How important is it to replace bearings? Are all spinning reels noisy? How much is too much?
Some noise emanating from spinning reels can be alleviated by a thorough tear-down, cleaning, burnishing, and appropriate lubing. And this includes the ball bearings, which I have always cleaned down to bare metal, then oil or grease depending on type of reel and apparent wear (whirring, hissing, or at its worst, howling!). I've only ever replaced bearings that were true howlers, preferring to just clean and re-lube them. My assumption has always been that... spinning reels can be expected to make a certain amount of noise.
But after hearing Fred Oakes describe listening to, and feeling for, bearing wear in spinning reels, and then frequently replacing them with new, I realized I've never actually done the work to know how much of a difference a new bearing makes compared to a re-packed one. As much as I respect Fred's knowledge, I needed to find out for myself. Replacing bearings is added time and expense.
So, as an experiment in "doing the work", I picked an old favorite, a Daiwa BG15 I'd bought new somewhere in the mid-80's, and have fished hard. I'm still using it, regularly, although it has become a bit noisy: hissy, buzzy, and a bit of clunking. What did it sound like new? I can't say I remember.
I started by comparing a set of spanking new ABEC-5 SS ball-bearings from Boca Bearings with the existing bearings in my BG15, as well as from a BG20, a D1300 and a D1600 (that share many of the same parts).
I first tested the rotor bearing, bc I expected that that was the most likely noise culprit, and possibly the only bearing I'd need to replace. The first test was putting each clean and lubed rotor bearing on a "bearing spinner" -a tapered length of wood doweling, or pencil- and spinning it right up next to my ear. This was revealing: The new bearing was nearly silent. All the others whirred/hissed, were "scratchy" sounding. Same turned out to be true for the handle shaft bearings on both BG's.
When I replaced the rotor bearing on the BG15 with new, it quieted the reel considerably. Replacing the handle bearings essentially took care of the remainder of the hissing. So... bearings matter. All that hissing and whirring my spinning reels make, is not just... how spinning reels sound.
What didn't go away was the slight growling, that sounded like gear teeth. How much of this was due to wear, or simply native tolerances? I first swapped out the BG15 gear with one from a well used but not abused D1300 (same part number). The growling persisted. Luckily, the D1600 I had —a recent acquisition— apparently had not been fished much at all and had little hint of gear noise. So I swapped in the D1600's main gear and the BG's growling essentially went away.
Two down! The hissing and the growling.
Lastly, there was a clunking that I was able to isolate to the main shaft moving the oscillation block in the grooves -in the side covers of the reel frame- that guide the block's forward and back movement. There was play in there, being not all that precise a fit, and likely exacerbated by wear over the years on those cast-metal parts. What to do with this one?
I tried felt —polyester craft felt— that I commonly use to replace, or add, felt pads on direct-drive casting reel spool spindles. The polyester felt holds oil really well and is very slick. I lined the oscillation block channel in the reel body's frame with well oiled felt to tighten the tolerances there. It worked! Whether it will stay in place is an open question, but was worth the experiment and so far has stayed in place.
Next was some clunking caused by looseness (tolerances) where the cross-bar on the main shaft supports the spool. What to do there? Felt! I slid a narrow felt "washer" down onto the cross-bar and when the spool clicked on, it wedged into the spool shaft, snugging things up. Away went the majority of the spool clicking.
In the end, new bearings, main gear, and spool and main shaft support, quieted this old BG15 to what it must have sounded like when new. Again, I don't remember. But, as I spun that handle, I had the shadow of a flashback, of a 25year old me standing in front of the reel case at the tackle shop I bought it from! :)
Some Take Homes:
Common noises:
Whirring, hissing, or howling(!): Bearings
Buzzing or growling: Gears
Clunking: Main shaft and/or rotor movement; Spool support on main shaft
Bearing (and gear) Options:
oil > viscous oil > grease > replace!
