This model number was listed by several different descriptions in the Penn catalog, according to "Penn Chronology" by Mike Cacioppo. Please post your questions about the chronological history of this reel, or your reel, in this post.
I have a question...does anyone here know what order the different side plates came out? I've seen plain, that cross hatched center, and the ol' lighthouse scene. Also I've seen a myriad of handle types on them...did they just change a lot through the years?
OK, nobody's interested in the first question,^ I'll try another. :D
My 180 has a steel main gear...would it be noticeably smoother with bronze? No need for extra strength here, looking for a more fluid feel. What is the "feel" of a damaged gear? Maybe my steel gear is worn/damaged. ???
Quote from: mo65 on June 30, 2016, 01:53:20 PM
I have a question...does anyone here know what order the different side plates came out? I've seen plain, that cross hatched center, and the ol' lighthouse scene. Also I've seen a myriad of handle types on them...did they just change a lot through the years?
Hopefully Mike and Ray will be around to help me here... Looking at the pictures in the catalogs it would appear that the year of introduction, 1939, the right handle side plate was plain. The picture in 1940 catalog clearly shows a stippled head plate. I am unable to tell from the catalogs when the picture side plates were introduced in this model. Ray and Mike will probably know.
Sid
Quote from: mo65 on July 09, 2016, 01:38:45 PM
OK, nobody's interested in the first question,^ I'll try another. :D
My 180 has a steel main gear...would it be noticeably smoother with bronze? No need for extra strength here, looking for a more fluid feel. What is the "feel" of a damaged gear? Maybe my steel gear is worn/damaged. ???
Here is my understanding: the softer the metal of which the gear is constructed, the smoother the feel.... so yes, steel being harder than bronze, the steel gears would initially have a smoother feel. Once the gears are broken in and have worn each other a little, I doubt there would be a noticeable difference in the feel.
My understanding of the "feel" of a damaged gear is that there is a "catch" or "thump" felt when the damaged tooth is engaging it's mate. A damaged main gear will feel rough once in a 180 degree rotation of the handle (assuming one tooth is damaged). A damaged pinion will feel rough several times in a 180 degree handle rotation, depending on the actual gear ratio of the reel.
If you suspect a damaged gear tooth you can disassemble the reel and look carefully, with good light and magnification, at each tooth of each gear. I think that will reveal any damage that may be present.
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on July 09, 2016, 04:34:02 PM
The picture in 1940 catalog clearly shows a stippled head plate.
Thanks for answering Sid! I'm thinking what you referred to as "stippled" was what I referred to as "cross hatched"...that is the plate my reel has. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on July 09, 2016, 05:26:39 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on July 09, 2016, 04:34:02 PM
The picture in 1940 catalog clearly shows a stippled head plate.
Thanks for answering Sid! I'm thinking what you referred to as "stippled" was what I referred to as "cross hatched"...that is the plate my reel has. 8)
Yup. That's what Mike calls it in his books. I don't know, and it's an interesting question, whether the stippled right side plate was matched with both the stippled left at first and later the picture plate left.
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on July 09, 2016, 04:43:23 PM
Here is my understanding: the softer the metal of which the gear is constructed, the smoother the feel.
That is what I was thinking.
What I'm feeling when tuning the handle is not a thump or bump of a single tooth...more like about half of the gear. Sorta like a growling sound on about half of a full revolution. I've looked at both the main and the pinion...and they look surprisingly sharp. I've noticed this growling on several Penns so maybe this is just the nature of the beast.
I know nothing about growling gears, but if you remove your pinion and still feel it it's coming from something else - maybe the top of the drag stack touching the side plate.
Chapter 15 of Mike's green book covers these Light Tackle reels, the 160, 165, 170, 180, 185 and 190. He writes that the stippled right side plate was always present (so the picture in the '39 catalog isn't as clear as it appears), and the left side plate could be either stippled or have that one (and only that one) scene that was the only scene present on any of those Light Tackle reels, including your 180. The way I read it both stippled and picture plates were used on the left side plate simultaneously through the years.... maybe he can clarify if I am misunderstanding.
