Hi,
i was wondering how the people here test your spinning reel drag system. The only way i know so far is to just hold the line while the reel rolls down slowly due to it weight. The drag must be tightened before hand to ensure that your reel rolls down slowly of course. Is there a better way to do it?
Get yourself a set of inexpensive spring / drag scales. After a while you'll be able to set by hand any line 30 lb. & below. Not a good idea to plick weights off the floor to test drags every time you go fish. Yes there are rods that wont be effected by it.
Picking weights off the floor loads a rod very differently than the same force at an angle in front of you like when fishing... Jeff
What class reels are you testing? I have 8# drag scales that will work for 25# class reels and you can have one for the shipping cost. It might be cost prohibitive for you though.
And, keep in mind that drag can change somewhat depending on how full the spinning spool is of line.
Frank
Quote from: Keta on February 04, 2018, 07:25:09 PM
What class reels are you testing? I have 8# drag scales that will work for 25# class reels and you can have one for the shipping cost. It might be cost prohibitive for you though.
What do you mean by class reels? Its just a 4000 spinning reel
Quote from: happyhooker on February 05, 2018, 03:45:37 AM
And, keep in mind that drag can change somewhat depending on how full the spinning spool is of line.
Frank
why is that so?
Quote from: Reel Beaker on February 05, 2018, 10:46:38 AM
Quote from: happyhooker on February 05, 2018, 03:45:37 AM
And, keep in mind that drag can change somewhat depending on how full the spinning spool is of line.
Frank
why is that so?
Frank, it's about the physics of the situation. As the line is removed from the spool the lever arm gets smaller. With the force on the line the same, and constant, the drag increases by a factor of 2 for every time 1/2 the line is removed from the spool. So remove 1/2 the line and the drag doubles, but from 1/2 to 1/4 spool it doubles again, so by the time you're down from a full spool to 1/4-spool your drag has quadrupled....
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on February 05, 2018, 12:47:34 PM
Quote from: Reel Beaker on February 05, 2018, 10:46:38 AM
Quote from: happyhooker on February 05, 2018, 03:45:37 AM
And, keep in mind that drag can change somewhat depending on how full the spinning spool is of line.
Frank
why is that so?
Frank, it's about the physics of the situation. As the line is removed from the spool the lever arm gets smaller. With the force on the line the same, and constant, the drag increases by a factor of 2 for every time 1/2 the line is removed from the spool. So remove 1/2 the line and the drag doubles, but from 1/2 to 1/4 spool it doubles again, so by the time you're down from a full spool to 1/4-spool your drag has quadrupled....
Sid
whats a lever arm?
Quote from: Reel Beaker on February 05, 2018, 01:19:37 PM
whats a lever arm?
Think of it as a gear set, as the line goes out the width on the spool gets smaller increasing the drag.
Quote from: Reel Beaker on February 05, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
What do you mean by class reels? Its just a 4000 spinning reel
The drag range you are fishing. The 8# scales are good for up to 25# line if you do 1/3 of the line breaking strength 30# is you go with 1/4 of the breaking strength.
Quote from: sdlehr on February 05, 2018, 12:47:34 PM
Quote from: Reel Beaker on February 05, 2018, 10:46:38 AM
Quote from: happyhooker on February 05, 2018, 03:45:37 AM
And, keep in mind that drag can change somewhat depending on how full the spinning spool is of line.
Frank
why is that so?
Frank, it's about the physics of the situation. As the line is removed from the spool the lever arm gets smaller. With the force on the line the same, and constant, the drag increases by a factor of 2 for every time 1/2 the line is removed from the spool. So remove 1/2 the line and the drag doubles, but from 1/2 to 1/4 spool it doubles again, so by the time you're down from a full spool to 1/4-spool your drag has quadrupled....
Sid
Think of it like a socket wrench. When you're trying to remove a nut, the farther out on the wrench's handle that you pull, the lower pressure you have to exert to get the nut moving. Same thing with a spool of line. The farther from the center of the spool that the line pulls, the easier it is to overcome the friction of the drag setting. That distance from the center of the nut to your hand on the wrench, or the distance from the center of the spool to the point where the line leaves the reel is called the lever arm. So as line is paid out, the lever arm gets smaller, and the line has to pull harder to overcome the fixed resistance of the drag.
