Im totally new to using any kind of Smoker, but recently a good friend which is moving from here back to the USA, well he offered me his propane smoker, he's good guy and I know nothing about a smoker so, I took it to help him get rid of his stuff. that said, now I want to start using it, I know there are tons of recipes and tutorials on how to use the smoker, but I prefer to ask here first, basically I just need an easy recipe for a beginner to smoke some fresh Tuna fillets I got recently from a Friend that fished MagBay few days ago (madgalena Bay, Baja sur) 5hrs south cedros island, anyway.
My plan is to smoke some small cuts of tuna fillets, something like those "Tuna Candy" from PJStevko https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,36892.0.html
As I said, I know nothing about smoking fish or any other meat so, bear with me and explain as you would do to a 3rd grade kiddo :)
the propane Smoker I got is this same model
the smoker came with all the original accesories and 100% ready to smoke some meat, it came with its small 10lb propane tank, but I need some apple and cherry wood and a good.
so, two or three different recipes for tuna would be great, I dont like spicy jerky flavors
Propane will help keep the smoker temp at a constant temp easier. You should also get a dual probe digital meat thermomotor, something like this is fine
https://www.amazon.com/ThermoPro-Bluetooth-Thermometer-Wireless-Rechargeable/dp/B08K2G5Y78?th=1
As far as recipes go just use some soy sauce, citrus juice, brown sugar, garlic, ginger and spices and you're all set. Let the small chunks marinate for a few hours or overnight, pull them out of the marinade, pat them dry with paper towels, air dry them until the meat forms a sticky film on it, then place it in the smoker.
Hope that helps.
Alex - You are going to get a LOT of good recipes and input from the Ohana. Let me give you some more general overall guidance, and I apologize if I am stating the obvious common knowledge. But you did say you were starting out at square one.
Some folks like the fish or meat smoked to the point of preservation (jerky) where there is so little retained moisture it has very good perishability. The other way to do this is to retain a lot of moisture, but then the finished product will want to be consumed quickly or refrigerated and consumed quickly. I tend to lean into the latter group.
With smokers and marinating, you are primarily affecting the surface/subsurface of the meat. So when selecting or trimming your cuts, the ratio of surface area/volume is pretty critical. Lots of surface area on thin cuts = lots of flavor BUT also can get done or dry out quickly, whereas really thick filets/chunks you will get less smoke per bite but will generally be more moist.
Marinades/brines - not going to dip to far into that arena, everybody has their own favorites. There is a lot of flexibility and you will develop your own as well. But for the most part they all work on the principle of osmosis, hence why salt is so popular. Super salty solutions can be used to "drive" moisture and flavor into the tissues (the opposite is acheived in one of my favorite Hawaiian dishes, Lomi Lomi salmon where you basically crust the fish to pull out the moisture, but that is another topic). The same can be done with sugar (my preferred method). Note that when you do this the salt for the most part remain in the solution, hence my many brines recommended a "rinse/pat dry" after brining, to get rid of all the excess salt on the surface.
Wood - Different woods impart different levels of flavor and have unique characters. There are many smoking guides on wood types. Hickory - going to taste like ham. Alder - favorite for salmon, very mild. Citrus woods - some of my favorite's but also readily available since I am in Southern California where we have bulldozed most citrus orchards for housing tracts. Pecan (I have an old pecan plantation nearby). Mesquite - Very assertive, easily sourced but I like it especially for beef. Eucalyptus - No, No, No. And NO.
Early on in your efforts, check often. As you learn the craft - better to pull meat too early and check than to go too far. Worst case all of the filets are consumed in the process... :D
Anyhow, those are just some basics. You're going to get some great recipes I know and will quickly get some good results. Looking forward to seeing your efforts! - john
consider adding a bay leaf and red pepper flakes/jalapeno to pj's brine recipe. heat ingredients in saucepan for a few min and cool to room temp before marinating. sprinkle a little brown sugar & a few more red pepper flakes on top of each piece in the smoker.
good, those are really nice tips and advices, thanks
Regarding marinades: salt will be able to penetrate beyond the surface, and will actually be drawn inside in order to equalize the salinity of the water in the meat with the marinade. Higher acidity will denature (similar to cooking) proteins. The rest of these so-called "flavor" molecules are too large to penetrate much beyond the surface and won't be doing much during the marinade process. So the amount of marinade that is left on the surface for cooking will mostly determine the transfer of flavorings.
