Hello, I just recieved four ugly stiks via ups. I have a question about the custom bigwater model USB 1170 MH. It comes with foul proof guides. The guide closest to reel seat is oriented 180 degrees differently than the rest of the guides - so that it presents the "flat face" of the guide towards the reel. Hope that makes sense. Is that correct or a factory snafu? By the way two tiger stick spinning rods arrived with absolutely crushed guides nearest the reel seat - broken ceramic inserts - so I have to send rods back regardless. Why don't manufacturers take more care when shipping?
The first guide (stripper guide) is often reversed on many rods. I have heard several theories but I think that if you are using a wide reel you don't want the line to hit the legs of the guide before the ring.
By reversing it, you can avoid that problem. Maybe someone with more expertise in rod building can chime in.
Thanks for the reply and knowledge Conchydong. I appreciate it.
Coils of line coming off a spinning reel can loop around the stripper guide during casting and snag here, causing your line to snap and sending your favorite $$$$ lure hurtling off into the blue never to be seen again. This often happens in windy conditions.
Reversing the stripper guide on casting rods alleviates this problem to a large degree. By facing the flat guide face towards the reel there is less likelihood that the line will catch on the stripper guide.
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Quote from: Wilmar on December 04, 2016, 12:18:31 AM
By the way two tiger stick spinning rods arrived with absolutely crushed guides nearest the reel seat - broken ceramic inserts - so I have to send rods back regardless. Why don't manufacturers take more care when shipping?
e-mail a photo of the busted guides (also, packing materials - if there's visible external damage) to the vendor -- you may be able to keep the rods, PLUS get a big enough refund for custom-wrapped BETTER guides
Thanks for the idea about sending a picture to the vendor, maybe keeping the rods and getting money for replacement guides. Smart idea, I will give it a try. Also exp2000 thanks for that explanation. I continue to learn.
It is supposed to be like that, have a look on Youtube, Fuji has excellent videos illustrating the system and how it works. They have made massive advances in the design of guides to improve casting with braid lines and spinning reels. There are different types for different applications, the purpose though is to choke the coils in the line as quickly as possible to avoid wind knots and get the line through the guides with as little resistance as possible and avoiding the line slapping the blank
Quote from: conchydong on December 04, 2016, 12:33:26 AM
The first guide (stripper guide) is often reversed on many rods. I have heard several theories but I think that if you are using a wide reel you don't want the line to hit the legs of the guide before the ring.
By reversing it, you can avoid that problem. Maybe someone with more expertise in rod building can chime in.
Hi Folks,
Grab a cup of coffee, or whatever you relax with - this might be a bit long.
On conventional (multiplier) rods, there is absolutely no reason to reverse any of the guide, even the stripper guide, as even with a very wide reel, the first ring can just be slightly adjusted that the line will never touch the side legs of the guide, just by pushing it up the rod an inch or so. There are no conventions in guide spacing for multipliers that ever require that situation where a guide is reveresed. Even Fuji and subsequently other manufacturers have 'cupped' the design of the metal frames of rimgs, so that they are purposely designed to be used in the normal fashion, with the cupping of the frame preventing the ceramic inserts from popping out due to leader knots hitting the insert at speed.
However, with spinning (fixed spool) rods, the whole game changes. Historically the convensional wisdom was to use large diameter rings to cope with the coils of line coming off the reel, and to gradually reduce the guide sizes to get these coils under control. and hopefully finally exit the tip ring in a straight line. There were problems with this, especially in longer designs of rods, like surf casters where because of conditions, there were lots of instances of coils of line wrapping around the first big eye, locking up and then snapping the line. Back in the 1970's & 80's in the UK the solution on some surf rod designs was to reverse the first ring, with the hope that the now forward facing twin legs of the guide would assist in shedding the overtaking coils back to the rear of the guide. This was further enhanced by some rod builders to bend the frame on the guid eslightly forward, between 5-10 degrees But this 'Cone of Flight' design scheme for spinning rods remained the most accepted concept for guide placement.
