OK, I'm starting down a path that will *probably* take me to "never never land", but...if I can pull it off, it should be a "10" on the "neat scale". I've seen those, rare examples of old reels that are "clear"...or. "see through", so, I decided to try to make a "clear" 49 ! I've ran the "plan" though my head....multiple times ::).....and have been gathering up my supplies. Yesterday, I started by getting the side plates, and spool halves, ready to be used for the "master mold", which will be silicone. I still need to "plug" all the screw holes with something....small lengths of wooded dowel is the plan....and then make "forms" (same as when pouring concrete) from wood, to shape the outside of the silicone "pour". I'll need one form for each side of each plate, and one for each end , of each spool "half". Plan is, to make them on the wood lathe.
I started "cleaning up" the "masters", by removing the click ratchet from the end of the spool shaft...a small Dremel bit cut through the solder, pretty quickly. I was afraid to try "un soldering" it with a torch, lest I damage the plastic spool. Once the ratchet is removed...the shaft pushes out of the spool, quite easily, freeing up the two spool "halves".
Getting the tail plate ready was done by removing the click spring (this one was mounted with two "rivets"), leaving the 'stubs" from the rivets "standing proud" of the plate....then removing the click button, and tongue. Then, I did a "test fit" of the metal trim rings....they were "too tight a fit", so, using a home made "scraper", made from an old screwdriver, I worked the edges of the plate, until the trim rings were an "easy" fit.
Head plate was "readied" by, first, removing the metal "collar" from the hole that the gear sleeve exits the reel.....it's just "pushed" into the plate (from the outside), and secured by several "burrs" made on the inside edge. I found a socket that was a pretty good fit, to use as a "pusher", set the plate over a hole in the bench , and pushed the collar out. Then, I used a small 90 degree "pick" to push the "oiler" out of the plate. Another 'test fit' of rings...and a lot more scraping !...and it's ready !
No doubt, this whole project will stretch out , well into next summer! But, if you never start...you'll never finish! So ....it has begun !!
Wow, can't wait to see this Arlyn! What a cool project! 8)
This is obviously a labor of love, and should be a real neat project, Crow --
If there are any parts you find you are lacking, or need better of -- let me know, and if I have them -- they are yours -- N/C.
Looking forward to your pictures and description of methods!
Best,
Fred
For the threaded inserts .....which are cast into the plates, for the bearings to "screw into"....I was "lucky enough" ???....to have gotten a few "ebay" reels that had plates too badly broken to repair....so, I just "finished" breaking them, to salvage the inserts. Even if I am successful at pulling this off...I don't ever expect to actually "fish" this thing, I doubt the clear acrylic would be strong enough to stand being threaded and /or supporting the bearings, without some sort of metal insert. Also, when (make that "IF") I get that far...the "under bearing" spring on the tail bearing, will need to be MUCH "weaker"(the springs function is to stop the bearing from either "un screwing, or screwing itself tighter" when the reel is in use)to keep the bearing "insert" from breaking out of the acrylic. Both eccentric springs will need to be "re made' from "weaker" material, as well, to protect the spring "stop" from breaking off, under the pressure.
Sounds good Arlyn, will be watching closely & keenly, cant wait, cheers Don.
That's an ambitious project. Best of luck with it all.
-steve
I had a bit of time, yesterday afternoon, so I cut up some "scraps" of 3/4 ply, and some of 3/4 pine, and glued up some blocks to use for the wooden "forms" for the silicone. Our son manages a factory that builds new pallets, and packing crates, and "rebuilds" old pallets....so I get lots of "scraps" (and quite a bit of firewood, too ;)). Then, this morning.....raining like crazy!....I started in turning the rough shapes of the cavities. I *thought* I needed a fairly rough surface,to give the silicone something to "bite into", so, after I did the rough turning, I used the corner of an old file, as a tool....and "roughed the heck " out of them! ::).
I matched each "bottom" with it's "top", and installed some home made dowel pins (wood screws, with the heads cut off), so the 'front , and back, of each plate would be in the correct orientation . I also drilled a pair of "angled holes, to provide more "bite" for the silicone. To try to prevent waste, I tried to keep the "cavities" as small as possible, while still giving at least 1/8 inch of room for the silicone.
I still need to put a coat of sealer on the edges of the forms...where they will "mate" with one another...so the silicone (and later, the resin) won't "glue" them together, and, drill the fill holes, and the "vent" holes. I'm also thinking I'll need to install some small "pins" on the interiors, to hold the "master" in the correct position , so it doesn't "shift around, before the silicone sets.
Seems an ambitious but fun project. Having fished one of those reels for many years I look forward to see photos of the eventual result.
https://www.smooth-on.com/ make a variety of very strong and clear casting resins that may suit this project.
Good luck!
"Smooth on" is the brand of silicone that I have....I tried an experiment, using 100% silicone caulk ("washed" in soapy water, as a catalyst, as per some "google instructions) and felt that it wasn't going to work well, considering all the "nooks & crannies" and the inside of the head plate. The stuff was to thick, and "doughy" to get a lot of detail. I may try it, again, in making the "spool" molds, as doing it that way is MUCH cheaper !
