Hi John Taylor here and I am looking for any information or pictures of an original "not retied" Harnell Unlimited big game rod. I bought one that I think is probably retied and possibly has felt wrap added to front grip. There is thread damage so I am planning to redo the rod and would like to do it as close to original looking as possible !! From looking at the few Harnell catalogs I have I believe the rod is a # 585 Unlimited class but not 100% sure about that either. All the pictures in my catalogs are drawings not photos so hard to tell actual colors. I had never seen a Harnell rod with felt over cork grip but catalog says they made them.
Any one own an original that could send or post pictures of it for me ? Here are a few pics of mine and again not sure if it's correct or not !! It is a beast !!! Thanks ! John Taylor
I posted this on ORCA also so I hope some one can help. Thanks John Taylor
i believe that most or all Harnells were varnished that looks like epoxy so would be rewrapped
No it must be the picture it is varnish for sure not epoxy. John Taylor
Beautiful rod John, it's a tough one without the decal, looks heavy enough to be.
Sheridan I have 5 or 6 other 130 lb. and 117lb. Harnells and this one is much bigger diameter and way stiffer !! I am pretty sure it is an Unlimited size but I don't know any one who has one that hasn't been messed with ?? John Taylor
I can't help, but am pretty sure the fore grip has been reworked. You might peak under the fore grip wrap and see if there is a marshmallow grip under there. If the foregrip deteriorated and had to be reworked then the guide wrapping is not deteriorated enough to be original.
-steve
Harnell sold alot of rods untied but with the reel seat and fore grip etc.
I have had quite a few Harnell pass through my hands , never seen one with that kind of thread work or felt fore grip.
I still have a couple of big game rods , an 80 and a 130 ,both are the traditional red and yellow thread.
I also have a couple built on what Harnell called their kit rods mentioned above. No safe queens , still catching fish.
I have a pile of old catalogs and advertisements , I'll look thru them and see if there is a good foto of an Unlimited.
Best,
JT
I've seen green and yellow harnell's but not many, Could be it's kissing cousin a harrington a lot of those in green and yellow. There's no marshmallow grip under that, the size and shape is wrong. I'd bet it's a leather grip with felt of some kind for better traction. Hard to tell from pictures but the only size bigger than a 130 is unlimited that I'm aware of. Nice one any way you slice it.
I agree Sheridan. The green and yellow Harnells I have seen were more primary colors with the green thread being a much darker and deep color.
I'm betting on no marshmallow under that felt.
The hardware and butt all speak to an earlier product , maybe 1960 ish?
Quote from: theswimmer on May 20, 2018, 11:08:32 AM
Harnell sold alot of rods untied but with the reel seat and fore grip etc.
I have had quite a few Harnell pass through my hands , never seen one with that kind of thread work or felt fore grip.
I still have a couple of big game rods , an 80 and a 130 ,both are the traditional red and yellow thread.
I also have a couple built on what Harnell called their kit rods mentioned above. No safe queens , still catching fish.
I have a pile of old catalogs and advertisements , I'll look thru them and see if there is a good foto of an Unlimited.
Best,
JT
That would be great JT !!!! There are a few holes in the felt and I would say that the grip under is either regular cork or that "sawdust "type cork used on early Harnell rods. It's not the rubbery white "marshmallow" grip mentioned by Steve earlier that is used on the later rods. Okay I just found this in my 1954 Catalog Pics below. The description says 10' felt wrapped cork grip but the picture seems like it's just that sawdust type cork to me. It also shows Allen rollers not Mildrum like mine. Watch next post I make !! Getting it narrowed down. John Taylor
The color does seem a bit off, could have faded or it was an earlier restoration and that would explain why there's no decal. Looks like it's seen some love from the pictures, pretty nice shape for a rod that old. Good to know it ended up in the right hands.
What I would give to walk up to a yard sale and find that box of rods!
Two other things ,I think a 585 is a 130 lb rod ,
The other thing is both the green and yellow rods I saw were fresh water rods.
They both belong to the same guy and for that matter could have been restorations. One was a fly rod and the other was a 9 foot mooching rod that am still kicking myself for not buying on the spot.
Quote from: theswimmer on May 20, 2018, 01:09:27 PM
What I would give to walk up to a yard sale and find that box of rods!
Two other things ,I think a 585 is a 130 lb rod ,
The other thing is both the green and yellow rods I saw were fresh water rods.
They both belong to the same guy and for that matter could have been restorations. One was a fly rod and the other was a 9 foot mooching rod that am still kicking myself for not buying on the spot.
