Post questions about this reel in this thread
I have two 115's, neither came with the front rod brace. One is a first generation reel. In looking for a proper, period-correct rod brace for this '37-'38 115 what do I need to look for?
Sid
Nonnumbered strap, turnbuckle is slightly different as well (maybe a bit squarer looking/shorter), and the metal/plating looks a bit different (kinda like te other earlier metal parts). This is a tall order to find, rod clamps, bolts, nuts, and braces that are period-correct for nonnumbered, and esp. first gen style senators. Take a look at some of the previous posted pictures of reels that have these parts as examples. I can post a pic or two of the few I have if it helps... but realistically you are going to have trouble finding these, unless maybe some member has a secrete stash collecting dust?
QuoteNonnumbered strap, turnbuckle is slightly different as well (maybe a bit squarer looking/shorter), and the metal/plating looks a bit different (kinda like te other earlier metal parts). This is a tall order to find, rod clamps, bolts, nuts, and braces that are period-correct for nonnumbered, and esp. first gen style senators. Take a look at some of the previous posted pictures of reels that have these parts as examples. I can post a pic or two of the few I have if it helps... but realistically you are going to have trouble finding these, unless maybe some member has a secrete stash collecting dust?
So true, I do not even try to find correct ones. If you are lucky enough to get the correct ones with reel, be happy. These parts usually get updated on the old models because of freezing up with corrosion. Finding originals it tough. Worthwhile though.
OK, so it's something I'll keep my eyes open for; I do have a secret connection not affiliated with this site who seems to have a lot of NOS Penn stuff around collecting dust.... John, if you don't mind, please do photograph what a proper rod brace looks like for this period, and perhaps we can also get someone to post a pic of other variations (like more recently made) so that we can use this thread to compare them. I would post pics of any I owned, but I don't own any (yet).
Thanks.
Sid
Here are pictures of my non-numbered rod brace with turn-buckles. I am pretty sure they are correct for my reel that also does not have part numbers.
What is different about this 9/0 ??
I have a feeling Mike and Ray will know.
Ted
It's not rusty and all the parts are correct and fitted properly . ;D
I'll let the others have a go. It is significant though. Congratulations on a great find.
By the looks of the handle arm it might be a lefty & no front lugs.
My guess is 1 st generation based on position of the gear case at 5 o'clock bushing instead of bearing and external drags...Bill
Nice find Ted!
They do exist ;)
It's a first year 9/0, the first year of the first Senator. Great find!
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on September 24, 2016, 01:55:58 PM
It's a first year 9/0, the first year of the first Senator. Great find!
Sid
Not quite, but close ;)
Oh yeah and black plates
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 24, 2016, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on September 24, 2016, 01:55:58 PM
It's a first year 9/0, the first year of the first Senator. Great find!
Sid
Not quite, but close ;)
Yeah, I realized what I did about 30 minutes ago. Wrong handle for first year.
1st gen--LH ?
Quote from: Penn Chronology on September 24, 2016, 04:18:51 PM
1st gen--LH ?
I wish it was a lefty Mike.
All 1st gen 9/0 were internal access drags. This 1st generation 9/0 has external drag access. It also has the newer logo that started in the late 30's. This reel is also 100% original, right down to the frame posts. TARFU nailed it !!
Here is a few comparison pics. Pic 1 shows first year 9/0 next to the last year for 1st gen configuration and next to it is the first year of 2nd generation.
Log nob in 2nd row is 1st gen 9/0 with external drag access, but it was Otto's test reel and at that time was still in the prototype stage.
2nd pic represents last of 1st gen(reel on left), and first year of 2nd gen.
Ted
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 24, 2016, 01:49:39 PM
Nice find Ted!
They do exist ;)
^^^^^^^^^^Like I said ^^^^^^^^^^
Ted, as per the catalog, the 9/0 went to externally access drags in 1940.
Quote from: Penn Chronology on September 25, 2016, 02:54:11 AM
Ted, as per the catalog, the 9/0 went to externally access drags in 1940.
....and as per #9 catalog, the 2nd generation 9/0 begins in 1941 ;D ;D. So few external access first gen 9/0's found so far
suggests that not many were made in 1st gen configuration....(note I did not say "
assume") ;) ;)
Ted you have a way with words. Good semantics. Dominick
Just got given this one to clean up and restore by a client. He is curious to know roughly how old it is. Sleeve is at 7 o'clock.
The posts have the chrome flaking off. Anyone know what the UNC screw size is for these (post only)? I have some 316 stainless rod to suit, and it wouldn't take me long to knock up a new set if I can get the correct tap.
Thanks in advance.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/10783_20_10_17_4_18_17_22234169.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/10783_20_10_17_4_18_23_222352210.jpeg)
The tap size is 8-40 the same as the 114 6/0 & 114H. That's the later model with ball bearings & aluminum spool. The posts are identical to a 114HLW. Rudy
Rudy your knowledge of the small details never ceases to amaze me...Bill
Thanks Bill, I'm just glad that I can still amaze someone. :D Rudy
Thanks Rudy for the thread size.
I'm guessing, possibly 1980's manufacturing period for this one?
I would say later, Probably 90's at the earliest.
The bearing design started in 89.
With the Aluminum spool and bearings, I would date it 1990.