My apologies if you have already done this, but I would suggest on reading up a bit on food safety for smoking fish. A process and recipe that might have been successful in colder ambient temperatures might not be a good idea in a warmer region with some differences in available ingredients. Many folk are not very scientific about ensuring the right temperatures and salt levels, and some will even get angry if food safety is brought up: "I did it this way for 20 years, blah blah blah" :)
Since you are dealing with longer times and lower temperatures for smoking, there is more potential to end up with a bad batch of food compared to the regular cooking methods.
Here is one reference:
https://seafood.oregonstate.edu/sites/agscid7/files/snic/smoking-fish-at-home-safely.pdf (https://seafood.oregonstate.edu/sites/agscid7/files/snic/smoking-fish-at-home-safely.pdf)
Happy smoking!
-J
My-Two-Cents-Worth:
Alejando,
Mi Amigo and Gradian of my Parents, here is what I like:
Marinate in Teriyaki overnight.
For Jerky remove the skin, if you want it moist leave the skin on.
Remove from the marinade and place on the smoking tray, I don't like to hang fish unless I'm making a lot.
Garlic salt to taste.
Place brown sugar down the center of the cuts approx. 5mm in height and 1/3rd of the cut thick.
Smoke at 200 degrees for the texture, jerky or moist, that your after.
I like fruit woods but Hickory or Oak is always a good fall back if you don't have a choice.
Moist normally takes 1-2 hours and will peel off the skin.
I don't know how you like your jerky but I prefer chewy over something that'll ruin my dental work. After 2+ hours keep an eye on it.
One thing to keep in mind is propane anything has hot and cold spots, so if your able to rotate the trays a quarter turn at a time and top to bottom I'd highly recommend it.
FYI: The brown sugar will melt and coat the whole top side of the meat which is why it's placed in a ridge down the center. If you coat the whole side it'll melt off and make a mess on the bottom of the smoker.
May even catch the smoker on fire....but don't ask me how I know that. :d
Steve
I don't have any recipes for you, but can only tell you how I like to eat it lol!
Some of the best tuna I've had, comes from secrets in Ocean City, Maryland!
It's blackened, and then smoked, not sure exactly how they do to it, but OMG...!!!
It served with Jamaican jerk sauce on the side, and it's so darn good, you literally drooling over here now lol!
The only time I've cooked fresh tuna was when somebody gave me a couple steaks, years ago.
I put them a Weber charcoal grill and smoked the daylights out of them. I was using Cherry wood only, and they were absolutely awesome that way too!
Dave, I'm gonna kick that hornets nest. Not about food safety considerations. You're absolutely correct there. Smoking does have an acidifying effect on the surface of meat which mitigates the risk a bit but not enough to skip at the minimum reading about it.
But I'm gonna argue about marinades. The fact that we don't have a good understanding of the mechanism doesn't mean there isn't an observable effect. The plural of anecdote isn't data. I haven't gone off the deep end. But theres just so much depth to the world of food chemistry in terms of how the compounds in different ingredients can interact with different proteins. Add pineapple or papaya, everything changes. I refuse to believe enough studies have been done to conclusively rule out the merits of extended marination.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on December 21, 2023, 03:58:52 AMDave, I'm gonna kick that hornets nest. Not about food safety considerations. You're absolutely correct there. Smoking does have an acidifying effect on the surface of meat which mitigates the risk a bit but not enough to skip at the minimum reading about it.
But I'm gonna argue about marinades. The fact that we don't have a good understanding of the mechanism doesn't mean there isn't an observable effect. The plural of anecdote isn't data. I haven't gone off the deep end. But theres just so much depth to the world of food chemistry in terms of how the compounds in different ingredients can interact with different proteins. Add pineapple or papaya, everything changes. I refuse to believe enough studies have been done to conclusively rule out the merits of extended marination.
Dunno. It seems relatively straightforward to me. But if you can find a credible scientific reference that disputes this, I would be grateful.
