Sid - Do you mind if I start a thread about Penn Trade Reels?
I find it interesting how many different trade reels there have been over the years. I've started collecting some of them and I am continuously intrigued by the small and large variations.
I'll post pictures later on this evening and over the next few days but hopefully this can turn into a nice big trade reels photo reunion with some of you fellas/gals additions :)
I also think it would be great to start a list of companies/trade names they made reels for and break it down by model and maybe it's corresponding Penn reel and pair it with a photograph.
I know a lot of information is available through our great friend and author Mike C. but a little database here at AT.com would be sweet as well. Also, there are a few trade reels done post the late 50's as well ;)
I think this could be quite fun. ;D
Edit: 8/8/16 - Adding a list of Trade Names (that Penn manufactured)...please post with any new/additional info
Edward K. Tryon Company - King-Fisher reels
Baker, Hamilton & Pacific Co. - Baker Beach reels
Schultz Tackle - Schultz Reels
Gus Walz (Thanks Brian)
L.L. Bean
Abbey & Imbrie
J.C. Higgins (Sears Roebuck) - J.C. Higgins Reels
Penn Trade Reels - Various Names (Either showing or not showing Penn on the product)
New York Hardware Trading Company - (Diamond on side plate)
Edit: 8/10/16 - There were a few other companies that did Trade reels for some of the companies above...pay close attention to things such as eccentric levers, reel stands, handles etc etc and compare them to Penn prior to assuming it was done by Penn...I know I've made this mistake and hopefully it'll save you some coin in the long run ;D
Quote from: coastal_dan on August 08, 2016, 04:54:27 PM
Sid - Do you mind if I start a thread about Penn Trade Reels?
I find it interesting how many different trade reels there have been over the years. I've started collecting some of them and I am continuously intrigued by the small and large variations.
I'll post pictures later on this evening and over the next few days but hopefully this can turn into a nice big trade reels photo reunion with some of you fellas/gals additions :)
I also think it would be great to start a list of companies/trade names they made reels for and break it down by model and maybe it's corresponding Penn reel and pair it with a photograph.
I know a lot of information is available through our great friend and author Mike C. but a little database here at AT.com would be sweet as well. Also, there are a few trade reels done post the late 50's as well ;)
I think this could be quite fun. ;D
Not at all, Dan. Anyone can post in any part of the forum. I think the addition of a section on trade reels is a great idea!
Sid
What are "trade reels"?
Reels made by a manufacturer and given a brand name like Sears Roebuck reel or Cabela's. I think that's what is being referred to here. Dominick
... a Private Label reel? like like car tire companies do?
Like this King-Fisher, perhaps? I believe this is a 1933 Penn 250 yd Long Beach marketed by the E. K. Tryon Company.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010700_zpsssmz0ooo.jpg)
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010698_zpsrczrpake.jpg)
Exactly the idea George and Dominick! Penn, as well as other manufacturers, has manufactured reels for other companies/stores/endeavors under trade names to boost sales, all while being pushed through the Penn plant. This process spans decades! Mike may pitch in at some point, but a lot of this may be redundant if you own 'the book'. The pictures that follow in this thread will hopefully expand into a lot of photos and reference data for any and all to read.
George - Nice King-Fisher!
I've taken a likin' to the #14 and #15 Trade reels, so here goes my post for the evening...
Ocean Side Regal based on the Penn #15
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03538_zps5i54hq1v.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03538_zps5i54hq1v.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03539_zpsz36purd0.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03539_zpsz36purd0.jpg.html)
Surf Angler #25 based on Penn #15
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03540_zpsiucgvdj8.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03540_zpsiucgvdj8.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03541_zpsabofd1dk.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03541_zpsabofd1dk.jpg.html)
Live Wire Surf Reel #938 based on Penn #15
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03542_zps3pqyfkkh.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03542_zps3pqyfkkh.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03543_zpszoczxnct.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03543_zpszoczxnct.jpg.html)
Offshore Deep Sea Reel based on Penn #15
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03546_zpsnkvslhn1.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03546_zpsnkvslhn1.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03547_zpsf3yavovv.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03547_zpsf3yavovv.jpg.html)
Old Salt Surf Reel #15 based on Penn #15
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03548_zps23twl0gb.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03548_zps23twl0gb.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03549_zpsyblpv0ss.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03549_zpsyblpv0ss.jpg.html)
Deep Sea Angler #20 Based on Penn #14
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03550_zpsjlpkirpn.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03550_zpsjlpkirpn.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03551_zpscxe4wmrh.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03551_zpscxe4wmrh.jpg.html)
And not a part of the #14 or #15 set is this King-Fisher Sea Side based on a Penn Sea Ford (not cleaned yet...taking my time with this one ::))
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03552_zpsb5bgldvv.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03552_zpsb5bgldvv.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/DSC03553_zpsrirsdutb.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/DSC03553_zpsrirsdutb.jpg.html)
I have a few J.C. Higgins reels I'll be adding soon to the thread...and hopefully more of the #14 and #15 trade reels because I flippin' love them.
Ok...please carry on!
Dan,
There is one more to add to your list Gus Walz. Penn made at least one reel marked Gus Walz, Tuna King, New York. The reel is a 1938 9/0 Senator.
He had a tackle shop on 3rd Ave. in New York.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/BAP1-5Scale/PENN%20PLUS%20OTHERS/GUS%20WALZ%202_zpsdbj5ju3q.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/BAP1-5Scale/PENN%20PLUS%20OTHERS/GUS%20WALZ_zpspsbmd5pb.jpg)
QuotePenn made at least one reel marked Gus Walz, Tuna King, New York. The reel is a 1938 9/0 Senator.
He had a tackle shop on 3rd Ave. in New York.
Brian, your Gus Walz is still the only one I have ever seen. Rare, Rare and Rare!!!
Dan, You have quite a nice collection there. I especially like the 3 pillar versions, such as the Deep Sea Angler #20. Lately I've seen several of these trade reels around.
Quote from: coastal_dan on August 09, 2016, 01:49:09 AM
George - Nice King-Fisher!
We'll see how nice when I disassemble it. The handle turns with the ease of a meat grinder. ::)
How bout a trade reel that still has the penn logo.......This reel resides in Rays collection. It is a small yardage long beach. Mike or Ray can fill us in on this rare Penn trade reel.
Brians 9/0 trade reel is definitely as rare as they get.
Penn made trade reels well into the 50's, and many smaller model Penns can be found with the JC Higgins (sears) logo.
YES!! Love this.
Brian - Amazing reel, I've never heard of Gus Walz - fantastic, learning something new :o
Ted - Any trade reel is certainly welcome! Very interesting.
I've been drooling over a J.C. Higgins 304-42170 (149 based reel) for a few months and I finally bought it for a fair price. Hopefully get some pictures up in the next couple days.
Having side plate molds made must have been a big deal and big expense. I wonder if each trade reel had completely separate molds or if there was some way to put a new medallion in an existing mold.
-steve
Ted,
The reels with the diamond on the tail plate were sold by The New York Hardware Trading Company . The design has also been seen on Ocean City made reels.
Ray
OC if memory serves me correctly, Penn had many different "plugs" that could be substituted in the mounding process where we would find the "Penn Patented" and model number on the head plate. Mike's book has some really good photos of the plugs. Just by changing the plug a whole new name can be applied to a basic Penn reel.... Bill
Bill,
Regarding your reference to Mike's Book .
This was one of Bruce Davis' photos from when he visited Penn more than 10 years ago. It shows many of the Plugs Penn used in making the Trade reels . Many were used on the #14 & #15 Penn reels.
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/bruce3_1.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/bruce3_1.jpg.html)
Ray
I bet the plugs are worth some dollars now.
Thank you brother Ray, that is what I was thinking of....hopefully this is the answer OC was looking for....Bill
I love that photo :o It has been my PC background for quite a while.
They also had some complete molds done as well I believe. Our amigo Ted had a very special 'mould' for a J.C. Higgins level wind and it was the complete left side plate, as far as I remember it did not have a plug.
If you are interested here is some 'light' reading, that I actually really enjoyed last night. It's only 60 pages or so. From this information I would say Penn used 'Flash Moulds' as the primary manufacturing process...easy to create, easy to clean and quick in the assembly process.
https://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/pdf-hell/article-moulding-bakelite.pdf
Quote from: Makule on August 08, 2016, 08:53:43 PM
What are "trade reels"?
