As every Floridian knows, bucktails are the secret to landing big snook. And as every Floridian knows, they're overpriced.
So last night I wrapped my first one, and it was super easy, and I can make them exactly the way I want them. At least in theory. so I'm gonna start doing more. Does anyone have a source for non-crap 1oz jig heads that dont cost a fortune? I know how to use the search function on eBay just fine. I'm looking for recommendations for ones that are of an acceptable quality for the money.
never fished for snook, but what kind of hooks do they take? I pour my own for stripers- have made thousands.
FYI- if you find a head you like, buy it in raw color. theyre cheaper, and paint as you want. Powder paint is also very easy durable, just need a way to heat jig. toatser oven or heat gun is great.
Do they have snook in NC? They've got huge mouths, I tend to use a 2/0 -4/0 but thats not based on any observed limitation. I've caught one on an 8/0 circle rigged for shark with ladyfish cut bait.
Redfish like the bucktails too. And being able to cast them a mile certainly doesn't hurt.
I have never like poured jig heads. When the fish shakes it's head the momentum of the lead head swinging around can pry the hook loose. Better to start from scratch and make a flexable connection between head and hook.
What kind of dubbing do you use?
How far are you into it ......... I have the tools that you can borrow for a while if you need . I have buckets and buckets that you can pick from .
i have to look for the molds if you want to cast some lead .
I'm pouring 1/2 oz to 3 oz on 4/0 to 7/0 hooks. For all practical purposes most any tackle you might use on reds is good on stripers. We catch them together in the sound and surf. For clarity, the reverse isnt true- not all striper tackle is good drum stuff- speaking on the trolling side.
Yeah bucktail jigs are so pricey. The NJ local fluke rigs come with bucktail tied directly on the hook with monofilament line. I want to learn how to do that.
Quote from: oc1 on November 19, 2021, 08:42:30 PM
I have never like poured jig heads. When the fish shakes it's head the momentum of the lead head swinging around can pry the hook loose. Better to start from scratch and make a flexable connection between head and hook.
What kind of dubbing do you use?
I messed around a bit with free swinging hook designs on jig heads. What I found was that if the hair tail or plastic is attached to a free swinging hook, you tend to have less snap in the action, as the tail will tend to swing more as one piece, instead of the tension in the materials working like a spring fixed at the base. I think that the fixed base action is more close to the whiplike propulsion of natural prey.
And if the hook is not too large for the target species, I get a lot of corner and jaw hook sets with a fixed hook, which makes for a nicer release. OTOH, a big fixed hook pointing up will brain hook a small fish, so the mortality on fish intended to be released can be high.
I am sure that there are cases where free swinging jig hook is a better choice, but it is not universal.
Quote from: Decker on November 19, 2021, 10:53:29 PM
Yeah bucktail jigs are so pricey. The NJ local fluke rigs come with bucktail tied directly on the hook with monofilament line. I want to learn how to do that.
You just use a nail knot for the mono. IMHO, mono is not the greatest choice, but it is a bit faster process, because you usually don't need to cover it with coating. Hollow hair like bucktail will flare out as you tighten it, but mono has to be really tight to hold, so it is hard to control the flair. And it is difficult to get a permanent grip on the material with mono, so you end up needing to do a bit of coating anyways. I prefer to use thread, and coat with something hard to add durability. Danville flat waxed nylon is king for the very small stuff. Thick nylon thread for the big stuff. If you have size D rod wrapping thread handy, you are all set for one oz jigs. When using thread, you just wind around and tie off with 4 or more half hitches, or a whip finish if you want to impress the fly tiers.
Nail polish works fine for a thread coating. Switch to epoxy, UV resins, or a thick urethane if you need to protect the thread more from chewy fish.
Lots of interesting choices for hair as well. Nothing wrong with bucktail, except that it is not super durable.
It seems like there is no shortage of rabbit holes when it comes to making fishing tackle.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on November 20, 2021, 12:41:35 AM
It seems like there is no shortage of rabbit holes when it comes to making fishing tackle.
-J
Seems that Jason has a touch to find all the rabbit holes on fishing hobby, moding reels, building rods, building bucktails and a lot more waiting ;D ;D
I'm going to hesitantly post a pic of my first bucktail, with the excuse that its the first one I've wrapped and looks like it. Had mica powder in the epoxy from a lure I'm salvaging, but that may become a different thread. My second one looks better.
Ive wrapped a few now and I'm doing it in about 4 minutes this way. I could crank these out. I'm just epoxying the wraps on like rod guides. I'm using pro wrap color thread and coats all purpose white. I'll probably go get cheap color threads, after all I'm making these to throw them away.
