I fish freshwater and in recent years have always used grease on my levelwinds. I researched this and am happy with it. I generally only deep clean my reels once a year because that is all they need. Although I don't have any TSI now I'm sure it'll show up on my work bench sooner or later(probably the next time I call Dawn for washers). I'm just curious if there's any way to know if there is still a coating on metal parts? With spool bearings I'm guessing that after the TSI eventually wears away you will be able to hear it in the same way a bearing that loses its conventional oil starts to "hiss or squeal" during a cast. I guess I'm wondering if a coating of TSI 321 will last 7 months of freshwater use on the levelwind. Reels would be low-profile bass rigs, curados and chronarchs.
I use Corrosion X on my levelwind, once a week in salt water and am happy.
Here everyone says TSI is better but I can't get it in S.A.
TSI321 for me ;)
I have used TSI301 on my Abu 6500 level wind assembly used for Rock Cod salt water fishing over the past 5 years without reapplication without any issues. In fact, I haven't serviced the reel in the past 5 years but need to do so since I need new gears. Other than that, I would probably not even open it up. I don't cast as much as bass fisherman, so I'm not sure it's a good comparison.
The main reason I love TSI is that it also repels dust and dirt. That's the death of any gearing system. You can always apply TSI over the assembly and the pawl ever few months if you feel it's necessary.
Quote from: lifeofRiley on March 21, 2017, 03:30:44 PM
I fish freshwater and in recent years have always used grease on my levelwinds. I researched this and am happy with it. I generally only deep clean my reels once a year because that is all they need. Although I don't have any TSI now I'm sure it'll show up on my work bench sooner or later(probably the next time I call Dawn for washers). I'm just curious if there's any way to know if there is still a coating on metal parts? With spool bearings I'm guessing that after the TSI eventually wears away you will be able to hear it in the same way a bearing that loses its conventional oil starts to "hiss or squeal" during a cast. I guess I'm wondering if a coating of TSI 321 will last 7 months of freshwater use on the levelwind. Reels would be low-profile bass rigs, curados and chronarchs.
Seems to last a full season on spool bearings according to the experts here.
It's mostly what I use on baitcasters. Easy enough to add a few drops every few months if in doubt.
Personally, I never use grease on baitcaster worm drives.
I call it rock glue and I see so many baitcaster worm drives wrecked like this.
I do use grease on larger overhead light game reel wormdrives but only light duty adhesive ;)
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Bryan is right,
The TSI repels dirt and protects parts from friction wear.
And it stays in place longer than most of us may realize -- although, many times I just spray the LW worm with SG and remove the pawl for a quick soak in Simple Green when needed for a quick improvement when there is not the time to break the reel down.
As with all synthetic oils, as also in car engines -- synthetic oil will isolate and suspend the microscopic debris, metal shavings, and particles that can harm our equipment.
Then it just flushes out when needed to reoil.
I only use good, synthetic oil on LW systems (generally TSI321, if on hand) -- never grease. Grease is only for gears, bearings in the salt, and to help prevent salt burn by greasing potential corrosion or intrusion points.
Just my opinions -- and this is for reels I and my clients actually use. If a reel is to be set on a shelf for a collection -- it just gets minimal grease, and a light application of TSI. Then it is sprayed down with WD-40 and wiped clean with a soft cloth.
When on a fishing trip, I always have a "Go Bag" full of tools, basic spare parts, cleaners, and lubes. End up doing field servicing on a lot of reels in the evening for guys who don't know how -- before the next day of fishing. This is also good for shows and demonstrations -- when doing clinics on weekends, or sometimes presentations or night classes.
Usually always in the truck when away from home.
Best,
Fred
There's some interesting info here on why greasing a levelwind is a good thing and how oil can lead to premature wear and damage of a worm gear. I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong, do what works best for you. Do note that Shimano and Diawa reels both come with greased worm gears.
http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic.php?t=69890
Interesting that this was discussed last year.
I use TSI because it's not a grease nor an oil. More like a dry lubricant that bonds to the metal, and you can actually spray down with fresh clean water and let dry and it's still lubricated. Over the past 5 years or so, my work gear still looks like new. No groves that is not supposed to be there. And my synchronous line guide moves back and forth faster when casting limiting the resistance.
Quote from: lifeofRiley on March 22, 2017, 05:59:36 AM
There's some interesting info here on why greasing a levelwind is a good thing and how oil can lead to premature wear and damage of a worm gear. I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong, do what works best for you. Do note that Shimano and Diawa reels both come with greased worm gears.
http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic.php?t=69890
You might want to read that thread again more carefully. There is a diversity of opinion expressed in the thread.