Penn made "trade reels" from the beginning, when they themselves were a "no-name" brand, so if they could be associated with a familiar name it could help their sales. I often wondered how these trade reels may have ended up hurting Penn's bottom line when a person that wanted a Penn could get the same reel at half the cost (my guesstimate, may not be accurate) with a different name on it.... Hade the trade reels been unavailable would those people have purchased Penns at a higher price, or been sold on a cheaper, poorer-performing reel? I would imagine the Penn and the trade reel that represented it were never displayed on a shelf next to one-another, so it seems logical that the two linens of reels went after two different market segments.
So, you're the one that beat me on that King-Fisher, George? I couldn't go any more since some of my recent acquisitions inflated my Amex bill to disgusting proportions.
Glad it made it to the right persons hands. ;)
Nice trade reel collection, Dan... it's coming along nicely. Dan, where did you find the name of the King-Fisher "Sea Side"? Never new that's what it was called.
Brian, I've stared at that reel on your web page too many times... amongst so many others!
Sweet stuff guys,
Dom
Quote from: broadway on August 10, 2016, 06:41:04 PM
So, you're the one that beat me on that King-Fisher, George? I couldn't go any more since some of my recent acquisitions inflated my Amex bill to disgusting proportions.
Glad it made it to the right persons hands. ;)
Dom
Thank you, Dom. I was bidding on at least six unusual Penns in the last two weeks. Someone ::) beat me out of most of them. Luckily for my Discover bill which, to paraphrase you, is also expanding to disgusting proportions. ::) Did you get lucky on anything?
George
Dom - Thanks sir...the King-Fisher name was in 'The Book', name was determined from the Original box...a beautiful combination. Did you have an Abbey & Imbrie Dom? I feel like I remember somewhere that you did...feel like sharing a picture?
Quote from: Superhook on August 09, 2016, 11:55:57 PM
Ted,
The reels with the diamond on the tail plate were sold by The New York Hardware Trading Company . The design has also been seen on Ocean City made reels.
Ray
In addition to the diamond on the tailplate, My Ocean City reels have
Black Diamond Special and
New York Hardware Trading Company stamped on the reelfoot.
Do the Penn NYHTC reels have any other trade markings besides the diamond?
George
George,
The Back Diamond Special is the model name of your OC Reel. Mike has one of these in the OC box . http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=13054.60 Near bottom of Page.
The Penn reels only had the diamond design on the back plate only. No other reference to NYHTC . Never seen a Penn box for NYHTC reel.
Ray
By the 1950's some penns switched to having the logo on the tailplate, like the long beach and 109, which meant Penn had to make a tailplate mold for these trade reels. Here is a rare glimpse at a Penn/JC Higgins tailplate cavity mold and the exact reel that came from it. This reel is a Penn #9 disguised as a JC Higgins 304-42230. All Penn JC Higgins trade reels start with 304-
Quote from: Maxed Out on August 11, 2016, 01:26:24 AM
By the 1950's some penns switched to having the logo on the tailplate, like the long beach and 109, which meant Penn had to make a tailplate mold for these trade reels. Here is a rare glimpse at a Penn/JC Higgins tailplate cavity mold and the exact reel that came from it. This reel is a Penn #9 disguised as a JC Higgins 304-42230. All Penn JC Higgins trade reels start with 304-
This JC Higgins doesn't have any numbers under their name in the logo...but every piece on it is pure Penn. Even the part's numbers are stamped in the same locations as Penn parts.(like the handle and star) I wonder if it was made by Penn?
Holy crap! I just clicked on my photo and noticed the numbers on the bling ring...never even noticed those 'til now! :D Numbers are out of focus in enlarged pic...but read 314-42560.
Quote from: mo65 on August 11, 2016, 01:53:15 AM
Quote from: Maxed Out on August 11, 2016, 01:26:24 AM
By the 1950's some penns switched to having the logo on the tailplate, like the long beach and 109, which meant Penn had to make a tailplate mold for these trade reels. Here is a rare glimpse at a Penn/JC Higgins tailplate cavity mold and the exact reel that came from it. This reel is a Penn #9 disguised as a JC Higgins 304-42230. All Penn JC Higgins trade reels start with 304-
This JC Higgins doesn't have any numbers under their name in the logo...but every piece on it is pure Penn. Even the part's numbers are stamped in the same locations as Penn parts.(like the handle and star) I wonder if it was made by Penn?
That green JC Higgins reel was made by Lawrence. They were famous for their Penn look alike reels.
I'm sitting here drinking some Midnight Moon and 'reely' enjoying the amount of information that is coming together here...
Ted - Thanks a ton for posting your picture and the statement about the 304- corresponding with Penn...I find both of these crucial to this post!
To continue one step further, Mike C. was gracious enough to send me some information concerning J.C. Higgins/Penn 60 Long Beach that is shared below...to start another beautiful mold / reel pairing...take note at the part numbers that match Penn...
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20044%20-%20Copy_zpsv7nbwa33.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20044%20-%20Copy_zpsv7nbwa33.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20022%20-%20Copy_zpsroudte9l.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20022%20-%20Copy_zpsroudte9l.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20020%20-%20Copy_zpskuduzsty.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20020%20-%20Copy_zpskuduzsty.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20037%20-%20Copy_zpsrcgdhxwe.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20037%20-%20Copy_zpsrcgdhxwe.jpg.html)
And now onto some additional info concerning J.C. Higgins reel #'s as well as part lists...I found it very difficult to find any information like this...so Kudos again to Mike...he has a knack for acquiring the 'hard-to-come-by'.
Parts list and 'exploded' view of the J.C. Higgins based on the Penn #9
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/Exploded%20view%20of%20JC%20Higgins%20Levelwinds_zpswnmonyih.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/Exploded%20view%20of%20JC%20Higgins%20Levelwinds_zpswnmonyih.jpg.html)
A Partial Parts list with corresponding part numbers that match Penn. Take note of the Right Side plate line items...this looks to be the best way to see which of the J.C. Higgins reels corresponds with Penn reels (I've been dying to see a list like this...boom...night made).
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/Partial%20JC%20Higgins%20Parts%20List--1950s_zpsqakvlsyi.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/Partial%20JC%20Higgins%20Parts%20List--1950s_zpsqakvlsyi.jpg.html)
And a cover scan of similar document...
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/JC%20Higgins%20title%20page%20of%20obscure%20catalog%20fromt%20eh%201950s_zpsif7gbpj9.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/JC%20Higgins%20title%20page%20of%20obscure%20catalog%20fromt%20eh%201950s_zpsif7gbpj9.jpg.html)
20x Thank you's to Mike for sending me the info (and Ted for pointing the way) ;)
Last post of the night...promise.
Happy to have this in the case now, took a while, but if it was easy everybody would collect reels ::)
A J.C. Higgins 149 based reel...needs a little cleaning, but overall I'm happy with the initial look-over. From what I can find this may be the largest of the J.C. Higgins / Penn reels (especially after seeing the list above).
Enjoy...
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6303_zps19nhkpxq.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6303_zps19nhkpxq.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6304_zpsduyimsyk.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6304_zpsduyimsyk.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6305_zpsdox6r1d4.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6305_zpsdox6r1d4.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6307_zpsr8enlej3.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6307_zpsr8enlej3.jpg.html)
I'll post a few pictures of the #9 and #109 reels another night...
Thanks for reading!
I just realized that Mike had sent additional photos of the Mold for those that are curious...I'll post them this evening, I think you guys will really dig them :P
Quote from: sdlehr on August 10, 2016, 02:12:37 PM
I would imagine the Penn and the trade reel that represented it were never displayed on a shelf next to one-another, so it seems logical that the two lines of reels went after two different market segments.
I'd say you hit the nail on the head there Sid...as I clearly remember going to Sears as a kid and slobbering over the Higgins reels...but never saw those high dollar Penns outside the bait&tackle shacks.
Love that Higgins 149 Dan...cool reel!
Good stuff!
QuoteI just realized that Mike had sent additional photos of the Mold for those that are curious...I'll post them this evening, I think you guys will really dig them
Great post Dan!
In the 1950's, Sears was an iconic company in the USA. No doubt one of the most noted Department Stores in American History. They had many divisions and these divisions would publish their own catalogs as well as be part of the big catalog. Research into Sears publications may open a new world of information about vintage Penn Trade Reels. The Sears catalogs are a particular corner of Penn distribution that I have not touched on too often, nor have I seen much information about JC Higgins Saltwater Trade Reels in the public domain, so there is a lot of unearthed information sitting in some archive somewhere waiting to be opened.
