I took some of my medium-large conventionals to the local park to test their castability. I have been using these reels for drift-baiting, trolling, and deep dropping. I don't remember distance casting any of them, time for some experimenting. The reels ranged from a Sealine 27H to a Accurate Boss Extreme, 600 size. I used 2oz. to 4oz. weights.
I was pleasently surprised with the distance/smoothness achieved once I made adjustments to my technique and spool control.
Stand-outs were the Accurate, a 2/0 Senator, a Sealine 30H.
One good cast with 4oz. on the fully modified T4N, the next one will be better yet, right? No! Hence the strange title.
What happened? I was able to reel in the 10yds. while it was still in free-spool mode...
Pictures;
1)The disassembled reel
When I got it apart, the pinion gear was stuck to the spool shaft at a slightly cockeyed angle, close, but not quite on the shaft "shoulders". The pinion collar was most of the way off, also at a uneven angle. To get it apart I had to remove the bridge screws.
2) the damaged spool shaft
3) the pinion gear won't go past this point
Can't see the damage? It's near the outside of the thick part of the shaft. Looks worse in person, almost a gouge. Turn the pinion around and it only goes this far. There's gotta be damage to the pinion i.d.
Here's the yoke. Note the damage to the 2 sections on the upper parts of either side of the "U" shaped pinion indentation, especially on the left side. Looks like normal pinion caused wear on the bottom(top in picture) of the indentation.
So the spool shaft is gouged and the i.d. of the pinion is damaged on the outside end.
Can it be fixed?
What would cause something like this?
Anyone else ever experience something like this in the middle of a cast?
Only thing I could think of, was accidently hitting the freespool lever, but I'm pretty sure I didn't, as it's in the 2 oclock position with my right hand on the rod handle/front of reel and thumb on the spool, left hand on the bottom of the rod handle.
Could something(e. jack? yoke?, something else?) have slipped out of place?
Certainly their are others here that know more of the Penn 4/0 based reels than myself. Here are my thoughts based on damage i've come across on semi auto rifles. Something very hard, a burr, some kind of grit was inside that reel that didnt belong. The damage is not galling brought about most times by metal to metal contact used as bearing surface with high friction coefficient alloys causing metal to be stripped away from friction.
As always I could be wrong but I dont think so in this case. You might give all affected parts a once over with a magnifying glass looking for metal or foreign material. Looking forward to what others have to say... Jeff
The shaft & pinion can be salvaged with a little polishing with very fine emery cloth. I don't really see anything wrong with the yoke, just slight marks from use. Rudy
My guess is the pinion got damaged when kicking into gear. I'd swap it out and polish the spool shaft before assembling/testing.
I'm with the wiser minds above. Polish everything up, get any debris out, and try it again. I will also say; on every 4/0 where I have installed an aftermarket gear set, I do go through with a Dremel on the pinion and LIGHTLY knock the edges off where it engages the spool. Kind of hard to describe, but on all of the factory gears I have seen they have a very slight ramp or bevel that allows the pinion to slide down and engage the spool with a more positive action. Obviously, you are removing material from a part that is very minimal to begin with, hence why I say "lightly". Not sure if this is what caused your issue but could be something to look at. I am probably not doing a good job describing what I am talking about so in the AM I will dig out a stock gearset and see if a picture might be worth a few thousand words... - john
I agree, John has some good points there, also polish the spool shaft & the inside of the pinion.
It maybe my imadgination but the yoke does look like it has something shiny there, maybe give that a light rub with 2000 wet & dry cloth, maybe a light lube, TSI 321, cheers Don.
Donno. Could it be that the pinion did not completely disengage from the spool? Would that mean the yoke was not pushed far enough by the ramps. Should the ramps be taller? Or, did the yoke get hung up on the bridge screws so the ramps could not push it? Is there a unthreaded section on the bridge screws for the yoke to ride on?
-steve
Got around to generating some grainy out of focus cold war era spy photos to illustrate what I was talking about above.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/33/18717_19_09_20_10_53_45.jpeg)
At roughly the 12 O Clock position on the spool shaft you will see one of the pie shaped bevels that help the pinion to drop onto the spool shaft, and:
(https://alantani.com/gallery/33/18717_19_09_20_10_54_35.jpeg)
On this blurry pinion photo you will see a corresponding shiny pie shaped bevel as well. I do not believe these are just typical "wear and tear" because they always seem pretty consistent regardless of the level of use of the reels I have torn into, but admittedly most of the ones I have got into are mine and are all of 70's/80's vintage so different years may be different. But I believe this is factory machining to aid in the pinion smoothly engaging with the spool.