You can also try a more practical experiment. Take two pieces of meat, say a thick chicken breast. Make a marinade that is just salt and water. Make another marinade that has the same salt content plus whatever magical ingredients you like to use.
One piece of meat in each. Marinate for your favorite length of time, wipe off all the marinade, quick rinse. Cut the meat into 1/2 inch cubes, keeping the outer half inch separate for tasting. Cook the cubes in separate batches and do a blind tasting.
This is not to say that folks' favorite marinades are useless. Just that they are not working the way that we think that they are.
-J
Another thing to do with those little bits of good tuna that don't make steaks after you've had your fill of sushi/sashimi/poke/crudo, you can salt the tuna and pack in sterilized mason jars with good olive oil and gently bring them up to temperature in a water bath or sous vide. Tuna poached and packed in oil is really, really good.
https://honest-food.net/how-to-cook-bonito-fish/
Quote from: jurelometer on December 21, 2023, 12:20:14 AMMy apologies if you have already done this, but I would suggest on reading up a bit on food safety for smoking fish. A process and recipe that might have been successful in colder ambient temperatures might not be a good idea in a warmer region with some differences in available ingredients. Many folk are not very scientific about ensuring the right temperatures and salt levels, and some will even get angry if food safety is brought up: "I did it this way for 20 years, blah blah blah" :)
Here is one reference:
https://seafood.oregonstate.edu/sites/agscid7/files/snic/smoking-fish-at-home-safely.pdf (https://seafood.oregonstate.edu/sites/agscid7/files/snic/smoking-fish-at-home-safely.pdf)
Happy smoking!
-J
no need to apologize when talking about double-checking food safety measures, my wife is "pharmacobiologist chemist" and is very aware of food safety by her previous jobs working on food industry, I will read and share that linked info with her
Quote from: Crab Pot on December 21, 2023, 12:32:55 AMMy-Two-Cents-Worth:
Alejando,
Mi Amigo and Gradian of my Parents, here is what I like:
I don't know how you like your jerky but I prefer chewy over something that'll ruin my dental work. After 2+ hours keep an eye on it.
FYI: The brown sugar will melt and coat the whole top side of the meat which is why it's placed in a ridge down the center. If you coat the whole side it'll melt off and make a mess on the bottom of the smoker.
May even catch the smoker on fire....but don't ask me how I know that. :d
Steve
thanks for that Fire risk warning
Quote from: Squidder Bidder on December 21, 2023, 11:56:50 AMAnother thing to do with those little bits of good tuna that don't make steaks after you've had your fill of sushi/sashimi/poke/crudo, you can salt the tuna and pack in sterilized mason jars with good olive oil and gently bring them up to temperature in a water bath or sous vide. Tuna poached and packed in oil is really, really good.
sounds good, I have tried Poached Salmon on olive oil just like you say it and it was good, so, I truly believe tuna should be good too
@ pointBob, thanks for the recipe link
Here is my above recipe with Salmon.
Which I'm getting ready to broil.
I did not catch the Salmon, it was farmed raised on the East Coast.
Because the Brian Trust in Sacramento closed the Salmon season this year...before it opened.
I sure wish one of Gov. Newsome's relatives was a commercial fisherman...
After:
hey Stevo, I would eat that Salmon in a heartbeat, looks yum!!
I have 23 years of regulatory food safety experience and I was the project lead for the 2019 revision of the AFDO Cured, Salted and Smoked Fish Establishments Guidance Document. Download a free copy at www.afdo.org and
PM me your number and I will call you.
I will be glad to help you safely make smoked fish at home.
That goes for anyone.
Also see in the recipes section where I have posted Food Safety for All.
Eugene
Sorry, I was reading quick and didn't see that your post is already in recipes.
Been a long week. Hope everyone cooks to safe temperatures, cools food rapidly and eats well this weekend (for those celebrating)
Eugene
Eugene!
I was hoping you would jump in. I would like to add a couple comments and questions if you don't mind.
