Accurate uses Reel-X for their oil and Okuma uses TSI on bearings that are lubed like in the Makaira SEa reels. Neither lube is the cheapest they can get away with.
I assume that using only what the manufacturer uses would be like only putting on the same tires your car came with.
I looked at the different Shimano greases and below that they carry a grease with nano diamond particles. Give me a break..!!
Quote from: handi2 on June 16, 2016, 12:04:55 AM
I looked at the different Shimano greases and below that they carry a grease with nano diamond particles. Give me a break..!!
Yeah, that had me scratching my head; the hardest, most expensive grinding paste available ???
Quote from: handi2 on June 16, 2016, 12:04:55 AM
I looked at the different Shimano greases and below that they carry a grease with nano diamond particles. Give me a break..!!
More bling for your reel. :D
I have never talked to the makers on this one but we are seeing more and more reels well prepped from their respective factories than ever before.
Accurate uses Cal's and Reel-ex.
Okuma uses a marine grease plus Corrosion-X HD and TSI 321.
Penn uses a proprietary grease that is very good plus a very good and fast oil. They have proprietary drag lubes etc.
Even Fin Nor in the Lethal 100 was using 2 different lubes in the reel for part specific ideal performance.
Shimano of course has their own drag grease, gear grease and worm drive greases...all to promote their goal of smoothness.
There may be some companies using "any old crap" but those days are long gone in companies trying to protect their literally billions of dollars of yearly revenue. Its a new game out there that guys like Alan have made a reality...a few pennies worth of lube at the factory are leading to happier customers.
Ok, here I go putting my foot in my mouth again!
Do not use Cal's for general lubrication. The liquid fractions in it seem to "evaporate" over time eventually leaving a thick dry paste which impedes operation instead of providing positive lubrication. This happens over several years in our hot climate.
Do not use the new Penn blue grease. When saltwater hits it, it literally turns into cement powder and binds parts rock solid together.
Experience leads me to believe that it is the graphite component that is responsible for this so stay away from any lubrication product with a graphite component. However, I cannot testify as to it's performance in freshwater use.
For general purpose, I use corrosion X grease in different viscosities.
On high end gear, I like to use the excellent proprietary greases from Shimano and Daiwa.
~
Quote from: 0119 on June 15, 2016, 10:54:48 AM
When shimano acknowledged that their proprietary oil was nothing more than mineral oil, I have avoided lubes from every reel manufacturer.
LOL!
I found a couple of those little bottles earlier in the week and was wondering why I never put them to use-Thanks to you I now remember.
When we were at Penn, we toured the filling and assembly area where the Penn blue is packaged. Our man Tony described the testing and development of the Penn grease we were seeing in drums; it underwent extensive corrosion resistance testing vs. other formulas to arrive at what they use now. I use Cal's on drags of my upper end stuff, Penn on drags of everything else, marine grease on metal, and Rocket Fuel, Hot Sauce or Super Slick Stuff in bearings. wipe down when complete with Penn reel cleaner, and for aluminum reels a wipe with Corrosion block.
For me sometimes it's different products on similar reels for example bait casters that are used frequently
Like abu's that are very well worn compared to just broke in ,and others bought new this year
To get them to feel and act the same sometimes different things work.
I have read that nano diamond particles in grease when tested makes the grease last up to twice as long
And is said to reduce friction because they imbed into moving parts and act like Mini bearings
the oil with it has been used in race car engines I read that it helps at first
Quote from: thorhammer on June 17, 2016, 08:30:17 AM
When we were at Penn, we toured the filling and assembly area where the Penn blue is packaged. Our man Tony described the testing and development of the Penn grease we were seeing in drums; it underwent extensive corrosion resistance testing vs. other formulas to arrive at what they use now.
I understand your incredulity - I was considering using it myself at one time till I saw the results in reels that came in. I have seen many examples now - enough to be confident in what I say. Worst thing I have seen is a stainless spindle locked solid inside a brass pinion and these metals are very corrosion resistant. It is the graphite - it cakes solid when exposed to saltwater and sets like cement. You can see examples on my Facebook page.
I have only ever seen this effect with one other grease. It also had graphite in it.
~
Quote from: exp2000 on June 17, 2016, 02:41:35 AM
Do not use the new Penn blue grease. When saltwater hits it, it literally turns into cement powder and binds parts rock solid together.
Experience leads me to believe that it is the graphite component that is responsible for this so stay away from any lubrication product with a graphite component. However, I cannot testify as to it's performance in freshwater use.