I would think that there are some members here with old paper from JC Higgins. The old catalogs and or manuals may be a mix of fresh and saltwater styles from many different makers all wearing the JC Higgins aka Sears and Roebuck name tag. Maybe we can open a new vein of info by all contributing a small piece of what we have. It can create amazing results when bunches of small pieces of information are placed into a single pool!
And now for what you've all been waiting for....just kidding, haha.
I did find this extremely exciting though studying these pictures. ;)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20015%20-%20Copy_zpsyslnc9qy.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20015%20-%20Copy_zpsyslnc9qy.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20012%20-%20Copy_zpsu5bextil.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20012%20-%20Copy_zpsu5bextil.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20001%20-%20Copy_zpsf7gagx1i.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20001%20-%20Copy_zpsf7gagx1i.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20006%20-%20Copy_zps60lrgrko.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20006%20-%20Copy_zps60lrgrko.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20002%20-%20Copy_zpsclgxf7r9.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20002%20-%20Copy_zpsclgxf7r9.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20005%20-%20Copy_zpscxg5qeaj.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/1950s%20Penn%20%20aka%20JC%20Higgans%20Trade%20Reels%20info%20mold%20and%20box%20005%20-%20Copy_zpscxg5qeaj.jpg.html)
Too cool.
And scouting through another thread I found that Mike had posted these photos of a NYHTC Bridge City...sweet reel.
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/193420Penn20Bridge20City20with20Diamond20Trade20Reel20mark20on20tailplate2000420-20Copy2062420x20445_zpsagujddng.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/193420Penn20Bridge20City20with20Diamond20Trade20Reel20mark20on20tailplate2000420-20Copy2062420x20445_zpsagujddng.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/193420Penn20Bridge20City20with20Diamond20Trade20Reel20mark20on20tailplate2000720-20Copy2075020x20718_zps6pptlfe9.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/193420Penn20Bridge20City20with20Diamond20Trade20Reel20mark20on20tailplate2000720-20Copy2075020x20718_zps6pptlfe9.jpg.html)
QuoteCool info Mike, is it ok to assume a 149 with waffle click and no star is from 1939 ??
I would not call the New York Hardware Trading Company reel rare; but, they are really hard to find!
Some great info, pictures and reels have been accumulated last night and today...I'll sort through and prepare a nice big post this weekend. I hope some of you guys are enjoying this as much as I am...my wife may be tired of me saying 'babe, check this out!' 😜
QuoteDoes this fit in with this thread on Trade Reels? I accidentally erased the photos of it going back together and somewhat cleaned up. I like it for an interesting shelfie. Dominick
Sure it does. Maker is Horrocks and Ibbotson Co., Utica, New York. I believe these salt water trade reels were made in the 1950's.
Mike thanks for the info. I tried researching Shark with no success. since your post i did find similar reels made by Horrocks and Ibbotson Co. I don't know how you do it but thanks. Dominick
Neat reel Dom! I'd be interested in seeing a cleaned up photo! I hate to say this but, the intent for this thread is Penn trade reels. I only say this because there is SO MUCH info on the various trade reels that we would have one gigantic thread that would be difficult to navigate. We should definitely start other trade reel threads though! I hope that doesn't come across 'shmuckish'. 😬
Okay Dan, you are correct you did start a Penn Trade Reels, so I moved it. However, I don't know where it ended up. Dominick
Weird! I definitely would love to see the 'shelf' shot of that HI Shark, cool for sure.
Quote from: Dominick on August 15, 2016, 03:05:54 AM
Okay Dan, you are correct you did start a Penn Trade Reels, so I moved it. However, I don't know where it ended up. Dominick
Quote from: coastal_dan on August 15, 2016, 03:10:25 AM
Weird! I definitely would love to see the 'shelf' shot of that HI Shark, cool for sure.
I would love to see it, too. Dominick, your HI Shark reel would fit nicely in "Fishing Antiques and Collectibles".
QuoteMike thanks for the info. I tried researching Shark with no success. since your post i did find similar reels made by Horrocks and Ibbotson Co. I don't know how you do it but thanks. Dominick
I know this stuff because I have a Obsessive Compulsive Fishing Reel Disorder. I have been told it is incurable.
Could the Penn Seagate be considered a trade reel? To paraphrase one of our members, it is basically a Long Beach made to satisfy the rental reel customers. See the link below:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12463.msg123133#msg123133
George,
The Seagate was a Penn catalog listed reel.
What was not listed was in the different colours they are sometimes found . That can be said about many of the reels.
Ray
Quote from: Superhook on August 16, 2016, 04:41:59 AM
George,
The Seagate was a Penn catalog listed reel.
What was not listed was in the different colours they are sometimes found . That can be said about many of the reels.
Ray
Alrightee, I stand corrected. Thank you, Ray. Strange how Penn cataloged two names for the same reel. ???
Dan, in your initial post you listed Abbey & Imbrie reels. Were some of them made by Penn? Some of the examples I've seen closely resemble Horrocks & Ibbotson reels.
George
George ,
You are correct . The biggest difference would be the name on the Head plate.
Regarding Penn reels with the Abbey and Imbrie Logo on the Head plate.......they are very few and far between .
Ray
Here are a few of my trade reels...
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/Mobile%20Uploads/20160815_191807_zpshcu9o224.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160815_191807_zpshcu9o224.jpg.html)
A&I: Asbury, Palmetto, Surf King (boxed), Silver King (boxed), Biscayne.. J.C. Higgens: 3137, CalTuna: 2/0
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/Mobile%20Uploads/20160815_192049_zpswd1fwbbo.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160815_192049_zpswd1fwbbo.jpg.html)
Kingfisher: First Year SeaFord, First Year LongBeach
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/Mobile%20Uploads/20160815_193050_zpszgp2bshj.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160815_193050_zpszgp2bshj.jpg.html)
Lawrence: 295 (boxed) & H&I:420 Squid King
Awesome eye candy!
Quote from: George4741 on August 16, 2016, 04:58:27 AM
Strange how Penn cataloged two names for the same reel. ???
George
George, if you're talking about the Long Beach and the Sea Gate, the goal of the Sea Gate was to lower the price from the Long Beach price, but not the quality of the reel, so the '39 Sea Gate was a Long Beach with a wood handle (the LB's that year had torpedo handles). It was strictly a marketing ploy.
Sid
Sorry guys for not updating in the past few days, life has been a little nuts... and today is our 8 year anniversary ;) I have a mess of photos to upload but just need to get a chance to do it.
George - I listed the Abbey & Imbrie after seeing the Plug in the photo.
Brian (Ocean Reels) - If you read this can I post some of your photos of the LL Bean trade reels from your website?
Hope everyone is having a pleasant day.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Lawrence reels - that look so much like Penn - made by the Lawrence Tackle Manufacturing Co. - did they come about strictly after the Henze patents of the 1930's expired? I can't imagine Penn allowing such a close replica to be manufactured and sold if they could do anything to stop it.... because they do look Penn-like in almost every way.... so my guess is they couldn't do anything, and I'm presuming it was because the 16-yr patent period had expired.
Sid
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 16, 2016, 05:23:23 AM
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/Mobile%20Uploads/20160815_192049_zpswd1fwbbo.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160815_192049_zpswd1fwbbo.jpg.html)
Kingfisher: First Year SeaFord, First Year LongBeach
One of these is not as advertised :o ;)
Sid
Seriously some of my favorite photos of all time are the plug photos...I want to print them and hang them in our living room (wife is going to love it...promise ::))
Credit for the following picture goes to Bruce Davis per Ray (Superhook)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6334_zpsdp4yc0zf.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6334_zpsdp4yc0zf.jpg.html)
I was able to pick up a few and process a few trade reels over the past couple days...
Atlantic Ocean no 14.
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/FullSizeRender_zpsxb3jjley.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/FullSizeRender_zpsxb3jjley.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/FullSizeRender_1_zpstvuoup2h.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/FullSizeRender_1_zpstvuoup2h.jpg.html)
J.C. Higgins Based on a 9M (still need to clean this one)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6329_zpsz1bdng1h.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6329_zpsz1bdng1h.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6328_zpsumz3jxbt.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6328_zpsumz3jxbt.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6332_zps9nrj7gvm.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6332_zps9nrj7gvm.jpg.html)
J.C. Higgins Based on a 109
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6425_zpspvi0jhwe.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6425_zpspvi0jhwe.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6428_zps9bhty6lr.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6428_zps9bhty6lr.jpg.html)
Also...