Quote from: scrinch on February 05, 2018, 04:42:52 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on February 05, 2018, 12:47:34 PM
Quote from: Reel Beaker on February 05, 2018, 10:46:38 AM
Quote from: happyhooker on February 05, 2018, 03:45:37 AM
And, keep in mind that drag can change somewhat depending on how full the spinning spool is of line.
Frank
why is that so?
Frank, it's about the physics of the situation. As the line is removed from the spool the lever arm gets smaller. With the force on the line the same, and constant, the drag increases by a factor of 2 for every time 1/2 the line is removed from the spool. So remove 1/2 the line and the drag doubles, but from 1/2 to 1/4 spool it doubles again, so by the time you're down from a full spool to 1/4-spool your drag has quadrupled....
Sid
Think of it like a socket wrench. When you're trying to remove a nut, the farther out on the wrench's handle that you pull, the lower pressure you have to exert to get the nut moving. Same thing with a spool of line. The farther from the center of the spool that the line pulls, the easier it is to overcome the friction of the drag setting. That distance from the center of the nut to your hand on the wrench, or the distance from the center of the spool to the point where the line leaves the reel is called the lever arm. So as line is paid out, the lever arm gets smaller, and the line has to pull harder to overcome the fixed resistance of the drag.
where does the line leave the reel for spinning reels? Is it the line roller? If so, the lever arm is fixed since the distance from the centre of the spool to the line roller is fixed.
[/quote]
where does the line leave the reel for spinning reels? Is it the line roller? If so, the lever arm is fixed since the distance from the centre of the spool to the line roller is fixed.
[/quote]
Think of it like tire/wheels on your car. It take a lot less energy to turn a 17" tire once it's moving than it does a 12" tire. All the line roller does, as long as it's lubed and working correctly, is guide the line onto the spool.
Quote from: Reel Beaker on February 04, 2018, 12:34:52 PM
Hi,
i was wondering how the people here test your spinning reel drag system. The only way i know so far is to just hold the line while the reel rolls down slowly due to it weight. The drag must be tightened before hand to ensure that your reel rolls down slowly of course. Is there a better way to do it?
Are you looking to test max drag?
for my 10, 20, 30 and even 40s I just use my hand and make sure the drag is smooth and not jerky. if I feel I am going cut my finger, then it is about 4 lbs.
for bigger drag settings, I tied my line to a known weight and lift it using tied to some heavy braid,
Please be careful pulling spring loaded stuff, make sure you use rope grade line to test drag, you don't want a break off and things be flying.
some simpler explanations:
1) consider the circumference of a spool -- not the lip, but the "cylinder of line left on the spool": let's say it's 30cm filled & goes down to 20cm after a long cast & some drift... so, when you set the hook on a far-out fish, it has to work against 3 revolutions of the spool under drag to take 60cm of line... when you bring it in close, it only has to work against 2 revolutions of the spool under drag to take 60cm of line, even though your drag setting has not changed (for the lever analogy above, the line leaves the spool at the circumference & the radius is the length of the "lever" -- line rollers & rotor arms have nothing to do with it)
2) if your 4000 is a Shimano, it lists line capacities for 8/10/12 lb. mono on the spool -- that's your line class: call it 10lb or 8-12lb... 40 yrs. ago, Shimano actually called 4000-size "8-12A" (2000-size was "4-8A"); Daiwa calls 10lb-class 3500; Penn calls it 3000; Okuma calls it 30
Reel beaker. If you had enough room you could test it. On say a football field(100 yds). Attach your line to the goal post, set the drag and then walk toward the other goal post. You should feel that there's more force needed to peel line off the spool as you get closer the the opposite goal post, if you leave the drag at the same setting.
The exact phyisics of it is hard see in my minds eye, but what guy's 'er talkin 'bout is real interesting. BTW, I use a pole-holder staked in the ground, set my drag to where I think it should be, then attach a digital wt. scale to the line and when I pull on it, I can see the reading.
Then I sometimes goa step further and mark my star, drag lever, or knob, matched up with a mark on the reel( not the spool on a spinner) at the measured 5 lb. drag point, for reference. White-out works good as a marker.
"whats a lever arm?"
For our discussion here regarding drag it's like bigger & smaller gears & the change in effort needed diiferent size gears bring in turning the reels handle to bring in a fish.
As line goes off the reel the spool gets smaller requiring more effort to pull line from spool. You lose the machanical leverage / advantage brought on by a bigger full spool.
I'ts easier to turn a stuck bolt with a long handle or pipe on the wrench. You have more mechanical leverage . A bigger full spool of line gives more leverage on the drag vs the same spool thats 1/2 full.
