I've mentioned this reel before and decided show you how it came together. Some of the "old-school" guys assembled reels like this back in the day, but I'm sure it won't be replacing anyone's 113H Yellowtail Special anytime soon. ;D After all, it has a slow 1:2 gear ratio and smaller drags.
This Penn 113 was an inexpensive impulse bid on ebay and I didn't plan on fishing with it. So, I was pleasantly surprised when I found out it has a steel main gear. This made it a good candidate for a stainless steel gear sleeve and a 1+5 drag stack. I think it can take a maximum drag of 12-15lb with 40 lb mono. I like my reels narrow and knew a Longbeach 66 spool will fit, IF I can get a narrow frame. I first thought about using a Tiburon YTS frame (a rather expensive route) but I got lucky and found a less expensive Newell RBYT foot and bars.
Here is the result.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/senator113001.jpg)
The original Senator 113 spool shown with the narrower Longbeach 66 spool and Newell parts.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/senator113002.jpg)
The SS gear sleeve and steel main gear, along with the now standardized 1+5 drag washer stack.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/senator113004.jpg)
On my Senators I always place the bellville washer on top of the spacer sleeve as shown. It is easier to replace when it looses it's shape.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010380.jpg)
The assembled reel. My only concern is the 3-piece spool distorting with the use of mono. We'll see....
Very Nice George. Now, show us some fish. ;D
Very nice George. The 5-66 gear can take a little more abuse than the 5-60, but I would keep it at around 12lb.
Isn't it something how Penn has the narrow, standard and wide for most of their reels, well only up to the 6/0.
On your particular reel, the 66, 67, and 68 parts will give you those, I'm sure you already know that.
I wish one day I'll get to see one of my favorite reel, narrowed. Penn has the standard and wide but not narrow.
I sent an email to Steve Carson and asked if Penn would consider a narrow kit on that reel, Steve doesn't think that it would ever happen, that doesn't stop us here though ;).
By the way, the reel that I'm talking about is the 116A ( 10/0 ), I have a few of those.
A 2.5" aluminum spool and a one piece aliminum frame, this reel would give others a run for their money.
Targeting big game is about torque not speed, the 116A has a 2:1 ratio, along with a 5" spool, low speed and large diameter spool is the key ;)
I'm still hoping George, maybe I'll get to see it one day.
Sal
Thanks for sharing your treasures with us ;)
Very nice, and Alto Mare, why would you need a narrow 10/0?
The 116A 10/0 is a narrow 116 or 12/0,and a 117 14/0 is the comparable version of a narrow 118 16/0 so really the only penns without a narrow version are the 115,110,111.
Lighter, more balanced and more manageable.
Quote from: saltydog on September 16, 2012, 02:30:23 PM
The 116A 10/0 is a narrow 116 or 12/0,and a 117 14/0 is the comparable version of a narrow 118 16/0 so really the only penns without a narrow version are the 115,110,111.
All depends on how you look at it saltydog. I'm not just talking 2.5" width spool, I also mentioned an aluminum spool and frame. I've never seen an aluminum spool on a 10/0.
This would be the reel, not like that fancy stuff that they're coming out with today. Older design were better...just my opinion.
Sal
Yes I would agree,anything we can do to improve any of the older designs is all game for me.I love my old penns and always look to improve them.I am getting ready to work on improving 2 112 and a 112H,and I always wondered why they never made an aluminum spool for the 10/0,it would have been a great improvement.But well Penn has given more purchase of there newer lines of reels for those who have to have the newest shiniest toys.I still perfer the old school Penns and buy them when I get a chance over the newer stuff,heck I still use my 50 International I bought 25 years ago second hand from a guy who had it from the 70's.Heck I can buy alot of old Penns for what 1 of the newer reels cost,and more is better.
Thanks for the nice comments, guys. I'm just playing around and trying to show that the age of "frankenreels" doesn't have to be dead.
Quote from: Bryan Young on September 16, 2012, 07:31:39 AM
Very Nice George. Now, show us some fish. ;D
I've been doing a lot of trout fishing in NE Nevada this year. I know, I know, it isn't the same as salt water fishing, but it'll do in a pinch. ;)
Quote from: Bunnlevel Sharker on September 16, 2012, 01:27:18 PM
Very nice, and Alto Mare, why would you need a narrow 10/0?
Some of us, including me, are narrow minded. ;) Seriously though, it's mainly aesthetic appeal for me. I figure that if I need a reel with more line capacity, then I can go with a larger diameter reel, rather than going with a wider version of the same reel.
Quote from: Alto Mare on September 16, 2012, 02:38:07 PM
Quote from: saltydog on September 16, 2012, 02:30:23 PM
The 116A 10/0 is a narrow 116 or 12/0,and a 117 14/0 is the comparable version of a narrow 118 16/0 so really the only penns without a narrow version are the 115,110,111.
All depends on how you look at it saltydog. I'm not just talking 2.5" width spool, I also mentioned an aluminum spool and frame. I've never seen an aluminum spool on a 10/0.
This would be the reel, not like that fancy stuff that they're coming out with today. Older design were better...just my opinion.
Sal
I know what you mean, Sal. After comparing the guts of my 10/0 to the smaller Senators, I can easily see how it's getting into the world of truly big game reels. I can imagine what a brute it would be with a stronger aluminum frame.
BTW I would like to have an aluminum spool for my narrowed 113. I don't think Penn ever made an aluminum spool for the Longbeach 66. Perhaps Newell did. Does anyone know?
George,
I really like your 113. I have an extra 113 and I think that will be one of my winter projects this year.
John
So,
I happen to have two Black Side 4/0s, and Long Beaches are reasonably available and not all that expensive. I would do this only to have something different. Any reason I couldn't use the seat and bars from a long beach? It wouldn't be as strong as Nwell or Tib parts, but they would be a matched set of conversation pieces.
Ron
Thanks John.
