I have had my 3 25N star drags now for over 2 years. During this time I think I can safely say they have seen far more use during this time than most other reels would. For what its worth or for any who care to hear it here are my thoughts quick & simple.
This is a simple reel to work on. It cast better than many reels that cost more. If you have problems throwing a 2-4 oz. weight over a 100 yards with this reel while on a proper 7'- 8' rod something is wrong with the reel or maybe you could use a bit of practice. The 25N I would say is very durable. With one caveat, like most other reels they are durable when used with in their proper spectrum. This is where I get frustrated. A lot of times I'm on my own to find out exactly what is the usable, fishable spectrum of a given reel. Simply because the manufactures claims don't match up to real world, on the water use . One of the issues that makes this sight so great & helpful!
I'm not as kind as some of you when it comes to labeling what the manufactures have to say & claim about the specks on their reels. Some manufactures claimed specs are reached by setting up the reel in a manner that most serious, diehard folks wouldn't make use of. I believe this is dishonest. I'll leave that at that!
The 25N star drag is a fantastic 40-50lb. line class reel. It will work for 60 but not as well as Penn seemed to once claim. The drag on my 3 25N's seem to start losing their smoothness gradually when set some where around 18 lbs. If you have experienced something different regarding this I wish to know.
They are not at their best using 60 lb. line. If you question this....load your 25N up with 60 set the drag proper, tie off to something solid & begin turning the handle you will notice the handle will begin to flex & it will get really bad if you fail to keep the force your applying within the radius the handle turns. Meaning if you push in or pull out on the handle while turning it. Something that can happen easily when cranking the handle hard. In fact you can easily fold the handle over if you do this. If you have the stock handle at its longest setting this will be all the more noticeable.
I folded the handle over on one of mine with a fish on. This why I wont winch fish with them any more.
I understand most will not load this reel with 60 as I have. It is what is. For what ever it may be worth just passing on what I've learned ....Jeff
Jeff,
Living far from the Ocean as you do and fishing primarily freshwater you have not experienced many reels actually designed for cranking against a 25lb load.
That class of reel is closer to a Penn International 80 or 130 to actually move that full load (and only while in low 1.1 gear) and actually hold up without a hiccup. People that fish 25lbs continuously on big fish commonly do that on "50" class big game reels and consider that "light tackle" fishing and still expect that the reel is not something that can be abused forever.
What a reel is able to put out in terms of drag has nothing to do with what the reel can winch in. What we have in your case is a failure of expectations that are disconnected from a reality established decades ago on big Tuna and Marlin.
A reel like the Fathom 25N is a bargain reel intended to fish 10-15lbs of drag on a daily basis and crank in maybe 5 lbs. It is a small reel that here on the West Coast we would consider solid for fishing 30lb, or 40lb leader in a pinch, nothing more, for standard use.
When it comes to drag specs, keep in mind that at the bottom of the spool the 20lb max most find when the reel is full is closer to 30lbs when the reel is nearly empty of line. This is far more than required for this class of reel. Any "max" drag that it puts out is only for stopping rare bigger fish in a short run (ie jacks, snappers and groupers) that can be powerful, but then they tire. Not for slugging it out day after day.
Somewhere around here I wrote a post on how "one reel's 25lbs of drag is not another's..." meaning that the small light reels may provide a lot of drag when locked down, but that is not remotely the same as another reel that is designed to fish that 25lbs day in and day out and weighs twice as much (north of 5lbs). The light reel's 25lbs is the "emergency setting" that will blow the reel up if used often. The other reel's 25lbs is the "fish every day" setting that it will hold up to for decades.
You have what we would consider a budget light tackle reel and are pushing it vastly too hard. Trying to crank against 25lbs of force is simple abuse of a small, light, inexpensive reel and you will come to grief soon. It is not designed for it, remotely, nor do any with experience with this class of reel expect it to be such.
In a nutshell: Freshwater guy buys light Saltwater reel and has unrealistic expectations. Leads him to fish it like a big game reel it is not. Recipe for disappointment.
A true "small big game reel" is an Okuma Makaira 8ii or Penn 12 VSX...there is light years more toughness in these reels in proportion to their double or more cost (and weight) over a Penn Fathom.
