I recently received a Cortez Classic 146 squidder kit - Thanks Tom!! - and then started thinking about how to double dog it while I wait for the internal parts. I know reels this size don't need two dogs for strength but I like to reduce the handle back-play as much as possible. Tom's 9 tooth 98-155 gear sleeve helps a bit but two alternating dogs would be twice as good.
I am not going to modify Tom's plates, so hanging the second dog on the available bridge screw won't work, and there is very little clearance between the gear and the side plate so a 2nd dog on the bridge would need to fit between Tom's 98-155 sleeve ratchet and the outer diameter of the 5-60 gear - a gap about 5.5mm wide.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_41_57.jpeg)
The narrowest dogs that I know of (width at the post) are Cortez squidder dogs at 5.3mm and Pro Challenger jigmaster dogs at 5.5mm. Dogs swiveling on a post won't fit unless maybe the post size can be reduced.
If the dog and post were one piece, swiveling in a hole in the bridge, the dog could be as narrow as the post, or slightly wider to give a shoulder - around 3-4 mm total width. I've got a feeling I've seen this concept before but can't remember where, I'm sure I wouldn't be the first to think of it.
I made a rough prototype out of 6mm 316 stainless, using files and a hacksaw - my axe is broken ;D and tested it in an old 3-66 bridge I have used for a few trials.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_42_36.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_43_36.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_44_20.jpeg)
Cut a groove for a C clip with a bit of scrap the thickness of the bridge as a guide;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_44_57.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_45_40.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_46_25.jpeg)
The faded black marker lines on the bridge are traced around a 5-60 gear. I.ve used a small 349 style dog spring here but have left some material at the back of the dog to play around with shaping it for a coil spring if it fits.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_47_00.jpeg)
The gear in place covering the dog and spring;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_47_52.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_48_34.jpeg)
C clip holding it in place (before the post was trimmed)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_49_18.jpeg)
I bench tested the dog to an equivalent static drag of 20lbs, using a 'torque bar' and logic from jurelometer's thread on calculating gear shaft torque: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.30 (no photo's).
The dog, post and hole performed well at 20lbs - there was no deformation of any of the components.
I had a concern the post would wear the hole in the plate, then forgot about it in my enthusiasm, Chris (Rothmar2) had the same concern when I showed him some photos and suggested a stainless bridge might hold up better. I've seen dogs worn at the ratchet end but I haven't seen the post hole flogged out on a dog - is this because the tips wear first and are replaced before the post hole wears?
I'm wondering what others think, keeping in mind we are talking about a squidder with 10 - 15 lbs drag max.
Mike
I gotta get past what you did with a file first before I process an opinion. That's pretty amazing stuff!
John
Whaaaaat?.?.?.?
By the looks of your photos, your file edges are now worn out, the SS took out the teeth of the file.
I'm speechless. Wow? Very cool design. Just WOW.
Serious hand-tool skills! My hat is off to you Sir!
-Mike
Great innovation Mike!
Shady tree engineering - well done that man :)
The way things are going on this site I now don't stand still. I'm afraid if I stand still long enough someone on the site will try to modify me. :D I'm perfect the way I am so I don't need upgrading. ::) Great work Mike. Dominick
Solid work there Mike.
Very Cool. 8)
this are the kind of things you would never believe without pictures
awesome job, compadre.
Mike, being able to do that type of work, designing the part and shaping it with hand tools is a gift.
Excellent job!
Sal
Quote from: Dominick on January 04, 2017, 05:13:08 PM
The way things are going on this site I now don't stand still. I'm afraid if I stand still long enough someone on the site will try to modify me. :D I'm perfect the way I am so I don't need upgrading. ::) Great work Mike. Dominick
I don't know, you sure you couldn't use another dog?
Well done, Mike --
Good eye, and good hand tool skills.
On our big road trip last year, we spent a day in Colonial Williamsburg.
This reminds me of the skill of the craftspeople in making firearms, tools, silversmithing, hardware, wagon wheels, and every possible useful thing for their community -- all with hand tools, common sense, and skillful experience.
Best,
Fred
Very good mike. You're a patient man!
..........Lou
Great unique work there Mike, thanks for pix. I think the hole through the bridge will be OK as long as the drag setting is kept realistic, I'll say 10lb or less. An occasional bump up to 12-14 shouldn't hurt it too much, provided there is a "heavy" grease in there. Something like a TSI 321 thinned down EP (extreme pressure) grade would do it. Try and polish the dog shaft (1st) and bridge hole as best you can without compromising fit, combined with a good load bearing grease, will also go a long way to reducing the tendency for hole to get flogged out prematurely.