It took a bit a digging, but I think that you are referring to this document:
https://www.afdo.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Cured_salted_and_smoked_fish_establishments_good_manufacturing_practices_acc_updated_2019.pdf (https://www.afdo.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Cured_salted_and_smoked_fish_establishments_good_manufacturing_practices_acc_updated_2019.pdf)
Interesting reading, but I assume for the general public, determining the water phase salt percentage is pretty close to impossible, Even though Alex is more fortunate enough than most of us to have an actual trained chemist in the house, there is still the equipment issue.
1. Your "Food Safety for all" thread (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,19112.0.html (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,19112.0.html) ) also mentioned the 3.5% water phase salt target, but I didn't see any information on how someone at home is supposed to accomplish this. Is this possible?
2. How important is hitting a high (and specific) salt level if the fish is going from 38F into a hot smoker and hitting the internal target temp (145F?) for enough time (30 minutes?), presuming that the fish is consumed immediately or rapidly chilled below 38F and consumed within three days or so?
3. I remember reading something about the drying on the surface during smoking can create a more anerobic environment underneath which will favor the growth of some specific nasty bacteria, so smoking may not have the same safety profile as let's say, roasting, even if the same target temps/times are achieved. Is this correct?
4. Is there a document that you would recommend for us civilians interested in hot smoking sport caught fish for consumption within the next day or three? Do you have any issues with the OSU document that I linked to? It has some brining instructions that could actually be followed by a home processor.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on December 23, 2023, 12:49:17 AMEugene!
I was hoping you would jump in. I would like to add a couple comments and questions if you don't mind.
It took a bit a digging, but I think that you are referring to this document:
https://www.afdo.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Cured_salted_and_smoked_fish_establishments_good_manufacturing_practices_acc_updated_2019.pdf (https://www.afdo.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Cured_salted_and_smoked_fish_establishments_good_manufacturing_practices_acc_updated_2019.pdf)
You got the right document.....
Interesting reading, but I assume for the general public, determining the water phase salt percentage is pretty close to impossible, Even though Alex is more fortunate enough than most of us to have an actual trained chemist in the house, there is still the equipment issue.
1. Your "Food Safety for all" thread (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,19112.0.html (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,19112.0.html) ) also mentioned the 3.5% water phase salt target, but I didn't see any information on how someone at home is supposed to accomplish this. Is this possible?
YES- This is possible by using a water activity meter. If shooting for 3.5% WPS you would need an equivalent water activity of 0.979. If you are using sugar and salt mixture, you can go down below 0.97 without it being too salty but you will totally control non-proteolytic Cbot.
2. How important is hitting a high (and specific) salt level if the fish is going from 38F into a hot smoker and hitting the internal target temp (145F?) for enough time (30 minutes?), presuming that the fish is consumed immediately or rapidly chilled below 38F and consumed within three days or so?
HOT smoking to 145F and holding for 30 minutes will achieve a partial destruction of non-proteolytic Cbot spores and combined with water phase salt/water activity being controlled, you will prevent the spores from repairing themselves and creating toxin under temperature abuse conditions. If you are going to ALL of the fish in one siting right out of the smoker, this is not crucial but if you are not, don't take the risk.
3. I remember reading something about the drying on the surface during smoking can create a more anerobic environment underneath which will favor the growth of some specific nasty bacteria, so smoking may not have the same safety profile as let's say, roasting, even if the same target temps/times are achieved. Is this correct?
THE Pellicle creates an anaerobic environment which can contribute to Cbot toxin formation even outside of vacuum packaging. This is why it is important to get smoke under the pellicle before drying to allow for the phenolic compounds from the smoke to drop the pH under the pellicle which will facilitate Cbot toxin formation prevention, help destroy pathogens during smoking and help achieve a longer shelf life, safely. Go right from brine/dry cure into the smoker with smoke going and apply smoke for at least the first half of the smoking cycle
4. Is there a document that you would recommend for us civilians interested in hot smoking sport caught fish for consumption within the next day or three? Do you have any issues with the OSU document that I linked to? It has some brining instructions that could actually be followed by a home processor.
The OSU document is good for home use. Getting a high quality water activity meter will make your life alot easier. If you are going to be storing the product in the fridge for periods of time and or vacuum sealing, I would suggest going with a sugar/salt brine (either dry cure or wet brine) and getting your water activity to 0.979 or lower BEFORE going in the smoker. This way you know you don't have to control humidity in the smoker which is not easy in home smokers. The sugar will be your friend to take the bite off the salt and help you achieve a safer product. The water activity will only go lower in the smoker.