I did use a bit of time, this morning , "sealing" the mating edges of the forms, and experimenting with some "pins" to hold the "masters" centered in the forms. "She Who Must Be Obeyed" informed me that "we" weren't working in the shop, today...even though it was raining.....so ! ::)
Can't wait...buy "she who must be obeyed" a dozen roses and ask "pretty please." I want to see your progress. Dominick
Smooth on sell a wide variety of different silicones and other resins that I've used to make moulds and cast lures from. It is important that you find the stuff most suitable for your application. Description and applications are all on their site.
Some silicones are hardly liquid and also end up very hard when cured, but others are thin and runny and easy to work with.
I've worked with Mould Max 20, 30 & 60 and some other silicones. I think 30 should have an acceptable viscosity for what you plan to do, but check the specks. Also consider if you require flex in the mould to remove the items?
I love working with the stuff, if you make a silicone mold it always amazes me in what fine detail the end result comes out the mold. You see the very tiniest mark on the duplicate.
The manner in which you pour the silicone is also important to avoid bubbles in the mould.
Good luck
Arlyn, I am really really really watching this with interest....
Keep the progress Pic's coming !!!
Col
Quote from: Dominick on September 22, 2019, 06:37:12 PM
Can't wait...buy "she who must be obeyed" a dozen roses and ask "pretty please." I want to see your progress. Dominick
She's already got more than 5000 sq. ft.of "flower gardens" (that "we" get to take care of ;)), so I don't think a dozen roses will quite cut it ::)
It'll probably be a few days before I get back to 'reel work", as it is supposed to be "dry" outside, and I'll have "real work' to do !!
Had a few hours to work on the 49 today...no pictures of these 'steps", though...Rita (my wife) had the camera, at a party! And, as "messy" as this stage was...it's probably a good thing, or the camera would have been a mess !
I cut short (about 1/8") sections of dowel rod, and "plugged" all the stand and post screws, in both plates......all I feel I need is the "location" of those holes, and the silicone molding agent , pushing through them, would have made the "master" much harder to remove, and, I think the silicone is "too wimpy", to make an accurate 'screw hole'...we'll see If that was a good call, or not :P. I also drilled a small hole in the tailplate, where the click spring screw would go, and re shaped a 5-40 stainless nut, to act as an anchor point for the screw...I'll cover that in more detail, later. Another thing that got "plugged" , were the shaft holes in the spool halves....again, I left "some" hole "unplugged" at each end...about 3/16"...just enough to locate the hole, for later drilling out to the correct diameter.
Then, the messy part ! I mixed the two parts of the silicone molding agent...it's MUCH thicker than I expected ! Filled 1/2 of the wooden form, and "brushed "(actually *smeared*) some of the mix on the bottom of the plate, trying to fill as many of the "nooks and crannies", as I could, and then pushed the inverted (the mix is too thick to have "run off" the bottom side of the plate !), and pushed the plate into the filled "form". As you can imagine, the "mix" forced itself out of the holes in the plate, that weren't previously plugged....in the case of the tail plate...that was the "bearing" hole, and the slotted hole for the click button, and for the head plate, the 4 bridge screw holes were left unplugged.....trying to plug those would have ...I *think*...made an "air bubble", and not allowed the mix to get into the ares where the yoke springs fit. The "gear sleeve hole, and both eccentric handle holes were left "open, as well....I'll explain my "thinking" (or not thinking !) on that step, later.
I repeated the "smearing", "pouring" and "embedding" the master into the mix, for the other plate, as well as for each spool half. By that time...me, the table, which I had covered with a "sacrificial" chunk of thin plywood, the tools, and everything within arms length, were pretty much a sticky, gooey, mess ! ::)
The "cure time" for the silicone mix is about an hour and a half, but, I'm going to wait until tomorrow (maybe longer, depending on "our schedule" :D)to start 'trimming the silicone that "oozed"out of the form, and starting to get ready to pour the silicone into the forms for the "other half" of each plate, and the "other end" of each spool half. It remains to be seen, if the silicone has gotten into all the places it needs to be...and if I can get the "masters" out, with out destroying my work ! I suppose I *should* have gotten some "real" release agent, but opted for "spray silicone" instead....that might turn out to be something I regret !!......later !!
Well, I'm definitely in a "learning experience" ::). I brought 2 of the forms into the "house shop" this morning, and after a little work with the razor knife.....trimming off areas , like the shaft, and bearing holes....had "oozed" through, and needed to be "squared off"...popped the masters from the silicone ! OOPS ! As you can see, the head plate "mold" has a pretty large "void" :-[. I *think* it's repairable....I'll try to "brush" some silicone into that area, and re insert the master. If that "fails", I'll start over with a "complete, new, pour".
The spool half mold came out perfect. I should have time to "clean up" the other two "molds", this morning, and *maybe* try to repair the head plate mold, this late afternoon.
The silicone is really easy to "strip" ....so I guess the "spray silicone, as a release agent, is doing OK. The "important parts" of the head plate mold look really good...nice , crisp detail, and "full coverage" in all the nooks, and crannies...so , except for my "goof" along the edge...I'm calling it a "do able" project !