Flat sided files are a great thing! Will look into knocking up some other dog blanks on the lathe, with more precise C-clip grooves for you when you get the bridge to me. I was thinking a thin washer (shim thickness), say 0.4-0.5mm under the 69B-600 clip might give slightly better all-round support to keep the dog better aligned. Could be overthinking with this idea as well?
Man, you sure have steady hands and good eyes... not to mention ingenuity and patience. Excellent work.
-steve
I'll agree with the others, fantastic job. I'll also opine on the concept. The way I see it, any reduction in the number of parts is a good thing. I don't see the hole being exposed to stresses that a post wouldn't already be putting on the plate except for the rotation and brass is usually a decent bearing surface. I think this is the way it always SHOULD have been and that we need to look into doing this more.
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on January 04, 2017, 10:14:15 PM
I'll agree with the others, fantastic job. I'll also opine on the concept. The way I see it, any reduction in the number of parts is a good thing. I don't see the hole being exposed to stresses that a post wouldn't already be putting on the plate except for the rotation and brass is usually a decent bearing surface. I think this is the way it always SHOULD have been and that we need to look into doing this more.
Ron
No Ron, the peened post would be the best option ,
but, this isn't what it's about.
I'm not going to criticise a man that put his heart into this project, I actually look up to him.
Thanks again Mike for sharing youir hard work with us.
Sal
Thanks everyone, I wasn't sure whether to keep going with this or not. The fact that it is for a squidder and not a senator has helped, not to mention Chris's offer to turn a couple of blanks. As Chris pointed out, a more precise post shaft and hole in the bridge should improve the durability. I'll look at a coil spring system in the meantime.
Mike
Quick update- a more conventional spring;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_59_37.jpeg)
Old style craftsmanship!!!!! Big round of Applause for you!!!!
I really enjoy watching you refine this design, it's evolving beautifully. Your innovation and skills with the hand tools are an inspiration that with a little patience, skill and time; almost anything is possible.
Thanks for sharing this process!
-Mike
sensei, marvelous work!
Crikey!!! Thanks Alan.
Mike
I was able to see how the one piece dog & post would fit on the squidder 3-200 bridge today after the internal parts for the squidder turned up during the week.
The first thing I wanted to check was the clearance between the 'back' of the bridge and the spool to make sure there is room for the C clip and post - something I would have checked first if I had a spool and bridge at the time.
I assembled the frame with the spool and bearings and centered the spool;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_03_05.jpeg)
I removed the head plate and put a blob of blu-tack where I thought the dog would go on the bridge;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_04_07.jpeg)
Put a piece of cling wrap over the blu-tack to stop it sticking to the spool and put the plate back in place, making sure the raised ribs inside the spool contacted the blu-tack;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_04_50.jpeg)
I was having trouble measuring the height of the depression left by the spool accurately, so I resorted to International Non-Standard Units - Tom's dogs. The depression was close to 1.25 TD or approximately 2.6mm (1 TD = 2.1mm);
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_05_31.jpeg)
The first prototype was a loose fit and sat approximately 1.6 mm (or 0.75 TD) proud of the 3-66 bridge so there should be enough clearance - more soon.
Mike
This is very impressive...how did I miss this one? Glad you posted again today Mike...well deserved sensei! 8)
Thanks Mo - no one was more surprised than me. :o
Chris (Rothmar2) has got a few projects on the go at the moment so I thought I would make and fit a second prototype to 'prove' the concept before taking up any of his time with turning the posts on dog blanks for this. I used the same process as the first, with the exception I used a tapered needle file to make the c clip groove instead of the hacksaw blade used last time. I also took a bit more time with the post trying to keep a better shape.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_06_23.jpeg)
The tapered file for the c clip groove;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_07_03.jpeg)
To find the post location on the squidder 3-200 bridge, I traced the outer perimeter of the gear, put one of Tom's dogs on a bridge post and rotated the sleeve so the main dog was half way between the ratchet teeth.