QuoteIn my 33 years in business I have seen more damaged worm gears because of grease. Grease holds grit and basically turns into cutting oil.................
This comment gets my vote. Grease is a major problem resulting in damaged worm drives. Gravel cannot adhere to oil. It's that simple. But grease will trap large particles in the worm groove and it only takes one. The pawl will push it to the end of the machined groove and then ride over the top of it gouging a new path and destroying the worm drive.
TSI also gets endorsed in the thread as it should.
Claiming that grease is a better alternative because oil traps dirt and causes problems is pure nonsense and to suggest using it on a TDZ is just crazy in my opinion.
~
Quote from: exp2000 on March 22, 2017, 10:01:47 AM
Quote from: lifeofRiley on March 22, 2017, 05:59:36 AM
There's some interesting info here on why greasing a levelwind is a good thing and how oil can lead to premature wear and damage of a worm gear. I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong, do what works best for you. Do note that Shimano and Diawa reels both come with greased worm gears.
http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic.php?t=69890
You might want to read that thread again more carefully. There is a diversity of opinion expressed in the thread.
You might want to read my last post more carefully. Like the part where I say "do what works best for you." And also the part about the two largest Japanese reel companies greasing all their levelwinds. I am well aware of the diversity of opinions on this subject. I have never had a worm gear wrecked by gravel. I will be trying tsi 321 soon as I think it will make for a cleaner reel.
for more than forty years in reel service would say that reels with levelwind require more service than any other reel!
If dry, oiled or greased, you will find more or less particles at both ends. Depends on the water where the reels will be fished.
In my opinion most damage occurs to the grooves from a not free floating pawl. Regular inspecton during the season is advisable.
On small levelwinds i apply a mixture of 80pct Reelx with 20pct CorrosionX HD. On larger like in Penn GTI320/321 etc. a light coat of pure HD. In tournament BC SpeedX.
I would still go with tsi321 - any grease just slows down and gums up a level wind ;)
I have no complaints about TSI321. But, if it sticks to metal, doesn't trap gunk and all that stuff, then why not put TSI put on the bearings instead of grease? TSI is much easier to remove than grease when it comes time to clean.
-steve
Good thought, Steve --
However, I've always figured one of the functions of Marine Grease -- is to also help keep the salt out.
On freshwater reels, I minimize the grease because it slows the reel down when casting.
On saltwater reels, the grease gets maximized -- but I still do not use grease on the LW.
Just my preference -- not the last word.
Best,
Fred
Interesting discussion, informative too. Never had to change levelwind parts probably 'cause it's the baitcaster version of the lineroller ona spinner. I check both a mine "almost" after every fishing trip. Quick look under a light ana drop a oil for the levelwind. Then test the lineroller on the spinners a couple a days latter(not workin well 'bout 1/2 the time). It's an easy down time thing to do when the commercials are on. Gotta try some a that TSI321.
Gfish
Grease ain't the word - On the Level !
I am seeing a lot of catastrophic failures in levelwind worms lately. The typical scenario goes something like this: A sizeable rock lodges itself in the worm groove. It may be alone or sometimes it may be hiding in a payload of gravel that has made it's way inside. As you crank the reel handle, the lineguide pawl pushes the boulder towards the bitter end of the worm. With nowhere to go, the pawl now climbs over the rock, gouging metal from the machined pattern in worm drive.
Once this happens, the pawl no longer tracks correctly and will attempt to climb over the damaged section on every pass. It may bind up completely, or it might hover at the end of it's travel going nowhere.
So how do you stop rocks lodging in the worm you ask?
1. Prevention: Don't use your reel as a dredge. Surprisingly, this will prevent gravel from lodging in the worm groove.
2. Maintenance: Sneak the discharge straw from a high pressure aerosol can of break cleaner inside the line guide and blast away any gravel that has accumulated around the pawl blade. Hit it again from the other side. Follow up with a light spray of Inox for lubrication.
3. Glue: Finally, don't use rock glue on the levelwind! I am talking about grease here folks. The over application of grease is almost always the prime instigator in this disaster. Instead. apply a light coat of oil to the worm on a regular basis. Better still - use a dry film bonding lubricant: rocks and gravel have little chance of lodging in the levelwind if there is no glue to hold them there.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/KimberleyRodandReel/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/KimberleyRodandReel/)
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How long'ed the levelwind system last with no lubrication, anyone know?
Gfish
The last couple of reels I cleaned, TSI was put on everything, including the gears, and no grease was used. They sound different. It doesn't sound bad, just different. It's too early to say whether they will be ruined or have a normal life.