Ron, the 113 has a 6-screw foot, and the Longbeach a 4-screw foot. That's why I went with the Newell reel foot. I also assembled it to have something a little different. It's only advantage (if any) over a 113H YTS is my reel has a little more torque when cranking. Certainly a narrowed 113H will outshine it in every other way.
thank you very much for your photos and all of this wonderful info. this is definitely wrench-worthy! if you would send me a pm with your shipping info, i will send it out. please copy and paste this in with your pm, otherwise i might include a bill!!!!! hard for me to keep track of things...... :-\
Nice reel
Quote from: George4741 on September 16, 2012, 07:16:11 AM
My only concern is the 3-piece spool distorting with the use of mono. We'll see....
Fill the spool at least 1/2 way with Spectra or Dacron and mono problems are reduced. Better yet is a topshot from 15' to 200' or more depending on need and preference and a full spool of braided line.
Quote from: alantani on September 20, 2012, 02:52:46 AM
thank you very much for your photos and all of this wonderful info. this is definitely wrench-worthy! if you would send me a pm with your shipping info, i will send it out. please copy and paste this in with your pm, otherwise i might include a bill!!!!! hard for me to keep track of things...... :-\
Thank you, Alan. However, you sent me a wrench two weeks ago. I'm not worthy of a second one. ;D
Quote from: Keta on September 20, 2012, 03:01:10 AM
Nice reel
Quote from: George4741 on September 16, 2012, 07:16:11 AM
My only concern is the 3-piece spool distorting with the use of mono. We'll see....
Fill the spool at least 1/2 way with Spectra or Dacron and mono problems are reduced. Better yet is a topshot from 15' to 200' or more depending on need and preference and a full spool of braided line.
Thanks, Lee. Will do.
I know this is old, but I keep digging and finding information. What makes the Senator more desirable? The way I see it is the 66 has an open top, 2.5 gear ratio, the same gear sleeve and drags. Will the outside rings and 3 screw stand increase rigidity to the point that it offsets the 66s advantages?
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on October 17, 2012, 04:06:17 AM
I know this is old, but I keep digging and finding information. What makes the Senator more desirable? The way I see it is the 66 has an open top, 2.5 gear ratio, the same gear sleeve and drags. Will the outside rings and 3 screw stand increase rigidity to the point that it offsets the 66s advantages?
Ron
1. Some, including myself, prefer the looks of the Senator with the chrome beauty rings.
2. For advertising sake, Penn takes some liberties with the gear ratios on many of their reels. The Longbeach is really 1:2.28. So, miniscule advantage there. If I wanted speed I would have narrowed my 113H.
3. I doubt anyone will notice the rigidity, or lack of, in the practical sense.
I wanted it to be an exercise in the tradition of the old days when reel enthusiasts' would modify a reel to suit their needs (whether real or imagined) and fill a gap in the Penn line. They are sometimes called "frankenreels". If I look at the bottom line, it isn't worth it. It isn't going to take the fishing world by storm and I doubt more than one or two others modify their 113. I like narrow reels and I just wanted it. ;D
Great, just so everyone understands, I'm looking for a couple cheap longbeaches to convert my 2 113s. I was just wondering if anyone knew of a significant advantage. To me 2.28 to 2.0 is still a 1/8th increase in speed. If this reel is fished at the top of the spool that adds several inches of line per crank, I like that idea, but I to like the beuty rings and the extra protection the rings offer the sideplates.
Ron
So,
If you were going to troll these, what would be the recommended line?
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on October 19, 2012, 05:57:40 AM
So,
If you were going to troll these, what would be the recommended line?
Ron
I'm debating between 40 and 50lb line (actually dacron topped with mono to prevent spool spread) at 12-15lb drag. I gotta mention, though, I have a steel main gear and a stainless gear sleeve. I think mine will hold up more than those reels with the brass/bronze main gear. With them I wouldn't exceed 40lb. Hopefully some of the other members will give their recommendations.
Quote from: noyb72 on October 17, 2012, 07:42:41 PM
I'm looking for a couple cheap longbeaches to convert my 2 113s.
Ron, are you thinking of narrowing your 113's?
George
I was done thinking about it when I saw this thread. I'm the kind of guy that can't leave enough alone. Besides, If you narrow a 113 with a 66 then you can use all your spare parts to make a 67. I've got a stainless sleeve and drags coming. I want to use these (the 113 narrow) row trolling just outside the surf.
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on October 20, 2012, 02:43:24 AM
I'm the kind of guy that can't leave enough alone.
Ron
Hmmm, where have I seen this before. ;) Ron, you fit in with the rest of the folks here. ;D
Thanks to George for sharing his Penn 113 with us I have set up two 113's. I will use one for trolling with 65# braid and a 50 yard top shot of 50# mono. The other reel I will set up with 50# braid spliced to 65# braid with a short top shot of 40# mono or FC.
John
Yah John, yours with the Accurate frame is gorgeous! Mine won't look anythin like that.
Ron
Thanks Ron. It will be very interesting to see how the gears hold up to a 50# tuna.
John
John, you went first class. But then, you often do. I remember the photos of your Penn Internationals. Classy all the way.
Ron, I want to clarify my line recommendations. Alan (if I may quote you, Alan) recommended in one thread that the 113 with a stainless gear sleeve is a 40lb reel with 12lb drag. I imagine that is with a brass main gear. With a steel main gear I think I can push mine a little more.
One more thing, my 113 benched at 23lb drag with the 1+5 drag stack, so its possible to get into trouble quickly and overstress things. I'll just have to be disciplined and not overdue it. ;D
I definitely prefer to use 75% or less of my drag setting. I know I have 1 brass gear, I need to crack open the other to see what it has. Out of my four current projects, I ended up with a 113H with accurate gears, a 112H with a steel gear that I have a Tuna Special kit for and the two 113s. They will all end up with stainless sleeves and all the drag I can stuff into them. I've caught good sized thresher sharks (hung over both sides of a 14 foot beam boat) on a 4/0 not set up anywhere near as well, so I think my spread will be ready for whatever I want to play with in a 13 foot Melonseed. I love reading Hemmingway, but I don't know that I'm ready to redo the "Old Man and the Sea"!