Without moving the ratchet, I then selected the tooth for the 2nd dog to engage with and scribed a short tangential line (close to perpendicular to the radius of the ratchet at that location) from the face of the tooth to near the edge of the main gear;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_07_47.jpeg)
The finished dog will be 4 mm or less wide at the post, so the hole center needs to be 2 mm from the edge of the gear - and on the tangent from the rathchet tooth;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_08_39.jpeg)
The dog post is approx 3 mm dia (2.95 - 3.02) so I drilled a 1/8" (3.2mm) for the dog and a 1.5mm hole for the spring post;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_09_31.jpeg)
Shaped the dog - I got a bit carried away here and removed more from the back than I should have, the black line is the approx location of the gear;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_10_43.jpeg)
I was able to salvage it by gently hammering the spur for the spring in closer to the dog (dog on the right);
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_11_23.jpeg)
Install the dog and spring;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_12_03.jpeg)
The dog was not quite completely covered by he gear but after a bit of fine tuning it cleared the sideplate;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_12_45.jpeg)
The back of the assembly is approx 1 mm (~1/2 TD) proud of the bridge;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_13_37.jpeg)
I put the reel together and gave the spool a spin - I was more than a bit surprised, and disappointed when there was a nasty sharp rubbing or contact noise. There should be more than 1mm clearance over the dog post! I moved the spool to the left and the noise decreased but was still there, I pulled the spool out and put a blob of grease on the dog post and it looked to be untouched when I opened it again. I checked the spool a few times and it looked good. I tried another spool and it was fine - but didn't solve the problem with the first spool. After a lot more head scratching, it turned out the clicker ratchet on the first spool is slightly out off center and about three or four of the teeth were rubbing on the clicker pawl. Probably would have found the problem earlier if it I wasn't looking for problems with the new dog post. The clicker was a bit too firm for me anyway, so I gave the pawl a few file strokes being careful not to loose shape or remove too much.
There is no interference now and I'm happier than I was when I first heard the noise ;D ;D
Mike, I could see you enjoy creating things by hand, very nice. It's not about how much work it takes to create those parts, it's about the finished product.
Those should hold up just fine with the numbers that reel puts out.
Excellent work!
Sal
Wow! Thanks for posting.
Mike you are a true artisan, solid work brother....Bill
Very slick work Mike. Can't wait wait to have a crack at this myself. The detail you have put into this post will certainly help myself, and hopefully others. Great post!
Thanks for the kind words guys - and the encouragement to persevere with this concept.
Sal you're spot on (again) - it's more about the challenge of putting an idea into practice rather than a practical or cost/time effective improvement to an already good reel.
Chris - I didn't get a blank shaped to suit the mini lathe capacity on the weekend - there were a few delays with the internal parts I wasn't expecting - not to mention the slightly out of round clicker sprocket! (nothing to do with Tom's kit or the parts I got from Scott's) I'm sure you've got a few things to keep you occupied in the meantime.
Mike
Take 3 - using a refined post and dog blanks made on a lathe. Thanks again Chris.
The prototypes had a 3 mm dia post +/- 0.1 mm and a 1/8" or 3.175 mm hole. The C clips I had on hand were a little loose and I had gently squeezed the clips to close them slightly - Chris thought it would be better to make the post 3.5 mm and a tight fit with the clips. I used a 9/64" or 3.57 mm bit for the hole and it has worked well - free but not loose.
The blank dogs made by Chris - one 3.5 mm and one 3.0 mm post;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_16_03.jpeg)
The shaped dog using the 3.5 mm post blank;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_16_58.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_17_55.jpeg)
And the dog installed on the bridge;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_18_34.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_19_15.jpeg)
I was happy with the prototype but this close tolerance one is working very well, thanks again Chris!
My double dogged Cortez Classic Squidder - Thanks Tom.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_20_07.jpeg)
Mike
Wow. I got nothing.
Best dog I've seen, great job!
Quote from: Alto Mare on April 09, 2017, 02:16:10 PM
Best dog I've seen, great job!
Thanks Sal & I agree - Tom's dogs present very well with the polished finish and fine bevel on all edges! They should be on display, not hidden away in the inner workings of the reels. ;D ;D
I had 2 of my prototypes left after putting the machined post one into the squidder. They worked OK so I decided to put them on a 3-200 bridge for a surfmaster 200 I am narrowing to 100 width. I wanted to make use of them and I'm keen to do away with the flat spring on the main dog in the 200 anyway. The flat springs work fine but I find them awkward to assemble and prefer the dogs on the bridge.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_21_11.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_21_57.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_23_07.jpeg)
Mike
A quick update on putting the 2nd bridge into a surfmaster: It doesn't fit using a Newell spool.