Glad you responded here John. Not to put down Riverrats choice of reel (however not for 25# max drag all day long); but Ive often wondered why giant cat fishermen dont use at least a small international class of reel (aka 30 class minimum) with heavy line (braid/mono combo) and put some "long term hurt" on those big cats. Others might think its "over-kill" but Ive heard of some "monster" catfish that I wouldnt hesitate using my modified Avet 4/0 two speed on in a heart-beat. I think you (RR) will find it much more enjoyable fighting these cats with a heavy duty 2 speed reel and use those Fathoms for smaller stuff where they will excel.
Leo
John, greatly appreciate your reply.
To start with I agree with everything you stated in your post. However being where I live along with reading the claims made by Penn I did have reason to believe prior to my purchase of these reels they would perform to my expectations. Penn has backed off a bit from their wording regarding the Fathoms. This is specifically regarding their claims of the Fathoms capability at high drag settings. Which is why I purchased 3 of them. This truck load of frustrating misinformation is sent further down the road by writers in the press who set themselves up as experts or those in the know on big catfish & go about making unsubstantiated claims. Who more than likely have never pulled any catfish with any size form any structure.
I will keep these 25N's. No, they did not meet my expectations. I will continue to load them with 60 lb. line & fish them with the drags set at 15 lbs. going higher only as needed in the moment.
My search for the perfect every day reel for my needs will continue.
I'm glad some of you have found your tackle nirvana in the old school Penn Senators. I get & fully understand the feeling of enjoyment that comes from using such equipment that you have modified & made to perform better. But I fish for the fish & in light of what's out there now days I have a hard time believing a star drag Senator is the best tool for what I do.
John, however what has become common knowledge to you & others becomes a hard, expensive lesson to those like myself.
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 25, 2015, 07:01:39 PM
John, greatly appreciate your reply.
To start with I agree with everything you stated in your post. However being where I live along with reading the claims made by Penn I did have reason to believe prior to my purchase of these reels they would perform to my expectations. Penn has backed off a bit from their wording regarding the Fathoms. This is specifically regarding their claims of the Fathoms capability at high drag settings. Which is why I purchased 3 of them. This truck load of frustrating misinformation is sent further down the road by writers in the press who set themselves up as experts or those in the know on big catfish & go about making unsubstantiated claims. Who more than likely have never pulled any catfish with any size form any structure.
I will keep these 25N's. No, they did not meet my expectations. I will continue to load them with 60 lb. line & fish them with the drags set at 15 lbs. going higher only as needed in the moment.
My search for the perfect every day reel for my needs will continue.
I'm glad some of you have found your tackle nirvana in the old school Penn Senators. I get & fully understand the feeling of enjoyment that comes from using such equipment that you have modified & made to perform better. But I fish for the fish & in light of what's out there now days I have a hard time believing a star drag Senator is the best tool for what I do.
John, however what has become common knowledge to you & others becomes a hard, expensive lesson to those like myself.
Thx for that Jeff.
Yea, we have waded through all of the Hype for years on saltwater stuff...unfortunately fisherman demand hype!
I am not even kidding. Most of the guys buying new reels are the less experienced and on limited budgets. Along comes an economical reel and the first question they have is "How much drag does it make??" and the manufacturers give them what they want...spinning reels that make 40lbs of drag that have pot metal gears..."Its sooo smooth and makes 40lbs of drag...."....and will blow up if you try and turn the handle (if you can) etc for one example.
Dead lift tests of drag mean nothing....put 200lbs of tuna on the end of a reel and see how it handles it...generally pretty amazing how the top end handles it compared to the low end.
People worship Shimanos because they are so pretty and smooth...when new...and use the softest gears in the industry...because smooth sells. Point being that filling expectations *at the point of sale* mean marketing hype and cosmetics and soft butter smooth gears all for a low price...instant gratification and disposable reels.
Real quality takes years to manifest. Stainless internals, beefy frames...things only experience tells you is necessary.
The reel you want Jeff is an Okuma Makaira 8ii. Save your money, sell what you have to....but there is nothing made in the world that is tougher or more capable for the size. There is no cheap solution for your needs.
regards
That's what you want for stump pulling.