Quote from: steelfish on November 20, 2021, 01:50:39 AM
Seems that Jason has a touch to find all the rabbit holes on fishing hobby, moding reels, building rods, building bucktails and a lot more waiting ;D ;D
It feels like a natural progression. The desire to have nice things without paying nice thing prices inspires us to learn how to make our own nice things. Also now I can play with colors.
Do you have snook over by you? I've heard you do, by the name of robalo. They. Are. The. Best.
Looks good Jason.
The general rule of thumb is to keep the jig tail length under 2.5x the length from the eye of the hook to the bend. This will mostly prevent the tail from wrapping around the bend and fouling on the cast. The exact length will vary depending on how far back you tie, and how stiff the material is. My guess would be that yours is on the long side, as the material and flash look a bit long and limp. Less can be more on the amount of material used.
There are some tricks for getting away with a longer tail, but I don't like to use them unless I have to.
I am curious if they get snook as far north as Alex inside the Sea of Cortez. We have caught a few juveniles in bait cast nets, and I saw one jumbo hanging off the beach in the central area. Never caught one in the sea of Cortez myself. There are a few small populations, but not big numbers. And like zero catch and release. More, but not a lot of snook on the Pacific coast side, as far north as Bahia Magdalena. They even get the odd permit every now and then.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on November 20, 2021, 12:41:35 AM
What I found was that if the hair tail or plastic is attached to a free swinging hook, you tend to have less snap in the action, as the tail will tend to swing more as one piece, instead of the tension in the materials working like a spring fixed at the base. I think that the fixed base action is more close to the whiplike propulsion of natural prey.
I don't attach the dubbing to the hook. The hook swings free insie the dubbing. The dubbing is attached to the head.
I wonder if that length rule is more for flies of the unweighted variety. I see people on piers and catwalks throwing 2oz bucktails with 12" of tail (and landing fish!), so casting may be affected less in the case of heavier jig heads because of the better weight distribution. And really it seems the fish have a preference for these longer tails, so maybe exploiting that preference is worth the risk of casting complications. And I've been throwing these guys for years with tails not only a bit shorter than what I'm making. It's just the norm around here.
Its also possible that these lure makers know your longer tail tricks and that's why it goes smoothly. Come to think of it the store bought varieties are definitely a stiffer tail material. I guess I'll have to go out and try them now. All in the name of science.
Owner makes production jig heads in raw lead and they're priced reasonably but not cheaply. Obviously they use high quality Owner hooks. Tackledirect carries some.
But if you're wrapping your own you're already on the road to a lead pot and jig molds. My concern about sourcing jig heads from ebay for customization would be the quality of the hooks used, and you can control that by pouring your own.
Note the "italian special" 2nd from right. And I think 2nd pic is technically a fly not a bucktail, but I'm not up on terminology yet. That might get a bass. We'll see.
First some fly tying terminology:
Dubbing: short strands of material , usually held in the middle by two strands of twisted thread. This is wound around the hook. Dubbing is used to add a fur like effect.
Wing: the bulk of the materials that make up the profile of the fly. This evolved from the little feather wings on insect imitations, and later longer stiff feathers used to make the early streamers, but now is also sort of a catchall for the material that makes up the main profile.
Tail: A seperate component that extends the farthest back, but is not the wing.
In fly tying terminology, Jason's jig in the photo has a white wing and red tail and no dubbing. Some folks do use some flashy dubbing over the wraps, but Jason is using plain thread wraps.
Usually jig tyers just call the wing a tail, and no longer have a name for the tail :)
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on November 20, 2021, 02:53:32 PM
I wonder if that length rule is more for flies of the unweighted variety. I see people on piers and catwalks throwing 2oz bucktails with 12" of tail (and landing fish!), so casting may be affected less in the case of heavier jig heads because of the better weight distribution. And really it seems the fish have a preference for these longer tails, so maybe exploiting that preference is worth the risk of casting complications. And I've been throwing these guys for years with tails not only a bit shorter than what I'm making. It's just the norm around here.
Its also possible that these lure makers know your longer tail tricks and that's why it goes smoothly. Come to think of it the store bought varieties are definitely a stiffer tail material. I guess I'll have to go out and try them now. All in the name of science.
If they are not fouling, then you don't have a problem. The tricks involve things like putting something in the hair at and just past the bend that will stiffen a bit , pushing the hinging point away from the bend. You would be able to see it easily.
I tied hair jigs for stripers for awhile, and had problems with fouling with feathers and softer materials, but I was hucking for distance in the surf with a strong cross breeze.
There are lots of choices for material. Folks always think that softer is always better because it will undulate more. But the soft stuff just moves with the current like any other piece of detritus down there, and does not move much water, making less likely to be picked up by the fishes lateral line as solid food.
