Greetings to all from sunny England.
Does anyone know a way to "spike" the AR bearing on a TQ300(old style)
I find this bearing locks up under pressure from a fish, and even when I back off the star( with rod still bent) it stays locked
until I turn the handle forward again, then its instantly frees. Both of my torques do this, but it does not happen with any other star drag reel
I've ever used.
The reels are great (ok a little heavy) and I am happy to rely on the double dog AR.
Would a thin synthetic oil help it "slip" ---can I remove some of the little springs in the AR?
I do not want to create slack at this point as the bearing keeps the shaft inline.
Any advice much appreciated.
Thanks Richard.
Quote from: richard on July 31, 2015, 03:29:01 PM
Greetings to all from sunny England.
Does anyone know a way to "spike" the AR bearing on a TQ300(old style)
I find this bearing locks up under pressure from a fish, and even when I back off the star( with rod still bent) it stays locked
until I turn the handle forward again, then its instantly frees. Both of my torques do this, but it does not happen with any other star drag reel
I've ever used.
The reels are great (ok a little heavy) and I am happy to rely on the double dog AR.
Would a thin synthetic oil help it "slip" ---can I remove some of the little springs in the AR?
I do not want to create slack at this point as the bearing keeps the shaft inline.
Any advice much appreciated.
Thanks Richard.
It sounds like you just need to rehab the bearing. If it is sticking like this then likely corrosion or some other fouling is preventing the rollers from traveling freely.
Usually a penetrating oil and spinning the sleeve in the bearing until the oil is perfectly clear helps a lot to clear corrosion or old grease.
You can use a light grease after that to protect it from corrosion, cutting it with oil as needed.
ps My understanding is that it is staying locked when it should rotate freely??? Of course, the purpose of this bearing is to provide instant antireverse and it always only rotates freely in one direction, the dogs are just back up. Some spinning reels have anti-reverse that can be switched on and off. That is not the case with the Torque.
I don't understand your problem. The ARB is supposed to move forward when the handle turns... and only when the handle turns.
I'm with Mark - The AR bearing should lock-up when a fish pulls - It's then down to the drag setting to feed line.
Sorry don't understand your problem ???
Hi Guys.
Sorry for late reply and any confusion caused!
I know that this bearing only goes one way and that its supposed to locks when reversed, to prevent the handle spinning backwards.
It seems that when it is in this "locked" position with a fish pulling hard,that the outer "fluted" section of the bearing will not slide within
the reel in response to adjustment from the star. If there is no "back pressure" on this bearing then the drag works like any other.
Anyone who has a torque 300...200 might like to try tying the line to a tree,pull a bend in the rod and then unscrew the drag star.
Normally the rod will slowly loose its bend as the star is gradually released.With my 300's and another one I tried the drag star will loosen up on its threads
but the bend will remain in the rod.As soon as you go to wind in....un locking the AR bearing....the drag frees up suddenly,not good with a fish under the boat.
My Baja's are very similar to the torques internally,but have a regular ball bearing in this position.This works perfectly,like a sleeve on a senator,with the AR dogs
doing the work.
Ah, gotcha...the bearing is grabbing the AR Sleeve (which functions in the drag chain) preventing drag adjustment...
I'd pull it out and give it all a good greasing with a light viscosity grease/oil mixture and see if that helps. Can't say I have ever heard of this one before.
Johndtuttle.
Thanks for the explanation John.Seems like that is whats happening in this case.
Is there a grease/oil mix you would recommend? Last time I just smeared a little cals on the
flutes hoping that would allow the bearing to slide a fraction for drag adjustment. I guess that
a mix if grease and light oil will be more "slippery"?
Love the reels......built like a brick outhouse!!
Quote from: richard on August 04, 2015, 11:36:41 AM
Johndtuttle.
Thanks for the explanation John.Seems like that is whats happening in this case.
Is there a grease/oil mix you would recommend? Last time I just smeared a little cals on the
flutes hoping that would allow the bearing to slide a fraction for drag adjustment. I guess that
a mix if grease and light oil will be more "slippery"?
