Hello, Ive been sitting in the background for some time learning a lot from this site. With the wealth of information from this site, Im now starting to rebuild all my reels. So far I have completed some Accurate BV's, a 16 Catalina 3500 and a Saragosa 6000. I also just finished a Catalina 12 4500 which had a stripped out housing screw that I managed to get out by drilling the head off. My only issue after getting it all back together is the play in the main shaft, which seems to me to be a bit too much. I measured the play at 1.12 mm of up and down play. Do you guys know if this is normal? If not what could be the cause? I have gone over the schematic several times and everything seems to be installed correctly. Any feedback you guys can give would be highly appreciated.
Tight lines,
Brian
some play there is normal...
if you have none, you're way past-due for service
you get least when reel is full of sludge & buildup, but still functional
then, you clean it & get most play -- sometimes, enough to get different line-lay horizontally vs. vertically
just to be safe, take a look at the oscillation block, disk, and all surrounding/involved little parts
make sure nothing is missing & all screws are tight (weakest Loctite might be good)
look extra close at the peg on the disk & groove/channel it rides in the block
I'd expect intentional play of about 1mm, rather than wear or damage
I suppose you could slip a piece of thin brass tubing over the peg, to correct for wear
(never tried & doubt your reel needs that, yet)
If you accidentally left out the tiny part referred to in the schematic as: "18 6H621301 COLLAR", it would cause up/down play. Its function is to create what Shimano would call a "floating shaft" effect.
I'm assuming you didn't mean in/out play, that would be different. Good luck with the trouble-shooting.
Quote from: philaroman on September 04, 2021, 02:35:38 PM
some play there is normal...
if you have none, you're way past-due for service
you get least when reel is full of sludge & buildup, but still functional
then, you clean it & get most play -- sometimes, enough to get different line-lay horizontally vs. vertically
just to be safe, take a look at the oscillation block, disk, and all surrounding/involved little parts
make sure nothing is missing & all screws are tight (weakest Loctite might be good)
look extra close at the peg on the disk & groove/channel it rides in the block
I'd expect intentional play of about 1mm, rather than wear or damage
I suppose you could slip a piece of thin brass tubing over the peg, to correct for wear
(never tried & doubt your reel needs that, yet)
Good feedback, thanks. I never thought about the sludge and build up effecting the play, makes sense. I inspected the peg and grove and can not see any wear. Im feeling that the up and down play is normal.
Quote from: nelz on September 04, 2021, 03:45:39 PM
If you accidentally left out the tiny part referred to in the schematic as: "18 6H621301 COLLAR", it would cause up/down play. Its function is to create what Shimano would call a "floating shaft" effect.
I'm assuming you didn't mean in/out play, that would be different. Good luck with the trouble-shooting.
Im using the schematic for a Catalina 12 5000 because I could not find one for the 4500. My understanding is that they should be the same except for spool size. The schematic list 6H621301 COLLAR as part #201 but doesnt show it on the drawing. I had assumed it was part of the handle assembly. I did however make sure that I installed correctly the 6H501601 Collar and 6H504901 Collar. Is this what you mean by floating shaft? Thanks for your feedback.
I looked at 4000 & 5000: https://daiwafishing.com.au/pages/saltwater-spinning-reel-schematics
looks like both have ONE collar that goes ONTO the pinion where it seats in the housing
"floating shaft" design usually has collars that go INTO the pinion,
so the shaft makes contact w/ pinion at two points -- not entire bore... don't think Catalina has that
interesting that there's one part# for both, main shaft & oscillation block
is that simply because they're sold as a unit, or are they permanently joined?
Quote from: Pinefisher on September 04, 2021, 09:54:01 PMIm using the schematic for a Catalina 12 5000 because I could not find one for the 4500. My understanding is that they should be the same except for spool size. The schematic list 6H621301 COLLAR as part #201 but doesnt show it on the drawing. I had assumed it was part of the handle assembly. I did however make sure that I installed correctly the 6H501601 Collar and 6H504901 Collar. Is this what you mean by floating shaft? Thanks for your feedback.
Actually I used the schem for the 4000, I couldn't find the 4500 either. Take a look at that schem, it shows the part. It has nothing to do with the handle assembly.