I have only worked flies for snook, and the popular flies tend to be thin small bait/shrimp imitations (clousers) when the fly is supposed to move a lot, or something very flimsy with marabou or similar if the fly only drifts or gets bumped along slowly. Usually, very limp stuff has no action at speed.
I have done more fly fishing for a species called barramundi, which looks like a bigger fatter snook, and occupies the same niche, but usually in less clear water. Flies for barramundi tend to be darker plus bulkier in order to push water and be picked up by the lateral line.
If you are looking for synthetics that are relatively stiff, but not crazy stiff, synthetic wig hair is dirt cheap. It gets repackaged in tiny unspecified quantities and sold to the fly tiers for $5 a pop. Look for
kanenkon [edit]
kanekalon. It comes in straight to kinky-wavy is usually best -look for the stuff marketed as jumbo braid. Mixing a very tiny bit of thin sparkle is not a bad idea. Look for Krystal flash or angel hair.
Real bucktails are not too costly, but tails with some longer/soft hair demand a premium, and are tricky to order over the internet. You sort of need to go to a fly ship and sort through the inventory. Yak tail is my #1 favorite natural long stiff hair material, but it is hard to get for a decent price unless you buy a large quantity. OTOH, you can probably get a couple dozen jigs out of one fly tier pack of yak hair.
The name of the very stiff stuff escapes me for now. If you are interested, I can look it up.
-J
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on November 20, 2021, 05:15:26 AM
Quote from: steelfish on November 20, 2021, 01:50:39 AM
Seems that Jason has a touch to find all the rabbit holes on fishing hobby, moding reels, building rods, building bucktails and a lot more waiting ;D ;D
It feels like a natural progression. The desire to have nice things without paying nice thing prices inspires us to learn how to make our own nice things. Also now I can play with colors.
Do you have snook over by you? I've heard you do, by the name of robalo. They. Are. The. Best.
completely agree on what you just said, same reason Im modding reels, building rods and for some time I was also with the idea of making my own bucktails, ;D ;D I bought few jig bobbins, fly tying Vise, thread and nail polish, then tied some but no avails, nothing, tried again with the same jighead with a plastic tail and BOOM ! always the same, so, I dropped the idea of the bucktails, sold all my feathers, Real bucktails, syntetic hair, etc just kept the fly vise and jig bobbins.
no Robalos around this area and the rest of north sea of cortez, Snook seems to appear more at the south of the peninsula at the very end of sea of cortez, my friends of Puerto Vallarta catch Snook left and right at the Beaches of the Pacific ocean and FW Rivers.
Steve's Rock Hopper. Tungsten flipping weight and 1/0 Gamakatsu live bait hook. Poor photos. Some have double hooks.
Ok that fly was getting hits. Couldn't throw it further than about 15yds on my best cast, but action was near shore. I wasn't setting the hook, and that's not normally a problem. Can I do this with a circle hook?
Nice looking critter Steve. Hard to see everything that is going on. Assume that you tie the line/leader to that loop. And does the hook ride point up so that it does not get dulled/snagged on all the rocks?
Jason: Circle hooks usually have a pretty short shank, making them a bit hard to tie flies on and still have them to their corner hooking thing. They made longer shank circle fly hooks, but most are not manufactured any more.
You also need a target species that is going to keep swimming or at least do a nice turn when using artificials with a circle hook. If it is just the swim up and vacuum in bite, you get a lot of ejections without hookups.
When tying a weightless jig (AKA a fly), some materials will be more buoyant than others. Bare hooks will ride point down, usually jig hooks too. Jig hooks can make nice fly hooks, but you normally have to use a tiny bit of lead wire or eyes (bead chain will work) on what you want to be the bottom, and/or buoyant fiber like deer hair on the top to keep the fly riding point up. Bare jig hooks tend to bend open more often as well.
A tiny weighted eye will make nice more castable mini jig. Here is an example of a weighted fly - this will ride point up. (https://alantani.com/gallery/29/11927_14_09_19_12_12_32.jpeg)
Tied up with yak hair and feathers (https://alantani.com/gallery/35/11927_20_11_21_11_51_47.jpeg)
And they do catch fish
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/11927_14_09_19_1_33_17.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/11927_13_09_19_11_45_06.jpeg)
True story:
I just tied a small amount of white bucktail onto a hook and cut off the bend to make a practice fly for the local casting pond. The old timers commented on how nice that fly worked, and the little largemouth in the pond wouldn't leave it alone. That is when I first learned about the less is more concept. I actually like that fly of yours, with just a small strip of lead wire along the bottom added to keep it right side up and not spinning.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on November 21, 2021, 12:08:36 AM
with just a small strip of lead wire along the bottom added to keep it right side up and not spinning.
Minimalism has generally served me well in many aspects of life, fishing being a shining example.
I think I'm gonna play with the lead wire idea. I believe I have a few inches of it from aerator stones, and i can order on eBay.