Next up were some UL/L reels I have that held 7X14x5mm rotor bearings: Shakespeare 2400 (Convertible), Shakespeare 2200-030, ABU/G Cardinal 3. All three have been well fished, the last two have been mine and well used since I bought them new in the mid-80's. They all "hiss". But the bearings spun on a bearing spinner were pretty quiet. And the new bearings I bought to replace them sounded the same. I replaced the rotor bearings on the two Shakes anyway and this did nothing to quiet the "hiss". Likely a new set of gears in both would help? So, in this case, I'll have to settle for the hissing; How they've sounded for as far back as I can remember.
The Cardinal I was unable to remove the bearing bc I do not have a C-Clip puller fine enough to fit that little clip. A run to the hardware store will be needed take that reel down entirely.
Quote from: Paul Roberts on July 03, 2022, 12:34:40 AMThe Cardinal I was unable to remove the bearing bc I do not have a C-Clip puller fine enough to fit that little clip. A run to the hardware store will be needed take that reel down entirely.
Even with a quality pair of clip pullers those little C3 bearing clips will test your patience! They're stiff little boogers with not much squeeze space between the ears. ;)
Quote from: Midway Tommy on July 03, 2022, 04:40:30 AMQuote from: Paul Roberts on July 03, 2022, 12:34:40 AMThe Cardinal I was unable to remove the bearing bc I do not have a C-Clip puller fine enough to fit that little clip. A run to the hardware store will be needed take that reel down entirely.
Even with a quality pair of clip pullers those little C3 bearing clips will test your patience! They're stiff little boogers with not much squeeze space between the ears. ;)
Yes! If I can't find a quality pair that I think will do the job, I may just see if can modify one of the jaws I already have. Overall a busy little reel inside to boot.
Some whirr, etc. probably won't affect usability much, but it does affect, as was stated, how the reel "feels" in use. Growling or grinding is a different story, portending problems down the road.
Frank
Paul - You have done an amazing amount of systematic research here, and I know I certainly appreciate that. While what you have done represents a VERY significant amount of work, I wonder in the arena of gear growl/whine/rumble if it might also prove informative while swapping around gear sets to do a quick Dykem check to see what the wear/engagement patterns look like on the different sets and how that might reflect in the end product? - john
Cool, I learned something. Clunking is prolly the spool attachment and/or oscillation block wear. Now to figure-out the felt thing—-what to use and where to get it?
Frank, nearly all my spinners growl at some level. It's not a sign that they are about to break down, but just get looser and noisier over time. The worst were the later Mitchell 300's I had and wore out. They began to sound like a box of gravel.
I guess I got tired of guessing as to what was causing the noises I was hearing in spinning reels. Bearings are an easy fix. Gears, more costly and for vintage reels, no guarantee that replacement parts are any less worn. This is where top quality gearing that lasts shows its true value, hence Fred's substantial investment in DAM reels.
John, a DYKEM gear mesh test would be interesting to see. Some people have talked about re-aligning worn gears, and this might be a way to do that. Not convinced it would work out all that well though. I'm guessing that worn gears will never again mesh as well as new gears. Or well enough to quiet them down once past a certain point.
Greg, yeah, shaft/oscillation block wear, or poor fit, is pretty common. I've played around with shrink tubing shims, and felt. The felt is just felt squares from a craft store. Fifty cents a sheet that will last forever considering how much is used for each application. I started using it to replace, or add, felt oil pads in the spool end caps on old direct drive casting reels. Felt both acts as a an oil reservoir and takes up play in the shaft. This was the first time, I believe, I tried it for an oscillation block. It worked. If it doesn't stay in place, I'll try an adhesive. But, so far so good.
Sounds like you are getting into blue printing territory . :d
The bearings I bought for the UL/L reels above I put onto a bearing spinner and found that those new bearings were audible, unlike the bearings I bought for the BG's. The BG bearings came from Boca. The others came from another outfit. I won't mention the name bc I don't know enough about bearings to offer an opinion. Will bite the bullet and try another set (from Boca) and see how it turns out.
Quite often its not the bearing, just the gears & pinion need shimming, cheers Don.
Also there are many small paint brush handles that will do for spinning bearings on, as you spray them with carb cleener, or brake clearner, then a little air pressure to cleen them out, a very light oil lube not to much or the lube will slow them down, if there ceramic bearings, know lube at all, they may sound a bit noisier, but will turn really free, cheers Don.