When I'm satisfied with the quality of all the mold components, I'll need to make some "pour", and "vent" holes for the clear resin.
You can see, from the pix, just what I meant about "messy" ;D
Good progress brother, enjoying this project...Bill
Been raining, so, a little more time to work on this. I set up my "forms", and made the "silicone pour", for what will be the "outside" of the plates, and spool halves. Before I did it, I "greased all the areas that I DIDN'T want the silicone to adhere to....mainly, the "stubs" of silicone that protruded though the shaft hole, the bearing holes, the eccentric holes, and the "clicker" slotted hole. I filled the empty form (the outside of the plate) with the silicone mix, "lowered" the completed "inside" form (with the "master plate" installed) into it, and screwed them together....I did, before I started, drill two 3/8" holes into the "join" between the forms, to act as "fill", and "vent" holes, for the clear acrylic (I recorded the distance from the outside edge of the form, to the edge of the "master", subtracted 1/8", screwed the forms together, and drilled , with the "center point" of the hole on the "join" of the forms).
For the spool half castings, I did , basically, the same thing....filling the empty forms with silicone, and screwing the forms together. As I had said, in an early post...this is a "messy" way to do it, and, I've "wasted" quite a bit of the silicone in doing it this way....but, I've learned a few things, and, for later projects, I *think* I can cut both the "mess", and the "waste". The spool half 'Pours" did NOT turn out well...at all! So those will have to be " do over" :P. The plates came out "pretty good"...not perfect, but, good enough to continue on with.....at a later date, I'll *probably* do these over, as well, but for now, I'll continue on, using this as a *test*, of all that's coming next, in the project.
I separated the forms, this morning, cleaned up the worst of the "mess"...where the silicone "oozed" out, between the forms....and installed the "nuts" ! Two of them...where the end bearings screw into...were salvaged from some broken plates I had, and one...where the click spring attachment screw will go, I made from a 5-40, stainless nut. I "tapered" the flats on the nut, so it wouldn't tend to "pull out" of the plate, when the screw is tightened. The attachment is an easy thing....the bearing "nuts" were greased, and "screwed onto the stubs of silicone that I left protruding form the mold, and the "click nut" was basically the same thing...I had drilled a shallow hole in the plate, in the correct (I hope !) location...this left a "stub" of silicone on the mold (where the silicone was forced into the hole) to push the nut onto.
One of the hardest things for me has been the "reverse thinking" required, as everything on the mold that's "IN", will actually be "OUT" on the completed plate ! Anyway, I'm ready to make the "pour" of the acrylic on the plates. The spool halves will have to wait (I need more silicone !! Wasted too much !) until later.
I'm loving watching this project come along Arlyn! Keep up the great work!!
More...more... Dominick
I just got back to the house, from making the first clear "pour". I'm not very "optimistic" about it, either ! The stuff I'm using ...when mixed together, IS fairly "thin" (viscosity wise), and seemed to flow pretty well, into the molds. BUT, there were LOTS of "bubbles" in it, even though I tried to stir it together *carefully, and slowly* :-\. I decided that, maybe, it would benefit from a little "vibration"....help the plastic get into all the "little places", and maybe get rid of some bubbles...so, I have a small "muffler gun" type of air hammer, and with a flat-head hammer chisel , I "vibrated" each form/ mold assembly...not too long, and not too "severely", and, after that, I WAS able to add more plastic to each mold...maybe a teaspoon full...so, I'm *hoping* it helped !! I'll find out, tomorrow, I guess ????!
Thomas Edison had 1,000 failures, or as he put it 1,000 steps, to perfect his lightbulb. I'm sure you will need far less steps ;) to make this a reality. Watching with lots of interest brother....Bill
Drizzle stopped, and the sun started peeking through, so I went for my "walk-a-bout", and when I returned, I "checked in" at the shop. I was pleased to discover that the small bit of un poured resin left in my container was free from "bubbles". So , by just "sitting there", the stuff "cleared up" nicely ! Hopefully, the stuff "in" the molds, did the same !
Great stuff, it's looking good.
Mike
I just got done "un molding" the plates........and, there ARE some bubbles :-[, but, not as bad as I had feared. There are two spots on the rim of the "head plate" that will need 'filled', .....I should have went back, one more time, to "top off" the level, I guess ???. Tail plate looks good...better than the head plate. I haven't removed it, completely, from the mold yet, because, when I removed the head plate, it was still a bit "soft", and started to "deform" a bit. The resin I used said to "de mold" in 24 hours, and allow 48 hours more to "totally harden".
I "installed" the chrome rings on the head plate, to get it back "in shape", and will let it "totally cure", before I start cutting the "sprues", and "flashing" off of it. I'll drill all the holes out, and install the bridge plate....just to make sure that everything is as it should be. If so, I'll continue by finishing up the spool halves, and knob.....then it will be a LOT of "polishing"....and maybe some "engine turning" on the brass "innards". I'll see , then, if it's a "Yay, or a Nay".......if I decide to "try again" (and I'm thinking I will !), it won't be until spring, probably :-\, because the time is fast approaching to USE reels, instead of WORKING on reels ;D
Anyway....here's what it looks like, so far....I think I'll call this one ,"Bubbles" :o
Cool project Crow! 8)
Yeah, super cool
Very keenly watching !!!!