If anyone is willing to part with two steel main gears or a 66 for a decent price, I'm in the market.
Ron
Ron,
I have an extra set of 113 steel gears you can have. Send me a message with your address and I will send them out on Monday.
John
Quote from: George4741 on October 17, 2012, 06:49:00 PM
it isn't worth it. It isn't going to take the fishing world by storm and I doubt more than one or two others modify their 113. I like narrow reels and I just wanted it. ;D
Yup on every point.
So,
I opened up my last 113 and it had a steel gear. Santa in a Bryan Young suit dropped off a bunch of goodies last night and so I went to work. It now has a 5+1 drag with the fiber washer on the bottom, I'll swap it over to Carbontex here shortly, A steel sleeve, oil and grease wherever it's supposed to be. By the way, it is surprising if you screw up the dog and the reel turns backward!!
I will put this in a 66 spool and bars as soon as the reel shows up, so I didn't take anytime polishing or cleaning. The reel started with zero free spool, now it has about 12-15 seconds with no line! Can't wait for it to go narrow and get fished. Now all I need is another beater 66 to put John's gears in. I'm not shure if I'll put 2 67s together with all the spare parts or part them out.
Ron
very nice! santa in a bryan suit! gotta remember that one..... ;D
Ron,
What will you use for a reel foot on your narrowed 113? A Newell or a full Accurate or Tib frame?
George
I have a Newell stand coming for one...and I'm playing with the idea of an adapter that will allow me to use the 66 stand for the other, their are a few other ideas retling around in my head.
Ron
An adapter would be a novel idea. The Newells are getting harder to find.
I read somewhere how some of the old-school guys would slightly flatten out a 30-99 stand to use on some of their first narrowed 4/0 Senators. Of course, -99 stands are now rarer than hens teeth. I don't know if all six screw holes lined up. :-\
My big issue will be seeing if the 66 holes line up with the 113 outer holes, or if the spacing is different.
Ron
You guys are amazing - I google things concerning reels I'm working on, or considering buying, and I get directed here :)
I have limited experience, but I am learning...........great thread here.........
I found it interesting that there were steel main gears and this info got me wondering, and looking......
Is it possible to accurately see if the main gears are steel from a picture?? In my search, I came across the following pictures of gears for sale, they sure look steel to me, but the description does not say.
Can you tell anything from these pictures :)
Yes, they all look steel to me. Hopefully they'll send send you the gear pictured and you will be OK.
Also, welcome to the forum, SeaDawg.
yes, these are all steel, but they are plain high carbon steel and they will rust. these are not hardened stainless steel gears like the accurate or newell gear sets.
Alan,
I would be shocked if they weren't hardened. All steel can be heat treated and is almost always the case. The hardening doesn't make it corrosion resistant, but if these gears were dead soft they would deform and wear quicker than bronze.
Ron
Thanks for the welcome & responses :)
The third photo down looks like some kind of SS. 400 series SS is magnetic and will "rust" but the rusty one (second photo) looks like iron oxide rust not SS rust.
George, great post. Those oldtimers weren't afraid to try to make their reels better for their use. You inspire us. As for the gear in the second pic. I had a ss gear that looked like that until I cleaned the old dried brown lube off it. It's hard to tell sometimes from a pic though. Bob
Bob, thank you for the kind words. I'm having a lot of fun here. As you probably see from other posts, there are a number of members out there improving their reels in ways Penn ever envisioned.
Just an FYI. The bars from a 113HL of course fit a 113 (nice upgrade). but they also can be made to fit a LongBeach 67 by drilling and tapping two holes in each bar. Add an aluminum spool and a few stainless parts and it makes a nice reel. I did this to a friends 67 that had sentimental value and he ws very happy.
That is pretty much what we are doing here, only with Newell parts and a Long Beach 66 spool to make a YTS. I have 2 66s on the way and am really considering just Newellizing the 66s to take advantage of the higher gear ratio and the open top. The 67 idea is great, you end up with a 4/0 that is stronger and open topped with a higher gear ratio than the 4/0 and less cost than the 113H.
Ron
Well George, can't thank you enough for this thread.......you inspired me to build one of these, I'm gonna call mine a "Grouper Special" instead of a Yellowtail Special :)
I am retired and my wife & I travel extensively in our RV - we are wintering in Florida atm, I fully intend to give this reel a workout sooner than later.........gotta be a Grouper around here somewhere :)
I used a Newell Reel Base, and there is a guy on eBay that sells stainless cross posts for about any size Penn reel, I used those instead of the more costly Newell Posts. I actually had a Stainless 66 spool, but went with a NOS 29M-66 I also found on eBay.
I found this site through Bloodydecks and have been lurking for a little while, there is a ton of knowledge & experience here, thank you again for this thread!
Sweet looking set up Seadawg.
Seadawg, I like "Grouper Special" much better than "Yellowtail Special". That name is more fitting with the slower gear ratio. I was never entirely happy with the moniker I gave it, anyway.
I also like your handle. It looks like the arm is thicker than the standard Penn ones. Did you go with the 1+5 drag stack? Let us know how it performs.
Quote from: noyb72 on October 17, 2012, 07:42:41 PM
Great, just so everyone understands, I'm looking for a couple cheap longbeaches to convert my 2 113s. I was just wondering if anyone knew of a significant advantage. To me 2.28 to 2.0 is still a 1/8th increase in speed. If this reel is fished at the top of the spool that adds several inches of line per crank, I like that idea, but I to like the beuty rings and the extra protection the rings offer the sideplates.