These Light Tackle Bay reels were later offered with two stands, as Penn offered them with a fresh water stand as well as the standard saltwater stand, and, as Penn stated in their catalog this was their first foray into the freshwater market.
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on July 09, 2016, 06:07:34 PM
Penn stated in their catalog this was their first foray into the freshwater market.
Very interesting Sid! This is what I'm planning to do with my 180...freshwater.
Mo, if you loosen the bridge screws on your 180 1/2 turn each, does the growling go away or change at all? Loosening the screws a little will allow the top of the drag stack a little more clearance...
I'll check that when I reassemble Sid...she's currently in pieces on a paper plate...LOL! I'm looking for a plastic spool, and eBay has not been friendly. No way am I paying $25 for one! :'(
Quote from: mo65 on July 09, 2016, 05:38:36 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on July 09, 2016, 04:43:23 PM
Here is my understanding: the softer the metal of which the gear is constructed, the smoother the feel.
That is what I was thinking.
What I'm feeling when tuning the handle is not a thump or bump of a single tooth...more like about half of the gear. Sorta like a growling sound on about half of a full revolution. I've looked at both the main and the pinion...and they look surprisingly sharp. I've noticed this growling on several Penns so maybe this is just the nature of the beast.
Gears run smoother when two metals (one softer, and one harder) interact together.
Generally, the knowledgeable old Penn engineers would use a steel pinion, along with a bronze or brass main.
Pinion turns many times more than the main -- smoother meshing, plus the steel pinion will "break in" the bronze main over a short period of fishing. When replacing one or both gears -- I find often that they will work OK -- but are noisy.
As for a distortion, or too sharp of an edge that has not crowned evenly -- at a spot on the gear -- with a magnifying glass, I can generally find the issue -- then very carefully file it with a microfile.
Then I use a valve lapping paste or grinding compound on the gears -- reassemble the reel -- place it on the line winder -- and let it work in over around 10 minutes at a medium speed -- in both directions for an even tooth crown.
Toothpaste works too.
Then disassemble -- clean everything in the ultrasonic cleaner using simple green to remove any tiny metal bits -- dry the gears -- reassemble again using either Penn or Yamaha Marine grease.
Put it on the line winder again for around 5 minutes at a steady medium speed.
Generally will eliminate 90% to 95% of the growling noise -- and will be smoother than when brand new.
This works on good spinners, as well as conventionals -- if your gears are pot metal, or soft alloys -- this technique will not work very well.
Got this idea from the bicycle and slot car guys -- modified it a little for reels -- and if in a jam -- it works pretty well in most cases.
When two gears are upgraded SS -- sometimes this will lessen the growl mesh sound -- but never really eliminate it completely. That is the nature of steel on steel. They will always fight each other -- neither one winning.
Have used Chemico valve grinding or lapping paste. It is cheap, has silicon carbide bits in it -- and comes in extra fine to extra coarse. Generally only use fine if not too bad. If really noisy, I start with coarse -- clean everything out -- then move to fine for a repeat operation.
Just make sure the cleaning process in between applications is complete and thorough -- otherwise the reel will die before its time.
Best,
Fred
Great info Fred! Thanks for posting this...I'm sure I'll find this very useful! 8)
That's awesome info Fred. Thanks for sharing.
Hey fellas...I think I may have found the source of the growling and rough feel. I took the gear off the sleeve today and...:o The pic clearly shows the worn down area of the sleeve where the gear rides!
Hi Mo, good discovering --
You can chuck up the sleeve in a drill press with tape on the top of the sleeve where the chuck teeth hold it.
Use a file and emory cloth tape -- finish off with "0000" steel wool. Clean it up with simple green and water.
Then, check inside the main gear -- for anything that may have caused the gouging.
If any rough on the ID -- clean it up also with a drill bit (in reverse, not biting in) -- or a round sanding disc.
Clean and try it out.
Or, just replace what is needed with new or used.
Good luck on this project.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: foakes on July 13, 2016, 02:06:12 AM
Check inside the main gear -- for anything that may have caused the gouging.