Col
It looks great. That wet weather is probably what kept it from curing on time. If you have access to a vacuum pump you can put it in a vacuum chamber (a large mouth jar is good enough) as soon as it's poured and the bubbles will come right out.
-steve
In all my "reading" on the subject of mixing / pouring the resin....the vacuum pump /chamber was mentioned a lot. Another thing that was mentioned was temperature....it seems the warmer the stuff is (within reason), the less viscosity...and there fore , the less "bubbles". The head plate is still somewhat "tacky" to the touch, this morning, but I'll give it several days, before I make any "judgments". Instructions said to stir for 2 minutes, pour into another cup, and stir for a minute longer...which I did, but, I still wonder if I didn't mix the stuff "vigorously" enough ??? . I was attempting to NOT incorporate too much air, into it :-\. It is pretty warm , in the shop, but before I pour the spool halves, I think I'll "crank up" the heat, and also "warm" the resin...see what that does for me?!
As a last-ditch effort to salvage something that remains tacky for a long time, you can wipe it down with acetone.
When you pour resin into a cup it wants to stick to the sides so after adding the hardener you have to really scrap the sides and bottom well with the stir stick. That's why they say to transfer to another cup. Adding the hardener to the cup first helps a little because it is less sticky.
Also, measuring by weight instead of volume is important for some resins.
Heat is a double-edge sword. After mixing, the resin is going to heat up from the chemical reaction. The more it heats up the faster it will go off and harden. A very large batch cannot dissipate heat and it may ruin the pour or even catch on fire. If you make small batches or immediately spread it out it will dissipate heat better (more surface area) and not heat up as much. But, spreading it out slows the hardening time and allows it to trap more moisture from the air.
For me, doing the mixing and pouring and then putting an infrared heat lamp or incandescent bulb over it works better than pre-heating the resin in a warm room.
-steve
What are you using for the clear resin?
As a side note: Don't try to use a home vacuum sealer for a vacuum source. It will not provide enough vacuum, and you run the risk of contaminating food. Vacuum cleaners pull a lot of volume but don't generate enough vacuum. If you have a compressor, a venturi attachment and a vacuum gauge is the cheapest way to get started.
I have done a bit a silicone mold making, but very little clear resin work. I have also built a compressor based vacuum system, but I use it for laying up laminates, not for casting. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk mold making, casting or vacuum systems.
-J.
How many inches of vacuum do I need to pull?
After mixing try pouring into a shallow container such as tupperware lined with aluminum foil, this should help remove most air bubbles then pour from container. Also mix separate batches for each sideplate. Hope this helps.
Quote from: Crow link=javascript:void(0);topic=29466.msg342926#msg342926 date=1570323508
How many inches of vacuum do I need to pull?
I'll tell you how much vacuum, if you tell me what resin you are using :)
But seriously, I don't know if vacuum will work for all types of resins. If you are using a two part urethane, then the stuff I have seen suggests 28 Hg. I wouldn't be surprised if 25 gets you most of the way there, but that is just a guess.
BTW - the resin will actually boil when you draw the vacuum, so you have to degas the resin before you pour it, than degas again in the mold, The resin container has to be 2-3 times the volume of resin to allow room for expansion during degassing, and you might need a larger/longer sprue in you mold to allow for a bit of frothing. If you want to stick with the same mold design, only degassing the resin before pouring might get you most of the benefit, all the small bubbles from mixing will be gone.
I only do vacuum bagging, and not chambers, so I am not an expert on this, but I have read that homemade glass chambers can fail and you end up with broken glass and resin flying around. I just did a quick web search and saw this :https://ehs.princeton.edu/laboratory-research/laboratory-safety/laboratory-equipment-and-engineering/pressure-and-vacuum-systems (https://ehs.princeton.edu/laboratory-research/laboratory-safety/laboratory-equipment-and-engineering/pressure-and-vacuum-systems). You will also need some sort of trap system so that the resin does not backflow into the pump.
One more note: Sorry about being the safety police, but when I looked into this about two years ago, I couldn't find a water-clear UV resistant two-part urethane that was not scary-toxic from mixing to full cure. The stuff at the Smooth-On site is listed for Industrial use only (but I think that anyone can order it). I called around to some other suppliers and the safety recommendations were similar. My apologies if you are well versed on chemical safety, but most of us don't have proper training on fitting respirators, selecting filters, managing ventilation, etc.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on October 06, 2019, 04:28:40 AM
I couldn't find a water-clear UV resistant two-part urethane that was not scary-toxic from mixing to full cure.
Most urethanes do not yellow like epoxy does. I usually opt for the better adhesion of epoxy so UV and yellowing is always an issue. The best I've found for UV resistance is Aluzine. It's 2:1, medium viscosity, either fast or slow setting. It's expensive and finicky though and needs a low humidity environment as it cures.
-steve
Quote from: Crow on October 06, 2019, 12:58:28 AM
How many inches of vacuum do I need to pull?