- john
Thank you fishinfolks. Good info. for a plan. I'll start by polishing the pinion i.d. and the spool shaft---emery cloth and steel wool. Then round off some a those corners on the shaft "shoulders" and pinion opening---key hole files(don't scrape the spool edges!). Then partial reassemble, check to see if the e. Jack is pushing the yoke/pinion down far enough to disengage pinion from spool shoulders. Play with it after full assembly, then take it out and test-cast about 20 times, trying 1, 1.5, 2, 3, and finally the 4 oz'er.
Kinda wonder, had I been casting these last 2 yrs., insteda trolling and deep dropping, would I have had the same problem right after building it?
compadre, have you checked if the spool spins truly and smooth on the Bearings of each sideplate?
put the reel together without the pinion and check if the spool shaft is straight or bent while spins on the bearings, if spins freely maybe just the pinion got damaged, I had something similar happened on a 112h with an aftermarket Yoke (ss yoke), the yoke always pushed the pinion on a weird way causing a unsincronized gear mesh until the pinion got stock on the spool shaft, I filed the inside of the pinion with a jeweler round file until went all the way down on the shaft and engaged the spool but I installed an stock yoke instead of the SS yoke, problem solved.
Shouldn't the stainless pinion yokes have beveled shoulders like the brass ones? So you know what side is facing up on install, for a smooth disengagement and engagement of the eccentric jack. Anyhow hope you find the problem and let us know what the heck was going on in there.
I was thinking along the line of oc1 on this, are the bridge screws fully threaded or just the tip? It seems like the yoke held the pinion at an angle and with a little spool spindle wobble while casting it got bound.
Ok. Good advice = good plan = success! Testing with a 15' surf rod and 3 & 4 oz. weights, casted ok, then I found a way to cast with more force and casted great. I.e., with right hand on reel & rod handle, left hand below reel on rod handle and left elbow pushing on rod butt(rod handle about 26" from reel seat to butt)as I cast it. Sort of a fulcrum/leverage increaser.
Rudy, John, and Don's polish thing worked well. I noticed the eccrentic lever moves much more smoothly now!
Steve, Alex, Jeff and Thrasher; the causitive problem has gotta be in there, somewhere...My best guess is that Steve's guesstimate was it: the pinion didn't disengage completely from the spool shaft shoulders, which might make the e. lever movement rough(as it was before the wwwwwwwwwwahrap! happened). Yeah John, best to smooth off those aftermarket parts.
Got chance to test Alvey again, after servicing it. It casted 1.5 oz. further than the TN4 casted 4 oz. IMO, this is a surf caster "extraordinaire". Takes some getting used to, but the design, simplicity and construction is excellent. Gets almost 19" per crank, and has great 1:1---6"dia. spool, cranking power. Looks like Don(Donnyboat) went through it pretty thourghly before he sent it(2yrs. ago)and he installed c-tex drag washers, to boot! Thanks again Don!
Quote from: Gfish on September 24, 2020, 12:18:32 AM
Ok. Good advice = good plan = success! Testing with a 15' surf rod and 3 & 4 oz. weights,
yay !! 15ft surf rod, daaang !!
I find my 12" surf rod kind of cumbersome to use, I found it fun to cast and enjoy to see the bait fly away lots of yards but to tell the truth, I catch the same fish with my 7ft rod and abu 6500c3 than using the 12" surf rod and satist 20h reel :-\ :-\ only baybass and triggerfish or small corvinas that you can still get them with bass gear, maybe my big rod would shine on the south of Baja, Cabos, La Paz, even Loreto, but here in the northest Cortez sea there is not much life in the shores because of the big extra extreme low and hight tides.
I think that I remember reading somewhere that some of the aftermarket high speed pinions had loose rings. Not positive though.
The issue of the eccentric being rough is a useful hint. That yoke looked a little rough. But... the eccentric system is used to snap the pinion toward the spool with force. When the lever is pulled back for freespool, it it the yoke springs that push and keep the pinion away from the spool, and they are not that strong. I don't know how much pinion clearance this model is supposed to be working with, but a blend of aftermarket parts could have lost you some. If the pinion didn't engage fully, that should only affect winding, unless it caused some burr on the spindle that allowed the pinion to retract mostly, but robbed some clearance.
Since the cast started out OK, the pinion had to be disengaged enough to clear the spindle junction. Something caught in the middle of the cast. My bet would be a pinion ring that was coming off on one side, and/or weak yoke springs that did not leave a safe clearance
All the fixes that you did would help with pinion retraction, but I would also make sure that the ring is not too loose, and that the yokes springs are not getting tired.
I lurve a mystery...
-J
Quote from: Gfish on September 24, 2020, 12:18:32 AM
Alvey again, after servicing it. It casted 1.5 oz. further than the TN4 casted 4 oz. IMO, this is a surf caster "extraordinaire".
Well, that's sort of earth shattering. What will 2020 bring next?
You have the reel at the bottom, yeah? How do you put that rig in a sand spike or a hole drilled in the rock?
Greg, you're going to be a real hit with the dunkers.
-steve