But, what they had all ignored was that in the 1960's the then president of Fuji had done a lot of research on guide systems for long spinning rods, and developed what was known as the Omura Theory, which stated and proved that the actual 'height' of the guide ring, not the size was a controlling factor, even if that guide ring was substantially smaller - the coils problems would be removed.
Then in the 1990's with the advent of braid in surf fishing spinning situations the whole story got worse, and coil wraps from overtaking line wrapping round the frame became a serious issue, more because of the the much limper status of braid over nylon. First rings were being ripped off rods, and all sorts of horror stories were legion.
Fuji then invested a lot of time, effort and money, and found that in their own archives they had the solution, which just had to be modernised with up to date materials. Tall guides with small rings, and frames that prevents line from snagging or getting a purchase to start forming a knot situation - and in 1999, they introduced the Low Riders series for long surf rod situations, and within this scheme, the first guide was traditionally reversed deliberately. This scheme is supreme at overcoming all the problems of spinning rod designs being used with braid, especially in the long rod format of surf fishing, and is still exceptionally valid today.
However, as this goes against convensional wisdom of the 'fact' that you much have big guides for spinners, it was generally not embraced or accepted, and it was not very applicable to smaller/short rod designs. Fuji's subsequent desing scheme is the 'K' series, which has a much modified frame sustem, with no catch points in the design for line to anchor prior to wrapping, as well as a forwrd tilted design to hinder looops of coils from overtaking the ring during the cast. Because this system does use big eye sizes for the first guide, it is very acceptable to the wisdom of the rod buyin market, and is subsequently a success in various formats and developments.
Now, the low end of the market want a single rod model that will cater for both spinner use and conventional reels, and their half hearted solution is to reverse the first guide on the series of rods, and heap sales literature that extolls the virtues of their design. However, like most things that are porported to be 'dual pourpose' they rarely work well in either situation - a compromise.
I write this as a rod builder that is always looking at optimum performance, and hope this gives an insight to why there are literally thousands of different rings in the Fuji catalogue, each designed deliberately for a purpose.
Hope that helps.
Will be off line for a couple of days - competing against South Africa in a surf competition.
Cheers from sunny Africa.
Jeri
Thanks for that Jeri.
I really like the K series guides. As you say, they are excellent at eliminating wind knots. They work so well that Fuji had to patent these to stop other manufacturers copying them.
But they are a whole lot more expensive than regular guides and prohibitively so in larger sizes so we only see these on more expensive high end rods.
I have never seen them on a production beach rod. For the vast majority of the consumer market the reversed stripper guide is used simply because of market economics.
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Thank you for that history and insight Jeri. I'm a fan of the K series too exp, especially KWAG.
-steve
Hi All,
Back from 3 days of seriously intensive fishing against the South Africans - I'm so glad we aren't fishing today - my body probably couldn't take it - getting old is a pain in the 'A'!!!!
A big factor that came out of some of the two countries best surf anglers, was that those with 'K' seires guides on the production surf rods were actually lossing distance to those with Low Riders. The biggest issue is that while 'K' series work for shorter spinning rods, they don't do well when used on much longer rods.
This comes from a facet that we have found over the years, some short rod concepts work well, but don't translate up to longer rods, while longer rod guide placement concepts can work well when shortened down. So, in the world of folks trying to find one solution scheme for all rod situations, it doesn't work; they won't find a one fix solution.
The biggest hinderance to commercially produced surf rods is the public perception towards Low Rider style guides, they just can't believe that it will work as well as they percieved notion that long rods for spinners need big eyes. Over the past 3 days I have been testinga new blank in the competion, and it only had 5 guides, and the smallest was just a size 8 - everyone that looked seriously at the rod passed comment that it wouldn't work - it worked faultlessly, and to great effect, even with me as a 'old timer' casting alongside some of the seriosu youngesters. Public perceptions are often a huge problem for tackle manufacturers - they tend to 'go with the flow', rather than bring something new to the market place, and educate the general public.
This morning already, we have had 3 rods in from the competition to have 'K' series removed and fewer Low Riders built onto the rods.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
Quote from: Jeri on December 09, 2016, 08:34:00 AM
Hi All,
Back from 3 days of seriously intensive fishing against the South Africans - I'm so glad we aren't fishing today - my body probably couldn't take it - getting old is a pain in the 'A'!!!!