Just a side note....I'm not, nor have I wanted 25 lbs. of drag from these reels. Even though Penn states clearly these reels will reach that none of my 3 25N's will. I would not think for minute using 60 lb. test at 25 lbs. of drag a reasonable thing. I don't think I made mention of setting & making use of drag that high with these reels. It has been my judgment while not in every case, but most of the time one can back off the max claimed drag by 5-10 lbs. & durability & performance should be acceptable. That's clearly not the case here.
its just not an easy thing for me to accept claims that are not true. Having to purchase a reel, use it to see if it is capable of what is claimed is ridiculous. Prior to coming here I had no way to make a choice other than it being based on what's said in a printed statement.
I'm far from uneducated or being simple minded don't believe any are making that accusation. Just trying to make the point I had logical, sound reasoning to base my expectations & purchasing of these reels.
I guess I'm also venting a bit.
Greatly appreciate the feed back from you both....Jeff
THANKS, John!
I posted my last post while you were posting yours. Yes the Makiara! It has been has been dancing about in my minds eye for some time.
I will go a bit bigger than the 8. John I'm needing room for at least 50 yards of top shot more would probably be better. I need to be able to cut the line when I get snagged. I would rather cut the Mono than the braid. Breaking off 60 lb. line in a small boat on anchor is not an easy thing. 50 yards is a rare, long cast from boat or bank using live bait. Around 250 yards capacity with a 75 yard topshot of 60 would be ideal....I don't believe the Mak 10 has this capacity?
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 25, 2015, 07:30:04 PM
Just a side note....I'm not, nor have I wanted 25 lbs. of drag from these reels. Even though Penn states clearly these reels will reach that none of my 3 25N's will. I would not think for minute using 60 lb. test at 25 lbs. of drag a reasonable thing. I don't think I made mention of setting & making use of drag that high with these reels. It has been my judgment while not in every case, but most of the time one can back off the max claimed drag by 5-10 lbs. & durability & performance should be acceptable. That's clearly not the case here.
its just not an easy thing for me to accept claims that are not true. Having to purchase a reel, use it to see if it is capable of what is claimed is ridiculous. Prior to coming here I had no way to make a choice other than it being based on what's said in a printed statement.
I'm far from uneducated or being simple minded don't believe any are making that accusation. Just trying to make the point I had logical, sound reasoning to base my expectations & purchasing of these reels.
I guess I'm also venting a bit.
Greatly appreciate the feed back from you both....Jeff
What to say...
The thing is that you will get the exact same from every single company...to the point that Accurate (for one example) doesn't even publish drag specs any more.
They know that they cannot explain the whole picture to a un-knowledgeable buyer...or they will lose him to another maker that tells him what he wants to hear.
You will find that the amount of drag produced by the offerings in this class (3/0 star drag reel) are all virtually the same from Daiwa, Penn, Okuma and Shimano...there is no difference worth worrying about.
If any of them had a sudden convulsion of honesty...it would only hurt sales as the buyers would turn to others.
1. Daiwa Saltist: less drag than stated and super high speed reels that could never remotely crank in a fish that could pull their drag.
2. Penn Fathom: less drag than stated but terrific casters with decent cranking power.
3. Okuma Cedros: less drag than stated. Very good reel for the coin.
4. Shimano Torium: Less drag than stated. Butter soft gears.
So what to do? There is nothing made that casts better or is a better choice than the above for a great star drag reel. You just got to fish them within their limits.
Andros is a light framed lever drag reel. It really does nothing better than a Fathom other than being a lever drag mechanism.
Makaira is the next level. Truly a miniature big game reel. If you have any trouble with other reels strength then the extra cost and weight is justified by this type of reel.
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 25, 2015, 07:48:08 PM
THANKS, John!
I posted my last post while you were posting yours. Yes the Makiara! It has been has been dancing about in my minds eye for some time.
I will go a bit bigger than the 8. John I'm needing room for at least 50 yards of top shot more would probably be better. I need to be able to cut the line when I get snagged. I would rather cut the Mono than the braid. Breaking off 60 lb. line in a small boat on anchor is not an easy thing. 50 yards is a rare, long cast from boat or bank using live bait. Around 250 yards capacity with a 75 yard topshot of 60 would be ideal....I don't believe the Mak 10 has this capacity?
