I have a general question on the mechanics of the drag system. What is the purpose of the hard fiber spacer washer under the main gear? Is this washer there to provide space between the bridge and gear sleeve and made to slip without much friction? If so then would a material made to have less friction upgrade performance? Would using grease on this washer help? Wouldn't using drag washer 6-113 create more friction between the bridge and gear sleeve? What is the benefit of using the thicker 6-113 washer? Is it to take out the play in handle slop? I have added a 6-60 washer between the last metal washer and tension spring washer to reduce handle slop with good results. Lots of questions that I was thinking about. Thanks.
Replace it with a carbon fiber drag washer or Delrin. CF gives you slightly more drag, Delrin gives you slightly smoother drag.
Quote from: captquint99 on December 29, 2018, 01:37:55 PM
I have a general question on the mechanics of the drag system. What is the purpose of the hard fiber spacer washer under the main gear? Is this washer there to provide space between the bridge and gear sleeve and made to slip without much friction?
Yes, it functions as a thrust bearing when you use a Delrin (or other smooth) washer. Some of the older manufacturers actually had a roller bearing in that position, I think it's my Pflueger 1419-3/4 that has one there....
To me, the original fiber washer is there cause you can't have metal moving against metal(gear sleeve rachet & bottom of main gear) and cause of it's rigidity it provides a stable thrust bearing-like function, as Sid said. A carbon fiber drag disc there, will increase your drag capacity slightly, as Lee stated, but to me a fat one there may not be as stable for the main gear under high-pressure drag function. Plus there's a possibility of the gear sleeve rachet tearing into the CF disc.
A solution to this would the aftermarket system(5+1 or 7+1 drag stacks) that employ all CF brake discs, a special gear sleeve(keyed all the way down to the rachet)and a below the gear keyed metal washer that sits on top of the rachet, with a thin CF on topa that.
I like to just replace the fiber washer with a better functioning delrin washer(lower coefficent of friction), but I don't know yet whether grease or oil improves things there. I do know that for me, I find alota salt water corrosion on the underside of Penn main gears now and then.
Delrin under gear washer and marine grease is now standard for me. Delrin is safe in a grease/oil environment ;) You could, of course, try a very thin roller thrust bearing (if you can find one), But it would need more maintenace (and cost more) than a delrin thrust washer. The 'extra drag' that a cf washer should provide is not worth the sacrifice of smoothness that delrin will provide.
I thought all of the drag pressure was confined to inside the main gear, so why would you need a drag washer below the main gear? Talking about the older gear sleeves here that were not keyed all the way to the bottom of the sleeve as the newer ones are.
The use of different materials in that area keeps changing. In the past most always used a carbon drag washer under the main gear instead of the stock fiber washer. I don't remember when that started but it was a long time ago.
It was thought that it would increase the drag pressure. I highly dought it does. It would have to be mechanicaly tested many times in different ways to come up with a result.
After the manufacture quit using the fiber washer they went to a plastic type washer. Then we started using a carbon drag washer. Now we are back to using a plastic (Delrin) washer.
Quote from: basto on December 29, 2018, 08:14:56 PM
I thought all of the drag pressure was confined to inside the main gear, so why would you need a drag washer below the main gear?
Unfortunately this isn't so...which is why the thrust washer is so important. When you tighten the drag star, everything below it is squished against the gear sleeve AR ratchet. This includes not only all the washers inside the gear but the gear itself too. I've had good results with about all the variations if properly maintained. Some are better at certain requirements...so my reels aren't all using any one material. 8)
Yup! The washer under the gear gets lots of pressure.
I like to use a Delrin washer there, the reason I chose a Delrin is that it won't get squished and still be slippery.
I'm a strong believer that the washer for under the gear should work as a bearing and not as an additional drag washer, this will help with the gear operating smother when under load.
A drag washer there would do the opposite and it will also heat up the gear more than the Delrin would during a long battle.
I've also used a roller bearing there, I had to shave the under side of the main gear to make it work.
The results were the same as the Delrin washer, so I thought it wasn't worth the effort and as Tidlerbasher has mentioned, maintenance would be an issue.
All my reels have a Delrin washer and it is the only washer I recommend for now.
Of course this is just my opinion, use what you're comfortable with on your reel.
Sal
Quote from: mo65 on December 29, 2018, 08:32:25 PM
When you tighten the drag star, everything below it is squished against the gear sleeve AR ratchet.
"Squished" I love these technical terms. ::) I agree with you Mo and Sal although I do not stock delrin washers.
Dominick
for delrin I just stamp the size needed for the reel in hand, I don't keep a stash of them. I am now also using a very thin teflon washer under the ratchet (it should make things a little smoother when cranking - time will tell :-\)
Quote from: basto on December 29, 2018, 08:14:56 PM
I thought all of the drag pressure was confined to inside the main gear, so why would you need a drag washer below the main gear? Talking about the older gear sleeves here that were not keyed all the way to the bottom of the sleeve as the newer ones are.