And I think my next fly will be the USF special in green and gold and white
Quote from: jurelometer on November 20, 2021, 12:41:35 AM
Quote from: Decker on November 19, 2021, 10:53:29 PM
Yeah bucktail jigs are so pricey. The NJ local fluke rigs come with bucktail tied directly on the hook with monofilament line. I want to learn how to do that.
You just use a nail knot for the mono. IMHO, mono is not the greatest choice, but it is a bit faster process, because you usually don't need to cover it with coating. Hollow hair like bucktail will flare out as you tighten it, but mono has to be really tight to hold, so it is hard to control the flair. And it is difficult to get a permanent grip on the material with mono, so you end up needing to do a bit of coating anyways. I prefer to use thread, and coat with something hard to add durability. Danville flat waxed nylon is king for the very small stuff. Thick nylon thread for the big stuff. If you have size D rod wrapping thread handy, you are all set for one oz jigs. When using thread, you just wind around and tie off with 4 or more half hitches, or a whip finish if you want to impress the fly tiers.
I really enjoy the way everyone on this site talks about materials and techniques for building and doing. I learned how to tie flies when I was a Boy Scout and years before I ever had a fly rod. These days I am married and raising children with a head full of project-itos and little time or focus or execute them.
These fluke rigs with hair snelled on the hook appeal to my fatherly thriftiness, and I wonder if it is possible to put one together quickly and without much equipment.
I say give it a shot. When I wrapped my first one, I started by looking for a video, saw that all the videos were like 20 minutes long. I dont have that kind of attention span. So i just started wrapping. Turns out the method that I figured out entirely on my own is pretty fast. Start to finish like 3 minutes to wrap a bucktail. I cant imagine that's gonna be much harder.
fyi ive never used a fly vise. shop vise works and is faster, especially as I use nylon uphostery thread and cinch down pretty firmly.
Sally hansen hard as nails nail polish topcoat works great. you'll have all the cheap mylar you want in four weeks- walmart after Christmas. maribou feathers in the craft section.
Quote from: thorhammer on November 23, 2021, 11:47:40 PM
fyi ive never used a fly vise. shop vise works and is faster, especially as I use nylon uphostery thread and cinch down pretty firmly.
Sally hansen hard as nails nail polish topcoat works great. you'll have all the cheap mylar you want in four weeks- walmart after Christmas. maribou feathers in the craft section.
I LOVE my rotary vise. I don't know how a shop vise could be faster, I'm not saying it isn't but keeping the bobbin steady and spinning the fly is pretty fast.
The Man
Muscle memory from doing it for 30 years- there were no rotary vises anywhere in my redneck o' the woods and no internet then, nor would I pay postage. From a dead start with no experience result may be different. Hooks- 100 for seven bucks from a local tackle store behind the dam. Dollar rattle can paint. Scavenged lead from tire shops, and cured out the tails from my deer or buddies' with borax. Nail lacquer for sealer. Nylon, feathers, mylar, glitter from walmart. Basically everything from walmart but hooks, like the other guuys fishing back there. Thousands of stripers caugh on these. When I was wrapping to sell, I could get one wrapped and glue on in under a minute with no strags poking through.
:o Hook vice Dang when i was a kid ,the wine bottle with the cork in it was the hook vice .
For that fluke fly- I agree with Thorhammer: No need to spend any money beyond the raw materials if you are not going into production. It is nice to have a bit a room to for the tail (wing) to lay out when you wrap to ensure that you have an even distribution. Needle nose mini vice grips work well. I prefer using the vice grip trick over my nice rotary vice for big (2-12 oz) jig heads.
Looking at the photo, there are a couple things to consider. First of all, it looks like they are using heavy stiff mono for a lcombo eader and a wrap. This will ensure that the fly sticks out straight and doesn't move much or catch weeds. Will also tangle less. I am not a fluke guy, so feel free to correct me.
There is a ton of hair on that fly. It makes the tail very stiff. That much hair at that short length kills the action of the hair. Lots of potential reasons for killing the action, a few of them reasonable. The most common reason is that consumers tend to prefer flies and jigs with lots of material, even if the fish might not.
With that much hair plus the thick mono, the challenge is going to be getting a tie that keeps the hair from falling out and the knot not pulling out.
If we could establish how these puppies are going to be rigged up and any performance requirements, there are probably better ways to tie one up that are not that complicated and more effective. I would tend to want to wrap with thread, flair the tail a bit, use less hair, and tie the leader to the hook, unless there is a good reason not to.
Lots of useful easy tricks if you decide to tie with thread. For example, tie the bucktail on backwards and then bend all the hair toward the back. You control the flair by how you build up the thread in front side. Now you have a nice solid profile that is hollow in the middle, so you will have better action. Check out Bob Popovics hollow fleye for more details on the technique. I saw a post or two somewhere from folks using the hollow fleye trick for bucktail jigs. Very fast once you get the hang of it.