Ron
Hi Ron, if you like the 113 better because of the outside rings just install the long beach [66,67 68] bridge & sleeve on a 113 side plate. The sleeve is just a very little bit off center which can be taken care of with a couple of strokes of a round file. Then you can have a little bit of both worlds. Also use the 66 pinion gear or the pinion gear from a 49 reel & the 66 pinion yoke I've built three of these so far[a YTS, a STD., and a 4/0W]. I built all of mine on Tiburon & Accurate frames. I'm in the middle building two with 113hl & hlw bars, stands, & posts. Rudy
Rudy, am I right in thinking you narrowed a black 113? If so, what spool did you use? I've wondered if Newell ever made some aluminum spools for the longbeach 66. They would certainly cast better than the Penn spool.
George
RowdyW,
HOLY CR$$!!!
Why didn't I think of that? I have the 2 66s now and will be starting on these this weekend. I have 1 Newell base and will start with the 66 bars, may use the stainless ones in the future.
Ron
Quote from: George4741 on January 04, 2013, 03:24:17 AM
Rudy, am I right in thinking you narrowed a black 113? If so, what spool did you use? I've wondered if Newell ever made some aluminum spools for the longbeach 66. They would certainly cast better than the Penn spool.
George
Hi George, use long beach 66 spools to make a narrow 113 . You will have to use either a YTS frame from Tiburon, JVariance, or Accurate or a Newell stand. If you want a 113 4/0wide you can use 113 HLW frames & 68 or 268 spools to make what I call a 113 4/0W. Did you read my post on how to convert the 113 to a L B 66 gear ratio? Rudy
George, I've also been looking for an aluminum spool for that reel, I never seen one. :-\
We have 66-67-68 narrow-standard-wide, we can get aluminum spools for the standard and wide, but not for the narrow.
I believe we can also get ss spools for those three.
I wonder why they do that, maybe to drive us crazy ;D.
Just like the Senator 10/0, I asked Steve Carson a while back if he could help getting us the aluminum spool for that reel, he pretty much said that Penn wasn't interested. Oh well.
Well Sal, I guess that we will have to bring out the 113H YTS if we want to do some casting. But if you want to go after those bottom feeders or go trolling then these "Grouper Specials" will work out just fine. Its just one more Penn reel to have fun with. ;D ;D ;D Rudy
Rudy, looks like you're keeping yourself busy with those penn upgrades, my kind of guy ;)....don't get the wrong idea ;D.
Post some pictures when you get a chance, we would all like to see them.
Sal
Sal, I don't have any equipment to post pictures but I mailed a bunch of photos to Alan & he said he would post them for me. That was in October & I'm still waiting. Rudy ::) ::) ::)
Rudy, is this the post you referred to, on how to convert a 113 to a 66 gear ratio? Or is there another post?
Quote from: RowdyW on January 03, 2013, 01:01:55 AM
Hi Ron, if you like the 113 better because of the outside rings just install the long beach [66,67 68] bridge & sleeve on a 113 side plate. The sleeve is just a very little bit off center which can be taken care of with a couple of strokes of a round file. Then you can have a little bit of both worlds. Also use the 66 pinion gear or the pinion gear from a 49 reel & the 66 pinion yoke I've built three of these so far[a YTS, a STD., and a 4/0W]. I built all of mine on Tiburon & Accurate frames. I'm in the middle building two with 113hl & hlw bars, stands, & posts. Rudy
Thanks for the info, as a few of us have talked about the possibility of changing gear ratios in other reels besides the jigmaster, 113H and 114H.
Quote from: Alto Mare on January 04, 2013, 11:24:19 PM
Rudy, looks like you're keeping yourself busy with those penn upgrades, my kind of guy ;)....don't get the wrong idea ;D.
Sal
Rudy, you are also my kind of guy, and I don't mind if you get the wrong idea, either. ;D ;D
George
Yes George, thats the post. Install the bridge w/sleeve [no other parts] & when you slide the spacer sleeve on you will see where you have to file the plate a little bit for clearance of the spacer. 8) Rudy
Hey George & Ron,did you get any gear ratios changed this weekend? I would like to know how you made out. Did everything go smoothly? Rudy
I haven't changed it yet. I don't have the extra bridge and gears, unless I disassemble my 2/0 and use those parts.
Quote from: RowdyW on January 03, 2013, 01:01:55 AM
The sleeve is just a very little bit off center which can be taken care of with a couple of strokes of a round file.
The holes in the bridge could be brazed and relocated.
Quote from: George4741 on January 08, 2013, 02:24:50 PM
I haven't changed it yet. I don't have the extra bridge and gears, unless I disassemble my 2/0 and use those parts.
I think I bought the last 2 available on e bay yesterday. I guess more will pop up shortly. Most of the used ones need a new sleeve, they always get rounded off at the top. I think that the 98-60 sleeve is the worst offender of this of all sleeves. In H D use they really need s/s sleeves. There are some new 13-49 new pinions available right now on e bay, I just bought 2. By the way the main gears are the same for the 66 & 113. Rudy
Quote from: Keta on January 08, 2013, 02:59:51 PM
The holes in the bridge could be brazed and relocated.
Hi Lee, Then the hole in the bridge for the pinion would have to be relocated also. Unless you have use of a milling machine & can figure out the angles it just isn't worth the time. You only have to file about .020 in. which will only take about 2 or 3 medium strokes. Rudy
I have access to a mill but that works. When I get caught up I'm going to see if I can cut a SS 349 bridge (drawn up now) and put a 114H size shaft and gear sleeve on it.
Quote from: Keta on January 08, 2013, 03:36:34 PM
I have access to a mill but that works. When I get caught up I'm going to see if I can cut a SS 349 bridge (drawn up now) and put a 114H size shaft and gear sleeve on it.
Lee, what I would like to see is a 114h s/s bridge with a s/s sleeve & s/s dog for my 114hlw with Accuplates & Tib HLW frame. Rudy
I have a 114H bridge drawn and waiting. I wish I had my own TIG welder.