I've been scouring old Sears catalogs for anything pertaining to J.C. Higgins reels and everything I've found so far has been based on the freshwater gear...I haven't found documention on Penn or any other saltwater trade reel for that matter...always love a good challenge though ;)
Quote from: sdlehr on August 16, 2016, 11:25:26 PM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 16, 2016, 05:23:23 AM
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/Mobile%20Uploads/20160815_192049_zpswd1fwbbo.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160815_192049_zpswd1fwbbo.jpg.html)
Kingfisher: First Year SeaFord, First Year LongBeach
One of these is not as advertised :o ;)
Sid
Very true... it is an early.. year correct mix match of parts.. Likely a lb tailplate on a seaford reel. The other is correct.
Good eye.. or memory ;) Sid
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 17, 2016, 02:43:21 AM
Very true... it is an early.. year correct mix match of parts.. Likely a lb tailplate on a seaford reel. The other is correct.
Good eye.. or memory ;) Sid
Looking at that round gear box on the reel on the right, it can't be a Sea Gate or a Long Beach. The one on the left could be either; I can't read the logos....
Sid
Sid, the Sea Gate and the Long Beach are the same reel. Penn lowered the price of the Long Beach by creating the Sea Gate to attact commercial buyers. The difference between the reel models was the handle on the first year Sea Gate. The following Sea Gate's were different from the Long Beach because of the finish process used on the chrome plating. They are essentially the same reel.
Quote from: Penn Chronology on August 17, 2016, 04:17:31 PM
Sid, the Sea Gate and the Long Beach are the same reel.
That's why I said the one pictured on the left could be either the Sea Gate or the Long Beach, but the one on the right with the round gear box cannot be either. Oh, I see now, I originally misunderstood John. I get it now. Thanks. Sorry for the confusion.
Sid
I spoke with Brain (Oceanreels) after surfing his awesome website and he gave permission for sharing some of his photos. All photos in this particular post are his reels. The L.L. Bean 249 is especially droolworthy to me ::). The Baker Beach's are stunning as well....and the Shultz Senator....I could go on...
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6371_zps595apzsk.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6371_zps595apzsk.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6370_zpsiuwmtieg.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6370_zpsiuwmtieg.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6367_zpsdwzxiq4u.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6367_zpsdwzxiq4u.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6368_zpsvqlr4d6a.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6368_zpsvqlr4d6a.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6365_zpsog0qpube.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6365_zpsog0qpube.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6363_zpsmltrucqk.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6363_zpsmltrucqk.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6362_zpsmo64ko0t.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6362_zpsmo64ko0t.jpg.html)
Enjoy and thanks Brian for sharing the photos ;D
This thread has allowed me to talk to some amazing individuals. This 'sport' of collecting is mind boggling in its commodore and willingness to SHARE information...I flippin' love it 😀 With that said, I present to you an Abbey & Imbrie / Penn; this reel is owned by Eric Kramer, the photo credit goes to him, thanks for allowing me to share!
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps0mg2dm7l.jpeg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps0mg2dm7l.jpeg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpstu3i6ku8.png) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpstu3i6ku8.png.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsqvy4xski.jpeg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsqvy4xski.jpeg.html)
So Dan, an A&I 165 was equivalent to the Long Beach 65?
Sid
QuoteSo Dan, an A&I 165 was equivalent to the Long Beach 65?
Sid
That may be true on Tuesday; but, by Thursday the A&I 165 could be Pflueger Templar!
I've only heard of that reel, but never seen it (the A&I). Thanks for showing, Dan. That box is awesome!
Brian has the coolest, toughest to find, one of a kind, most bad to the bone Penn reels ever... and he knows how stuff!
Dom
Quote from: broadway on August 23, 2016, 12:35:42 AM
I've only heard of that reel, but never seen it (the A&I). Thanks for showing, Dan. That box is awesome!
Brian has the coolest, toughest to find, one of a kind, most bad to the bone Penn reels ever... and he knows how stuff!
Dom
X2
Getting this back rolling...I added this Penn 66 J.C. Higgins Trade reel to the group the other day...currently torn down and soaking.
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_7745_zpseefb7rzh.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_7745_zpseefb7rzh.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_7754_zpsn6cg0qna.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_7754_zpsn6cg0qna.jpg.html)
A few trade reel boxes from the auction site...Not Mine, but great for reference...
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/aecea2f2-6bb9-4019-ab45-923306afad15_zpsagjpftij.png) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/aecea2f2-6bb9-4019-ab45-923306afad15_zpsagjpftij.png.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/82487ebf-41ea-4a12-8415-3b4c89f142bd_zpsrwsnrmn8.png) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/82487ebf-41ea-4a12-8415-3b4c89f142bd_zpsrwsnrmn8.png.html)
And a fantastic listing from Eric on the A & I Trade reel. Looks like 3x available models...
. (http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/IMG_6870_zpsc5m7bw2k.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/IMG_6870_zpsc5m7bw2k.jpg.html)
Interesting how Abbey & Imbrie simply added a "1" to the stock Penn Model Number.
Abbey and Imbrie also put their name on Julius Vom Hofe reels. Not to difficult to figure out because they left the Julius Vom Hofe patent dates and the handle knob is distinctive.
-steve
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/JVH1.jpg)
side note: Julius Vom Hofe was the less flamboyant older brother of Edward Vom Hofe and heir to the Fredrick Vom Hofe reel company.
Cleaned up! Not perfect, but patina is starting to grow on me...battle scares...they say "hey boy, do I have some stories for you!"
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/FullSizeRender_3_zpsekp8zogu.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/FullSizeRender_3_zpsekp8zogu.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/FullSizeRender_2_zpsfmflplnn.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/FullSizeRender_2_zpsfmflplnn.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/FullSizeRender_1%202_zpsc4glpuhj.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/FullSizeRender_1%202_zpsc4glpuhj.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/FullSizeRender%202_zpsff7zy2ms.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/FullSizeRender%202_zpsff7zy2ms.jpg.html)
It cleaned up nice Dan...love those old Higgins reels. 8)
Looks nice, that red and yellow knob is a real stand-out
There's nothing wrong with honest wear and character. At least that's what I keep telling myself.
-steve
QuoteCleaned up! Not perfect, but patina is starting to grow on me...battle scares...they say "hey boy, do I have some stories for you!"
Patina makes a collectible interesting. It was made to be used. Mint is always desirable. But there is nothing wrong with Patina.... Nice job bring the old Sears reel back. It looks like it worked hard and deserves a good retirement............<:O)
Thanks all...
Mike - I have 4x of the 11x 304. Higgins models. These are fun to hunt for...I do have some duplicates but the search continues!
QuoteMike - I have 4x of the 11x 304. Higgins models. These are fun to hunt for...I do have some duplicates but the search continues!
The hunt is what it is all about.
:o !NEWSFLASH! Mo joins Trade Reel Guild :o
Hot dog! Finally found a decent deal on a Trade Reel...it's been tough out there. This Surf Angler was dry as the desert sand, just look at the bearing in the first photo. The handle knob had a smear of some cheap latex paint on it, and the second pic shows how my pocket knife scratched it right off. The last two shots are the finished project. This one has that "to die for" patina...that soft copper glow...the bronze showing through paper thin nickle. 8)
You did a great job detailing that reel Mo. Now you'll be forever hooked on those trade reels. I know the feeling well. :D :D :D
Sweet! Be careful...these little guys are addicting...
Thanks guys. I can't believe all this time I thought those brown specks on these reel's handle knobs were the wood peeking through scuffs. Not at all! This knob is a plastic. The "pull out" free spool is kinda cool too. 8)
QuoteThanks guys. I can't believe all this time I thought those brown specks on these reel's handle knobs were the wood peeking through scuffs. Not at all! This knob is a plastic. The "pull out" free spool is kinda cool too. Cool
Those early non-wood knobs are Hard Rubber, not plastic. They are a natural rubber product, the same material used on early Bowling Balls.
Beautiful save on that old Trade Reel. You are now officially addicted to reel collecting.
Here is a Schultz, which is a re-badged Penn LB60.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010767_zpsro841fx7.jpg)
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010771_zps8yoftnai.jpg)
Quote from: coastal_dan on November 18, 2016, 02:09:24 AM
Cleaned up! Not perfect, but patina is starting to grow on me...battle scares...they say "hey boy, do I have some stories for you!"
I couldn't have said it better. Here is the Schultz cleaned up with all of the original parts.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010772_zpsrdlfilqy.jpg)
Quote from: coastal_dan on December 19, 2016, 04:56:53 PM
Sweet! Be careful...these little guys are addicting...
No kidding! I've also added a JC Higgins (another LB60) and an Atlantic 14 to my collection. I like the size of these reels and they also fit nicely into my Long Beach collection.