I am not an advocate for getting too fancy, but might as well let the natural material do its job. Otherwise, tie with unwound polypropylene packing cord for fibers that will never wear out.
-J
Ya never know sometimes what'll get bit and what won't.
Once I tied a dry Golden Stone fly using some hair I found, thinking it was hollow-bodied moose hair used for high floating flies. It weren't. The beginning times... but I knew how' ta cast and I was killing it one day at the start of the seasonal hatch. Expert lookin guy's were coming over to see what I was using. I believe the mostly sub-merged fly just looked different to those educated(very picky) trout, compared to high-floating typical stuff they had gotten used to. Perhaps a drowned fly looked safer to them. Stoners crawl out onto vegetation as nymphs, molt to adults, then fly out over the water to mate. You can even sometimes see their eggs hit the water. Trout really gain weight during that hatch. I got a big'n that was so full he couldn't hardly fight.
Good tips from John and Dave, Joe. I like how the leader knot is the head of that fly. Dave forgot to mention the "throat"—a short version of the wing on the opposite side. You can hide the hook point/bend with it. Add that, and some sorta eye imitation(I like glue-on doll eyes), and you get a vice grip like Dave mentioned, some a John's nail polish, then sit in front a the TV and enjoy.
Agree with the sparse thing, seems to make the imitation look/act more natural. I'd use about 1/3 of your wing hair and make a
"Throat" with it. Spots or stripes can be cheaply added on with permanent markers, look at the tentacles on Steve's buggy lookin criters("Rock Hoppers").
I don't use a vice. Just hold it. But, it takes 15-20 minutes to make one jig.
I used to tie with rod wrapping thread but now use old 20# Spectra line. The nylon wrapping thread is good because you can put some stretch in it. The spectra is good because you can pull as hard as you want to cinch it down.
If you look hard at a buck's tail on-line and consider the source you can figure out if it is a warm season deer or cold season deer. Cold climate deer have longer and thicker hair. I use olive green dyed or natural plus a little flash of some type and 100# leader matrial for the weed (rock) guards. Every one seems to be a little bit different.
Never heard of a beard on a fly. Thought it was called a throat. We have to be careful about offending those trout fly purists :)
Like Steve, all my ties end up a little bit different. This is because they are all works of art, each one an original!
-J
Dave brings up a good point, as usual. There are jigs, then there are jigs. A quarter ounce flats wobbler with a 1/0 hook will do fine in a rotary vise, but I wouldn't want to put a deep-water grouper jig in one with a 10/0 4X heavy hook and start cranking down the thread tension. Also- good call on the mini vise grips. I've used that too, pin long side in vise and pop the hook in. Plenty of ways to skin this cat- that's why this forum is so good.
As to the subject of how much dressing: I've seen guys using jigs I wouldn't bother throwing away to catch fish. I think it depends a lot on the situation, like water clarity, feeding aggression, current, color, species. Blitzing bluefish in an inlet on falling tide with roiled brown river water coming by aren't gonna be as picky as a lone bonefish on a still flat in two feet of gin. They eat or the next one does. It either matches profile of something they want to eat, or not. There's the question of buoyancy. A lot of hair may look good but not let you drop down in a current without going up in weight, which may detract from the action. I ALWAYS have a trailer worm or grub on, and sometimes a bait strip, depending. Your style of fishing comes into play as well- long-range surfcasting or casting into three feet of water from a boat? Jigging in 300 feet of water? etc., etc. Obviously I have an affinity for them, maybe because of their effectiveness on a lot of things or maybe because made be me. Whichever, doesnt matter lol.
There was an old adage where a lot of anglers were polled for their pick of one lure to take anywhere for anything- the answer was a white bucktail jig. Maybe not for brookies or marlin, but you get the idea.
Oar, you can make an adapter , flat piece of metal to put in your fly vice and take a small KantTwist clamp and clamp the larger j hooks to the flat metal and hold the hook and rapp away. Personally a rotating vice is worth having and can be found pretty cheap if you arent proud? :'(
I have made several rotating vices with the vice grip and its about as low cost as you can get. Currently no picture will be available. >:(
For larger hooks using a typical fly vice a "notch can be filed in the jaws to hold the hooks better still working ok for pinching the smaller hooks. Another option? :o
So I made another fly. I used some lead wire folded over to weigh down the non-pointy side. I used a mix of pale green pro wrap, silver polyester, red polyester, and some stiff white synthetic hair I got at the fly shop as the outer layer. I made the stiff stuff a bit shorter than the silver/green, and i may trim a bit shorter still. The red is always longest.