One thing I might add to Paul's excellent analysis of spinning reel noises —-
In a typical Daiwa, or other similar reel from that vintage the noises can be greatly lessened by replacing 1 to 3 bearings, gears, etc.
However, the cast gears are only going to last so long, and not fail under large fish conditions. It is the nature of cast metal whether it is pot metal, alloy mixes, or whatever —- to wear badly and quickly to the point of replacement.
This gets expensive —- if even the parts are available.
I seldom need to replace bearings in DQ's, Penns, or ABU/Zebco Cardinals —- and the gears being made of bronze and steel —- seem to work together very well for perhaps a lifetime.
Might replace (1) main bearing out of every 10 of these types of reels —- and gears seldom.
So the nature of the stronger metals, tighter tolerances, no slop, and more precise engineering —- makes the DQ's, Penn's, and Cardinals actually cheaper to get back to 100%.
Mitchells are a little more problematic —-
Thanks for your research, Paul!
Best, Fred
Well said, Fred! It almost always boils down getting what you pay for. Repairing or servicing quality equipment is almost always easier and cheaper than trying to fix junk.
One huge thing my dad taught me when I was around 12 years old about tools and sporting equipment was to stay clear of anything made of pot metal. Alloys have seen a few improvements since those days the but philosophy still holds true.
Good perspective on the issue, Fred and Tom. I can see that recovering many reels can get expensive in both $ and the time spent in running down parts. The quietest, most glass smooth spinners I own are indeed the quality worm gear models.
I'm intrigued by the subject of noise reduction, along with its cousin, vibration reduction. A pared-down variation on the automotive NVH (noise vibration harshness) concept. Noise doesn't bug me as long as it isn't "unhealthy" noises like something clearly grinding or clanging. Vibration on the other hand, irritates me to no end. Gears meshing feels OK up to a point, and up to a certain level of grittiness that I can't describe but I know it when I feel it.
For instance these two Japanese-made Herters followed me home recently. The bigger one feels really slick, the smaller one labeled 940 has a slight "rumble" felt through the handle when the spool bottoms out in the rotating head. All the teeth look good on the gears but I feel what I perceive to be gears meshing more than I like at that point in the rotation. Maddening.
been replacing bearings in my old Ambassadeurs with ceramics for easier casting of ultralight lures, 4g and under.
The ceramics typically are a lot noisier than the stock Abu bearings. I find the newer 1980s-90s Abus have excellent bearings. After a wash and re-lube with TSI 321 they spin very nearly as well as ceramics, and quieter..
never needed to replace a bearing in a spin reel (yet). There is an Orvis 50A that would benefit but I haven't been able to undo those tiny little screws on the retaining plate of the rotor bearing..
I had 3 old growlers, A&F 150 Three, a Mitchell 304 and oddly an Ambassadeur 7000. A full gear transplant fixed the A&F. Shimming helped the Mitchell a bit, though a full gear replacement is probably the only way to fix it.
The Abu is the only one I managed to wear out myself through a great deal of surfcasting. It's a shelf queen now sadly, not because of the gears, just that I don't get much surf time these days.
It costs relatively more to be poor, than to be rich. Simply put; cheap stuff don't last, doesn't work that well, and has to be trashed, repaired, or replaced pretty quickly.
Maybe think of a poor person that can only afford a $2,000 car. Dependable, prolly not. Get you to work when it's vital to keep your job, not always. Good chance of being towed and impounded after a break-down at your expense, yes. Costly for maintenance and constant repairs, possibly beyond what it's worth, yeah. Stuck with it when you can't afford another one, yup. Can you get a loan for better/new one, maybe, but it will prolly be a predatory loan. My favorite; "your job is your credit!". Public transportation? Maybe, but not available in many locations. If I started taking the Bus, it's 2 miles(1/2 way to work already) to the stop.
Shimano spinners are notoriously loud. It's never the gears. It's usually the pinion bearing because it spins much faster than the other ones.
I like to hold it in one hand and push and turn in the center and feel anything it's trashed