A big factor that came out of some of the two countries best surf anglers, was that those with 'K' seires guides on the production surf rods were actually lossing distance to those with Low Riders. The biggest issue is that while 'K' series work for shorter spinning rods, they don't do well when used on much longer rods.
This comes from a facet that we have found over the years, some short rod concepts work well, but don't translate up to longer rods, while longer rod guide placement concepts can work well when shortened down. So, in the world of folks trying to find one solution scheme for all rod situations, it doesn't work; they won't find a one fix solution.
The biggest hinderance to commercially produced surf rods is the public perception towards Low Rider style guides, they just can't believe that it will work as well as they percieved notion that long rods for spinners need big eyes. Over the past 3 days I have been testinga new blank in the competion, and it only had 5 guides, and the smallest was just a size 8 - everyone that looked seriously at the rod passed comment that it wouldn't work - it worked faultlessly, and to great effect, even with me as a 'old timer' casting alongside some of the seriosu youngesters. Public perceptions are often a huge problem for tackle manufacturers - they tend to 'go with the flow', rather than bring something new to the market place, and educate the general public.
This morning already, we have had 3 rods in from the competition to have 'K' series removed and fewer Low Riders built onto the rods.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
What do you mean by low riders?
BSVOG perhaps?
~
Greetings from rainy Santa barbara, Don't want to hijack this thread but is there a section on here about distance casting? Any chance you could start one Jeri? I would love to know what set-ups you use. I find this fascinating, Thanks Sheridan
Hi 'exp2000',
Low Rider guides were developed in the late 1990's bu Fuji, and patented, to overcome all the problems and issues associated with surf fishing with long rods, braid and spinning reels. Search 'LCSG' for the Sic version of these rings, they are also available in slightly less expensive and performing ceramic inserts.
We use the SiC variants on our custom rods for best care of the braid we are using and for the lowest friction value - we looked at the cost saving options - but you wouldn't put 'retreads' ona new Ferrari???
Hi Sheridan,
Send your rain to southern Africa, there has been a drought here for the last 2 years - it would be much appreciated.
I am not the one to contact about options on new sections to this forum, think you might have to get in contact with 'Mr. A' - it's his playground we are all playing in.
Our surf side in southern Africa is pretty radically different from what you do in the 'states', it might challenge your perceptions a little. Average rods here on the coast are 14' long - 1 piece rods, though we are working through a development stage to use rods up to and slightly longer than 15'. The next challenge to your perceptions, is that we use the reels right down at the bottom, just 8" up from the butt button, makes for ease when fishing and fisghting big fish.
Picture below is my wife fightng a small local shark - about 35lbs during a practice session prior to her participation in the 'B' team International against South Africa in October.
(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah205/JeriDr/15kg%20Spotty%20-%20B-M_zpsp3v1n7wt.jpg)
The essense of our surf rod use, is to be used with a boat fishing style rod bucket, it caters for all the loads from the bottom of the rod, and allows ease of use of the reel and rod.
The low reel position also aids distance casting achievements, because during the down swing of the butt of the rod during the last phase of the cast - gravity is assisting with the weight of the reel, rather than the angler having to push both rod and reel with the right hand - makes for more power, as during surf casting the left hand makes most of the power.
Hope that helps.
Cheers from sunny Africa, as the sun goes down.
Cheers
Jeri
Quote from: Jeri on December 09, 2016, 04:53:53 PM
Hi Sheridan,
I am not the one to contact about options on new sections to this forum, think you might have to get in contact with 'Mr. A' - it's his playground we are all playing in.
hello Jeri,
i think it would be enough if you open or keep constant on a new thread not a new subforum, about surf fishing, when all the fans of this style could make a question and you answer since you seems to be the guru on that area.