If luck holds I'll go throw it today and see if anything likes it.
Never tied one on a worm hook before but I see an oportunity- I bet googly eyes from the Wallyworld craft section would glue to that 90 degree offset really well! hot glue or five minute epoxy maybe, or a dab of clear gorilla glue may be the right consistancy to mold itself around the shank and join the two eyes. worth a shot.
Quote from: thorhammer on December 01, 2021, 03:50:48 PM
Never tied one on a worm hook before but I see an oportunity- I bet googly eyes from the Wallyworld craft section would glue to that 90 degree offset really well! hot glue or five minute epoxy maybe, or a dab of clear gorilla glue may be the right consistancy to mold itself around the shank and join the two eyes. worth a shot.
Interesting idea, I may need to try that. I'd be worried the air in the googly eyes would create buoyancy concerns.
:)Another idea 💡, if you want eyes and some added weight to your fly, maybe tie on some dumbbell eyes
Typical of the Clouser minnow pattern? Pretty easy.
For my small stream I've made some with tiny copper wire a silicone tiny split shot crimped and simple twist on the hook shank. These could be wrapped with thread before the main body and cemented with the other feathers. Just saying. Good luck 👍 🍀. Enjoy every day.
:) Interesting design with a worm hook . It looks to me that it may want to swim upside down or do a lot of rolling on a twitch retrieve.
Quote from: oldmanjoe on December 01, 2021, 07:17:32 PM
:) Interesting design with a worm hook . It looks to me that it may want to swim upside down or do a lot of rolling on a twitch retrieve.
That appeared to be the case on my first attempt, using these same hooks. That's why I'm now trying with the added lead to counteract that. Will it work? Will it be enough? We'll see.
I did the worm hook intentionally, thinking the bend would make it more likely to stay where I put it. Still making it up as i go.
Lots of flies tied on worm hooks, but 60 degree jig hooks are more popular. They are all intended to ride point up. The jig hooks get a lot more corner hook sets, which is nice for catch and release, and also less likely for a leader to get chewed through. These type of hooks tend to bend open more, but that may not be a problem, depending on what you are fishing for. I think this was covered earlier in the thread.
The fly tying conventional wisdom is that most or all of the wing/tail material should be on the top of the shank (facing the bend). Even if the material is a bit heavier than water, the increased resistance on the drop will make it tend to face upward. With the right amount of the right type of material, weight on the bottom of the shank is not always necessary, but a more fishable fly benefits from a little bit of weight. With enough weight, the material location will not matter much. Tied away from the bend (as Jason did) does have the advantage of fouling less.
A few degrees of wobble can be effective, as long as it doesn't do a full spin. With some exceptions, conventional wisdom is that a streamer fly should always "track straight" (zero wobble). Lure guys usually think of tracking straight as a lure that does not tend to swim more off to one side, and find wobble to be a beneficial feature :). The more wobbly a fly (or lure), the lower the top speed before spinning out.
Me , I like a bit of wobble in a slow fly, but it is sort of a special purpose deal.
We talked about adding clouser style eyes and the effect on positioning front/back earlier in this thread. Googly eyes add buoyancy. They used to be quite popular, but are not used much nowadays. They do add a bulk to the fly head without adding a lot of weight, which can be desirable in situations requiring a fly that pushes more water but does not sink too fast.
For Jason's fly, I would personally try the blind version first. This lack of bulk is what makes this fly-jig different than normal lures. Less is more.
-J
A couple more tricks:
1. Anti-foul internal tail.
One of my favorite tricks for a non fouling (material wrapping around the bend) "tail": Wrap a small amount of stiff material around the shank. This should be tied toward the back of the hook, but not as far back as the bend. Trim this material so that it extends about half a hook length beyond the bend. Now tie in your normal tail in front of the stiff tail you just tied, so that it surrounds the stiff tail and extends beyond it to the desired length. This can actually improve the action in addition to decreasing fouling.
2. Tail weighting.
Wrap a few coils of lead wire around a chunk of stiff mono. Tie the mono to the shank of the fly so that the lead tail extends a bit past the bend. Now tie a normal streamer/bucktail fly (not too long) with a bit of bulk in the head, but little or no weight. Use a stop/start retrieve. On the stop, the extra momentum keeps the back moving fast as the front slows down, so the back ends up swinging out to the side just like a car sliding out (AKA fishtailing :) )
Deadly for fish that bite on the stop, but a pain in the a** to cast on a fly rod. This style works nice on jig hooks.
If I have one sitting around somewhere, I will post a photo.
There have been times in Baja where I gave a spinner guy a fly and an egg sinker when flies were working better than lures, usually when school tuna were feeding on smaller stuff. But I think there is probably a better opportunity to use slightly weighted flies with a spinner and light braid for things like bass and snook - sort a fly optimized for spinning. I can't be the first person who has thought of this. [edit- actually Jason just thought of this too :) ]
Fun stuff.