George
George, I have a handle like that on one of my LB's, I think that particular handle dates the reel to '38, but I'm not sure, but that handle is in great shape. Hopefully, Mike will chime in. I may be totally wrong about the year....
Sid
Very nice George! I'd like to get a Schultz at some point, I've bid on a few and always outbid..sometimes only by a buck or two :'(
I have a soft spot for the J.C. Higgins Reels, three left to go in my little set. I also love that Sears/J.C. Higgins created some neat fishing accessories from that time as well such as fighting belts, marketing/selling kits and literature, hooks, leader etc...I think they really add to a collection. I'll see if I can get a photo at some point.
Cool reel. I too have been trying to aquire one. I particularly like Brian's early 9/0 :)
John
Quote from: sdlehr on June 27, 2017, 06:27:07 PM
I think that particular handle dates the reel to '38.
My '38 LB has that handle too guys...Mike was who identified it for me. Cool reel George! 8)
George, what does the left side of that reel look like? I'm guessing plain, the picture plates began either late 38 or early 39, I believe, so this could have either. But you didn't show it, so I'm guessing it's plain :) I'm assuming Penn changed the left plate of the trade reels the same year they changed the plate of the Penn-branded reels.
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on June 27, 2017, 09:44:53 PM
George, what does the left side of that reel look like? I'm guessing plain, the picture plates began either late 38 or early 39, I believe, so this could have either. But you didn't show it, so I'm guessing it's plain :) I'm assuming Penn changed the left plate of the trade reels the same year they changed the plate of the Penn-branded reels.
Sid
Here it is:
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010775_zps0brgr2vc.jpg)
Quote from: Tightlines666 on June 27, 2017, 06:52:39 PM
Cool reel. I too have been trying to aquire one. I particularly like Brian's early 9/0 :)
John
I also particularly like his 9/0. I'll bet it is as rare as hens teeth.
Quote from: coastal_dan on June 27, 2017, 06:29:59 PM
I have a soft spot for the J.C. Higgins Reels, three left to go in my little set. I also love that Sears/J.C. Higgins created some neat fishing accessories from that time as well such as fighting belts, marketing/selling kits and literature, hooks, leader etc...I think they really add to a collection. I'll see if I can get a photo at some point.
I'm also on the hunt for more of them. ;D
Hehe, wrong again. Nice picture plate! At least I didn't ask if it had a waffle clicker....
QuoteGeorge, I have a handle like that on one of my LB's, I think that particular handle dates the reel to '38, but I'm not sure, but that handle is in great shape. Hopefully, Mike will chime in. I may be totally wrong about the year....
That could be a 1938 handle. Hard to exactly date the reel by a handle, especially a Trade Reel. By 1939, the handles were torpedo styles; but, concerning Trade
Reels, like this Schultz, that rule might not hold true.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4285/35591520745_60a36ce5ec.jpg)
J.C. Higgins (304.XXXXX Only) on the second shelf and the #14 and #15 Reels on the bottom. These are fun! (https://flic.kr/p/We6R8p)
Whoa!! slow down there. Someone has kept busy ;D.
Nice work Dan!
That is quite the grouping you have amassed there!
Maybe you should try to ad a few OC trade reels as well?
John
Thanks John and Sal.
John - I've thought about it...but my case is full and honestly I'm just interested in doing the Penn, and associates, collecting for now. As soon as I open up to more brands I'll be in trouble (with the wife :o)
That's why I force myself to look away on the subject of Newells lol.
I'm glad to hear that case is full...maybe now I can nab a few trade reels cheap! HA!!! Just kiddin' bud...collection looks fantastic! 8)
Quote from: mo65 on June 28, 2017, 05:42:52 PM
I'm glad to hear that case is full...maybe now I can nab a few trade reels cheap! HA!!! Just kiddin' bud...collection looks fantastic! 8)
Mo, you'll be competing with me for those Higgins. ;D
Dan, nice collection, and you're not helping with my reel addiction. ::)
Nice collection,,, :D
Dan, you have some fantastic jc Higgins items in your display....besides the sweet reels. Left to right I see a 109, #9, 180, surfmaster, 209, lb60, lb66, & 49. Just couple more and you'll have the whole set !!
I love the fighting belt. Any chance we can get a better look at it ??
-Ted
Dan is one of the most enthusiastic collectors I know. His passion is evident through his collection, and boy, what a collection it has become.
Keep it up, Dan!
Thanks for showing,
Dom
Surely :D Also, just for fun a couple other cool little items that I've got for the brand. I have a few coolers and some other items as well, you can't show everything ;)
I hunted for one of these belts...I've seen only three for-sale and the two others were extremely 'used'. This one looks to be barely used, maybe a store model? I'm thinking early 1950's with the style of the artwork, but I've scoured old Sears catalogs and no mention of them ???
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4077/35213209130_650fa9286e.jpg)
[url=https://flic.kr/p/VDEU8f](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4239/35213208660_6c0342f1fb.jpg)
[url=https://flic.kr/p/VDEU6m](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4150/35213208550_e0cc264607.jpg)
[url=https://flic.kr/p/VDEUdL](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4250/35213208980_a795da669d.jpg)
And for you Cali people ;D
[url=https://flic.kr/p/VDEU4N](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4162/35213208460_4fca95603c.jpg)
Interesting that the J.C. Higgins tackle selector is the same size as the Penn version...different material though...
[url=https://flic.kr/p/VDETWJ](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4282/35213208050_1e3060e546.jpg)
[url=https://flic.kr/p/VDETTY](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4168/35213207890_2ca96ebb72.jpg)
Sorry for so many pictures...but I think we all have this problem/obsession ::)
(https://flic.kr/p/VDEUgm)
Going to add this as I was tickled to find it...another size fighting belt! Ok, now back to reels, haha!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4323/35868385470_cce1696821_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WDyRn9)
I've a question...or two, about the "trade reels". First off, I picked up a "#25 Surf Angler 250yds" on E bay.....long way from "pristine", but the idea of the "pull out the handle for free spool" really got my juices flowing. First question....was "Surf Angler" a "chain store" brand (Wards, Western Auto, etc.), or was it meant to be sold in Mom & Pop hardware stores, vs. regular "Tackle Shops" ? Second question....What "Penn Logoed" reel does this compare to ? I have cleaned it up...a bit....lubed it, and plan on testing it out on the river, before I put it on the shelf.....with the other old Penns that have been following me home ! Thanks !!
Hi Crow,
The "Surf Angler" is modeled after the Penn #15. It was like the other trade reels - given another name, perhaps chosen by the company selling the reel. Edward K Tryon's Kingfisher brand, Sears' J.C.Higgins, etc., all were reselling rebranded reels from Penn. I have wondered how much these reels cut into Penn's profits... it's the age-old idea of cutting the price and making up the difference in sales volume... it worked for the trade companies, not sure how well it ended up working for Penn.
Quote from: sdlehr on August 23, 2017, 03:42:12 PM
Hi Crow,
The "Surf Angler" is modeled after the Penn #15. It was like the other trade reels - given another name, perhaps chosen by the company selling the reel. Edward K Tryon's Kingfisher brand, Sears' J.C.Higgins, etc., all were reselling rebranded reels from Penn. I have wondered how much these reels cut into Penn's profits... it's the age-old idea of cutting the price and making up the difference in sales volume... it worked for the trade companies, not sure how well it ended up working for Penn.
Good explanation and points Sid.
I would ad that it must have worked out great for Penn given the periods, and numbers of trade reels produced as well as the overall sucess of the company. I think early trade accounts such as Schultz, and Tryon (Kingfisher) will likely critical in providing needed startup capital for tooling, and production-related costs. Later accounts, such as J.C. Higgens, may have been less crucial to the company. It seems like, mostly lower cost reel were offered here. So, the name of the game must have been, as you say , the ability to fill larger orders, and expand markets. I wonder if this was of greater profitability for Penn or Sears? Sears certainly overcomplicated the brand by remembering the reel models and parts numbers, in a mostly non-sensical fashion, I might ad. Trade accounts seemed to have played a more significant role in the company's early history.
John
Back in the day, who would have paid full price for a Penn if they could get the same reel with a different name for 1/2-2/3 the price (I pulled those fractions out of thin air, but I think they are probably close)? I presume Penn considered this and took pains to prevent their trade reels from being displayed side by side with their own brand, but I do not really know this to be fact. It would've been to Sears' advantage to display them together, I don't really know if Penn dealt with this or not.