When using yellowfin tuna, the natural unbrined water activity can vary from 0.92- 0.98 and this is why water activity testing is a good measure for home use. (You might not need as much salt as you would need for other fish for safety) Test the water activity of your fish before brine, after brine/dry cure and when you are done.
-J
Thanks Eugene!
It looks to me like a water activity meter is currently an option for the more deep pocketed and sophisticated home-smoker. Prices start around $650 USD, and the device has to be calibrated cleaned and operated properly to get reliable data. Leaving cost out of the picture, for many home cooks, properly maintaining and operating a can opener can be a challenge.
But I do think that this is still useful for us civillians to understand. And if we are so inclined, it sounds like following the OSU process will greatly improve the odds of the average home smoker making a product that is close to the commercial product guidelines.
While a home smoker may have confidence in their recipe and process based on anecdotal evidence ("haven't made anyone sick"), it is still worth understanding how you are diverting from the commercial practice.
Correct me if I am wrong here: One of the keys is that in order to have the residual water in the final product have a 3.5% salt content (WPA), a super salty brine has to be used. Bottled teriyaki sauce is not anywhere near the right ballpark for brining to reach these goals. That OSU brine looks to be somewhere in the 15 to 20% salinity range!
Thanks again.
-J
You could get a decent water activity meter for 200 dollars. The key is the level of accuracy. The Aqualab Paw kit is $8000.00 and unless you are burning 100's for heat in the fireplace, it is not feasible.
When dealing with brine solutions, you have to look at lbs of fish per gallons of brine at defined salinity concentrations, temperature of the brine (you need to dissolve the salt in warmer water but brine in water at 38F or less), thickness of fish, fat content, etc.
I would suggest someone at home use a dry salting process (using 2 parts brining salt and 1 part of sugar). I would suggest achieving a water activity of less than 0.979 (water phase salt) greater than 3.5% before going in the smoker. Some home smokers are not that sophisticated and trying to calculate moisture loss to achieve the proper water activity/water phase salt can be challenging.
Conduct the dry salting under 38F or less. The more sugar you use, the slower the process to absorb but you can bind water and remove water without the heavy salt taste.
After dry salting, do a quick rinse to remove salt/sugar crystals and immediately place in the smoker to apply smoke and and start the smoking/drying process.
You can get the internal temperature to 145F and hold for 30 minutes much faster without the need for controlling moisture removal. If your finished product gets a water activity of 0.97 or less, you have totally controlled non-proteolytic Cbot without the need for phenolic compounds and a partial destruction of spores. For the people at home with limited equipment, using multiple hurdles (barriers) is the way to go for safety.
When using water phase salt of 3.5%/water activity 0.979(finished product) and hot smoking you need,
145F for 30 minutes
smoke applied before pellicle formation and after for at least the 1st half of the smoking cycle
Temperature of 38F or less during brining and refrigerated storage.
These combined will control the growth and toxin formation of non-proteolytic Cbot.
When using water phase salt of 5%/water activity 0.97 (finished product) and hot smoking you need.
145F for 17 minutes
smoke applied before pellicle formation and after for at least the 1st half of the smoking cycle
Temperature of 38F or less during brining and 40F or less during refrigerated storage
I personally would always go for 145F for 30 minutes unless the fish was going to be consumed immediately after coming out of the smokehouse without leftovers.
Bottled teriyaki sauce is more of an acidulant that would control pH which is different animal all together.
If you want teriyaki flavor, you can do a quick dip in teriyaki sauce after dry curing to adhere the sauce to the surface before smoking.
The OSU document will greatly improve your odds of safe home processing of smoked fish.
All food processing has dangers involved that unfortunately are never taught in school although everyone has to eat to survive. Smoking is a process that has multiple hazards that are deadly if not controlled and needs multiple steps all working in unison to control all the hazards consistently.
Eugene
Quote from: jigmaster501 on December 25, 2023, 01:40:03 PM.........smoking is a process that has multiple hazards that are deadly if not controlled and needs multiple steps all working in unison to control all the hazards consistently.
