This is a link to the study engineering study. Interesting gearing concept for spinning reels of the future.
(https://cjme.springeropen.com/track/pdf/10.3901/CJME.2015.0420.063.pdf)
Are you sure that's not a pic with a funny aspect ratio? Apr 1 is still a bit away
I thought you didn't like worm-O, as unnecessarily partsy/fiddly
this seems pretty close in complexity... wonder how it compares functionally
Quote from: philaroman on March 23, 2022, 02:49:18 AMI thought you didn't like worm-O, as unnecessarily partsy/fiddly
this seems pretty close in complexity... wonder how it compares functionally
The link in my post goes to 11 pages of engineering info.
This one does have a April 1 vibe (Chinese Journal of Mechanical Engineering ? ) , but after a quick reading, the concept is pretty straightforward. Here is my summary:
The most simple classic rotary to oscillating linear motion mechanism for a spinning reel is a scotch yoke. Check out the description and a nice animation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_yoke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_yoke)
A Scotch yoke is useful when you want to gradually ease into dwell toward both ends (more degrees of rotary motion required per mm linear travel at the end of the stroke)
Not so good with a spinning reel when you want consistent line lay. You want consistent travel distance per degree of rotation of the rotor. But (IMHO), a scotch yoke IS also useful in a spinning reel in that the linear motion slows down as it goes through the change of direction, which should make for a smoother retrieve.
They propose using a pair of cam shaped gears to drive the yoke. The shape of the cam controls the rotary to linear travel conversion. The gear teeth ensure a continuous transmission of power.
The problem is that you need lots of gears (a drive gear, a "receiver" gear, and two cam gears). Two of these gears are a specialized oval shape, which is more expensive to cut. And you will end up with a sudden reversal of direction if the cam shape is optimized for even line lay. Not sure how easy it would be to make this into a durable mechanism.
It is probably difficult to build this in a low cost way that will still be as easy winding as existing mechanisms.
Or something like that. Proposed in 2015. I am curious if this ever hit the market.
I am not a spinning reel guy, but I thought that uneven even line lay is generally not an issue with most spinning reel designs as long as you position the spool correctly by shimming.
This is the thing that I like about spinners. No shortage of guys looking for yet another way to skin the cat.
Thanks for posting this Tommy. Now I know what a scotch yoke is :)
-J
Ok jokes aside I'd like to point out a few things. For one, they show a pic of the gears, that they had manufactured for this project, in an assembled reel. But I did not see a pic of the spool to show how smooth the resulting line lay is. It's like that one video about the air wave guides where they built 2 identical rods on identical blanks differing only by guide type but didn't show the side by side casting comparison they went out to make. IF THIS IS AN IMPROVEMENT, SHOW US!!!
Also, offhand I can think of two spinners I own that don't have work oscillation but do have very smooth straight line lay. My older spheros FA and FB (large models are wormed small models are not), and my daiwa BG. Both use the traditional locomotive oscillation, but unlike the old penn SS and I assume many other spinners, it's not just a circle peg in a long oval groove, the peg is asymmetrical and so is the groove. The BG line lay is also asymmetrical but they swear up and down its intentional.
So in summary, the problem has been solved already, using a mod to a much simpler mechanism. I applaud the boldness of the attempt, but I won't be first in line to gamble on an unproven system that's needlessly complex.
Interesting, thanks Tommy, lost a little bit in translation, though. Yeah, I'd like to see that "scotch yolk" ——oval gear reel and try it out.
I like the worm gear type design on the Abu Garcia Suveran. It's only 3 main parts, the worm is cut right into the spool shaft. However, I've never put line on it to see how it lays...
I find the Okuma "eliptical gearing" system lays it as good as it gets. :d And it's pretty simple too.
Which reel Nelz? I'd like to look at the schematic. I know that on conventionals with worm gear levelwinders, the line lay is slightly adjustable, but never perfectly even for me.
Quote from: nelz on March 23, 2022, 08:25:28 PMI find the Okuma "eliptical gearing" system lays it as good as it gets. :d And it's pretty simple too.
Oooooh, so somebody did try the non-round gears! Okuma's design is a simpler version of the one in the paper, as it makes the drive gear on the handle shaft elliptical. So only two gears, both elliptical, and then a standard straight slotted scotch yoke. Make sure you put them back together synchronized, or something bad is going to happen :o
Here is Alan Hawk's review of an Okuma with the elliptical gears:
https://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/okvs8.html (https://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/okvs8.html)
Per Jason's comment, it does look like a less complicated/more popular way to skin the cat is to use an S-curve in the the yoke slot. Controlling the shape of the "s" has the same effect on evening out oscillation as elliptical/cam shaped gears, but with less complexity. It looks like Okuma's high end Makaira spinners use an "S" yoke, so that tells us something.