Thanks for the info ! I have a #15 coming (e bay) , so I can make a close comparison. I would suppose, that in the time frame these reels were offered , with the depression, the idea of a fisherman saving a buck...or two...on a reel was a big thing. And, if Penn was putting their "Penn Named" reels in the tackle stores, the Tackle Stores, themselves wouldn't have liked having the hardware store, down the street selling "Penn Reels".....but "Surf Angler"...even tho it was the same reel....didn't bother them as much...after all, it wasn't a 'Penn", just a "cheap imitation"(at least that's what they told their customers, I'll bet !). I suppose Penn, themselves felt it was better to sell "unbranded"...and make $.50 per, rather than the $1.00 profit on their "branded" reel, just to keep Pflueger, Ocean City,and the other makers from getting ALL the "trade" business. As you said....volume sales make for cheaper production costs !
Another question.....Did Penn do any "war work" ? I know a great many companies either switched completely to producing war products, or, devoted most of their capacity to the war effort. Bomb sights, artillery fuses, aircraft parts, ...whatever.....were a big deal in the early 40's.
http://www.whitefishpress.com/bookdetail.asp?book=190 (http://www.whitefishpress.com/bookdetail.asp?book=190)
Apparently, no one knows exactly what they were doing during the war years. Mike says "documentation is elusive".
-steve
Quote from: Crow on August 23, 2017, 10:45:23 PM
I have a #15 coming (e bay) , so I can make a close comparison.
What you'll find is that they are absolutely identical down to the very last detail except for the name on the head plate...
.... and you would think that by now, some 75+ years after the war, we would be able to know what was manufactured in the Penn plant during the war. If Mike hasn't been able to find out, it must be that none of the original Penn employees are still around from those days... which is understandable.... the youngest would be around 90-ish.
Quoteand you would think that by now, some 75+ years after the war, we would be able to know what was manufactured in the Penn plant during the war. If Mike hasn't been able to find out, it must be that none of the original Penn employees are still around from those days... which is understandable.... the youngest would be around 90-ish.
I will ask someone that may know more than we do about war production. I have to do it with snail mail, so an answer could be down the road or not.
War production was so secret that businesses that were manufacturing for the government sometimes did not know what they were making. They build an item or part to a particular spec; but, they very often did not know what the item did. One maker of war products was Frank Perez, the maker of the beautiful Perez reels. He was given a contract to manufacture five items, the government one used one of the items, the other four were fake. He never knew which of the five items was the real one.
Very interesting Mike - Thanks for that.
My "#15" arrived today, and, as you said.....they are sisters! Except for a "filed down" foot (probably to fit a smaller reel seat), and a different "badge"...samo-samo. They even both have the brownish "fleck" in the knob material ( I thought it was paint spatter , until I saw that both had it !).
War time production....and "Patriotism "has always interested me.....I worked (32 years) at a local "Steel & Wire" mill, and the old signs, from "back in the day" were still posted ( We Can Do It !, etc.)It's a shame it takes something like a World War, to get the whole country "heading in the right direction, and working together"!
I bought a model 15 to get the full spool of unused cuttyhunk line and to see how that clutch works. Pull the handle out to disengage. It must not have gone over too well because the model was only around for a few years.
-steve
Well, it IS rather "cumbersome", but, it works ! I did fish with the "Surf Angler" last night(maybe 20 casts), and by the time I put it up, and "fished modern", I was getting sort of used to it ! LOL !
Quote from: oc1 on August 25, 2017, 08:41:31 PMIt must not have gone over too well because the model was only around for a few years.
-steve
Wasn't there a letter from Pflueger to Penn about this clutch mechanism? Pflueger threatened Penn and Otto Henze's response was to discontinue this mechanism in favor of the eccentric clutch that we have come to know and love.... probably not so much as a result of the threat as much as the superior design.... I think this story is outlined in Mike's blue book... pretty sure I'm remembering it correctly. If not, Mike will be along late tonight :)
QuoteWasn't there a letter from Pflueger to Penn about this clutch mechanism? Pflueger threatened Penn and Otto Henze's response was to discontinue this mechanism in favor of the eccentric clutch that we have come to know and love.... probably not so much as a result of the threat as much as the superior design.... I think this story is outlined in Mike's blue book... pretty sure I'm remembering it correctly. If not, Mike will be along late tonight Smiley
Yes there was such a story. Pflueger was nasty when it came to law suits. They were a old, really big company that probably had lawyers on retainer. They accused many companies of Patent Infringement just to cause trouble. The case against Penn was dropped and a disclaimer was placed on the patent in Penn's favor.
That was the part of the story I forgot, Henze actually owned the patent! He would've won any suit but discontinued the mechanism voluntarily because he had devised a better one! That Otto was a shrewd dude.
If I've got this story right, couldn't Henze have sued Pflueger if he had wanted to?
And from reading the "corporate history" on the Penn Reels website, his wife must have been a very shrewd one, too !
Yes, Martha was a fisher and took over the company when Otto passed, I think it was '48. We owe her a debt of gratitude as well, even though Otto gets most of the glory! I wonder if they were married in the early 30's when Otto was founding Penn (and probably poor and starving).
I told of how I picked up a 1933 Kingfisher Long Beach in the "Penn Reels Just as You Find Them" thread a few weeks ago while I was in Cleveland. I'm finally getting around to posting before and after pics here. Here it is, in as found condition
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_15180_16_12_17_8_33_49_22834820.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=22835)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_15180_16_12_17_8_33_49_228331228.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=22834)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_15180_16_12_17_8_33_38_228282326.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=22830)
After the cleanup
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_15180_16_12_17_8_33_38_22828768.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=22829)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_15180_16_12_17_8_33_44_228302293.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=22831)
The clutch springs in this reel are different than any I've seen in a Penn reel before. Those from this reel are on the bottom, the usual ones on top
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_15180_16_12_17_9_02_58_22836666.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=22837)
Awesome Job on that Kingfisher Sid! It's not very common to find a 3 posted LB Kingfisher and one in the current condition would fetch a good price... Shelf it!
Those clutch springs are either totally spent original Penn springs or someone opened up the springs a bit because they were too compressed.
Thanks for posting your rescue,
Dom
I cleaned up nicely Sid. The springs have the same number of wraps. The ends are the same diameter as original but they flare out in the middle. I think Dom hit it. User modified.
-steve
I still contend that if those springs were going to compress and lose their springiness they would have in the decades the reel sat unopened waiting for me to find it. They didn't. I think they came from the factory in that style in '33 and were deemed insufficient somehow, or Henz just found a cheaper spring elsewhere so we don't see them often. They are of a smaller gauge wire if you look closely enough.
Great clean up Sid...the reel looks fantastic! 8)
Very nice job.
Thanks guys. Brian, Ray, Mike, anyone else, any insight on the clutch springs? I could take my micrometer to the springs, I bet they're 15-20% thinner gauge than the standard spring. I think they had to be made longer when made of the thinner gauge wire to provide the same amount of spring as those we consider standard today.
Quote from: sdlehr on December 17, 2017, 04:32:11 PM
I could take my micrometer to the springs, I bet they're 15-20% thinner gauge than the standard spring. I think they had to be made longer when made of the thinner gauge wire to provide the same amount of spring as those we consider standard today.
Sid, I have an old 30s Bayhead, and I remember while restoring it I noticed the clutch springs were thinner and longer than what I normally see. 8)
Nice job Sid. Love seeing these old gals brought back...
My son picked up this reel at second hand shop in Philpsburg NJ for $2.00. Is it a Penn trade reel and if so is it pre 1939. The cross bars & spool seem to be made of German silver.
Great find !
Sid,
Recently I have found a few of those thin springs in LB's and Bayheads so far... maybe I wasn't being observant enough for the past couple hundred vintage reels. :o
I've made a few more observations that I will explain shortly. Having a 2 year old limits sleep and typing time, but what fun it is!
Good eye,
Dom
QuoteThanks guys. Brian, Ray, Mike, anyone else, any insight on the clutch springs?
Sid, I believe your springs are simply pulled during a rebuild. The gauge of the wire may be lighter; but, that could simply be that the springs came from more than one vender. Here is a picture of a Penn Model K, the springs look like any other yoke spring.
Thanks, Dom and Mike. Dom, let us know your findings when Jack allows.
This is a L.L. Bean 249 from 1942. You seldom see the reel. Has anyone seen this box before? It looks like Penn made the reels with the L.L. Bean logo on them and sent the reels in the standard box to them. They then would add their tape to the boxes.
Wow!
:o :o :o
I think avid Penn collectors would agree that that box qualifies as 'rare'.