-J
That's great info thank you.
This one definitely rides hook down. The weight didnt do it. I'll adjust.
Here is a step by step on a somewhat complex rear weighted fly tied on a jig hook, but the basic process can be used on something simpler.
https://www.saltwatersportsman.com/gallery/photo-galleries/2004/06/tying-lead-aZZ-mac/
But you have to replace the ZZ with "ss" in the link above. Mr Tani does not allow naughty words on his site, even in URLs :)
Those Eagle claw 413 60 degree jig hooks are not used for salt water fly tying much any more, as they are one of the worst for bending open. They still work fine for lighter duty flies or for non heavy duty jigs. I have a a couple hundred of these from size 4 to 2/0. If anybody wants them (price= free), I will see if I can dig them up.
-J
If it's a jig instead of a fly, then you need some heft to it. Lash a tungsten bullet or flipping weight under the hook (with the bend pointing up). Anchor it to the shoulder or eye to keep it from sliding backwards. The low center of gravity will keep the bend pointing up so it will not spin or lay on its side. This minimizes snags when working the bottom.
Unlike my hooks, I am not one to go down without a fight.
More lead, taking advantage of the bend of the worm hook such that this weight should be below the midline of the moving hook, and put the fluff on the point side. Unlike previous models I was quite liberal with the epoxy this time. I was thinking about what Roman said in a separate thread about epoxy being roughly the density of water. So this would add casting weight but not cause extra sinking... Right? The end result is less pretty though. But if the fish dont care neither do I. (But if they care, maybe I should? 8) )
Ok this one swims hook point up, and all it took was listening to the advice of people who have done it before. Funny how that works out.
Nothing was biting in the 12 minutes I was casting, but its proof of concept.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/35/17471_03_11_21_2_18_20_357471486.png)
Maybe dress the lead egg sinker and then add the hook .
Split shot / line sinker fit hook in grove and tye
or, you could just treat yourself & dress it how you like
(hope that's the standard 2-pack cheaper -- not, per each)
https://www.fishusa.com/Storm-360GT-Searchbait-Swimmer-Jig-Head
seriously, how long would it take you to make something like that
w/ all the time you save, you could dress the tail hook on your bare@$$ed ChugBug ;)
What's that wire loop/eye under the head for?
Quote from: philaroman on December 03, 2021, 11:07:15 PM
or, you could just treat yourself & dress it how you like
(hope that's the standard 2-pack cheaper -- not, per each)
https://www.fishusa.com/Storm-360GT-Searchbait-Swimmer-Jig-Head
Need a solid body like a swimbait for a lipped jig head. The lip needs a body to lever against.
Plus I think that the point for this tie is a something small profile and closer to neutral buoyancy.
Quote from: oc1 on December 04, 2021, 06:43:30 AM
What's that wire loop/eye under the head for?
Hanging a trailer hook, which is not my favorite thing to do with a swim bait.
-J
A 2nd hook would be my choice, but maybe you could attach a spinner blade.
Quote from: jurelometer on December 04, 2021, 07:15:03 AM
Quote from: philaroman on December 03, 2021, 11:07:15 PM
or, you could just treat yourself & dress it how you like
(hope that's the standard 2-pack cheaper -- not, per each)
https://www.fishusa.com/Storm-360GT-Searchbait-Swimmer-Jig-Head
Need a solid body like a swimbait for a lipped jig head. The lip needs a body to lever against.
Plus I think that the point for this tie is a something small profile and closer to neutral buoyancy.
Quote from: oc1 on December 04, 2021, 06:43:30 AM
What's that wire loop/eye under the head for?
Hanging a trailer hook, which is not my favorite thing to do with a swim bait.
-J
seemed like Jason was trying for a swim-jig, rather than bouncer/dragger
I do like the pretty modern heads, esp. w/ paddle-tails
yes, just threw up :D the one on sale w/ most features (bling?)
I think they do come plain, down to 1/8 oz 2/0 (smaller from other brands)
alternately, in "billowy" options w/out long weighted body/"active tail",
could the bottom eye be used for a LONG trailer... something like smaller Clouser on 4-6" leader?
might even be enough resistance to make lipped version functional
Back at it again.
I'm playing with a bit shorter tails and going for extra fluffy. The one with the bit of green has white 80# braid as the skirt.
I'm trying to play with using the stiffer hair to create sort of a weed guard that hopefully wouldnt block a bite. Need to try them out.
And maybe it's just me, but I feel like the tiger thread looks like scales. We'll see if the fish agree. Hope so because I used the last I had.
Gonna see if I can try some out tomorrow.