Regarding the Suveran worm style oscillation - the limitation with this design choice is going to be strength. Probably fine for smaller reels, but if you intend to wind under heavy load, there is not much room to bulk up the worm assembly (I am curious as to what exactly goes into the worm slot) Plus the manufacturing has to be top notch to get everything to run smoothly. No free lunch. But back then, I doubt that winding under heavy load was much of a consideration. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a Suveran if I was a spinner guy. Pretty interesting reels.
-J
Quote from: Gfish on March 23, 2022, 09:25:31 PMWhich reel Nelz? I'd like to look at the schematic.
I have a first generation Helios HX40s spinner with the green aluminum trim. Once you get the spool shims adjusted for your line type, the line lay is perfect. It casts brilliantly too. The C40X carbon frame lives up to the hype as well. Never thought I'd go for "graphite" til I tried this out.
You won't find anything much different in the schem, but yes the gears are oval and must be properly aligned when servicing, it's really
not a big deal.
As for Alan Hawk's opinion, what can I say, my real world results speak for themselves. Then again, he tested a different model and in a much larger size as well. I enjoy and respect his reviews but don't always agree with
everything he says.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on March 23, 2022, 02:06:32 AMThis is a link to the study engineering study. Interesting gearing concept for spinning reels of the future.
(https://cjme.springeropen.com/track/pdf/10.3901/CJME.2015.0420.063.pdf)
Very interesting reading . I think they are just complicating the gear case with more parts .
Q: What's the world's most over-rated reel? A: Suveran ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: nelz on March 24, 2022, 04:17:53 AMQuote from: Gfish on March 23, 2022, 09:25:31 PMWhich reel Nelz? I'd like to look at the schematic.
I have a first generation Helios HX40s spinner with the green aluminum trim. Once you get the spool shims adjusted for your line type, the line lay is perfect. It casts brilliantly too. The C40X carbon frame lives up to the hype as well. Never thought I'd go for "graphite" til I tried this out.
You won't find anything much different in the schem, but yes the gears are oval and must be properly aligned when servicing, it's really not a big deal.
As for Alan Hawk's opinion, what can I say, my real world results speak for themselves. Then again, he tested a different model and in a much larger size as well. I enjoy and respect his reviews but don't always agree with everything he says.
How does it feel when cranking with a load on the line ,can you feel the lobes change over through the crank handle ?
Quote from: nelz on March 24, 2022, 04:21:33 AMQ: What's the world's most over-rated reel? A: Suveran ;D ;D ;D
HA! That could be. Mine is one shelfie, out of four different shelfie spinners; box, paperwork and all. I reviewed the stuff Allen Hawk left out of his review. I found too many major plastic composite parts, albeit uniquely designed and engineered. None seemed to be in high stress areas, though.
Quote from: oldmanjoe on March 24, 2022, 04:28:16 AMHow does it feel when cranking with a load on the line ,can you feel the lobes change over through the crank handle ?
Feels no different than round gears.
Just a quick note relating to Hawks comments, I agree that other designs can also lay line just as evenly. But this reel also casts extraordinarily well and it does not dig in under pressure, I believe it's from the pattern it lays the line in.
Quote from: Gfish on March 24, 2022, 02:11:50 PMHA! Could be. Mine is one shelfie out of four different spinners, box, paperwork and all. I reviewed the stuff A.K. Left-out of his. Too much plastic composite, albeit uniquely designed and engineered.
It certainly has many ingenious and sophisticated design features, but like you said way "too much plastic". I also find it so clunky and awkward in shape, I mean, who wants an anti-reverse switch that big? ??? ::) And that tiny spool in relation to the size of the reel?
It's a great investment reel though if you get it at a good price!
Quote from: nelz on March 24, 2022, 04:21:33 AMQ: What's the world's most over-rated reel? A: Suveran ;D ;D ;D
There are many who would argue that but, hey, everyone is welcome to an opinion. :D
Quote from: nelz on March 24, 2022, 04:17:44 PMQuote from: Gfish on March 24, 2022, 02:11:50 PMHA! Could be. Mine is one shelfie out of four different spinners, box, paperwork and all. I reviewed the stuff A.K. Left-out of his. Too much plastic composite, albeit uniquely designed and engineered.
It certainly has many ingenious and sophisticated design features, but like you said way "too much plastic". I also find it so clunky and awkward in shape, I mean, who wants an anti-reverse switch that big? ??? ::) And that tiny spool in relation to the size of the reel?
It's a great investment reel though if you get it at a good price!
Nothing wrong with plastic when used correctly. The ambassador levelwinds are full of plastic, but since the plastic is mostly on the inside, nobody complains.