Love the reels......built like a brick outhouse!!
Yes, Cal's should be fine mixed with a light oil like Corrosion-X to keep things free. This should be done after cleaning the bearing. You can use a plastic safe solvent (fast) or just squirt Corrosion-X on the sleeve and spin it to work the rollers until it appears free of old lube.
You can also post your trouble on the Penn forum at stripersonline.com as that is their service center's site for helping people. They probably have heard of this problem before and will have the definitive solution.
Excellent, i will try mixing in corrosion X later in the year--reels are in Cabo ATM.
RE stripersonline.com,will check them out and post if the CX trick doesn't work.
great site this!!!!! thanks again for your help.
Actually this kinda makes sense; the sleeve actually serves dual purpose, so if it's locked tight under pressure it stands to reason that it shouldn't rotate or move side to side, until the pressure is either reduced or released. I'm going to have to test this with my own TRQ.
If you run a Q-tip through the internal bore of the IAR bearing clutch sleeve, you can find it's fibres will catch highlighting the fact it's not smooth inside. This roughed up surface is another reason why the clutch sleeve can bind against the drive/gear shaft. An internal rub with fine grade and a light lube should help. ;)
nelz..........please let us know how it goes with your TRQ.cheers.
Fish-aholic....That's excellent advice sir! I was concentrating on getting the outer "fluted" section of the AR bearing to slide,but its
this internal "square" section that actually transfers the pressure from star to drag. WOW.........I SEE SUNLIGHT! thanks.
Easiest application is to wrap some 800 grade around the shaft of a drill bit which closely matches the internal bore, and rotate the clutch sleeve around it. ;)
fish-aholic..........That will be my first move then....cheers!
So it just so happens to turn out that this is a more common issue that I at first realized, as it affects every star drag reel with an AR bearing (one way clutch).
Fishing generally heavy leaders and such I simply have never noticed it before but this inability to reduce the drag with an ARB is part of how they work. They often grip the AR Sleeve and prevent the sort of upward movement that is necessary to reduce the drag until the handle is moved forward/there is enough slack in the line for the sleeve to float.
I came across this as I have a new Abu Garcia Revo Toro Beast in my hands that uses a just patented drag system that is the only one (to my knowledge) that allows you to reduce the drag when the ARB is under load. "IAR Drag Release".
http://www.google.com/patents/US8807471
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/haugusnord009/P1030293_zpsxobjilp0.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/haugusnord/media/haugusnord009/P1030293_zpsxobjilp0.jpg.html)
Its a more complicated issue that it first appears!
Interestimg and inovative solution to a problem that is likely more commonplace then I would have thought. Where do you find this stuff? Good work! Interesting how the author also considers/addresses reduction of axial load on the gear sleeve/ratchet/ar dog assembly. Support of the gear sleeve at the side plate definately adds strength.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 07, 2015, 05:16:42 PM
Interestimg and inovative solution to a problem that is likely more commonplace then I would have thought. Where do you find this stuff? Good work! Interesting how the author also considers/addresses reduction of axial load on the gear sleeve/ratchet/ar dog assembly. Support of the gear sleeve at the side plate definately adds strength.
Well, the Abu Garcia guys are Muskie guys hardcore and this is probably a problem they encountered in their own fishing. Big girl diving under the boat and not being able to back off the drag leading to tragedy.... :(.
I got a hold of a pre-production Revo Toro Beast (their new big bait caster for heavy baits and salt) that I am working on for a "First Look/Sneak Peakie before they are available.... I contacted Abu-Garcia with questions and Patrik Svensson (one of the patent holders) responded :D.
In a Nutshell, the AR Sleeve is actually fixed axially (though it can rotate and is bearing supported) and the Gear Shaft is what actually moves up and down the tiny bit necessary. As the gear shaft is independent of the IAR mechanism by moving it you can reduce the drag regardless of the load on the AR Sleeve.
Another reason why good 'ol dogs are better than IAR bearings.
Quote from: nelz on August 07, 2015, 06:36:53 PM
Another reason why good 'ol dogs are better than IAR bearings.