The 1960 catalog clearly states last rod in line up that the 585 R was an Unlimited line class rod ! John Taylor
Here is what I found in the 1957 catalog "I only have 1954, 1955, 1957 and 1960 catalogs" This one shows the same Royal Unlimited rod only with the Mildrum rollers like mine and it also says 10" felt wrapped cork grip !! The picture in the catalog shows a darker felt than is on mine. Notice the shape of wood but in pics compared to mine it's the same and so isn't the ferrule it steps in a bit same as mine !!!! The 130 and 117 Harnells don't do that. Notice also that the catalog states just above the rod specs section " NOTE: The above rods available upon special order only." that's maybe why you don't see many of them.
Here are some pics of various thread work over the years.
Also no label is ok as many rods left Venice without.
Well this one once had a decal but this is all that's left !! John Taylor
More
Ok here we go as far as what I believe are dates.
As far as I know all these rods are unrestored , a couple have had minor repairs.
The first pic is a 2580 7'2" 80 lb late production Venice.
Second is an Official Three Six 7" pier and bait rod ,Mid 50's production.
In the same pic is a 8' 7 wt fly rod from the early 70's.
Next is a 7' noodle unmarked , no label but verified as factory. Probably mid 50's.
Bottom,same pic is the 80lbr. Early 70's I think.
#4 is the butt section of the 80lb.
Next post , top is fly rod tip section with unlabeled noodle rod below, by the quality of the work on the noodle , factory , unrestored.
Second pic is the noodle above with the Official Three Six on the bottom.
#3 is a family pic.
All are unrestored , original guides and thread.
I have more just these were easy.
My garage is worse than Alan's. ::)
So there is a little sample of thread work over the years at Harnell.
john,
I know I have a 130 lb somewhere with the same shape fore grip, I belive it was wood however.
Here is my stash of Harnells and it been a few years in the making ! The one with the 16/0 Senator I just got and it's a retied 117 lb rod. The next four are original either 117s or 130s without getting specific ! Next 5 are smaller original rods the squidder with the long butt is cool !!! The monster with the solid aluminum bent butt was a custom by Biscayne rods in Florida that one has a beautiful set of Tycoon roller guides on it and I think unfished !!! Next one with dark wood butt is something I think someone just made to look like a Harnell only paid $50 for it and guides are worth that. Then the Unlimited in question which I am pretty sure was either a blank some one put together or a redo. John Taylor
PS you should be able to click on pics to blowem up.
Very nice!
I see we have the same problem.......
John is the rod in pic #2 5th from the bottom marked or labeled and if so what is the mark?
Thanks,
Jonathan
Looks like you'll need a larger picnic table next year. It's like a museum at your house.
Dave
In pic three , the green and yellow , 5th from the top is the color green I was talking about.
Quote from: theswimmer on May 20, 2018, 03:00:32 PM
Very nice!
I see we have the same problem.......
John is the rod in pic #2 5th from the bottom marked or labeled and if so what is the mark?
Thanks,
Jonathan
Here is the label
Quote from: theswimmer on May 20, 2018, 03:07:17 PM
In pic three , the green and yellow , 5th from the top is the color green I was talking about.
Yeah those two green wrapped rods are Royals but notice the little yellow trim band in the middle of the under wrap they must have started that later in production because the picture in the 1954 catalog of the "Royal Family" showed just green no trim band.
Okay I think I have figured out exactly what my rod is. Here me out then I am putting this to rest and am gonna go out and work in garden !!!
I measured my tip and overall it's 5' 3" and with the butt in place it measures 6' 10" overall. Now the Royal rods specs claim there tips are 5' 6" which with butt in place would make overall length 7' 1" different than mine !!! So on page 13 of the 1954 catalog they have there Kit Rods and on bottom of page last rod is a "585 K Deluxe rod kit" for size 39 to 54 thread linen. Overall length with butt is 6' 10" just the same as mine. That would explain the non factory wrap job. I am going with that !!!! Lol !!! I will most likely have Dave rewrap it with factory colors as best as he can or possibly just leave it be ! John Taylor
One last thing the 1954 and 55 catalogs show rod kits the 1957 doesn't so if it is indeed a kit rod those would be approximate dates of my rod. Can't wait to peek under felt on grip. John Taylor
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=22647.15 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=22647.15)
Quote from: oc1 on May 20, 2018, 06:01:10 PM
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=22647.15 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=22647.15)
Steve both those are 130s one is original and one redone by Dave. I don't have the redone rod any more. John
Quote from: 54bullseye on May 20, 2018, 03:08:41 PM
Quote from: theswimmer on May 20, 2018, 03:00:32 PM
Very nice!
I see we have the same problem.......
John is the rod in pic #2 5th from the bottom marked or labeled and if so what is the mark?
Thanks,
Jonathan
Here is the label
Ohhh Very Nice.
Thats what I was looking for.
Thanks John. I have a line on repro Harnell fishes labels if you are interested......