I have it apart and the 66 bridge lines up with the sleeve barely rubbing, we'll get it together soon. I have tried the 60 pinion with the 113 bridge and it is only a hair or two to wide.
Ron
Ron, the 3-66 bridge puts the main gear .025 closer to the pinion. I've tried just about every combination possible in my search for a higher ratio & this is the best combonation I have found. After I get 2 more done I'm going to have a bunch of 113 pinions, bridges, & yokes left over. I guess I'll dump them into the Long Beach reels I've been scavaging & dump them. Anybody want to buy L B reels with 2.0 ratio? Did you know that the actual 113 ratio is 1.883 not 2.0 & the L B ratio is2.285 ? Thats a gain of .402. I don't think any more can be done as there is not enough main gear clearance. Now for the 114 6/0 [black plate] Rudy
I did not know the 113 was so slow. I do a lot of live bait fishing and honestly the 2.4 gear ratio is fine, it allows me to bring in a chovie without killing it or using a painfully slow crank rate.
Ron
OK,
Who's selling a Grouper special on EBay?
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on January 12, 2013, 02:24:42 AM
OK,
Who's selling a Grouper special on EBay?
Ron
HEY, THAT LOOKS LIKE MINE! :o But it isn't. ;D Interesting though, and I think there are several ebayers out there who follow what we are doing. I recently saw a double dogged black 114 on ebay, too. I think the phrase "copying is the best form of flattery" applies here, or something like that. :-\
I hope no one minds that I added "Grouper Special" to the title of this thread. With it's slow retrieve ratio it isn't much of a Yellowtail Special anyway, and I'm sure some of the owners of 113H YTS reels, for lack of a better word, "sneer" at the suggestion that I called it such. ;) Anyway, I believe Seadawg is the first one to call it a Grouper Special and Ron is using the moniker, as well.
Has any other reel been called a Grouper Special?
BTW Seadawg, are you the same Seadawg who is selling one on BD? If I may ask, did it come up short in the fishing department, or are you just moving on to something bigger and better?
George
I prefer slow retrieves for all live bait, and my history of catching yellow tail with anything but a live anchovie is zero, so I'm just as likely to fish with the grouper special (I love the name, by the way.)
So, I do believe a grouper special is defined as:
113
66 spool, posts (or substitute), bridge, pinion (I am also using the inner rings to not have holes up top)
Steel main gear
double dogs (are stainless available?)
Newell YTS base (or a tib/accurate etc. frame)
5+1 greased carbon fiber drag washers
SS gear sleeve.
Handle of choice.
I think it looks the best with the ebay SS posts and it keeps the price down, one of Alan's handles is almost mandatory. I need to find a Newell base and my matched pair will be ready to go. I/ve almost got the lugs with no threads showing worked out.
Ron
Thats quite a list but you forgot the 66 pinion yoke. ;D I don't think double dogs are neccessary only 1+5 drags and s/s sleeve,steel main gear & handle of choice optional. Oh and a s/s dog.
Quote from: noyb72 on January 12, 2013, 02:24:42 AM
OK,
Who's selling a Grouper special on EBay?
Ron
Hey anybody know Harry in Winter Haven, Fl.? He says he copied from an associate on another website. It doesn't have the complete set up though.
Lots of guys buy and sell on eBay, I'm one of them and there are many from this site.
I do too but that wasn't the point of that statment. ;D ;D ;D
Doh!
I forgot the yoke. To be honest, I see no reason to NOT double dog every Penn. Simultaneous engagement just makes sense to me on a reel like this that will crank large fish. No reason not to put your best foot forward.
I wasn't complaining about the Ebay sell, I think it's cool to see this idea grow. I envision the grouper special someday being identified as an inexpensive way to get into a world class reel and credit given to George. The lugs and beauty rings of the 113 and the Newell clamp really do make this worth it over a stock 66.
Ron
Quote from: RowdyW on January 12, 2013, 07:09:21 PM
I do too but that wasn't the point of that statment. ;D ;D ;D
I understand, I just wanted to mention that there isn't anything wrong with it.
I'm sure we will see some double dog reels all over ebay soon.
I buy and sell on ebay, but I've never directed anyone here to my stuff, I respect the boss's wishes of not advertising and I'm glad everyone else is doing the same.
Sal
Ron,
I like your criteria for a Grouper Special. I'd better get to work on mine and add the stainless double dogs, or I'll be lagging behind you guys. ;) Last time I checked, Berinson's had the Newell foot. I doubt if I was the first one to narrow a 113. Rudy may have done it before me and I'll bet others did it before Penn came along with the mighty 113H.
About the ebayers, I also don't mind. If what we do breathes new life and interest in the old Penns, it is OK with me.
I've got the Berinson's foot up an another tab. The only reason it isn't mine is because my list is LOOONG!!!!, much longer than the depth of my reel pot of gold. I will get it soon.
Ron
Ron,
I re-read one of your recent posts. Are you eliminating the top post on one of your 113's? If so, let us know how it goes, and, PICTURES PLEASE!
Yes,
I'm working with a machinist in the shipyard, the current plan is to thread the lug for a bushing that will be the correct thread for the post screw, and then shortening the screw. This will give me lugs, no open holes and an open top. I figure that if a 66 works with out a top post then a Senator will to.
I have opened a photobucket account, but I am horrible about taking pictures. I need to work on that because I have learned so much from all your pictures and it would only be fair for me to pay back. When I get all the parts together I'll do a tutorial.