The main gear needs a thrust bearing surface on both sides to ride on so that it does not wobble. On a typical star drag reel, the clamping force from tightening the star pushes the drag stack against the main gear, which in turn is pushed against whatever is underneath the gear, providing both thrust bearing surfaces, keeping the main gear aligned with the pinion, and keeping all the drag surfaces aligned. A viable floating drag stack would require a much more complicated design. The reel repair experts here can probably tell us exactly how the load gets transferred to the main gear for a given reel model.
Lots of past discussions on this site on the various tradeoffs for materials, but I think it boils down to:
1. Carbon fiber: provides the most additional drag. Can get damaged under high drag settings, damage varies by reel model
2. Delrin/acetal: Smoother drag, better bearing surface. Downside is potential for creep/deformation over time when stored with the drag tightened. Melting temp is on the low side (it starts to get pretty squishy around 250F), but I don't remember seeing a real life failure report here.
3. Rulon/fiber reinforced PTFE: Smoothest bearing surface of all. Very little additional drag. Same possible issues as Delrin regarding creep, but the operating temp is much higher
4. Mechanical thrust bearing (rollers or balls): Very smooth, but another un-shielded bearing introduces corrosion risk. Usually difficult to impossible to add as an aftermarket replacement for a solid washer.
5. Stock phenolic resin : Nothing wrong with these. Usually very durable in terms of holding shape under load, and sufficient for heat resistance. The folks that customize reels to support higher/smoother drag settings find that phenolic washers can be stickier than Delrin/Rulon.
6. Stock Nylon: can work in lightweight situations. Creeps at fairly low clamping loads. absorbs water and swells. ( Derlin absorbs a tiny amount and Rulon is pretty much impervious). Low melting point. no real benefit for aftermarket over Delrin or Rulon.
There you go. That is a good run down on the various appointments for under gear. Thanks for that. Dominick
Ive never seen a problem with Delrin material. No deformation or creep. The reels I do are used with very tight drags on charter boats. They get abused daily. When they come back many have problems but the drag system is cleaned and reused. 4 seasons now on one set of Carbontex drag washers and Delrin washers. Approximately 400 reels.
A great and very informative thread!
Any idea what a current production 4-155 (as an example only, anything similar as well) is made out of?
Rob
That's the stock Penn washer, a 4-155. I believe that's the stock phenolic resin, #5 that Jurelometer listed.
Quote from: handi2 on December 29, 2018, 10:49:03 PM
Ive never seen a problem with Delrin material. No deformation or creep. The reels I do are used with very tight drags on charter boats. They get abused daily. When they come back many have problems but the drag system is cleaned and reused. 4 seasons now on one set of Carbontex drag washers and Delrin washers. Approximately 400 reels.
Good info Keith!
This is what I like about this site. Real life hard data from the experts.
I was wondering if fiber reinforced delrin (same melting point, but less creep) would be a better choice over pure delrin/acetal, but it is starting to sound like it is not necessary. I would still be a bit nervous about using delrin/acetal on top of the drag stack if I was anticipating some long runs. More of the heat goes out of the top of the stack, and there are stories of folks getting skin burns from a hot star. But to overheat the under-gear washer, the main gear has to heat up. and that takes a much longer run. With three or four hundred yards of line, the heat-up period is going to be just a few minutes at most. Either you break off, or the fish stops, and the drag starts to cool. Excluding drag washers, the performance limitations of the favored materials may not be much of a real-world issue.
Quote from: Gfish on December 30, 2018, 01:36:27 AM
That's the stock Penn washer, a 4-155. I believe that's the stock phenolic resin, #5 that Jurelometer listed.
I think so too. But I have to confess to using the term imprecisely.
A lot of the plastics that we are used to can be melted and reformed multiple times (nylon, delrin, polyethylene, ABS,...). These are thermoforming plastics.
There are other plastics that only give you one shot, and once they heat and cool, cannot be reset. These are called thermoset plastics and includes, epoxy, urethanes, polyester, and phenol (AKA Bakelite- the stuff old Penn side plates were made out of). Thermoset plastics tend to be more creep resistant than thermoforming plastics. When we talk about "fiber washers" or "phenolic washers" we are referring to a washer made from some sort of cloth impregnated with a thermoset resin. Phenol based compounds are resistant to oil, grease, etc, and are often more heat resistant than other choices, and have been readily available for decades. It seems to me to be the most likely candidate.
If there is somebody out there with training in material science, feel feel to confirm or correct me.