John
Hi all,
I am seeking information on Abbey & Imbrie /Penn trade reels - specifically, what years did Penn produce these reels? The A&I logo on the front would appear to be in the 1939 style - were these reels produced into the '40's?
Any info would be reely appreciated.
Thank you
Martin
I don't think I've ever seen an A & I/Penn trade reel.....
They did indeed. I've seen two AI trade reels and heard of one other. I'm not sure of the answer but my guess would be by the war they were done making them reels but it's tough because there haven't been many unearthed.
Dom
Thanks for the replies - there is a segment on A&I reels on page 5 of this thread - with 2 photo's of E Kramer's A&I 165 reel. I have just acquired an A&I 166/Penn LB66 reel but it is a bit of a frankenreel - with a '38 style handle, and some numbered parts internally!!
I want to replace all the wrong parts with era correct parts, hence my interest in production times.
The reel is being cleaned at the moment - I will (hopefully) post photo's in due course.
Martin
Here's the latest addition to my trade reel stable, it's a J.C. Higgins LB66. Hey Ted...does this one look familiar? 8)
Hi MO,
That's a nice looking reel
Congrats on your purchase.......
Col
That reel looks almost new, the handle knob has a nice pattern too. Nice one!
Abbey & Imbrie even published the use of Penn reels as Trade reels. They are very hard to find but do exist out there somewhere. This catalog cull is representing the Penn Long Beach 65, 66 & 67. So that would be both the standard Long Beach frame and the large Long Beach frame. I am sure there are other models using the Abbey & Imbrie name. The production had to be very small all. This cull is taken from a 1940 Horricks & Ibbotson catalog.
Hi Everyone, Time to get this interesting thread going again.
SO, I made an impulse purchase, and don't really know enough about what I have.
Some of the photo's here have been photobucket blocked, which makes it a tad hard to research.
Basically, what have I got here ?
There are two sets of numbers, both on stickers, No 4088 and a Tyron one,K4083 ( hopefully the photo shot makes it clear. )
I guess really, would or is there anyway of knowing what brand reel would this box have been used for, maybe that's a bit of a stretch , as I do realise that Penn was not the only reel that Tyron used, for "trade" reels, so to speak.
It would be nice if my 33 kingfisher 300 yd ( seaford) was a match or a fit for the era, perhaps the numbers hold some significance.
I like the box regardless, didn't pay a kings ransom for it, it will require a wee bit of gusset strengthening, but over all as a shelfy, it's fine.
Any info would be appreciated
Col
QuoteSO, I made an impulse purchase, and don't really know enough about what I have.
Some of the photo's here have been photobucket blocked, which makes it a tad hard to research.
Basically, what have I got here ?
There are two sets of numbers, both on stickers, No 4088 and a Tyron one,K4083 ( hopefully the photo shot makes it clear. )
I guess really, would or is there anyway of knowing what brand reel would this box have been used for, maybe that's a bit of a stretch , as I do realise that Penn was not the only reel that Tyron used, for "trade" reels, so to speak.
It would be nice if my 33 kingfisher 300 yd ( seaford) was a match or a fit for the era, perhaps the numbers hold some significance.
I like the box regardless, didn't pay a kings ransom for it, it will require a wee bit of gusset strengthening, but over all as a shelfy, it's fine.
Any info would be appreciated
Tough question. You would need a Tryon catalog or maybe find a collector with the same box that has the reel in it to absolutely know what model belongs in the box. These old Trade Reel boxes may have been used for reels from different makers. A Penn or an Ocean City might use the same model number. I think the best way to find out is to look at other collectors collections. Maybe a package using this box is out there. Interesting quest....... I do not believe there are two numbers on the label. Looks to me like there is a part of the number missing on the sticker. I think both numbers are 4088.
I know that Tryon Model # 4047 is a 1933 Penn Sea Ford, that does not solve anything but it gives a feel that the Number on your box is in the vein of Penn and not too far off from a known unit.
Now you have digging. Here is a cull from a November, 1933 Penn Ledger page. Look at how close your box number is getting!
The other two pages are Dec., 1934 orders to Penn. It seems that the 1933 numbers relate closer to your box.
Hi Mike, Thank you for your response,
And, good eye Sir. I grabbed a magnifying glass and exactly as you suspected, there is a piece missing of the sticker, right thru
that part that then made it look like a 3, rather than the 8 that it is.
I did think the numbers may be the key, but had wasn't sure.
That does give me something to go on an and hopefully that number will turn up with a bit of research.
At the minute, I shall pop that on the shelf ( soon to be built) along with my other Penn trade reels and continue on.
Just cleaning up a 300 yd kingfisher 3 poster, which looks like a seaford, koph clutch, no JK marking, ( apart from the number 1 on one plate)
Now that would have been just too easy for that one to be a match with the box ;D
Thanks Mike, you've pointed me in the right direction.....
Col
but, didn't Ocean City make a Kingfisher reel about that size? Could the Tryon number be just that; an in-house numbering system that included reels from more than one manufacturer?
-steve
Quotebut, didn't Ocean City make a Kingfisher reel about that size?
-steve
Probably but not as common as the Penn connection. Ocean City was with everyone. I do not believe they used Tryon as much as others. The history of OC goes back to a corporate merger. The original company that was selling Ocean City reels was named Moskowitz and Herbach. They were a Trade Reel company themselves with a massive catalog. That basically kept Ocean City with the M and H group and the Montague group much more than Kingfisher. I know there are some Ocean City trade reels with the Kingfisher logo, but not too many.
Oh Wow Mike, that's an awesome piece of history you have there.
I popped the question up on the Penn facebook page as well, seeing if anyone has one.
It will be interesting to see how many are flushed out.
I need to study what you put up......
Thank you
Col
Mike, you probably already new this, but the numbers ending with 8, seem to be for the 300 yd models.
And numbers ending with 7, for the 250 yard versions, Tyrons in house system of sorts.
But your right, the numbers are all around my 4088 number, So close Mike....
It's great reading old information like this, awesome !!!
Col
QuoteOh Wow Mike, that's an awesome piece of history you have there.
I popped the question up on the Penn facebook page as well, seeing if anyone has one.
It will be interesting to see how many are flushed out.
I need to study what you put up......
That's good. Eric may be able to help.
QuoteOh Wow Mike, that's an awesome piece of history you have there.
I popped the question up on the Penn facebook page as well, seeing if anyone has one.
It will be interesting to see how many are flushed out.
The ledger pages were salvaged from a Penn dumpster around 2003. Sad to say, but tons of history went into the Philadelphia Incinerator.
Thank you again Mike,
How good is this !!! Seriously ! Trying to put together information from a puzzle really.
Kind of wonder how your sanity was kept mike, with the books you wrote, I can now appreciate the time that it must have taken you to
sift through all the information.........
We are fortunate indeed........
And yes, that is sad to have lost so much documentation, But in another way, we are lucky with what has been preserved...
Col
Interesting documents.
With the numbers 4097 & 4098 and down to 4017 & 4018, one would presume we are talking about 10 models using this numbering system, in the 4 range.
( assumption only )
I couldn't really read some of the names next to the numbers, maybe the hand writing, thought I saw Pacific etc or Atlantic ?
But a great piece of history for sure.
Col
Col, nice clean box ya got there. Congrats on the find.
Mike, great knowledge and provenance. Thanks for sharing that!
Being in a collector I check Ebay about 10 times a day. I see way more OC kingfishers than Penn Kingfishers. I assume the box is a Penn kingfisher and believe it may go to a Coronado kingfisher but not positive.
Good luck on your search,
Dom
Thanks Dom. That would be a nice provenance to get if it was for a Coronado.
Hopefully with a bit of research I can identify which reel belongs to it, all part of the fun I guess.
Cheers
Col
QuoteKind of wonder how your sanity was kept mike,
It was not.
QuoteBeing in a collector I check Ebay about 10 times a day. I see way more OC kingfishers than Penn Kingfishers.
I find that interesting. I always felt there were more Penn Kingfishers than OC's. ----------------------------------------------I need Ray---------------------------------------he was my eyes on eBay..........................................
There's a kingfisher on eBay Australia right know
Kim
We all need Ray, Mike...He was a Master!
Dom
QuoteThere's a kingfisher on eBay Australia right know
Kim
The Aussie Kingfisher on eBay now is one of Ray's reels.. There is a trick here. That is not a Penn. I believe it is a Yale reel.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Kingfisher-3-Bar-no-box-Vintage-Collectors-Ref-R997/264516524500?hash=item3d9669d9d4:g:qsoAAOSwpyBdootP
QuoteWe all need Ray, Mike...He was a Master!
For sure!