The inside of the gear looks fine...probably since it's steel...the brass sleeve took all the wear. I slipped it onto a new sleeve and fit was fine. I think I may still give the gears a spin in the lapping paste for good measure. ;)
Well...now I have an entirely different conundrum...the new gear sleeve is excessively loose on the bridge post. And I mean excessive...laterally and radially...unusable! Has anyone experienced this major difference in sleeve/post fitment? The gear sleeve is a new one from Scott's, and the reel is an oldie, late 40s/early 50s. Was there a design change somewhere along the line? :-\
Yup, I've had this happen to me on several old reels. Some old bridges have a smaller post. I ended up replacing the bridge, too.
George
Quote from: George4741 on July 13, 2016, 07:48:33 PM
Yup, I've had this happen to me on several old reels. Some old bridges have a smaller post. I ended up replacing the bridge, too.
George
I'll probably have to do the same George, as this reel is going to be fished. If I was only going to shelf it I'd just leave the old worn parts in and call it good. Good to at least know I'm not alone...hee hee! ;D
After doing a 180 Baymaster search I see the gear post/sleeve issue is pretty common. I have another 180 I bought to get the tail plate, eccentric spring, and a better looking non-handle side bearing. I pulled the bridge from that one and it fits the new gear sleeve great. Matter of fact...the sleeve on it's post is good as new...so I may just use it. My 180 project is coming along fine. 8)
Very nice!
Two 180's that I am getting ready for Drifting on Lake Erie for Channels. Not sure exactly what I will upgrade yet. They still Have leather drag plates that I greased and are very smooth. One set I adapted (cut) are from a Daiwa 27SH. Had to cut the center hole a little bigger. Actually, I may put lighter line on them and use them trolling for Browns and Steelhead in shallow over the next couple of months. Great little reels and I like them a lot.
Nice pair brother! Careful on going down in test; not sure what's on there but I spooled ole-skool Stren Hivis orange 17lb on one of mine and it borderlines going into plate.
Thanks, glad you brought that up. 30lb on there now, mostly for abrasion. Will probably go with 20lb clear and step that down with a fairly long ( 10 foot or so) 12lb leader. Don't want to go much lower because they slam those lures in shallow water when trolling. The drags on these are perfect for this though.
Thorhammer is right...you gotta be careful with line. Mine even grabs 20lb. mono, but I was casting, trolling might not be an issue. I finally settled on some black Dacron I had, not even sure of what pound it is, but the 180 loves it! 8)
Mo, I will figure it out or I might have to dig out the modern day line counters. That will make the boys ( Both Captains) happy. They think a 3 year old Tekota 500 is Vintage. I like to challenge them with the older stuff. Heck, even the boat is a 1962 Runabout.
It looks like your reels have aluminum spools...so you may not have any issues. My spools were older plastic and chrome varieties. Also I was casting light lures...basically looking for trouble...lol! All I know is the Dacron was the runaway winner on my reel...and I'm using a 17lb. mono leader about 10ft. long.
I here ya about the kids...hee hee...they just can't grasp the concept of a company making a particular model for years and years. Everything is "throw away" now, and, getting harder for me to grasp! :D
Rehab'ed my brothers 180 Baymaster. Soaked and cleaned all the parts. Was gonna keep it stock and fish it, after reading Mo's posts. Indeed it's a very light weight vintage Penn- a seemingly good 20lb. reel, for fresh. or saltwater.
This'ns got the got the 30-180"S" stand( no clamp holes, so what makes it a saltwater stand?). Couldn't live with the handle/knob though, TOO SMALL! Also, looks like the previous owner kocked out the oil port & pushed the knob down further, then peened the brass shaft over the chrome shaft.
Had to replace the dog(worn out) n' leaf spring, and there's too much "start-up" at the higher drag settings with the old leather washers, so I ordered an HT set.
Looks like aluminum spools are real hard to find(29-100L) so I guess I'mna stick with the plastic one. Sounds like dacron and mono might work(as per Mo) with the plastic spool.