A positive displacement pump will approach 30. A venturi will give you 27 more. Here's one that will get you 28 for only sixteen bucks.
https://www.harborfreight.com/air-vacuum-pump-with-r134a-and-r12-connectors-96677.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/air-vacuum-pump-with-r134a-and-r12-connectors-96677.html)
Most of the benefit (for our purposes) probably comes at a fairly small pressure differential. But, it would be more expensive to maintain 10 inches than to just shoot for 30 inches even though you can never quite get there.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on October 06, 2019, 06:28:11 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on October 06, 2019, 04:28:40 AM
I couldn't find a water-clear UV resistant two-part urethane that was not scary-toxic from mixing to full cure.
Most urethanes do not yellow like epoxy does. I usually opt for the better adhesion of epoxy so UV and yellowing is always an issue. The best I've found for UV resistance is Aluzine. It's 2:1, medium viscosity, either fast or slow setting. It's expensive and finicky though and needs a low humidity environment as it cures.
-steve
Don't know about Aluzine, but most laminating epoxies have a pretty high shrink rate, which is not a problem when mixed with fibers or glass cloth, but for casting clear parts there is going to be some warping and shrinking (around 5% shrink by volume I think). There are epoxy casting resins that don't shrink much. You might need a thicker part than a 349 sideplate to have a successful epoxy part. Casting epoxy is usually not elastic enough for thin walled parts, but I could be wrong. Don't know if it is recommended to vacuum de-gas casting epoxy.
Thanks for all the input, folks ! Here's the stuff I used:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BM9LHRB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
"epoxy resin"
It does have low...or no..odor, although I used it in a "well ventilated" area, anyway (I didn't get this old by being either stupid, or lucky ! :D) . I DO have one of those "cheap" ,air driven, vacuum extractors....and *may* attempt a "try" using it....as I have a couple ideas for a "chamber" (not "see through", though ...unless you're Superman ;)). This stuff doesn't seem to "shrink"...although, as the air bubbles came out, it did "settle" deeper into the "sprue"(the fill hole and vent hole)...so, I'm thinking that a longer, larger "funnel" will help with that. I DID "top off" the pour, a couple times, but, I should have "kept topping off" for a longer period...I walked away too quickly, I guess ?!
As long a period as it takes to "set", I'm thinking on dramatically increasing the time I "stir", as well as allowing more time before I actually "pour"....and if I try the "shallow pan" trick, I'm thinking the "bubble problem" will , for the most part, go away"....or , I'm HOPING it will go away ! After I finish up the molds for the spool halves (hopefully, today) I'll give casting THEM, a try....warmer temps in the shop, and warmer "mix" temperature (put the bottles in a pan of warm water, before I mix), longer stir time, longer "wait to pour" time (in a shallow pan, instead of a "tall cup"), and see what the results are !........Thanks again for your input !
Quote from: Crow on October 06, 2019, 01:29:06 PM
Thanks for all the input, folks ! Here's the stuff I used:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BM9LHRB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
"epoxy resin"
It does have low...or no..odor, although I used it in a "well ventilated" area, anyway (I didn't get this old by being either stupid, or lucky ! :D) . I DO have one of those "cheap" ,air driven, vacuum extractors....and *may* attempt a "try" using it....as I have a couple ideas for a "chamber" (not "see through", though ...unless you're Superman ;)). This stuff doesn't seem to "shrink"...although, as the air bubbles came out, it did "settle" deeper into the "sprue"(the fill hole and vent hole)...so, I'm thinking that a longer, larger "funnel" will help with that. I DID "top off" the pour, a couple times, but, I should have "kept topping off" for a longer period...I walked away too quickly, I guess ?!
As long a period as it takes to "set", I'm thinking on dramatically increasing the time I "stir", as well as allowing more time before I actually "pour"....and if I try the "shallow pan" trick, I'm thinking the "bubble problem" will , for the most part, go away"....or , I'm HOPING it will go away ! After I finish up the molds for the spool halves (hopefully, today) I'll give casting THEM, a try....warmer temps in the shop, and warmer "mix" temperature (put the bottles in a pan of warm water, before I mix), longer stir time, longer "wait to pour" time (in a shallow pan, instead of a "tall cup"), and see what the results are !........Thanks again for your input !
Figured you were being safe, but thought I should mention just in case. A guy at my local shop did himself some lung damage on a single exposure casting some nasty urethane.
Casting epoxy is designed for low shrink. The issue will be strength for thin walled parts. For a display piece, this will probqbly not be an issue, just don't use much torque on the screws and tighten evenly. A coat of clear acrylic will help to slow down the yellowing.
In the photos, I saw mini bubbles spread out though the part in addition to the few larger bubbles. This is probably from the mixing, and what degassing will help with. Vibration and time will help degas the resin before pouring. Since it is casting resin, it should be self degassing if you follow the instructions. They use this stuff for art projects and countertops, so no micro-bubbles is pretty much mandatory for this type of product.
If heat is recommended with pouring, it is probably worthwhile to warm up the mold a bit as well. The heat should thin the resin. Pouring from high up with a fine stream can help minimize the air trapped by the resin entering the mold, if you have enough working time.