The actual drive housing body of the Surevan seems quite small to me, especially for a 5:1 worm drive reel. I read that they used the same body size for all models, so it may make a difference which model you are looking at. And the minimal number of parts for the drive train, especially the oscillation is impressive. This is a long spool reel in the era of short spools. The main gear shaft is supported on both sides in a single piece of solid forged aluminum. The handle design appears well thought out. Both look better to me than anything that I have seen on modern era reels, although I am not a spinner-junky myself.
Having said that, I do agree that there is a bit of weirdness dimension-wise. I think that it comes from the humongous drag capsule. Maybe they were trying to protect the drag, but the capsule pushes the spool away from the body, requiring a larger rotor assembly. And I agree that the giant anti reverse ring is not attractive, or probably necessary.
IMHO, you could make a modern version of this reel using some different design choices to eliminate the drag capsule, and have a pretty cool reel. The winding load capability will always be a bit limited due to the worm/pawl oscillation design, but you can't get rid of this without fundamentally changing the reel, and winding under load is only going to be an issue when you get into much larger saltwater reels.
I don't get the affection that you folks have for
glorified eggbeaters :P spinning reels, but I do respect thoughtful design. It is nearly always much harder to design something with the same functionality, but with much fewer parts. In that regard, you have to give the Surevan some respect. It has to have the fewest parts of a long spool spinner. It is the hack designers that keep adding parts until the device is properly functional. If you look at the most revered spinners that have stood the test of time, the designs are usually deceptively simple.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on March 24, 2022, 06:42:35 PMQuote from: nelz on March 24, 2022, 04:21:33 AMQ: What's the world's most over-rated reel? A: Suveran ;D ;D ;D
There are many who would argue that but, hey, everyone is welcome to an opinion. :D
I would have bet the answer was the Stella. Or maybe something from Accurate :)
-J
Quote from: nelz on March 24, 2022, 04:21:33 AMQ: What's the world's most over-rated reel? A: Suveran ;D ;D ;D
I would likely say —- nearly any spinning reel manufactured after 1990 —- regardless of claims, price, or bling.
Then, I also think that one of the most beloved reels of all time is grossly over-rated —- Mitchell 300.
Popular, great looking reel —- but when the numerous alloy gears inside the case start to degenerate with heavy fishing pressure, the A/R won't catch to stop the gear ratchet, the shims wear out, and the crank bends under pressure —- well, you get the picture.
And this is not just my opinion —- there are likely 300 of these reels out in crates in the upper storage —- and they all tell a similar story.
Suveran is a fine reel, possibly one of the best.
Best, Fred
;D I don't get the affection that you folks have for glorified eggbeaters :P spinning reels, but I do respect thoughtful design. It is nearly always much harder to design something with the same functionality, but with much fewer parts. >:D
(https://alantani.com/gallery/35/17471_12_12_21_11_35_48_359571699.gif)
Mitchel has some strange gear drives , I prefer the simple style less parts and gets the job done
never understood why Mitchell stopped making the Planamatic gearing.. use my 1974 Mitchell 308 with modern braid and it lays the braid better than most modern reels..
Quote from: DougK on March 25, 2022, 06:54:18 PMnever understood why Mitchell stopped making the Planamatic gearing.. use my 1974 Mitchell 308 with modern braid and it lays the braid better than most modern reels..
Oooh... planetary gearing for the oscilator. Just when you think there are no more ways left to skin that cat!
Looks to me like the planamatic system enables more than one oscilation per main gear/handle rotation, which a standard scotch yoke style crosswind setup cannot do. But the nested gears means that the crosswind gear has to be small, so the the crosswind pin does not have much horizontal travel. Which means that the spool has to be fairly narrow. Would be tough to get it to work with a modern spinner with a longer spool. Also doesn't look that durable for winding under heavier load. For the reels that the planamatic system was in, the tradeoffs might have worked out, but I could see how it would be difficult to carry forward into modern reel designs that might demand longer spools and more load capacity.
Curious how those planamatics held up with extended use.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on March 26, 2022, 01:02:58 AMCurious how those planamatics held up with extended use.
mine was my primary spinning reel for several decades, fished several times a week. Now I'm down to only once every couple of weeks sadly. Also used it for light saltwater in estuaries a number of times. Biggest fish were catfish up to 20lb, carp to 15lb. It's fine ;-)
Good point about spool size, though.
Re: worm oscillation spinners with minimal # of parts: if memory serves daiwa ss700 has the same total # of pieces (counting every screw and washer individually) as a penn senator. The line lay is razor straight and the casting distance is absurd.
But it's got a graphite body so some folks wont give it the time of day.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on March 28, 2022, 11:06:19 PMBut it's got a graphite body so some folks wont give it the time of day.
I don't blame them. I don't mind graphite spools, I use them all the time on my black ABU Garcia fulcrum brake reels and have never had a single problem but you couldn't give me graphite body reel no matter who it's made by.