I thought I would add to my original post, re the Kingfisher box with numbers that didn't correspond to the ledger that mike put up for 33 tryon trade sales.How ever, I think I did make some progress.
The original state, had two stickers with the numbers 4088, but under close investagation, the top number was actually a sticker like the one on the side.
So I very carefully, removed the top sticker ( still in one piece after removel ) and underneath, was, I believe the boxes original number 4058.
So, with the new number 4058, there was reference to this exact number, in the 33 ledger sales, to Tyron, but the number referred to a reel name of a Seaside ?? from what I could make out, there was also a Pacific and an Atlantic, from what I can read. I recall Mike talking about this, but I can't find it anywhere, I recall it was something to do with Penn changing the names for the sale ?? I could be way off there, I simply don't know.
So, I guess my aim is to put a reel with this box, So I'm hoping I can get to the bottom of the names and try and identify which one it is and hopefully put the correct reel with it..
It's been a Buzz actually researching this, It's been interesting.
Below is the hand written ledger, which is in Mikes yellow book, which shows the number 4058 and the names.....
Col
Nice investigative work Col. 8)
The box says "free spool", so it's likely a direct drive model with no star drag, but will have freespool lever
Others will know more
Thanks guys.
So in 33 we have a Long Beach, a Bay Side, a Sea Ford and a Sea Hawk, and the much sort after Sea King !!!! but they were a 150 yd
I'm confused a bit on the free spool part, as all the reels in the catalogue state free spool in there description and do have so, in various forms.
Going by the prices in the hand written ledger, the 300 yard versions, we have 4 models on offer to Tyron.
Atlantic 4098 $2.75
Pacific 4048 $2.35
SeaSide 4058 $1.55
SeaHawk 4028 $1.45
Presuming there were special prices for Tyron being they were trade sales, my 4058 is 3rd on the money scale in $ terms of sales to Tyron.
If we were to take the same price scale on Penn 33 reels, the 4058 is 3rd on the money list, it would point to a Sea Ford ????
With the Sea Hawk being the cheapest..........
I still haven't found out why the names were different and in other sales they and for other trade sales they used numbers...
But there were definitely 4 reel types, sold in 33 to Tyron, as per the above numbers, in 34, there were new numbered reels sold to Tyron,.
4017
4018
4037
4038 I'ts assumed that the numbers ending with "7" denoted a 250 yd version
And the numbers ending with "8" were indeed 300 yard versions.
I had heard that the 4037 and the 4038 were designated the Sea Ford, but that doesn't explain the first set of 4 numbers in 33, as all were 300 yd reels, so it must have include the Sea ford in those set of numbers and the newer numbers in 34 ( above) were perhaps the Newport, bridge city or maybe the Oceanside ?? Dunno....... maybe will never know ;D
I think I may just call it now, that this box is for a 33 300 yd Sea Ford,,,,,,,, Maybe ;D
Col
You are in the world of Trade Reels trying to make sense of it. I do not believe you can do it. Look at the ledger. It puts the Sea Side model name with model # 4058. Look at the model # on the Kingfisher Trade reel in the photo from Ray Hodges. The reel is a 1933 Sea Ford--250 yard version with a Model # of 4047 on the box and a Model name is Sea Side. The 1933 Penn ledger names the 250 yard Sea Side as a #4057. See where I am going here. The facts and documentation conclude that the only answer is "Confusion" and the bottom line is no one will ever know because it did not matter in those days. They were mixing boxes and model name all the time concerning Trade Reels. Especially with the Edward K. Tryon reels. That was a very short lived Trade Account. I do not believe it lasted more than three or four years.
Here is my opinion of the 1933 Edward K. Tryon aka Kingfisher Trade reels and how they directly relate to the Penn Models:
Model 4027---250 yard---Sea Hawk---$??.??
Model 4028---300 Yard---Sea Hawk---$1.45
Model 4057---250 yard---Sea Ford aka Sea Side---$1.37
Model 4058---300 yard---Sea Ford aka Sea Side---$1.55
Model 4047---250 yard---Bay Side aka Pacific---$2.10
Model 4048---300 yard---Bay Side aka Pacific---$2.35
Model 4097---250 yard---Long Beach aka Atlantic---$2.50
Model 4098---300 yard---Long Beach aka Atlantic---$2.75
Basically if you use the Ledger, Jobbers List and the surviving reel and box that Ray Hodges found, I feel my logic works for 1933. The ledger entry is page 14 of the ledger putting us in November, 1933. The Sea Ford was actually a late introduced 1933 reel, that replaced the Sea King model that never happened (until some collector finds one).
Because I believe the Sea Hawk was Penn's first reel, Edward K. Tryon and Penn both used the Sea Hawk name, but of course, that is speculation on my parts. What is really cool is no one can refute that speculation because no one really knows... ;D ;D
Hi Mike, It's been an interesting thing to research, all the same.
Yes, from the jobbers list, in 33, 5058 relates to a 300 yd sea ford, I'm real happy, cause I have that reel to match with the box ...
I can't find that photo which you mentioned on Ray's box and reel. But it seems strange that 4047, would mean a seaford, that number in 33 is for a 4047 is a pacific, which would make it a bay side ??, maybe because I can't find that reference of Ray's one to look at.
I did notice the date too on that jobbers list and made the relation to the fact the Sea Ford was a late 33 offering.
I luv this stuff, I bet, there are many many more strange findings as hopefully more old boxes turn up, part of the mystique of everything I suppose.
Mike, the box and the reel can now be retired to the shelf, to sit together, with at least a bit of a story to them..
On with the find I say...
Thanks again Mike. ( awesome history )
Col
PS, The computer service is so bad at the moment, the photo is only just coming thru now, slowly down loading.....
didn't realise there was a photo attached....
Col
Ok, had to comment again, once I saw the photo of the box ( finally downloaded ).
Wow, the name is actually on the box. I straight away went thru the ledgers again, to see if 5058 was listed again in the following years, but it doesn't re appear. I thought that maybe 33 boxes had names on them , which would make my box a latter year, but 5058 it seems, to be only listed in 33.
So I'll keep calling mine a 33 at this stage ;D
I understand fully now as you said, we can only really speculate, on all things trade reels.
Very interesting, Thanks for posting that up Mike...
Col
QuoteOk, had to comment again, once I saw the photo of the box ( finally downloaded ).
Wow, the name is actually on the box. I straight away went thru the ledgers again, to see if 5058 was listed again in the following years, but it doesn't re appear. I thought that maybe 33 boxes had names on them , which would make my box a latter year, but 5058 it seems, to be only listed in 33.
So I'll keep calling mine a 33 at this stage Grin
I understand fully now as you said, we can only really speculate, on all things trade reels.
Very interesting, Thanks for posting that up Mike...
That was an interesting brain exercise. I always felt that another book could be written about Penn Trade Reels.
Mike, Now that would be an interesting book, both to write and to read, but I suspect would be very difficult to write due to these curve balls, as per above.
It's still to me an interesting subject matter and I suppose if more finds can be made and documented, "maybe" it could answer some of the anomalies at least. But that photo of Ray's Kingfisher box, just blows all out of the water, especially referencing it to the 33 jobbers list, which clearly states that number is for a Pacific reel, very confusing. I don't know the chances of finding more such reels and boxes here down under, but you never know, I do hope more show up, I mean you have pretty well nailed most things on Penn reels, with your research and books.
I don't have to many trade reels as such, but a definite interest is boiling.
Thanks again Mike for your invaluable info you have shared, which I'm sure you realise, is appreciated by all that share this passion and interest....
Thank You.
Col
QuoteMike, Now that would be an interesting book, both to write and to read, but I suspect would be very difficult to write due to these curve balls, as per above.
It's still to me an interesting subject matter and I suppose if more finds can be made and documented, "maybe" it could answer some of the anomalies at least. But that photo of Ray's Kingfisher box, just blows all out of the water, especially referencing it to the 33 jobbers list, which clearly states that number is for a Pacific reel, very confusing. I don't know the chances of finding more such reels and boxes here down under, but you never know, I do hope more show up, I mean you have pretty well nailed most things on Penn reels, with your research and books.
I don't have to many trade reels as such, but a definite interest is boiling.
Thanks again Mike for your invaluable info you have shared, which I'm sure you realise, is appreciated by all that share this passion and interest....
Trade Reels are a study in an undocumented market, that is what makes it so difficult. A trade Reel is a particular manufacturer in disguise. There are some new collectors that have a particular fascination with them. Mostly see them on Facebook. The future of Penn collecting is strong, keep the faith, more info will come out.