Indeed, in other reels including some Daiwas, this collar slides into the ball bearing, right up front after the rotor nut, actually sitting in front of the pinion. The main shaft slides on it, instead of contacting the entire pinion bore surface. Looking at the schem, it looks that way here too, but I've never actually seen this reel. Leaving it out would cause up/down play as you described in such reels, and it can easily be misplaced.
Quote from: philaroman on September 05, 2021, 12:47:30 AM
I looked at 4000 & 5000: https://daiwafishing.com.au/pages/saltwater-spinning-reel-schematics
looks like both have ONE collar that goes ONTO the pinion where it seats in the housing
"floating shaft" design usually has collars that go INTO the pinion,
so the shaft makes contact w/ pinion at two points -- not entire bore... don't think Catalina has that
interesting that there's one part# for both, main shaft & oscillation block
is that simply because they're sold as a unit, or are they permanently joined?
Great feedback guys. My reel has a collar that goes onto the pinion gear and seats in the housing(I think). I took a photo during the tear down to make sure I didnt put the collar upside down.
(this is my first post trying to attach a photo so hopefully it works)
Quote from: nelz on September 05, 2021, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Pinefisher on September 04, 2021, 09:54:01 PMIm using the schematic for a Catalina 12 5000 because I could not find one for the 4500. My understanding is that they should be the same except for spool size. The schematic list 6H621301 COLLAR as part #201 but doesnt show it on the drawing. I had assumed it was part of the handle assembly. I did however make sure that I installed correctly the 6H501601 Collar and 6H504901 Collar. Is this what you mean by floating shaft? Thanks for your feedback.
Actually I used the schem for the 4000, I couldn't find the 4500 either. Take a look at that schem, it shows the part. It has nothing to do with the handle assembly.
Indeed, in other reels including some Daiwas, this collar slides into the ball bearing, right up front after the rotor nut, actually sitting in front of the pinion. The main shaft slides on it, instead of contacting the entire pinion bore surface. Looking at the schem, it looks that way here too, but I've never actually seen this reel. Leaving it out would cause up/down play as you described in such reels, and it can easily be misplaced.
Again, great feedback guys. On my reel the collar in this photo goes into the rotor nut and bearing just as you described. I dont have a photo but thats how I put it back together. This is great feedback and helps give me the confidence that I did put it back together in the right order.
Thanks guys.
interesting that there's one part# for both, main shaft & oscillation block
is that simply because they're sold as a unit, or are they permanently joined?
[/quote]
I believe its because they are sold as a unit. I did not not seperate them but it has screws holding them together.
ah, got it... floating shaft, indeed
at a quick glance, thought rotor cover was bottom of spool assembly
plus, I'm used to Shimanylon collar in top of pinion
like the Daiwa all-metal setup housed in top of the rotor nut much better, but they went too far
a bearing for free rotation PLUS collar for free oscillation ??? why not an Oilite bushing for both?
oh, wait... then, the total bearing count would be lower -- can't have THAT ::)
wait... what am I missing ???
this isn't a rear-drag or a baitrunner -- the shaft never rotates!!! :o
why is there a ball-bearing in a place where there's no rotation ???
BUMP! still want someone to explain a ball-bearing in a place where there's no functional rotation of any kind ???
not pickin' on Daiwa... pretty sure my fancy JDM Shimano rear-drag has a BB support in the spool that never rotates
Quote from: Pinefisher on September 05, 2021, 03:14:27 AM
interesting that there's one part# for both, main shaft & oscillation block
is that simply because they're sold as a unit, or are they permanently joined?
I believe its because they are sold as a unit. I did not not seperate them but it has screws holding them together.
[/quote]
It's two parts held together with one screw.
Quote from: philaroman on September 06, 2021, 03:17:43 PM
BUMP! still want someone to explain a ball-bearing in a place where there's no functional rotation of any kind ???
not pickin' on Daiwa... pretty sure my fancy JDM Shimano rear-drag has a BB support in the spool that never rotates
Are you referring to the bottom pinion bearing?
Keith
Quote from: philaroman on September 06, 2021, 03:17:43 PMBUMP! still want someone to explain a ball-bearing in a place where there's no functional rotation of any kind ???
not pickin' on Daiwa... pretty sure my fancy JDM Shimano rear-drag has a BB support in the spool that never rotates
The pinion and rotor turn on that bearing instead of a plain bushing as in cheaper reels.