Funny I just came in from the garden ;D
Best, JT
Quote from: 54bullseye on May 20, 2018, 03:55:42 PM
Quote from: theswimmer on May 20, 2018, 03:07:17 PM
In pic three , the green and yellow , 5th from the top is the color green I was talking about.
Yeah those two green wrapped rods are Royals but notice the little yellow trim band in the middle of the under wrap they must have started that later in production because the picture in the 1954 catalog of the "Royal Family" showed just green no trim band.
Okay I think I have figured out exactly what my rod is. Here me out then I am putting this to rest and am gonna go out and work in garden !!!
I measured my tip and overall it's 5' 3" and with the butt in place it measures 6' 10" overall. Now the Royal rods specs claim there tips are 5' 6" which with butt in place would make overall length 7' 1" different than mine !!! So on page 13 of the 1954 catalog they have there Kit Rods and on bottom of page last rod is a "585 K Deluxe rod kit" for size 39 to 54 thread linen. Overall length with butt is 6' 10" just the same as mine. That would explain the non factory wrap job. I am going with that !!!! Lol !!! I will most likely have Dave rewrap it with factory colors as best as he can or possibly just leave it be ! John Taylor
I would take it fishing!
No safe queens at my house.
Best,
JT
Hi all,
Just to say that I have a harness Royal VII which is labelled 180lb-unlimited. The whippings were originally the same as those on the rod 5th down in the picture of that great collection i.e. light green underwrap with mottled or flecked green overwrap with yellow trim bands. The hand grip is the same white rubber and the butt is black wood - RS6H Varmac reel seat, same as on the Royal VI 130lb (which I passed up buying years ago, to my regret!).
I also have the 80lb version - the Royal V. This uses the Varmac RS5H but is otherwise a perfect match.
Both needed rewrapping because the overwraps had frayed and rotted somewhat, though the under wraps are fine. I couldn't get the same flecked green for the overwrap and so I've used plain dark green - looks nice.
No epoxy though; instead I've used many, many thin coats of copal varnish to retain the original, slightly battle-scarred, finish.
Somewhere I have some photos and I'll try to post them.
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....teasing us....please with pics!
BTW i think Voodoo Rods / Tackle may have some variegated thread in green
Way to go Chris. I think it is a sin to put epoxy on a classic rod that was originally varnished. It's difficult (maybe impossible) to know exactly what the varnish formulation was but copal is such classic you can't go wrong with it.
-steve
Pictures! I have uploaded some pictures into 'Chris's' gallery but trying to get them to appear here is completely beyond me. The instructions are perfectly unintelligible! To me, photos and computers are a match made on the dark side...
Chris
I restore a fair amount of classic rods, if the person is planning to fish it epoxy, if it's a wall hanger varnish. The varnish just doesn't take abuse very well.
John, here is a much later Harnell that also has the Gladding name on the label, which I don't recall ever seeing in the past. It has been re-wrapped and I would guess that the Tycoon Fin-Nor guides and Aftco Unibutt are not original, but it's still a cool rod and would be a good match for the 20/0 Senator.
Thanks,
Randy
Quote from: Vintage Offshore Tackle on May 26, 2018, 05:17:43 PM
John, here is a much later Harnell that also has the Gladding name on the label, which I don't recall ever seeing in the past. It has been re-wrapped and I would guess that the Tycoon Fin-Nor guides and Aftco Unibutt are not original, but it's still a cool rod and would be a good match for the 20/0 Senator.
Thanks,
Randy
Randy thanks for the reply ! I have Dave Turner wrapping me a nice 130 CalStar blank with an old school Lakeland reel seat that is connected to a beautiful wood butt and I had a new set of Fin-Nor Tycoon roller guides to put on it !! It will be all ready for PEI next fall 2019. Would go this year but hunting in Montana for Elk so would mess up work. John Taylor
Interesting about the varnish vs epoxy. I have had some 'using' rods where the epoxy has cracked around the guide feet but my plain varnished rods have actually held up better as there is some flexibility in the varnish.
Mind you, i'm talking about fifteen coats! With each taking anything from three to seven days to dry, it is a labour of love!
Sorry about the photos of my rod, but I guess you can see them if you go to gallery.
Regarding the Unibutt and Fin Nor guides, indeed those would certainly have been later additions from the rebuild. All the originals had Mildrum guides for the 80, 130 and Unlimited classes, though the 50lb and below had Aftco rollers ( the half-moon shaped ones as the HD guides had not yet been produced).
I acquired a Varmac RS6H and bent unibutt that came with a lovely 130lb Fenwick in white glass with the brown/yellow/orange whippings. It means that if I ever wanted to fish this unlimited beast, I'd have the right butt to do so - not sure I'd want to use the wooden butt in anger.