Don't go too big. It will just make casting harder and the reel heavier. I think the 10 is plenty big (but would still go 8ii myself). I know you want a long leader but I would go heavier braid to a short leader. Pretty sure Alan got something like 450yds of 60 braid on an 8ii. That is more than you need.
Good stuff John!
I gave up on Shimano 10 years ago. Durability & parts etc. list goes on........! I do have a couple of TLD's around some where that I let others use when with me.
Is there going to be that big a difference in cast performance between the 8 & 10 Mak? Spool weight is probably the thing.
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 25, 2015, 08:06:37 PM
Is there going to be that big a difference in cast performance between the 8 & 10 Mak? Spool weight is probably the thing.
Not much but noticeable for very light baits. Mostly it is a question of handling and the narrow reel will give you more cranking power due to less "wobble" when cranking under load (the rod twisting back and forth due to the leverage from the handle).
Like many, I prefer as narrow a reel as will suit my needs. Much less fatigue when fighting a fish on heavy drag.
[/quote] Pretty sure Alan got something like 450yds of 60 braid on an 8ii. That is more than you need.[/quote]
If I loaded to 1/2 that I wonder what length of leader I could get with 60 mono? Its to frustrating trying to break that class of line from a small boat when snagged. I get snagged frequently enough that cutting braid all the time would get pricey.
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 25, 2015, 08:34:17 PM
Pretty sure Alan got something like 450yds of 60 braid on an 8ii. That is more than you need.[/quote]
If I loaded to 1/2 that I wonder what length of leader I could get with 60 mono? Its to frustrating trying to break that class of line from a small boat when snagged. I get snagged frequently enough that cutting braid all the time would get pricey.
[/quote]
Well, you could easily calculate it given the dimensions given on the okuma site for the reel.
I want to clarify one point.
Casting:
A narrow reel has a little lighter spool and will then cast *very light* baits better.
However, a wider reel is generally a better distance caster as the spool height doesn't decrease as much during a very long cast. Simply more line is coming off for a given spool rotational speed so you get more distance.
Regardless, I think the reel handling is the dominant characteristic for me, but others may prefer greater distance or capacity.
It will be a bit before I can arm myself with 3 Makiara's . We are only allowed 3 lines in the water at any one time here...... STUPID STUFF..... One prevailing, known to be an absolute fact...... I must get it done prior to remarrying the X......Oh the life that I live, the troubles I bring upon my own head.
For now I'm torn between the Mak 8 & 10. My son can go fishing with me the wife thing can wait.
John
Don`t judge all Shimanos by the Torium. Have a look at the gears on TLD series.
Basto
I used to own a shimano Tyrnos 16 single speed in the past & have ran 20lbs of drag all day.
Its a lever drag & needs thumb assistance when casting
but after a bit of practice its easy. can fit 300-400yrds of 60lb braid easily & run a 10yrd 100-150lb wind on leader.
I have had the drag maxed out at 35lb for testing but not used at that pressure.
food for thought, can be picked up cheap in used condition.
Quote from: basto on May 26, 2015, 01:45:20 AM
John
Don`t judge all Shimanos by the Torium. Have a look at the TLD series.
Basto
Well, the weird thing is I would fish one in a heart beat (I still have 8 Shimanos). But I would never buy a high end Shimano again.
The TLD series has always been excellent....and they have Stainless Internals (or at least did, dunno now).
My real beef with Shimano is not that they make the product they do, but the limited support they offer for it (5 years of parts after the reel is discontinued).
It is ridiculous to think you can spend $500-1000+ for a reel and have no parts after 5 years....This is fine for reels like the Torium that you would be lucky to get 5 years out of to begin with and are $2-300....but unacceptable for a Trinidad A or a Stella SW. Their highest end reels are the most disposable of all.....and that isn't right, particularly when they are using soft gear material so the reel feels great when new but wears quickly. You WILL need new gears for a Stella or Trinidad...but after 5 years its gonna be like hunting for parts on ebay...
Fine for light tackle kicks and grins...not fine for a reel you have $1200 invested.