Looking at wher the sprue is, there is a long distance for bubbles trapped at the bottom to reach the top. If the working time is long enough, it might be worthwhile to pour a bit, wait a bit, etc, so that the bubbles at the bottom can work their way to the surface more easily.
With lots of casting resins, the so-called working time is the maximum time it might be possible to pour, but the viscocity can go up before then. As a rule of thumb I budget my time for half of the listed working time (AKA pot life) for a product that I am not used to.
Exciting! Keep posting. I want to learn more about clear resins.
-J
Yeah, I went back and "refilled" the mold, twice....as the air bubbles left, or more "nooks & crannies" were able to be filled....the level in the funnel went down. I *should* have given it at least one more "refill"....but didn't ! When I "vibrated" the mold....the level went down...dramatically. I refilled, waited,maybe, 10-15 minutes, and refilled, again. I think for my next pour (the spool halves), I'll use a larger "funnel" so the top of the "sprue hole"(and vent hole,as well)has a larger amount of material "on tap". I guess I'll never learn any younger !!
I knew from the get-go that strength would be an issue....as far as "using" the reel goes....but, it's a "to look at" reel, not a "to fish with". Most of the "high strength" resins are much more "fume prone", and that, along with some other "hazards", made me think they weren't something I wanted ...or needed...to use.
This is way too cool. :D
Now I have no experience with molds, but when I made a "bottle cap" clear resin table with a friend a few years back we poured about an inch then used a hand torch to bring the tiny bubbles to the surface. We did the same for the next 2" and it drastically reduced the amount of bubbles (maybe there were 6-8 tiny bubbles that didn't make it all the way to the surface where there were hundreds before the torching) in the end.
Neat project... looking forward to more.
Dom
Using both the silicone...to make the molds...and the resin...to actually cast the 'object" are a totally new thing for me, so, any, and all input is appreciated ! I have read about the "torch" trick in my on line "trying to learn" searches. The thing that's complicating the issue...in the way I'm doing it..is the "mold" has to totally "encapsulate" the object. I can't see any other way to do it.Casting "one side" of , say, the head plate, would be much easier to do...but, BOTH sides need to be done at the same time. I'm "hoping" that heating both the resin, and the mold, and being a bit more careful....and slower!...in making the "pour", will get me to an acceptable level :-\. Mo just sent me a broken plate, so I can salvage the "threaded insert" for the bearing (Thanks, again, Mo !!), so I'd like to try again on the head plate (without "breaking up" the one I've already cast !).....hopefully I'll have time , before we head "south" for the winter ::)!!
Touche', you're right, can't torch while inside a full mold.
looking forward to this.
Keep it up,
Dom
I think it really helps to visualize what is going on at each step to cause the formation of bubbles and how the bubbles are prevented from reaching the surface of the resin. Turbulence is your adversary, especially for smaller bubbles. Turbulence is occurring when mixing AND pouring. Once a bubble is in the part, the smaller the bubble, and the greater the distance it has to travel to reach the surface, the more likely that it will remain in the part.
In addition to degassing the resin in the pot, I would avoid the funnel if possible, and pour as small a stream as possible. in addition to decreasing turbulence, a very thin steam cannot carry bubbles as we well.
The fact that you had to top off several times means that there was a large amount of air trapped with the current pouring method. This is the air in the mold that is not escaping as the pour is occurring, but rather is having to travel through resin in order to exit. Controlling the pouring stream should help here as well.
Hopefully, carefully managing temp, mixing and pouring will yield the results you want. If not, you may need to think about a new mold. Professional mold designers (not me) use flue, gate and riser design, plus part orientation to allow the resin to enter the mold without turbulence, and to give the air in the mold the most effective path to leave the part as the resin enters.
An additional technique for thinner walled parts is to use vacuum to draw resin through the part. You need to design the mold for his purpose. The basic idea is that a tube goes from the resin pot into the mold. At the appropriate location in the mold there is an exit port where vacuum is applied. Not a lot of vacuum that would make unnecessary turbulence, just enough vacuum to to gently draw the resin through the mold.
Another example: if the mold was designed to be poured so that the inside of the sideplate was facing up, you could put a series of vents or risers that would allow bubbles to rise above the part. In addition, by casting the part with a flat orientation, bubbles have less of a distance to travel to escape the part. This may not be the best strategy for your part. It is just an example of the thought process that goes into mold design.
Keep us posted!
-J
What if the mold was tipped on its end, think of a reel sitting on its seat, and the pour flue and vent were at the top, like where you would find a harness lug, and then a vacuum applied? With a gentle pour to minimize bubbles? Granted the bubbles would have a long way to travel to the top, but they may collect other smaller bubbles as they rise.....just a thought....Bill
One other thought just crossed my mind: The mechanical vibration might have been turning those air pockets trapped by pouring into little bubbles, so I may have been wrong as to the source of the microbubbles being the mixing.
Anything that will help fill the mold without trapping so much air should make a difference. That sprue is tiny.
You picked a tough part for your first attempt at molded parts. Not to mention clear resin. Double extra bonus points!