I don't have a Penn 29L-100 spool (yet) to check if it will work with a Penn spool, but ribs on the Newell spool are higher than on the Penn Squidder 29L-146 and rub on the back of the posts.
Here's a photo of a Newell 100 and a Penn squidder spool showing the difference in clearance;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_7_25_01.jpeg)
I had to go back to dogs and posts on top of the bridge to double dog the surfmaster with a Newell spool.
Mike
following up: The bridge with the one piece dog/post does fit in a surfmaster using the Penn 29L-100 spool.
Quote from: mhc on January 04, 2017, 02:25:53 PM
I recently received a Cortez Classic 146 squidder kit - Thanks Tom!! - and then started thinking about how to double dog it while I wait for the internal parts. I know reels this size don't need two dogs for strength but I like to reduce the handle back-play as much as possible. Tom's 9 tooth 98-155 gear sleeve helps a bit but two alternating dogs would be twice as good.
I am not going to modify Tom's plates, so hanging the second dog on the available bridge screw won't work, and there is very little clearance between the gear and the side plate so a 2nd dog on the bridge would need to fit between Tom's 98-155 sleeve ratchet and the outer diameter of the 5-60 gear - a gap about 5.5mm wide.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_41_57.jpeg)
The narrowest dogs that I know of (width at the post) are Cortez squidder dogs at 5.3mm and Pro Challenger jigmaster dogs at 5.5mm. Dogs swiveling on a post won't fit unless maybe the post size can be redu
If the dog and post were one piece, swiveling in a hole in the bridge, the dog could be as narrow as the post, or slightly wider to give a shoulder - around 3-4 mm total width. I've got a feeling I've seen this concept before but can't remember where, I'm sure I wouldn't be the first to think of it.
I made a rough prototype out of 6mm 316 stainless, using files and a hacksaw - my axe is broken ;D and tested it in an old 3-66 bridge I have used for a few trials.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_42_36.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_43_36.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_44_20.jpeg)
Cut a groove for a C clip with a bit of scrap the thickness of the bridge as a guide;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_44_57.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_45_40.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_46_25.jpeg)
The faded black marker lines on the bridge are traced around a 5-60 gear. I.ve used a small 349 style dog spring here but have left some material at the back of the dog to play around with shaping it for a coil spring if it fits.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_47_00.jpeg)
The gear in place covering the dog and spring;
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_47_52.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_48_34.jpeg)
C clip holding it in place (before the post was trimmed)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/7995_07_07_17_6_49_18.jpeg)
I bench tested the dog to an equivalent static drag of 20lbs, using a 'torque bar' and logic from jurelometer's thread on calculating gear shaft torque: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.30 (no photo's).
The dog, post and hole performed well at 20lbs - there was no deformation of any of the components.
I had a concern the post would wear the hole in the plate, then forgot about it in my enthusiasm, Chris (Rothmar2) had the same concern when I showed him some photos and suggested a stainless bridge might hold up better. I've seen dogs worn at the ratchet end but I haven't seen the post hole flogged out on a dog - is this because the tips wear first and are replaced before the post hole wears?
I'm wondering what others think, keeping in mind we are talking about a squidder with 10 - 15 lbs drag max.
Mike
Because of done this Harley parts did you give any consideration to a negative fitment by freezing one and warming up the other part of the dog?
Quote from: kmstorm64 on July 18, 2018, 09:42:38 PM
Because of done this Harley parts did you give any consideration to a negative fitment by freezing one and warming up the other part of the dog?
Hi kmstorm - no I didn't think of negative fitment. It sounds interesting though, I'd like to hear a bit more about the process. Do you use a 1/8" hole for a 1/8" post or should the post be slightly larger? I guess it would depend on the thermal expansion of the metal(s) used.
Mike
MHC / Mike,
Have there been any more developments ?
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
Not yet Dave, I haven't tinkered with reels for a while now - I've been thinking I should do something soon but keep getting side tracked.
Mike
If someone could manufacture something along these lines, it would be a popular Squidder upgrade.
Quote from: Decker on November 03, 2021, 04:02:36 PM
If someone could manufacture something along these lines, it would be a popular Squidder upgrade.
AGREED . . . 100 % ! ! !
Count me in ! ! !