I also got the brown Fenwick 130lb as used in Jaws, though with a stainless steel butt rather than the brown wood of the film.
Got to love these monster rods!
John I have a new, unmolested Harnell Unlimited Class rod in my collection. Do you still need pics? Here is a link to a post I made about it awhile back.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=23512.0
Mike I remember seeing that rod what a beauty !!! I needed pictures of the "Royal" series Unlimited though. I have bought one that is in pretty nice shape since I started this thread and have come to the conclusion that the original rod I posted pics of was what Harnell called there kit rod and was slightly shorter than the production model. I also decided to leave it alone and not redo it I am just going to use some spar varnish to keep loose threads together. Thanks for reminding me of that beautiful rod you bought for a few PENNIES !!!!! John Taylor
Quote from: 54bullseye on July 15, 2018, 03:04:58 AM
Mike I remember seeing that rod what a beauty !!! I needed pictures of the "Royal" series Unlimited though. I have bought one that is in pretty nice shape since I started this thread and have come to the conclusion that the original rod I posted pics of was what Harnell called there kit rod and was slightly shorter than the production model. I also decided to leave it alone and not redo it I am just going to use some spar varnish to keep loose threads together. Thanks for reminding me of that beautiful rod you bought for a few PENNIES !!!!! John Taylor
If you noticed the decal on the rod, it says that it is 6'10"
Quote from: day0ne on July 15, 2018, 06:04:20 AM
Quote from: 54bullseye on July 15, 2018, 03:04:58 AM
Mike I remember seeing that rod what a beauty !!! I needed pictures of the "Royal" series Unlimited though. I have bought one that is in pretty nice shape since I started this thread and have come to the conclusion that the original rod I posted pics of was what Harnell called there kit rod and was slightly shorter than the production model. I also decided to leave it alone and not redo it I am just going to use some spar varnish to keep loose threads together. Thanks for reminding me of that beautiful rod you bought for a few PENNIES !!!!! John Taylor
If you noticed the decal on the rod, it says that it is 6'10"
Well I think number one it's a newer rod than mine "mine was from 1954 or 55" Mikes has the white fore grip which came later and number two it's not a Royal series rod it's the red and yellow wrapping. If you look back through the catalogs it will drive you nuts with changes through the years and each model has different features some seem to even contradict the catalogs ???? I give up there all neat rods no matter of length !!!!!
John Taylor
Quote from: Swami805 on May 26, 2018, 04:28:39 PM
I restore a fair amount of classic rods, if the person is planning to fish it epoxy, if it's a wall hanger varnish. The varnish just doesn't take abuse very well.
Thank you Sheridan.
No wall hangers at my place....
Best,
Jonathan
Quote from: The Great Maudu on July 15, 2018, 02:47:35 AM
John I have a new, unmolested Harnell Unlimited Class rod in my collection. Do you still need pics? Here is a link to a post I made about it awhile back.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=23512.0
I've seen those and they are off the Hook. Unmolested, Well taken care of. Best of the Best. Cream of the Crop in the original Sleeves!
Sorry, but I don't own one single Harnell.
I own the same Harnell with the original wrapping. It has the Royal Unlimited label.20220917_203328.jpg20220917_203345.jpg20220917_203347.jpg20220917_203356.jpg20220919_190752.jpg20220919_190827.jpg
Some photos of my two Harnell Royal rods:
The first are of the labels on the Royal VII unlimited rod then a picture of the dark green I used to replace the mottled pale green original overwrap (as I couldn't get that colour).
Next is the Harnell Royal V 80lb label then the 80 and unlimited side-by-side. You can see just how much stouter the unlimited rod is.
Then a close-up of the tips, again showing how stout this rod is.
Finally a quick shot of my chair rod tips in their rack. The white blank to the left of the Harnell is a G. Loomis 130 that I'm going to build into a real monster-stopper. According to my old Harnell catalogue the unlimited blank weighs 24 1/2 oz as a bare blank. The Loomis weights 34 1/2 oz as a bare blank! Phew.IMG_5757.JPGIMG_5758.JPGIMG_5759.JPGIMG_5760.JPGIMG_5761.JPGIMG_5762.JPGIMG_5763.JPGIMG_5764.JPG
Just to bring this topic full circle. I recently got a rod just like John's. This one has the label on it.
If nothing else it's colorful
I always liked that color scheme better than the red and gold.
USF colors
The mottled light green was the colour of both my rods' overwraps but they needed replacing. I couldn't get that colour so went with dark green.
I had read in a couple of books a reference to Harnell rods being 'double built'. I never really understood what thet meant since they could not be double-built in the same way a split cane rod can be. However, I see that the label on your rod says 'DOUBLE BUILT by Harnell'. I guess that is the origin of the comment I'd read, but I still don't know what is meant by it.
Any clues anyone?