The bearing inside spool is supposed to make the drag smoother when it's spinning under load... ::) That one's a bit of a stretch. ::)
Quote from: philaroman on September 06, 2021, 03:17:43 PM
BUMP! still want someone to explain a ball-bearing in a place where there's no functional rotation of any kind ???
not pickin' on Daiwa... pretty sure my fancy JDM Shimano rear-drag has a BB support in the spool that never rotates
Found it
Quote from: handi2 on September 06, 2021, 05:59:50 PM
Are you referring to the bottom pinion bearing?
Keith
no, the utterly superfluous bearing shown in photo above (part #16 in 5000, #17 in 4000)
sits on top/inside rotor nut -- neither race contacts anything that moves during operation
I understand centering/positioning for floating shaft effect, but there's no rotation &
no need for little balls & extra cavities for SW -- solid brass would be cheaper AND BETTER
Quote from: nelz on September 06, 2021, 06:01:44 PM
The pinion and rotor turn on that bearing instead of a plain bushing as in cheaper reels.
no, pinion and rotor turn on BIG bearings (parts #50,53 in 5000; #53,56 in 4000)
the little one in your photo, seems to do NOTHING except position the collar -- the little balls never roll ;D
it looks like a VERY expensive spacer, that requires an adapter (collar) for up/down movement
Quote from: nelz on September 06, 2021, 06:01:44 PM
The bearing inside spool is supposed to make the drag smoother when it's spinning under load... ::) That one's a bit of a stretch. ::)
that's front-drag, where the shaft is stationary & spool rotates when drag engaged... not really necessary, but not idiotic
in a rear-drag, spool locks onto shaft & shaft rotates when drag engaged -- BB's between spool & shaft ARE idiotic
Quote from: handi2 on September 06, 2021, 05:59:50 PM
Quote from: philaroman on September 06, 2021, 03:17:43 PM
BUMP! still want someone to explain a ball-bearing in a place where there's no functional rotation of any kind ???
not pickin' on Daiwa... pretty sure my fancy JDM Shimano rear-drag has a BB support in the spool that never rotates
Are you referring to the bottom pinion bearing?
Keith
I believe he is referring to the bearing in the rotor nut (6G467102). This nut is stationary to the rotor and the spool shaft moves up and down through a collar as the rotor spins around the spool shaft.
Quote from: Pinefisher on September 06, 2021, 09:16:04 PM
Quote from: handi2 on September 06, 2021, 05:59:50 PM
Quote from: philaroman on September 06, 2021, 03:17:43 PM
BUMP! still want someone to explain a ball-bearing in a place where there's no functional rotation of any kind ???
not pickin' on Daiwa... pretty sure my fancy JDM Shimano rear-drag has a BB support in the spool that never rotates
Are you referring to the bottom pinion bearing?
Keith
I believe he is referring to the bearing in the rotor nut (6G467102). This nut is stationary to the rotor and the spool shaft moves up and down through a collar as the rotor spins around the spool shaft.
I see now. Another way to increase the bearing count on a reel. Stella's have this setup too.
Quote from: Pinefisher on September 06, 2021, 09:16:04 PMI believe he is referring to the bearing in the rotor nut (6G467102). This nut is stationary to the rotor and the spool shaft moves up and down through a collar as the rotor spins around the spool shaft.
That's exactly right. Really doubt Daiwa would make such a complex assembly "
just to increase the bearing count". If increasing the bearing count was the goal, they'd just stick a bunch of extra bearings inside the handle knob like those ridiculous off-brand reels you see on ebay.
Ten bearings total inside the knobs: ::)
Quote from: philaroman on September 06, 2021, 03:17:43 PM
BUMP! still want someone to explain a ball-bearing in a place where there's no functional rotation of any kind ???
not pickin' on Daiwa... pretty sure my fancy JDM Shimano rear-drag has a BB support in the spool that never rotates
The rotor rotates around the shaft. This bearing, like a spool bearing, keeps the shaft tight to the rotor nut but free spins rather than using a bushing like most reels. The pinion rotates on the bigger bearing, this one keeps the rotor as it spins from rubbing on the shaft.
In a spool, again the spool rotates around the shaft. The bearings minimize "tipping" of the spool under load and let the drag do its work rather than binding on the shaft. Small refinements for very heavy drag. Unless you are fishing the highest drag on super spinners its not noticeable.