I'm a freshwater guy, and I've not experienced any problems with Penn blue, on gears OR drags. I do appreciate the info on these lubes' performance...the manufacturers never tell their products' drawbacks...only it's advantages. The knowledge shared on this site saves a guy like me a whole lotta headaches! 8)
Penn Blue is my go-to grease for servicing large offshore reels. I have had a number of reels that have serviced come back through my shop after heavy use (confirmed through parts wear between service intervals, and I have never observed thisv'cementing' issue you mention. I have noticed it drying up where it was applied thinly (like on the inside of sideplates though. It also changes color where water intrusion occured.
I would be intetested in seeing photos of the issue you mention.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on June 17, 2016, 05:56:34 PM
Penn Blue is my go-to grease for servicing large offshore reels. I have had a number of reels that have serviced come back through my shop after heavy use (confirmed through parts wear between service intervals, and I have never observed thisv'cementing' issue you mention. I have noticed it drying up where it was applied thinly (like on the inside of sideplates though. It also changes color where water intrusion occured.
I would be intetested in seeing photos of the issue you mention.
There is a link to my Facebook page underneath my avatar. There you will find pictures and discussion.
I do not get that many Penn reels these days but I attempted to capture some good photographs of this Liveliner lubricated with the standard factory grease.
The affected grease was untypically focused around the oscillating carriage in this reel. Perhaps because of seepage via the baitrunner lever.
It had become "crystallized" and rocky lumps could be broken off.
Needless to say what this did for the performance of the reel.
~
Yikes :o
Wow.
Oh, I got excited before I went back and reread that. I saw the blue and assumed it was Yamaha grease.
No worries for me. I'm a disciple of Alan's from way back. (Geez Alan, 25+ years?) So what the Doc told me when I went to the first Fisherman's Warehouse seminar back in the 1800's still applies. The only change has been the lube for the bearings.
Yamaha, Cal's, TS321 and done. I did use Shimano drag grease for a long time just because I had a bunch.
Exp2000, the Liveliner in your excellent photos, its got a seal for the gearbox. Where do you think the saltwater gets in? I've heard other similar things about graphite n' saltwater.
Gfish
Quote from: Gfish on September 30, 2016, 03:32:58 PM
Exp2000, the Liveliner in your excellent photos, its got a seal for the gearbox. Where do you think the saltwater gets in? I've heard other similar things about graphite n' saltwater.
Gfish
Yep, graphite has always been my number one suspect in this crime.
Despite the sealed crankcase, water can still enter via the pinion or past the baitrunner switch shaft.
The irony is, once water does get past these, the gasket makes sure it stays inside.
What a PIA this is. I get some crappy stuff in here sometimes, but I am so over scrubbing concrete.
I am really considering hand-balling these back to the distribution agents. It's just too much time and too much work.
Petrified grease ! Yikes indeed ! :(
~
ok, here's a good one for you. joey found this in a new avet. it's sticky as hell. yes, i think they are now using the dreaded light blue trailer bearing grease. you know the stuff. it's horrible to work with, really sticky and stringy. i hate this grease more than any other. the sad part is that i think it will actually work. :-\
(http://alantani.com/gallery/15/1_30_09_16_11_08_23_152602017.jpeg)
Penn over the years has sold two versions of blue grease. They changed from the original blue grease to a tan colored grease sold as Muscle Grease. It is still available from the Muscle Lubricate Co. It works very well on Penn gears. The newer blue grease was first marketed as XR7. Penn bought the rights and now sells it as Penn branded lubes. The oil is thinner buts holds up well.
Another oil I use is Breakfree CLP, it contains Teflon and works very well where oil is called for.
Most of this issue have been hashed out many times on the Stripers On Line site.
Hey alan, is the tackiness a problem for lubing gears, or is it just more difficult to handle and clean that is the problem? I remember others mentioning tacky grease on here (but can't exactly remember where), but never got any further explanation other than that they aren't particularly fond of it.
Also, in regards to penn's blue grease, I like how well it handles, but don't really like to use it, because it turns really black and grimy pretty quick. It makes me question if it's really marine grease.
Open gear lube is tacky like that. It is designed to stay put and not fly off gears, shafts, couplers, etc as they spin. I've been thinking about getting some for direct drive reels. The gears spin so fast while casting that they fling away regular grease. Open gear lube is nasty to handle though.
-steve