This one could tame those Kittens:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=10800.msg103647#msg103647
Sal
Never mind, your question was on a star drag....sorry about that.
Quote from: basto on May 26, 2015, 01:45:20 AM
John
Don`t judge all Shimanos by the Torium. Have a look at the gears on TLD series.
Basto
Basto, that reel looks awesome on the inside.
Sal
No Sal your fine. I could really care less if a reel is a star drag or lever drag. The most important thing to me is that it work with in the spectrum I'm fishing at the time doing this with a glass smooth drag. Who knows I might end up using 3 old yesteryear, dilapidated Senators ;D. In all seriousness I do think I'm leaning a bit toward a lever drag a Makiara to be specific. Just seems to be made for what I'm trying to accomplish on a day to day basis.
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 26, 2015, 04:01:46 AM
Quote from: basto on May 26, 2015, 01:45:20 AM
John
Don`t judge all Shimanos by the Torium. Have a look at the gears on TLD series.
Basto
Basto, that reel looks awesome on the inside.
Sal
Have to agree Sal.
Some really great points being brought up...good read.
Good luck on your quest for the perfect reel!
Also...that guy from River Monsters has caught some insane freshwater/brackish fish. I can imagine a International 12/16 VSX could come in handy...or an older Int. 12 or 20.
Thanks Dan.
I know I stated else where something to the effect of "Perfect Reel". To rephrase that, I want reels that last & are dependable for my use. There are 2 that stand out.
Back to the original topic ;D.....
https://plus.google.com/112286080002171871262/posts/ZFAtEnGXDbV
awesome free spool time Jeff,
by the time the cast would land (2min) the fish were gone
I have learned a tremendous amount in the short time that has past since I started this thread. The biggest of which is what John was alluding to & that is understanding how things are & accepting it.
I spoke to John about getting rid of my 3 Penn Fathoms for somthing better...... Fact is these star drag 25N's are very good, light weight, durable reels for fishing 40 lb. line. I will be keeping them...Jeff
:) Neat, how many fish have you wrestled with on them since you last posted in June?
I was looking pretty hard at the 25N Fathom but got a deal on a 25N Squall I couldn't pass up ($85 BNIB)...I'm only using the reel about 6-8 times a year on party boats bottom fishing... first change is Alans 3/0 handle that arrived today. ;D
Please continue to update here on your use and modified expectations of the reel.
John made some points a few months back that are 'the market' in a nut shell, sort of makes you hate hearing the truth, haha.
A great thread for sure.
The 25N Fathom is a nice reel, but as John has mentioned a while back, you need to be realistic on iits capability.
Mine was gifted to me by a friend here, I've played with it a few times and really like it.
I also replaced the gears with the upgraded ss gears, not sure it needed those, but decided to do it anyway.
One thing I noticed form servicing it first time, the threads on the plate screws were too fine to me, one screw hole was actually stripped and that didn't surprise me.
I'm sure Penn has their reason for using those screws, but I went ahead and retapped them to 5-40...if I remember correctly.
Sal
Found the screws that I replaced, I figured if one failed the rest were going to follow, so I replaced all of them.
The one on the right is the replacement screw
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20161217_234222.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20161217_234222.jpg.html)
I didn't mind the look
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20161217_234248.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20161217_234248.jpg.html)
This could be the only reel with the issue of a stripped screw hole, I haven't heard anything about others and that's a good thing.
Sal
Quote from: coastal_dan on December 17, 2016, 05:11:27 AM
:) Neat, how many fish have you wrestled with on them since you last posted in June? .....
I have lost track of how many fish I've caught on these reels. Some time back I wore out the gears in one of the 3 & replaced them with ones from Penn. That reel had a lot of time on it. I really like the gears from Alan / Black Pearl. I have found these reels with very little work can produce a very fishable 15 lbs. of drag. A few I've seen did so out of the box. If there is anything in their size & weight that cast as well I'm unaware of it. For the money you are getting more reel with superior capability with 25N lever drag. However these star drags are keepers & suit my use fine....Jeff
WOW ! Just reread this. Just amazes me how my thinking has changed in such a short time. Certainly have learned a lot coming here... Jeff