Ron
Ron, if you eliminate the top post you also have 2 less posts front & rear. The only way to reinforce it would be to use a Tiburon topless frame. You said you wanted to strengthen it with double dogs but I think you are weakening it omitting the top bar. When Grouper fishing is casting important? We still have to figure out how to get an aluminum spool in it if we want a decent casting reel. Well back to the drawing boards............. Don't forget a 66 does not have top lugs either. I think that if you run without a top bar you should also leave the lugs off also., then your back to a 66 with a stronger stand or a weaker 113. Just my opinion. :o Rudy
Rudy,
I have thought about everything you said in advance. The first thing I did was ensure that the top bar of the 66 and the top bar of the 113 are in the same place, they are. I understand that I'm losing bars on the 66, but I'm losing the bottom bars and I think the stronger stand will make up the difference. I am building a test stand that will measure deflection under drag. I don't think the top bar is going to be a deal breaker. A bolted assembly is not all that weaker than a solid assembly, at least that's what the engineers that design mods for submarines tell me, I'll figure it out when I can measure actual deflection. If I'm wrong I'll use the Senator rings, if I'm right I'll have an open top Grouper special, which will be cool. I have cast my fully Taniized 113 with a bronze spool and I get great distance from it so I think the effort is worth it.
Again, we won't know until we try! Welcome to the wonderful world of experimentation.
Thanks,
Ron
Ron, I,m not in a dispute with you. Going back to the post from SeaDawg he named it "Grouper Special" with s/s sleeve, s/s posts, & chrome 1 piece 66 spool. So any other modifications you make doesn't mean that your way is the only way to build one. My idea of building one of these is to build an old school narrow 113 4/0 as strong as possible & still look custom. I don't know how big the Grouper are where you are but here in S. Florida they can get as big as a 18 wheeler fuel tank. If one of those gets ahold of your line you will quickly find out your reel is not a special" Grouper Special"no matter what H D parts you add. I'll just call mine a 113 4/0 N 2.0 or 2.3 with the optional gearing. If I'm out for real Grouper the minimum I use is my 114h with a narrow Accurate frame, a minimum of 80# line, & a 130# cable leader and a fully locked down drag. Thats a minimum for REAL Grouper. When they head for home you had better have an anchor in your back pocket ;D ;D till you can get them up 30 or 40 feet. Rudy
I've been pictures of those grouper. Looks like fun work regardless of the gear. The last thing I want to start doing is setting policy. I just want to find out how important the top post is.
Ron
Ron, I don't think a top post is important until you hook up a harness & the rod tries to twist. The engineers at Penn thought so too. Thats why they added the top bar to the 113 & left it off the long beach. After market topless frames have a reinforcing bar on each side to partially make up for it. What will you use for a full circle reinforcing bar? Maybe aluminum side plates would make the top of the plates stiffer & partially make up for the missing top bar. Now we have to figure out how to adapt a aluminum side plate or a thick outer ring to a 113. Rudy
Quote from: RowdyW on January 09, 2013, 07:45:53 AM
Did you know that the actual 113 ratio is 1.883 not 2.0 & the L B ratio is2.285 ? Thats a gain of .402. I don't think any more can be done as there is not enough main gear clearance.
That isn't true in my 113. The main gear has 32 teeth and the pinion has 16. This makes mine a true 1:2.0 ratio.
Well,
Just got done moving to even further LeeWard Oahu (Miili from Kapolei), so I haven't been around much. Like I said I'll test the twist of the frame under load and see if the top bar is necessary. Right now all my reels are in about 15 different boxes and reassembling the jig saw puzzle will be fun. That of course can't start until the honey-do list is complete and the storage shed attached to the house looks more like a garage.
Ron
Quote from: George4741 on January 21, 2013, 01:47:07 AM
Quote from: RowdyW on January 09, 2013, 07:45:53 AM
Did you know that the actual 113 ratio is 1.883 not 2.0 & the L B ratio is2.285 ? Thats a gain of .402. I don't think any more can be done as there is not enough main gear clearance.
That isn't true in my 113. The main gear has 32 teeth and the pinion has 16. This makes mine a true 1:2.0 ratio.
Hi George, I changed the ratio in 4 of my 113's & they all had 17 teeth on the pinions & 32 on the main gear. I don't know whats going on but I marked the gears where I started so I wouldn't recount where I started & I still get 17. Rudy
Quote from: George4741 on January 12, 2013, 04:04:22 AM
I hope no one minds that I added "Grouper Special" to the title of this thread. Anyway, I believe Seadawg is the first one to call it a Grouper Special and Ron is using the moniker, as well.
BTW Seadawg, are you the same Seadawg who is selling one on BD? If I may ask, did it come up short in the fishing department, or are you just moving on to something bigger and better?George
Hey George, I like that you added "Grouper Special" to your thread! And yes, I am selling a "Grouper Special" on BloodyDecks & have the same reel listed on eBay.
No, the reel did not come up short, I love it! The one I posted pictures of here is in my reel bag and thats right where it's staying :) I had the parts so I actually built 2. I am selling the 2nd "Grouper Special".
I am retired, I travel extensively in my RV, and I fish. Went 30 miles in a 14 foot Carolina Skiff named "THUD" yesterday to the Marquesas Key - south of Key West. I have been doing this for almost 3 years with no plans to stop anytime soon :) I have a great wife :)
Anyway, I also buy and rebuild old Penn reels and have been lurking on this site for some time. You guys are freakin awesome!!! I mentioned in my eBay ad that I borrowed the "Grouper Special" design from an "associate on another website" :)
I bought 53 Penn conventional reels from a guy for $600 while traveling through New York/Conn this summer, from a 9/0 to a 77...................he had been yard saleing them for a few years but had just bought his first house :) I tore every one of them down, cleaned out 30-40 years of gunk, repaired what needed repairing, relubed them and sold them all. Except a few that were too far gone, they went into my parts inventory.
Anyhow, when I am up at 5am, not fishing and no reels to work on, I read this site. I have learned SO much here, thank you all very much! I make a little money selling reels, but it all goes right back into some more reels or my next fishing adventure, or my own fishing gear.............
Grouper fishing is closed here (Florida) right now, but when it opens I can hardly wait to get out there with my "Grouper Special" and see what kinds of questions I get from others on the boat! But more importantly, I want to feel that Grouper pulling back against my reel especially built just for him :)
Tight lines George!!