You only need to be concerned about this with fish that take a 1/4 to 1/2 of your reels capacity as long as your drag is set to a 1/3 of your lines rating... Jeff
I just pull on the line by hand for a spinning reel. Just like everyone else. I see no reason to see how much drag a spinning reel will produce.
On larger offshore reels if I cant turn the spool by hand anymore that's enough for me ;D
"The lever arm" is the point where the line leaves the spool. For example - if a spool (with line) is 1" in diameter - with say 10lb of drag set.
Now pull off enough line to reduce the diameter of the spool with line to 1/2" - you have doubled the amount of drag (20lb) force required to pull off the line. I.E. the "effective" drag has doubled. It's got nothing to do with the line roller on a spinning reel.
A simile would be:
A 1ft lever operating a given mechanism - now shorten the lever to 6" - you will need double the effort to do the same job.
I set my drag fro 25% of the weakest link. If I run 100# line with a 40# leader, drag is set at 10 pounds. If 100# with a 100# leader, max drag is set at 25#. I'm a big fan of set it and don't touch it during a fight unless a lever drag. I put the rod in a holder that places it at about a 30 to 45 degree angle. Hook up my scale and take a very short walk. The first walk heats things up, and by the second or third few step walk, I feel good that is where it will be while fighting a fish, and set it there.
Presetting a drag on a spinning reel, or star drag, is fine - but remember to back it off after a rinse and before putting it away ;)
Good point Chris, what Chris is saying, screw you drag on before washing your spool & line, this keeps the water out of your drag, then let your reel & spool drain of water, by having your reel pointing sleightly down whyle drying, after that, release the drag pressure, if you leave the drag pressure on it will weaken the springs & pressure washers in your drag, reset your drag before you start fishing again. cheers Don.
Quote from: Donnyboat on February 06, 2018, 04:19:51 PM
Good point Chris, what Chris is saying, screw you drag on before washing your spool & line, this keeps the water out of your drag, then let your reel & spool drain of water, by having your reel pointing sleightly down whyle drying, after that, release the drag pressure, if you leave the drag pressure on it will weaken the springs & pressure washers in your drag, reset your drag before you start fishing again. cheers Don.
Wash = tighten drag befre rinse?
Store = loosen drag before storing?
Could we instead loosen > rinse > tighten to squeeze water out > loosen to store?
The perceived wisdom is to keep water out of the drag first.
Grease
I always thought the whole "loosen drag before storing" was very important to avoid crushing & permanently compressing felt, leather, cork, etc. Is it less of an issue w/ CF?
Quote from: philaroman on February 06, 2018, 05:43:31 PM
I always thought the whole "loosen drag before storing" was very important to avoid crushing & permanently compressing felt, leather, cork, etc. Is it less of an issue w/ CF?
Correct, also on lever drags you dont want to leave the belleville washer / spring washers or bearings compressed while stored. after fishing in the salt drag is tightened to help keep salt out of the drag stack. Which can cause delamination of the carbon washers.
All this drag testing discussion is quite interesting. I don't fish salt water so setting the drag is a little easier in my world. I use 3 strengths of mono line, 6#, 8# & 12# test. I always have a heavier fluoro or mono leader because I'm usually fishing for toothy critters, so I set my drag for my line test. I've got a DA degree in physics. For any of you out here that don't know what a DA is, it's Dumb ####, but hey, it has always worked for me and I never get broken off. I've been bit off by a pike or musky attacking the weight but I never get broken off.
I don't need scales and all that stuff. I really could care less what poundage my drag is set at. Like Phil, I loosen my drag every time I won't be going out again within a week. When the outfit has been stored for awhile, right before I head out, I attach the hook, or line, to a fairly stiff branch on a tree. I then walk out around 60 to 75 yards of line. I've never needed more than probably 50 yards so 60 or 75 is plenty. Then tighten the drag down part way and start stretching the mono to get rid of any memory that has accumulated. I keep tightening the brake with the pole lined out straight until I think the line is going to break. After I get all the stretching done I tight line reel up to about 25 feet from the branch. Then I loosen the drag a little and start walking backwards with the pole bent at the angle I generally use in the boat with a fish on. When I get out about 40 yards I set the drag to just below where I think it is going to break. I'd rather have a little less drag in the beginning than to press things after some line has been taken out. The whole process takes around 5 minutes. I only fish with rear fulcrum drag reels so adjustment with a fish on, if needed, is very easy. The other nice thing about rear drags is that the drag parts are inside the body & not affected by line water.