-J
I tried to *think* it out, as I was setting up the molds...and my "fill and vent" holes are in the "edge of the plate, ", with the "reel sitting on it's stand". That's he way it "appeared" to be the easiest for the resin to get to all the "nooks".. I also, have *re thought* the "vibration", that might have NOT been a good thing! Time will tell, for sure, but I think "warming the mix",and "slowing down the pour", will gain me a lot.....I really DON'T want to monkey with a vacuum chamber, if I can avoid it.
Made another "pour" this morning! Heated the "mix" by setting the bottles of epoxy and hardener in a pan of water, on a hot plate, and used an electric "heat gun" to heat the molds. After I mixed the two components (in a shallow aluminum foil pan), I passed the heat gun over it, as well as around the edges....seemed to do away with a lot of bubbles :-\. I did notice that the molds filled much more quickly with the "hot mix/hot mold".
I did the face plate, knob, and both spool halves....I still need another threaded "bearing insert", before I cast another plate.....and I had just enough mix to do the parts I did, anyway.
I'll find out, tomorrow, if there is any improvement !!!
Well, I took the parts from the molds, this morning. Results were less than stunning ::)! The "warmed" mix, and molds did allow for a "less bubble" result....but, the "thinner" mix actually glued the mold forms together. Despite a coat of varnish on the bare wood edges.....a light coat of grease, and , a spray with a "real" release agent, getting the forms apart was a struggle! Pretty well means there will be a lot of work getting the forms back in shape, if I want to try again. Spool halves didn't turn out well, at all. The "flange" areas of the spool are so thin that there are spots that even the "thin" mix didn't get to...I'm thinking the "surface tension" of the mix against the actual mold was just too great to allow the mix to fill those areas.....maybe "vibration" would have helped, in this case ???. The head plate, I think, will be usable....it seems to have "set up" much harder than my first attempt (maybe the heat helped with the mixing, as well ???). There is a LOT of "flash" that needs trimmed...and still a lot of bubbles (maybe a vacuum chamber WILL be needed, after all ???), but, all in all, I think I'm going to go ahead and "finish" this one....drill out all the holes, trim the "flash", and fit the bridge.
As the weather continues to get more "fall like", my outside work will start to diminish, so I should have a "bit" more "reel time"
It took 39 first attempts for WD-40 to become a viable, and effective result, Arlyn --
I would say you are way ahead of the game!
Kudos, and great work attempting a difficult task...
Carl Newell was an innovator and expert at plastic injection techniques.
Best,
Fred
That clear knob is way cool Arlyn....I'm pulling for you to eventually perfect the liquid plastic and complete your masterpiece !! Bummer about destroying the molds, but I know you won't let that stop you....back on the horse you go !!
Ted
It looks to me like it is coming along really, really well. If you learn something with every attempt then it's a success.
-steve
Yeah, my Dad always used to say that you learn more by you failures than by your triumphs.....if that's truly so....I'm learning a LOT ! :D. I've already though about a *possible* improvement to the forms / molds, that , hopefully, will stop the "leakage" around the edges, and prevent the "sticking". The "spool" forms I made "fill", and "vent" from the "arbor end" (where the two halves of the spool come together), and I'm thinking that those points might be better if they were at the "edge" of the spool flange,...I *believe* that would answer the problem of the molds not filling in those 'thin" areas.
I think....for a first attempt...I'd have been wise to pick a smaller diameter reel, too.....maybe a Surfmaster, or some such...maybe even an 85. Besides having less distance to travel (because of the smaller plates), the bubbles would also have a "wider" area to travel through (because the plates ae thicker) on their way "out of the mold". I'm thinking that, I will "finish this one" (except for the spool, probably) to see what other 'pitfalls" there might be, and then do a smaller reel, using the different mold / form design., to try to find a "sure fire" method.
Well, I still think that it's impressive crow !!!!
I'm facinated with what your doing and in awe....
I call that a successful exercise.
Looking forward to your up coming posts.
Col
Quote from: oc1 on October 22, 2019, 08:16:13 PM
It looks to me like it is coming along really, really well. If you learn something with every attempt then it's a success.
-steve
I agree...great work Arlyn! 8)
If you pick a smaller reel for your next see thru reel, I'd recommend one with inner chrome rings like a long beach. This would help to retain shape over time and add strength too
Looking good Crow, a bit more clean-up work than you wanted but that's part of the fun, even if it doesn't seem like it at the time. Can you use the tail plate from the first pour?
Mike
I love this idea too Arlyn and have been excited about your project!
If you need a smaller reel for the next try, PM me. I think I have one I'd love to donate, NC.
Yeah, let me know what you're looking for... good chance I might have one as well.
Keep up the good work!
Dom
:) I myself am looking to start casting . One thing that i see is the use of a pressure pot to help eliminate air bubbles.
This may help .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShSxUg4Yyws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7fOMC4l7xs
Quote from: oldmanjoe on October 23, 2019, 06:03:51 AM
One thing that i see is the use of a pressure pot to help eliminate air bubbles.