-J
I have been using Mylar (DuPont polyester) washers, mainly because I can pick them up in a variety of sizes at the local hardware store (City Mill, Greg). Mylar is good up to about 300F, but I doubt that I could approach anything near that with the type of fishing I do. Mylar density is about the same as Delrin. The washers appear to be thermoset, cross laminated and about 20 mil. If you try to ream out the hole or grind down the edge you find it is very hard and burns instead of melting. The thin size can be used to advantage by stacking the number needed to get the right height.
-steve
Steve, Mylar is good but if I remember correctly it was very expensive.
The slippery Delrin ( brown) is more slippery and stronger that the black Delrin we've been using, but rated a little lower on temperature.
It is the same material Carl Newell used on his speed bearing, it was recommended to me by Reel Speed.
When I checked it out, I wasn't crazy about the way it would punch, I actually ruined many and I have a very good punching set.
The brown is also too costly.
As I was testing the Delrin, I also tried a bearing:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9746.msg90472#msg90472
It did good, but maintenance would have been a pain. Of course as you could see on the topic above, I had to grind the bottom of the main gear and wasn't sure if that would cause problems in the future.
As mentioned above, I have been using Delrin for about 6 year now and have no issues to report.
I do have a few reels that come back for service and the Delrin always looks good.
The Tank is set up with a Delrin as well, when it came back that washer looked good.
A carbon fiber wadsher doesn't make sense to me.
Alan has been offering a different system, a gear sleeve with the flat sides running all the way to the bottom, his include a metal washer and a carbon fiber washe. That does make sense if you are looking for more drag.
Dave ( Jurelometer) is one of the smartest member I know, but I will respectively disagree :). Once you add a few pounds with the star, the main gear isn't going to wobble.
Sal
Hey Sal,
Not that smart. Give me a post or two, and I'll prove it. ;D
Actually, I think we are in agreement.
I was trying to point out that star drag reel designs always push star-> drag stack->main gear->under-gear washer to avoid wobble. This was in response to Donnie's question if there was any load on the under-gear washer.
We now have lots of real-world data that shows switching to delrin for the under-gear washer makes the drag smoother, with no durability issues or other complaints of failure. So I would say that your expirement with Delrin has been quite the success. Delrin may be less creep and heat resistant than other choices, but it definitely appears to be up to the job, and it makes a great low maintanence thrust bearing surface.
I am guessing that the brown stuff is Delrin AF. That is delrin with some PTFE added. Compression strength is the same as regular Delrin, but not as hard or as stiff. The big advantage is that the coefficient of friction is much lower for AF with little variance from static to dynamic (less sticky). Max short term operating temp is the same: 212F. And the compression strength to temp chart shows that softening really starts taking off around 250F. It was the temp numbers that made me nervous about delrin in the first place. But I can't argue with success.
I still have a tiny nagging fear in the back of my mind that emptying the reel at a high drag setting would create enough friction for enough time to cause a Delrin under-gear washer to get a bit melty, but I am not worried enough to remove the delrin and replace with rulon in my reels, plus I really like the extra smoothness.
Yo have won me over ~90% on this one :D
-J
Too good information that might get lost, so I stickied it. Dominick
Quote from: jurelometer on December 30, 2018, 08:56:23 PM
Hey Sal,
Not that smart. Give me a post or two, and I'll prove it. ;D
Actually, I think we are in agreement.
I was trying to point out that star drag reel designs always push star-> drag stack->main gear->under-gear washer to avoid wobble. This was in response to Donnie's question if there was any load on the under-gear washer.
We now have lots of real-world data that shows switching to delrin for the under-gear washer makes the drag smoother, with no durability issues or other complaints of failure. So I would say that your expirement with Delrin has been quite the success. Delrin may be less creep and heat resistant than other choices, but it definitely appears to be up to the job, and it makes a great low maintanence thrust bearing surface.
I am guessing that the brown stuff is Delrin AF. That is delrin with some PTFE added. Compression strength is the same as regular Delrin, but not as hard or as stiff. The big advantage is that the coefficient of friction is much lower for AF with little variance from static to dynamic (less sticky). Max short term operating temp is the same: 212F. And the compression strength to temp chart shows that softening really starts taking off around 250F. It was the temp numbers that made me nervous about delrin in the first place. But I can't argue with success.
I still have a tiny nagging fear in the back of my mind that emptying the reel at a high drag setting would create enough friction for enough time to cause a Delrin under-gear washer to get a bit melty, but I am not worried enough to remove the delrin and replace with rulon in my reels, plus I really like the extra smoothness.
Yo have won me over ~90% on this one :D
-J
Oops, I just reread that and you are correct Dave, sorry about that.
Well, now this means I agree with you 100% :)
Sal
Thank you all for your experience. I always feel great when I learn something about reels. I will be installing Delrin washers under the gear on my surfmasters, and jigmasters that I'am servicing this winter. The amount of knowledge on this board is outstanding and you all should be commended.