Quote from: RowdyW on January 12, 2013, 11:23:19 AM
Quote from: noyb72 on January 12, 2013, 02:24:42 AM
OK,
Who's selling a Grouper special on EBay?
Ron
Hey anybody know Harry in Winter Haven, Fl.? He says he copied from an associate on another website. It doesn't have the complete set up though.
That's me, but now it's Harry in Key West, Florida :) Next month it will be Harry in Destin, Florida :)
Quote from: RowdyW on January 21, 2013, 05:20:40 AM
Hi George, I changed the ratio in 4 of my 113's & they all had 17 teeth on the pinions & 32 on the main gear. I don't know whats going on but I marked the gears where I started so I wouldn't recount where I started & I still get 17. Rudy
Rudy,
I'm not doubting that you can count. ;) ;D I triple counted mine to be sure of the number of teeth. Probably a change Penn made to the gears at some point. Just another thing to puzzle and frustrate us. :o That there is a slightly larger pinion gear is a good thing to know. It might fit into another project I've been mulling over....
Harry,
I'm glad you like your reel and I hope to hear back on some fishing reports with it soon. It sounds like you are living the dream. Traveling, fishing, supportive wife, etc. Nice!
Some day....
George
New one on me ???
Rudy, you probably ment to say 16 teeth.
can you post a picture of that pinion? The only pinionI know of that would slow down that 5-66 is the 13-349.
I know that's not what you're talking about, it will never work in the 113, well we probably could do it , but that's another project.
Hi Sal, I pulled these gears out of the parts box again & 1 has 17 teeth & 3 have 16 teeth. I got these 4 113's from a head boat that replaced these reels. These reels where really old,beat up, & broken. The outside appearance of these reels is really beat up looking but I repaired,replaced broken parts,new drags, serviced all 4 ,& regeared all of them. I rechecked the old pinion gears & 3 have 16 teeth & 1 has 17 teeth. I don't know how that one worked because 3 out of 4 wouldn't even turn when I got them. They are all 100% mechanicley perfect now with 66 gearing. Other than the beat up chrome on the rings they look pretty good now. Not show pieces but 100% sea & fish worthy. I can't post photos because I don't have the equipment & barely know how to use this computer. :-\ Rudy
I hear what you're saying, Rudy, still odd to me. As you already know, using the same main gear on meshing gears, when increasing the ratio the pinion circumference decreases, when lower the ratio the pinion circumference increases.
Are the bridge plates the same?
No Sal, in a previous post I said I used a 3-66 bridge, 12-60 yoke, & 13-49 pinion. The main gear is the same on a 113 & 66. The bridge makes up the distance for the slightly differant diameter of the pinion [approx. .025] & the yoke is needed for the smaller groove dia. of the 13-49 gear. I also said that the sleeve is slightly shifted off center & you might have to file the hole in the plate very slightly. It doesn't make a lot of differance but it does make some differance. I've got 4 113's, 2 w/3 disc drags & 2 w/5 disc drags & all w/66 gearing. These are going to be a destruction test within reason. Rudy
Sorry Rudy, I've used up 30% of my brain and my file can't hold anymore information ;D.
I give you a lot of credit on this one, the dimentions are so close that I wouldn't have even tried it.
You're spot on with your dimentions, our calipers are synchronized ;), I hope I stop dropping mine. ;D.
I'll post a couple of shots of the bridges, so others get to see what you're talking about:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/005-9.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/011-8.jpg)
These should show the small difference with the gears offset.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/010-11.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/008-13.jpg)
Very good job Rudy! I'm getting lazy and don't feel like assembling one, did you put one together?
Let us know how it's doing.
Sal
Sal, I have 5 together,one in an Accurate wide frame w/68 spool, one in a Tiburon standard width new style topless frame w/113 aluminum spool, one in a Tiburon YTS old style frame w/66 spool, one in a standard stand & 113hl posts w/113 bronze spool & one in a 113hlw half frame w/68 spool & all chrome candy blue powder coated. Rudy
By the way I forgot to say GREAT pictures. I don't know why my lettering turned red. ??? ??? ???
Back in black!
I'll tell you why, it's because those are some hot reels that's why. ;)
If you can email me the pictures of those babies, I'll post them for you.
check your PM Rudy
Quote from: RowdyW on January 21, 2013, 08:02:35 PM
I pulled these gears out of the parts box again & 1 has 17 teeth & 3 have 16 teeth.
Does anyone know what reel would have a 17 tooth pinion gear? I need one for a project I've been mulling over.
Hello George,
I checked several pinions and found a couple that have 17 teeth. I had them zipped tied to a 5-60 main gear. IF I am reading this correctly there seems to be at least 2 pinions that work with a 5-60 main gear. Pinion 13-85 and 13-200. Sorry I can't tell you for sure what reel these came from. If you want a set of gears with the 17 tooth pinion let me know. Today if possible and I will have my wife mail them out tomorrow. Also, send me a PM with your mailing address.
John
Quote from: George4741 on February 03, 2013, 09:40:06 PM
Quote from: RowdyW on January 21, 2013, 08:02:35 PM
I pulled these gears out of the parts box again & 1 has 17 teeth & 3 have 16 teeth.
Does anyone know what reel would have a 17 tooth pinion gear? I need one for a project I've been mulling over.
Hi George, according to MysticParts the 13-85 pinion fits the 60, 65, 78, 79, 80[conv.], 85, 125, 285m, & 309 . The 13-200 fits the 100m, 150, 200m, & 350m . Rudy
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
John and Rudy,
I should have mentioned that I need a 17 tooth pinion gear that meshes with a 3-66 main gear. The 13-85 won't work. :(
Rudy,
I tried installing a 3-66 bridge and 13-49 pinion in my 113. My reel will need a little more work than yours. Because of the slight offset of the main gear, it rubs against the inside of the sideplate. I would have to enlarge the hole for the main gear. Other than that, this mod looks feasable.