Well, that argument can be made! ;D
But I can't find anyone that wants to fish braid with only mechanical dogs. Too much ka-hcunk due to the low stretch. :)
Remember, these reels are for casting, casting, casting all day long. Braid allows for a smaller, lighter reel and an IAR is kinda required for most people to fish braid and for most people fishing large artificial lures that require erratic retrieves.
best
Apologies for delay in replying---I spent the weekend fly fishing for Carp. ;D
Johndtuttle--thank you for coming up with all that patent info,very interesting indeed.
I am glad that it wasn't just my imagination,and that you have found other reels
that have similar problems with the AR bearing.
I am going to try fish-aholic's advice and smooth out the inner clutch sleeve, so that it might
slide a fraction.The outer "fluted" sleeve is already smooth and greased but still wont slide under pressure.
TBH since Johndtuttle has researched this subject and highlighted the problem with other reels as well,i am not
expecting miracles here.
Im with nelz on this.,Scrap the AR bearing and replace with a normal one-like the Baja special.
The torque has a lovely pair of AR dogs that it does not really use.If we want less handle backplay make the dogs alternate like said Baja.
Put me down as one person who would be be happy to fish with a little handle backplay and a more predictable drag. ;D.
I have lost a yellowfin and a decent wahoo when I could not back off the drag when they ran under the boat.
Also the thread stripped on one of the stars----which MIGHT have been caused by trying to add drag when a running fish
had the rod bent and the AR locked.
Thanks to Alan Tani and you guys for providing advice like this.
Richard - stripped the gear sleeve? Wow, sounds like you fish some very heavy drag settings!
IMHO, smoothing out the inner clutch sleeve will be counter productive to your issue, you'll never get it back to its original state, better to just get a new one instead.
The thought just occurred to me however, that dulling the finish on a new sleeve might help prevent slipping, hmm...
Quote from: nelz on August 10, 2015, 03:05:46 PMIMHO, smoothing out the inner clutch sleeve will be counter productive to your issue, you'll never get it back to its original state, better to just get a new one instead.
You'd do well to ruin the inner clutch sleeve from using fine grade wet & dry (800+). ::) IMO, smoothening the inner (keyed) surfaces can only help minimise the binding friction against the drive shaft rather than be counterproductive.
I think John has hit the nail on the head with his suggestion of how the lubed rollers within the IAR bearing take grasp of the clutch sleeve. That's 8 added points of contact for the sleeve to ride up against.
Here's a suggestion of how to overcome this binding phenomena;
When you have backed off the star wheel to achieve less drag, clamp thumb on spool and make one rotation of the handle. During rotation you will feel the drag immediately lessen. ;)
nelz........max drag used was about 15lbs,usually about 10 to 12lbs.The shaft has a square section where it goes through the AR bearing,this means it is threaded on the CORNERS ONLY (ie much less thread than a normal senator shaft for the star to rotate on) Iv'e probably tried to add more drag when the AR was locked on a fish,putting more strain on these small threads.(the replacement shaft made no difference to the original problem.)
Fish-aholic....Yup ive tried backing the star,say a quarter turn and then just as you wind the handle the AR unlocks and the drag goes on to this new setting. It works but if you back the star a fraction too much
you get an overrun...........a bloody thumb.........a lost fish..........and a strong urge to fish the rusty old 113 again ;D
Just an update......
Remove AR bearing and slide out sleeve that holds AR rollers.
Cut out all of the little plastic springs with a craft knife ,and re-assemble.
The bearing still supports the handle but without the side load that locks the shaft under drag pressure.
The star can be gradually released ,with the drag stack responding normally for the same reason.
There is noticeably less pressure on the star when adding drag with a fish pulling(than when the sleeve was locked)
The reel now relies on the excellent double AR dogs which is fine by me.....especially as the handle used to "creep" backwards
under load anyway , until the dog AR kicked in!!! (very high gear ratio working against weak AR bearing?)
Love the old Torque 300 now , its had a few months wahoo jigging with no problems so far, and I didn't even notice the handle slack.
Not for everyone perhaps ,but worked for me ;D