Im an avid fan of surf fishing too and really like when I find threads and comments about this modality.
my current gear for surf fishing is:
heavy equipment : Rainshadow 1505 12.6ft rod / abu 6500c3 or saltist 20h or sealine-X 40SHV
medium/light : fenwick HMX salmon rod 9ft 1-2oz / abu 5500c or lexa 300
Tsunami airwave spinning 9ft / van staal vs275 (little heavy but doable)
Light surf : Balzer 25 magesty rod 10ft 5 -25gr / sonora 4000
here where I live we dont have the big fishes from surf fishing like in the south of Baja (roosters, big dogtooth snapper, Jack crevalles) but we have small species that can keep you busy with the medium and light gear.
Quote from: Jeri on December 09, 2016, 04:53:53 PM
Hi 'exp2000',
Low Rider guides were developed in the late 1990's bu Fuji, and patented, to overcome all the problems and issues associated with surf fishing with long rods, braid and spinning reels. Search 'LCSG' for the Sic version of these rings, they are also available in slightly less expensive and performing ceramic inserts.
We use the SiC variants on our custom rods for best care of the braid we are using and for the lowest friction value - we looked at the cost saving options - but you wouldn't put 'retreads' ona new Ferrari???
Cheers
Jeri
Thanyou again Jeri.
I have spent the last few days trying to scrounge information on these but there seems to be precious little.
Surprisingly, the best info I found was published here, right in my own back yard so to speak:
Fuji's guide to solving wind knots:
http://www.westernangler.com.au/articles/tackle-and-tactics/360-fujis-guide-to-solving-wind-knots (http://www.westernangler.com.au/articles/tackle-and-tactics/360-fujis-guide-to-solving-wind-knots)
I guess I have never seen these before because they are not all that common to start with compounded by the fact that I live in Baitcaster Land ;) but I will be sure to check them out next time I get to Perth.
I am surprised to hear that K series guides can still suffer from the odd tangle.
Investigating this almost makes me want to take up custom rod building again
..... almost!
Thanks again for the great info.
Brett
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Hi Brett,
An interesting article, it refers to a video from Fuji -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUrUWofrmM8
which does show a lot of the issues and how the Low Rider rings solve tyhe problem, especially on long rods.
However, personally I have a theory, that in the English speaking world, we all grew up with big first eyes on spinning style rods, and these were the 'accepted' norm, and nothing else would suffice. So, when Low Riders came along, they really challenged people's perceptions, and common comments were to the effect that 'how could such a small ring effect better cast?' Stick with a big first eye, and live with the occassional problem. On the flip side of the coin, Continental Europeans and other not English specking surf anglers have embraced Low Riders and found them to work with amazing effect. - Is there a language issue, or just old fashioned bias and resistance to accept change???
Personally on long surf rods, casting braid off a spinning type reel, I have been using rods built with these guides for over 5 years, and never - never had a wind knot or wrap knot situation - in absolutely all conditions except pouring rain - which we don't get here.
However, we did challenge and adapt some of the original 'Fuji Spacing Recipes' to the point where we are now fitting some rods with the first guide over 2.0 metres (79") away from the reel, where Fuji recommend 1.20 metres (47"). And all we have found is that distance potential of the rod blank just increases.
A particular point here is that we do use more fast to extremely fast tapered blanks than the normal through action tapered surf blanks favoured in other places in the world, so the blank design will have a impact on design spacing of the guides, and subsequent performance. Additionally, we use rod blanks with quite quick recovery, due to the very high carbon content, and strength combinations in the design - this might also be having influence on our design success with these guides.
The issue I have with 'K' series is that they were designed for shorter rods, and to encompass this 'big ring' concept that folks felt they need on a rod. We have done literally dozens of conversions to surf rods from 'K' series to Low Riders, we have a box full of second hand 'K' guides, some with very damaged first guides, where line wraps have occured with considerable force and even bent the frame.
Even in the shorter rod situation with lighter lines, rods of 10' or 12' we have had great success with using combinations of smaller Low Riders and the single leg Trout rod guides, to the point where they are out performing identical blanks with either traditional high guides or 'K' series.
As to your being a cured addict from custom rod building - just build another one, and you'll be addicted again.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Foul-proof guides . . .
Tight Lines !