George, I've done 5 now & the last one I used a new plate & new main gear & I see where it is binding. I just touched it up with a small sanding drum. No need to remove much, only a very little in line with the pinion & main gear. I guess the other 4 had a little wear on the main gear that I didn't have any clearance probelms. You only have to remove about .010-.015 of an inch toward the center. Those 113 gears sure don't have a lot of clearance in that plate. Let me know how that works out. Rudy
Quote from: George4741 on September 16, 2012, 07:16:11 AM
My only concern is the 3-piece spool distorting with the use of mono. We'll see....
Fill the spool at least 1/2 way with Spectra or Dacron and mono problems are reduced. Better yet is a topshot from 15' to 200' or more depending on need and preference and a full spool of braided line.
[/quote]
Could you guys explain in some detail what it is that mono will do to cause distorting?? And how Dacron/Spectra will help the problem??
Thanks in advance :)
All line stretches some, mono far worse than Dacron and Spectra. When mono stretches it gets thinner, load it on a spool tight and when the pressure is off it wants to return to it's normal width causing it to press on the sides of the spool and warping it. Dacron and Spectra don't do this.
I've experienced my first grouper special issue.
This is the 5th reel I've done and the first with side plate clearance issues. This one seems extreme as the spacer on the sleeve hits the side plate and the reel is hard to turn from the gear rubbing the plate. Before I take a sander to the plate, is their anything someone can think of that I did wrong?
Ron
When you changed the bridge it offsets the sleeve & main gear about .025 toward the center. Just a little touch with a sanding drum is all it needs. That seems to happen with plates that haven't had much use or new plates or main gears that have no wear. Read Georges comments above & my explanation under his question. Rudy
Finally got this one done and back together. I think all my others were rubbing a bit and I didn't notice. This one works nice and easy and looks great with Alan's crank arm and Kolekar grip.
Ron
what newell parts do i need ???
The only Newell part you "need" is a yellow tail special stand, but the bars are really nice to have.
Ron
Thanks to all that helped me get my Grouper Special together. As soon as I get a handle I'll post photos. Sometime in the near future I'll have the spool and rings powder coated.
Hi Gang! So much to learn from all of you. Also thank all of you here for your information, GREAT INFORMATION.;D
I have 2 113's and would appreciate the resipe of parts to make them a 1+5 drag system. I am installing Alans gear sleeves and I will verify the gear material when I take the reels down.
I am keeping the reels stock as far as gear ratio. I have used my old 6/0 that is slow and I don't have a problem with slow.
I look forward to replies from from you guys.
TL :)
jig-guy / Bill Nelson
Hi Bill,
First, disassemble your reels and see if you have a 3 or 5 drag washer stack. If you have a 3 washer stack you'll need one more eared and one more keyed metal washer. Then, for one-stop-shopping, it's best to contact Dawn at Smoothdrag for all of the parts. Tell her you need her #140 set plus two more carbontex washers, and one eared and one keyed metal washers for a 1+5 drag stack. Tell her it is for your black 113, not the different 113H. You'll also need an ounce of Cal's drag grease to lube the washers; Dawn has that, too. The #140 set includes one smaller carbontex washer that is installed under the main gear. Assemble your drag stack as described in the following thread: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4191.0
Good luck,
George
My Grouper Special is almost finished, I just need a left bearing and .020" CF drag washers, I have some .020" metal drag washers. I'll post photos when I get everything.
George4741, Hi & thank you for the follow up on my post.
I have all the parts to go through these 2 reels. I hope to complete these reel up grades within the week. I have Alan's SS gear sleeves. All new Smoooth Drag #5, and new carbontex drag washers + new metal drag washers sets. New main S-Steel main gears. New cluthch springs. One new half frame.
I am going to replace all of the scews (reels were not washed, greased and messed up the scews and one half frame + frame posts and finnaly the star drag wheels were bent. A little fresh water goes a long way when you get home from fishing.
Anyway thank you and all the contributors to this post for the information and help restoring these old school Penn reels. I am old school and fish old school reels because I like them, caught lots of fish in my life with these great reels.
TL Bill
You're welcome, Bill. They should easily handle 15 lb of drag when you are done - not that you may need it. Keep us posted on your progress, and photos, too.
When I first became a member of this forum I had the impression that few people used the smaller black Senators. Judging from the interest on this and other threads, I'm pleasantly surprised to find I may have been wrong.
Quote from: jig-guy on October 08, 2013, 05:57:11 AM
I am old school and fish old school reels because I like them, caught lots of fish in my life with these great reels.
TL Bill
Yup, old school is cool! It will be a while before I get back out on the salt chuck, but when I do, my 113 will be my primary reel.
George
Quote from: George4741 on October 08, 2013, 03:43:16 PM
When I first became a member of this forum I had the impression that few people used the smaller black Senators. Judging from the interest on this and other threads, I'm pleasantly surprised to find I may have been wrong.
George
Sometimes, some have good reasons to keep quiet ;), now thanks to you, $25 won't get you one of those anymore :-\ ;D
You're absolutely right Sal. I had a 113 in my collection but never thought to use it for fishing. After reading George's post regarding his narrow 113 I thought that was a great idea for a fishing reel and now I have three of them set up for fishing. Thanks George for the great idea. John
Old thread but good one! I'm working on a copy cat of the Grouper Special. I have the SS spool, Newell base and bars, and 66 gears. Just need to snipe the Senator, and save up for the sleeve and drags. ;D
I'd like to know what kind of work has been done with this reel, fishing work, that is ;).
Just bumping this thread to the top to make it easier to find. 8)
The low gear ratio on the old black 113 was a superb advantage in a hot SoCal bite back in the day before the newer 2 speeds came along. You could really pull on fish with them. Fishing straight mono in the 25-40 lb range,, you could deck schoolie YT, yellowfin and albacore as they are eating paint off the boat and have a fresh bait in the water while the others were still pumping and grinding. I still have a couple, but haven't taken them out in a while. Hmmmmmm...... :)