While back I godda Abu Revo-Toro Beast (based ona exellent review by John Tuttle and my need for a faster geared inshore baitcaster) and it came with 2 extra(3 diffrent styles, total) handles. I cut down the double knobed one, milled the square hole to fit the 180 gearsleeve and it seems perfect! It's very light-weight(aluminum & EVA)handle/knob. This and the ht's may be my only mods I do, unless Ican get the Al. Spool, hint hint.
This seems like a nice light-weight alternative to the other small vintage Penn's such as a LB 60. Hope it casts good...
The old handle's a "2689", stamped just like that, sans the quote marks. Smallest Penn knob I ever seen.
Gfish
Nice! Love seeing all the info on these reels, great ideas to keep in mind!
Quote from: Gfish on January 29, 2018, 09:59:51 PM
The old handle's a "2689", stamped just like that, sans the quote marks. Smallest Penn knob I ever seen.
Gfish
I don't think that's a Penn handle Gfish, Penn's handle number on conventionals is always 24-something. I like your handle WAY better...great work! 8)
Quote from: Gfish on January 29, 2018, 09:59:51 PM
This'ns got the got the 30-180"S" stand( no clamp holes, so what makes it a saltwater stand?).
The saltwater stand's "foot" was wider, to fit saltwater rods, and the freshwater stand's foot was more narrow.
I believe the freshwater stand also has bent feet to raise the reel up off of the rod.
Quote from: mo65 on January 29, 2018, 11:11:29 PM
Quote from: Gfish on January 29, 2018, 09:59:51 PM
The old handle's a "2689", stamped just like that, sans the quote marks. Smallest Penn knob I ever seen.
Gfish
I don't think that's a Penn handle Gfish, Penn's handle number on conventionals is always 24-something. I like your handle WAY better...great work! 8)
Yer right! That handle is a miniature replica though,- the number is the only thing not "Penn-like".
[/quote]
Quote from: mo65 on July 09, 2016, 01:38:45 PM
OK, nobody's interested in the first question,^ I'll try another. :D
My 180 has a steel main gear...would it be noticeably smoother with bronze? No need for extra strength here, looking for a more fluid feel. What is the "feel" of a damaged gear? Maybe my steel gear is worn/damaged. ???
Fred, in his post is right about steel on steel gears. However there is another way that also works well & can work well in hushing noisy gears. If you talk with many long range fishermen or people who worked on boats you will some times hear them talk about how a new reel feels smoother after a big fish or two. This same thing happens with revolvers as they are fired over time. Not quite but kind of like an action job. Whats taking place is the the steel on all surfaces are wearing smooth with opposing parts meshing & fitting together.
If parts are tight on your reel set your drag as heavy as you can while still aheiving smooth drag. Tie line to something heavy or fixed back up pulling line off reel reel up & repeat as needed. You could use polish compound it's not needed. But if you do you'll need to go slow. All my Baja / US113's received (stainless gear set) this treatment & came out noticably smoother with less gear noise than prior.
Using lay out fluid before & after has shown the gear teeth to fit better afterward... Jeff
Quote from: mo65 on July 09, 2016, 01:38:45 PM
OK, nobody's interested in the first question,^ I'll try another. :D
My 180 has a steel main gear...would it be noticeably smoother with bronze? No need for extra strength here, looking for a more fluid feel. What is the "feel" of a damaged gear? Maybe my steel gear is worn/damaged. ???
Mo, I have noticed on these smaller gears the brass or steel fee about the same. I believe it's related to its size., when you jump to the larger size, as the 5-500, you could really feel it then.
These are 8-10 lb reels, no need for the ss sleeve or steel gears... with that said, all of mine have both :).
Sal
Quote from: xjchad on January 29, 2018, 10:32:45 PM
Nice! Love seeing all the info on these reels, great ideas to keep in mind!
Yes...lots of valuable info here...I learned a few new tricks while stumbling through the little 180. It's interesting that the roughness I was feeling in the gear was actually caused by this gear sleeve in the photo. To this date, it is the only sleeve I've encountered that was damaged so bad. Replacing it was instant gratification...bye bye growl. 8)