TSI doesn't seem to emulsify as readily as grease but that may be because it is so thin. You can slosh a little naphtha on the TSI coated parts and they come clean without the need for the sonic cleaner, simple green or any of that routine.
They're small reels. They often get very wet (inside and out) but are unlikely to ever heat up.
-steve
I was planning on coating my level winds with TSI321 after I clean them. So far the only thing I haven't taken apart on my bait casters are the level winds. Are there any problems in getting a level wind put back together in proper working order?
Quote from: wfjord on March 23, 2017, 04:05:09 PM
I was planning on coating my level winds with TSI321 after I clean them. So far the only thing I haven't taken apart on my bait casters are the level winds. Are there any problems in getting a level wind put back together in proper working order?
It's a little different for each reel. But over time you develop techniques that make the procedure a little easier.
I would suggest that you lay the parts out in order of disassembly and take a photo for reference.
~
Quote from: wfjord on March 23, 2017, 04:05:09 PM
I was planning on coating my level winds with TSI321 after I clean them. So far the only thing I haven't taken apart on my bait casters are the level winds. Are there any problems in getting a level wind put back together in proper working order?
Three hands would be helpful sometimes :->. Lacking that, Alan Tani's rubber band trick in the thread below works well.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=659.0
Quote from: mike1010 on March 23, 2017, 09:29:49 PM
Three hands would be helpful sometimes :->. Lacking that, Alan Tani's rubber band trick in the thread below works well.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=659.0
That'll be a useful link---I have an old 309 needing a major overhaul.
I usually service about 50 plus penn 330 level winds and numerous Okuma convectors and shimano tekota's that guides use for bottom fish (lings and halibut). I always grease the level winds as they guides seem to forget to oil or lube during the season. It seems to work well as long as the reel stays on the boat and does not get exposed to a dirty environment. The failures of the level winds that I see are usually caused by putting extreme pressure on the reel while hung up on the bottom or rust caused by a lack of lube. for fresh water casting reels I use a drop of oil.
I disassembled, cleaned, and lubed a Shimano levelwind with TSI321 last night. Everything went back together beautifully and without a hitch (on the 3rd try). Got seven more levelwinds to go, including the 309 and a 109, but I'm not necessarily in a hurry to get to them. As levelwinds go, I'm not not sure TSI321 offers any functional improvement over a light oil, but it's certainly not going to hurt and may keep it cleaner.
Just remember you can fully assemble the 309 and 109 before putting the worm gear in place. The line guard does need to be in place.
Ive never greased any worm gear but for charter boats in fresh water grease that sounds like the thing to do.
How have the Okuma Convectors working out for you. I get a few in the shop every year. Most of them have drag and levelwind problems. Here they try to use them for bottom fishing way beyond their means.
Keith
Quote from: handi2 on March 27, 2017, 11:11:56 PM
Just remember you can fully assemble the 309 and 109 before putting the worm gear in place. The line guard does need to be in place.
Ive never greased any worm gear but for charter boats in fresh water grease that sounds like the thing to do.
How have the Okuma Convectors working out for you. I get a few in the shop every year. Most of them have drag and levelwind problems. Here they try to use them for bottom fishing way beyond their means.
Keith
Keith, thanks for the tips on the 309 & 109. I don't have any Okumas --the next closest levelwind I have is an old Diawa 47H.
.
the other reason I don't like to put grease on the level wind assembly, often the pawl is also assembled with grease. the grease gets tacky and the pawl gets stuck in one position...kiss your pawl good buy because it will not turn.
Quote from: handi2 on March 27, 2017, 11:11:56 PM
Just remember you can fully assemble the 309 and 109 before putting the worm gear in place. The line guard does need to be in place.
Ive never greased any worm gear but for charter boats in fresh water grease that sounds like the thing to do.
How have the Okuma Convectors working out for you. I get a few in the shop every year. Most of them have drag and levelwind problems. Here they try to use them for bottom fishing way beyond their means.
Keith
All of the reels I mentioned get fished way beyond there intended use. Most of the folks up here fish with 100 lb braid or more, one pound jigs and often fish in 300 plus feet of water. I have to say that I have not had an issue with the grease on the worm gears but it may be that with the heavy use its thinned out fast. I have more issues with rusty pawls from the lack of maintenance. many of the guides have their bottom fish gear up in the rocket launchers and they get tons of salt spray.The convectors are not as hard on the worms as the penn 330's but they corrode badly on the eccentric clutch and the original drag washers need to be changed out to CF.