Jason those look awesome. Over here in southern California those would make great jigs for fishing structure in winter time for sculpin, sand bass and calico bass.
flip yer wrap; tiger on top, white on bottom, looks like finger mullet. I have some of the flashabou in that mottle somewhere.
Quote from: thorhammer on November 19, 2021, 06:58:36 PMPowder paint is also very easy durable, just need a way to heat jig. toatser oven or heat gun is great.
A heat gun works(?) -- That's good to know.
Yep- I hold jighead with vice grips, heat and dip. After it cools, I will heat again on low to smooth it out. Not the fastest, but I'm only making a dozen or so at the time for myself. A DIY fluid bed is on the long list of crap I'm meaning to build, but I'm dipping directly in the jar, and it does pretty well.
John
Not sure about those fluid dippers. They aerialize a lot of powder in an uncontrolled way and are pretty messy. For something like a soft lead jig head, getting an even, exact coating thickness is not that important. It is the curing that makes or breaks the job.
You can just warm up the lead with a heat gun or torch and use various dusting techniques (like bumping a paintbrush full of powder over a hot jig). This works ok, and even allows for two tone finishes. The smaller the jig, the better dusting works. It is hard to keep a big jig hot.
A short bake (try an old toaster oven -don't use for food) is the key to getting a full cure. And if you want to keep the paint on the jig even longer, consider first applying an epoxy powder primer. I just started using primer on powder coated jigs, and it has been working well so for.
And you can buy a full pound of powder from a paint supplier for little more than the price of those tiny jars that they sell to fishermen. The regular poly/urethane powders work fine for dipping and dusting. It's probably the same stuff.
If you are taking kids fishing, it might be worth putting a powder coat on any bare lead that they might handle - sinkers, jigs, etc. Lead does not get absorbed through skin-it has to be inhaled or ingested. Hand to mouth is the usual route. Grab a sinker, then grab a drink or sammich... Maybe a neutral grey color if you don't want it to stand out more than bare lead.
-J
This isnt a bucktail but it also isn't worth its own thread. I added an assist hook to a spoon. I used an inline hook so it wouldn't snag on every bit of vegetation that it passes. But i realized that the assist hook could be completely covered by the spoon, defeating the purpose. So I took my grinder and thinned down the "neck" of the spoon to expose the hook.
And of course I replaced the treble out the back with a single hook because i like my fingers. But I didn't need to use an expensive inline for it, it flaps around enough that it doesnt really matter where it's pointed.
Gotta give it a test to see if I wasted my time.
Jurelometer, if your fluidized bed is spraying powder you've got too much air in it or the cup is too full.
Jason-They've called school off again so I spent some time in the shop today. I Put together a handful of stuff to send south for your spring season!
Quote from: Wolfram M on January 17, 2024, 09:46:01 PMJurelometer, if your fluidized bed is spraying powder you've got too much air in it or the cup is too full.
Powder is quite fine/light, so once it starts getting blown into the air, there is no magic shield that stops the powder at the top of the cup, even a well tuned one. You need a bit of negative air pressure to guide the powder, like a bit of vacuum at the back of a cardboard box on its side, or a blower/filter, or a blower that vents to the outside. This is what we do with an electrostatic powder coating system. Come to think of it you can do the same thing for one of those fluidizer/dippers.
Note that the powder is flammable, and powdersuspended in air can be explosive in larger concentrations, so if going through a bunch of powder, you need a filter to keep the powder away from anything electrical like vacuums and fans to a
Agree that you can make them less messy with some care, but I am still personally ant-fluidizer. I have seen loose aerialized
Agree that you should minimize by controlling air low , but
Quote from: Wolfram M on January 17, 2024, 09:46:01 PMJurelometer, if your fluidized bed is spraying powder you've got too much air in it or the cup is too full.
Powder paint is quite fine, so once it starts getting suspended in air, there is no magic barrier that stops all of the powder at the top of the cup, even a well-tuned one.
Agree that proper tuning makes a difference. Some of those "expert" videos look more like an elementary school volcano science project exhibit than a painting device!
Even with a well-behaved open-air fluidizer, I expect that you will eventually find powder building up on flat surfaces a remarkable distance away, and probably in your lungs as well.
I just don't see fluid dippers as worth it. It is basically an open-air hot flocking device, which does not give you that accurate a coat.
A dipping jar gets you by for a few small jig heads. If you want to go fancier multi-color, or coat medium sized objects that can still be heated evenly but are too big to dip, go to drop dusting, Once you get into anything bigger, just get a cheap electrostatic gun, a homemade box-filter-fan booth(read up on powder dust explosion risk), a toaster oven, and a regulator with particulate cartridges.
Just my opinion from playing with powder coating at home and in a shop with a real booth and oven setup. Not an expert.
-J