Wow, thanks Joe. I've never seen resin foam like that under vacuum but have never seen a thick casting that big cure without getting too hot either. It's time to find that old pressure cooker. It's here somewhere. If I don't report back then come scrape me off the walls.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on October 23, 2019, 06:44:35 AM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on October 23, 2019, 06:03:51 AM
One thing that i see is the use of a pressure pot to help eliminate air bubbles.
Wow, thanks Joe. I've never seen resin foam like that under vacuum but have never seen a thick casting that big cure without getting too hot either. It's time to find that old pressure cooker. It's here somewhere. If I don't report back then come scrape me off the walls.
-steve
I don`t know if i trust this , but here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuQWjLJndro
Interesting ! That's what I had figured on using for a vacuum chamber .
the pressure chamber which looks like a pot, what is that?
neat way to get em bubbles out
Great progress!
I think the sideplates are pretty good already. I seem to remember seeing photos of the clear Newell sideplates and knobs that had a bubble or two. But if you want to press on in the pursuit of perfection, here are a few more points to consider:
1. Using a pressure chamber for casting does not remove bubbles, it just compresses the bubbles that are there to make them smaller, resulting in a part full of bubbles of highly compressed air. The mechanical properties of the cured resin, wall thickness, the amount of trapped air, and how transparent the final part may be will determine whether pressurizing is a good idea or not. the upside of pressurization is that the resin will not boil out of the mold, but everything else is downside.
Pressurization is popular for doing stuff like casting opaque mini Star Wars action figures.
It sounds like you are not that interested in pressurized casting, but since the topic came up, I thought that I should mention these caveats.
2. Boil over under vaccuum has to be planned for by providing enough capacity to contain the resin during the boiling period. I haven't used a vacuum chamber for casting myself, but I have been told that if the resin does not set too fast, boil over can be minimized by slowly ramping up the vacuum, instead of cranking it up to 28 right away.
It is also recommended to have a clear window into the vacuum chamber to observe the process.
3. Using the wood mother mold as a sealing surface is a problem. It helped you to minimize the amount of silicone needed, but you will have a problem getting a good seal. Better to have around 3/8 inch of silicone past the edge of the part. Once the mold is clamped, you will have a good seal. You can also build the alignment pins/ holes into the mold. A good seal also helps deal with resin shrinkage during cure, as more resin will be drawn into the mold from the sprue instead of air from the seams.
4. If you go the gravity route: All gravity molds fill from the bottom. Pouring into the top of the part is convenient and works in many cases, but the resin has to get from the top of the part to the bottom without entrapping any air, which is difficult for thin wall parts or parts with overhangs. For these type of parts, it may be better for the resin to slowly enter from the bottom of the part and drive air out the top. The sprue goes down alongside the part, and then underneath the part to a gate ( channel) that enters the part from below . The diameter of the gate restricts the filling of the mold to allow the level to rise slowly and allow the mold to fill without turbulence.
The ideal sprue/gate design creates a reservoir underneath the gate(s) that will fill easily without turbulence, so that you do not introduce bubbles when filling the mold. Gravity molds can include risers (I think that is the right term), which are sort of vents to nowhere. Risers allow a place for trapped air to go that cannot make it to a vent.
The downside for this type of mold is that it requires a much larger mold relative to the part size.
5. Using a large syringe to pressure inject a mold is a neat trick that I have used, but extra pressure can generate more turbulence (turbulence causes bubbles), so the gate design has to be very good, and/or you must inject a large amount of extra resin into the mold to push out all off the resin that may have trapped air. I prefer to use the syringe for vaccum assist to help pull the resin into areas of the part that are too small or thin walled to fill easily. This is much easier for controlling turbulence.
6. The bummer is that the casting technique used determines the sprue/ gate design, which determines the mold design. A change in casting method usually means a new mold. Switching over to a smaller reel to save on materials might be a good idea until you hone your technique.
Thanks for posting your progress! This is much more interesting and useful than a just a final result.
-J
I have wanted to see this happen for years. Started going down the rabbit hole myself once. My reasoning is a bit different, though. Theoretically, if you get this working, you can cast the sideplate of two reels and swap centers to make a new gear ratio assuming the pinion fits (they swap on a lot of reels.) You could end up with a 49 with Jigmaster guts (I think,) etc. I hope I am making myself clear.
This is awesome
The Man
Some good points, there, Jurelometer ! I'd already started puttin' on the thinkin" cap about "filling from the bottom".....I figured that the mix...trickling in from the top...was causing extra bubbles, but I HADN'T thought about the syringe causing turbulence ! By using a "long sprue" (or fill port), the mix would also have a lot better chance of "shedding bubbles", before actually entering the mold.
Ron, I see what you're getting at.....a plate could be "modified"...using whatever methods were needed (grinding , cutting, and gluing back together, to get the correct clearances , then used as a "master> to make a mold to cast a "finished, one piece plate :D....I'm only jut beginning THIS project...and I *smell* another , coming right behind it :o
Quote from: Gobi King on October 23, 2019, 12:48:02 PM
the pressure chamber which looks like a pot, what is that?
neat way to get em bubbles out
It is a pressure cooker, something like this.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Presto-Aluminum-6-Quart-Pressure-Cooker/931856