Eugene
geezzzuuss!! man I think I'd rather grill the tuna and add "smockey flavored BBQ sauce" :-\ :-\
Quote from: steelfish on December 26, 2023, 10:05:40 PMgeezzzuuss!! man I think I'd rather grill the tuna and add "smockey flavored BBQ sauce" :-\ :-\
Funny, I was at my local Big Box grocery store.
I could have bought any form of smoked meat I wanted.
Large scale processors who sell to supermarkets have validation studies done for their processes in relation to their equipment and have testing equipment that the average person cannot afford for home use. Old style smoke fish was much drier and was a true preservation technique. Modern smoked fish is much wetter resulting in the need of many more controls of many more hazards.
Quote from: jigmaster501 on December 28, 2023, 01:04:22 AM... Old style smoke fish was much drier and was a true preservation technique.
**** Modern smoked fish is much wetter resulting in the need of many more controls of many more hazards.
I like the old style smoked fish, the one that you can find on the fish market (Mexico and asian style of fish markets), you just grab the fish you want to buy and no need to eat it quickly
so, whats the difference in time (in the smoker) if I want to smoke my fish that way, very dry which is perfect for some local appetizers, salads and fish cream dips.
For that type of old style smoking, you would need to achieve 20% Water Phase salt or a Water activity of 0.85. That will make the fish shelf stable (needs no refrigeration) as long as it doesn't absorb any moisture. It will be very dry or if you use lots of sugar, very sweet. Likely a long brine/dry cure and a very long hot smoke with lots of moisture removal.
Quote from: jurelometer on December 21, 2023, 12:20:14 AM........Since you are dealing with longer times and lower temperatures for smoking, there is more potential to end up with a bad batch of food compared to the regular cooking methods.
Here is one reference:
https://seafood.oregonstate.edu/sites/agscid7/files/snic/smoking-fish-at-home-safely.pdf (https://seafood.oregonstate.edu/sites/agscid7/files/snic/smoking-fish-at-home-safely.pdf)
Happy smoking!
-J
at the beginning of the 2nd page of that document gives a "rule of the thumb" for proper salting before smocking fish
"salt the fish on a strong salt brine solution, 1 part of table salt with 7 parts of water or 1 cup of salt for 7 cups of water"
well, the myself being a rockie on using a smoker used that proportion to brine 2# of tuna cut in 1" and 2" finger size cuts, the result was a pretty salty fish :-\ the flavor was good but I dont like salty food so, we didnt eat that :-[
I used the same brine solution in a different zipbag to brine some pork and same results waaay too salty, I know the document was for smocking fish safety, not smocking pork safety but ooh well its my learning curve LOL
that was two weeks ago.
now, this past weekend I tried the smoker again but this time to smoke some short ribs, I didnt use any brine with the ribs, I just used some of my favorite pork spices mix and then leaved the pork ribs on a zipbag on the fridge for few hours, followed some steps, tips, time, temps, etc from some video tutorials and wow! they came out really good, really juicy and tender with a nice crunchy and full of flavor cap.
one of the racks of ribs was on the smoker wrapped in foil for 1.5hrs and the meat was juicy, fully cocked but still firm (I like my short ribs like that), I left the 2nd half of ribs for another 10 minutes still wrapped on foil and after that put them both for 35 minutes directly on the smoker to get that crispy skin, as you can see the half that had more minutes wrapped on foil cameout really tender
well, I wanted to try again to smoke tuna, so this time we used a brine recipe from the guy that sold me the smoker, the brine is merely for flavor on the tuna not focusing on preserve the fish for many days so, the brine recipe has salt but not that extra-salty, that tuna will be eaten in the next two days, this time I used a full piece of fillets not small cuts as the 1st time, it came out as it was planned dry with a nice smoke flavor and other aromatic flavors from the spices used, the last pictures are tuna chunks
Realize that without 3.5%Wps for vacuum packaged or 2.5% for air packaged (or knowing that you have that), you only have 1 barrier for non-proteolytic Cbot toxin formation at 38F or less.
If you go this route, you need to ensure that you get a ton of smoke under the pellicle, hold that product below 38F or less and eat as fast as possible.
the ribs look good though....lol