The whole drag set thing is really just to tire a fish out without breaking your line and this process accomplishes that for me.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on February 07, 2018, 01:57:13 AM
The whole drag set thing is really just to tire a fish out without breaking your line and this process accomplishes that for me.
Right, most people can get by as you describe in your post. With that said I've seldom been amazed at how close some one can set their drag appropriatly with out using a scale. But more so how far off they are. The reason it works most of the time is because most of the time our gear including line is not tested with a fish capable of doing so. When line or drag setting does get tested it's then we often hear about the one that got away.
I fish 50 & 60 at a "starting" drag of approximately of 10 - 15 lbs. Been doing it for years & dont need scales to set drag close. But I also have my spinning reels & star drags marked for easy repeatable settings for 15 & 20 lbs. of drag. I also have them marked for amount of drag based on amount of line on spool & present drag setting. I'm after a record sized fish. I dont want much of it left to guesstaments or chance... Jeff
I never thought about presetting drag and marking it till I started reading here and dreaming about those cow tunas,
Most of my fly/drift fishing for salmon/steelhead is done with light gear so max drag is seldom sought.
I do put my drag to the lowest possible when I troll just enough so the line does not slip for bass/pike/walleye.
Good input guys, I will mark the drag on my spinners and trolling reels for muskie this year
I have been fishing for almost 60 years and set the drags on my "lite" gear by hand and when I was deckhand on charter boats I checked the settings the same way. I am pretty accurate up to 50# class gear but when targeting larger fish and/or using lever drag reels it is nice to know your drag is properly set and what the reel does between strike and full. I also use my scales when finishing a reel repair/service for reels over 30#.
At one time I had 25 NIB 50# and 20 15# scales, I still have and use 3 of the 50# and 2 of the 15# for setting drags. I still have a large box of the 8# and 10 175# scales I can not sell....anyone fish 400#-500# of drag an need a 175# "drag scale".
Another point that goes along with drag is getting to know the rod your using. A rod & nice weight reel that can fish 3 line classes well, for me is a fantastic thing. Of course this is not always something that should or could be done. When you get to know a rod well & how it reacts to your pulling at what ever level of drag that feed back allows me to keep my attention on the fish & not continually glancing back at the reel.
For my situation at times when needing to push the envolope this can be important when applying that last little bit of pressure with rod & drag to lead a decent, still fired up fish in out & around obstacles both below & above the surface... Jeff
After doing it for many years I could set the drag gradually up to 20lbs just by feel and I bet I get pretty darn close to it every time.
The boys at the west side have a different way of setting drag, they set 15-20lbs on strike and yank the hook right out of the fish mouth.
I've seen a bunch of pulled hooks on yellowtail on one of their trips. Maybe next time they should take one of our custom star drag reel , make adjustments as required with the fish that is actually on the end of the line and gently bring him home ;D.
Just a thought...
Sal
On the West coast we actually have rocky underwater structure to deal with. Something Yellowtails et. al., dart towards when first hooked. Never fished on the Atlantic side, so I can't say what it's like. What I like about the Pacific is the steep rocky/volcanic shorelines, places where people can't develop. Hawaii is great, even beaches are public domain, though there are places where access from roadways is limited, but never completely blocked.
Gfish
Quote from: Gfish on February 07, 2018, 08:24:02 PM
What I like about the Pacific is the steep rocky/volcanic shorelines, places where people can't develop. Hawaii is great, even beaches are public domain, though there are places where access from roadways is limited, but never completely blocked.
Gfish
What you describe sounds very cool. It pricks my interest to a level of wanting to fish there. Off to googleville I go to learn more... Jeff
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 07, 2018, 08:07:30 PM
After doing it for many years I could set the drag gradually up to 20lbs just by feel and I bet I get pretty darn close to it every time.
The boys at the west side have a different way of setting drag, they set 15-20lbs on strike and yank the hook right out of the fish mouth.
I've seen a bunch of pulled hooks on yellowtail on one of their trips. Maybe next time they should take one of our custom star drag reel , make adjustments as required with the fish that is actually on the end of the line and gently bring him home ;D.
Just a thought...
Sal
Ha! That's kind of why I set my drags the way I do. I never use a rod holder, I do my trolling with rod in hand so I can feel the bite & set the hook accordingly. For me the most fun is feeling the hit & setting the hook, not necessarily reeling the fish in, although that's fun, too. ;)