Poor girl, Looks like she has been rode hard and hung up wet. ;)
I'm sure you will amaze us with her rebirth.
Nothing like a Classic Penn. I love them. :-*
All done for now. I added an extra dog (alternating) and shimmed under the sleeve. All external parts have been rubbed with dubbin wax for now, until I get the SS posts made. The reel mechanically was faultless. Carbon drags given some Cal's, the metals were given a Lapp to true them up. Most of the work was in cleaning all the chrome with vinegar, rinsing with fresh, then buffing with a calico wheel in the drill, with a light amount of polish.
Clean all internals, and full grease prep after. Bearings soaked in Corrosion X, great free-spool.
This reel is ready again for anything that Tassie waters can throw at it.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/10783_20_10_17_4_18_30_222361124.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/10783_20_10_17_4_18_38_222371250.jpeg)
Great work reviving that neglected workhorse. Is rubbing in the dubbin all you did to the plates? They have come up really well.
There are stainless (not sure what grade) posts available from fishingreels79 on ebay if you want to save yourself some time with the replacement posts, but if you have the SS rod, lathe and the skill that you have it's probably not cost-effective after you add postage to aus with the paypal conversion rate.
Mike
Hi Mike,
Just washed off the salt layer from the plates with some slightly watered down vinegar, then rinse with fresh water. Dried them out in the sun, and then rubbed the dubbin in. Did two coats.
Then there's a little grease etc from assembling, rub that in too! That's pretty much it.
Will probably stick with making the rods, got to order the tap still.
She looks great Rothmar. 8)
Hi there,
I have just acquired a 1938 first Gen 9/0. It has no front rod harness lugs. When did Penn start producing 9/0's with the lugs? the penn catalogue for 1941 is the first mention of 'after-market' rod braces being available to purchase for 9/0's, but the drawings of the 9/0's show no front lugs. Does anybody have a first gen 9/0 with such lugs?
If so, I would love to see some photo's.
Thank you,
Martin
Penn introduced the Senator in '37 with the 115 (9/0) and 116 (12/0). That first year neither had a front brace lug. In '38 they added the front brace to the 12/0, but not the 9/0. '38 also saw the introduction of the 113 (6/0) and 116A (10/0). The first year the 9/0 had a front rod brace was '41. It was listed as such in the catalog, but the photo of the 9/0 does not show it that year. In fact, it would appear that Penn used the same 9/0 diagram in all the catalogs through 1948 - none show a front harness lug, and all are depicted in the first-generation style. It wasn't until 1949 that the catalog diagram/photo reflected the second-generation build style and the front harness lugs.
So, to answer your question, there were first-generation 9/0's made with front harness lugs, but you have to read the catalog to find out, looking at pictures just doesn't do it in this case.
Sid
Hi,
At the start of this thread Sid, you mentioned that you had a first gen 9/0 and that you were looking for braces to complete the reel. Do you have photo's of that reel to show?
If you look at Ted's photo's of his array of 9/0's in this thread you can see three variants of the 1st gen 9/0's -
A) 1936 -1938, internal drag, scalloped head plate spool bearing, pear shaped handle,
B)1939-? ,internal drag, hexagonal bearing, football shaped handle,
C)1940? external drag, hexagonal bearing, football handle. I also have one of these reels. (wish I could do photo's)
None of these variants have front rod harness lugs on any photo's and reels that I have seen.
In Mike C's books He expresses uncertainty about the time that the change over from first Gen senators to second Gen reels occurred. If there are no first gen 9/0's with harness lugs made, why would Penn, in the 1941 catalogue, advertise rod braces as being available to purchase in the 'accessories' section for 9/0's. Illogical.
Occam's Razor - the simplest reason should always be assumed to be the correct answer. Penn was selling rod braces for 9/0's at the start of 1941 because they were making 9/0's with harness lugs then, ie, production of second gen 9/0's commenced at or before the time they produced the 1941 catalogue at least.
Again, Occam's Razor - If Penn started producing second gen 9/0's at the beginning of 1941 then the most logical assumption is that they also started building the other large Senators then in the second gen style too, for all the same reasons they changed the 9/0.
As you stated in you reply to me, Sid, looking at the drawings of the reels in the catalogues is misleading. I contend that the best clue we have re the time of the change over is the fact that Penn was selling rod braces for 9/0's in 1941.
One of the strengths of this site is that there is an aggregation of knowledge, photo's and opinions that advance understanding of the history of Penn reels. I repeat, does anyone have a first Gen 9/0 with harness lugs? and if so, could you possibly post photos. If there are none, then I believe that Penn has told us, in that accessory ad for rod braces, exactly when the change occurred.
Thank you
Martin
Quote
View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
Re: Senator 115, 115-LH, 115L, 115L-LH (9/0)
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2017, 04:09:27 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote
Hi there,
I have just acquired a 1938 first Gen 9/0. It has no front rod harness lugs. When did Penn start producing 9/0's with the lugs? the penn catalogue for 1941 is the first mention of 'after-market' rod braces being available to purchase for 9/0's, but the drawings of the 9/0's show no front lugs. Does anybody have a first gen 9/0 with such lugs?
If so, I would love to see some photo's.
Thank you,
Martin
Hello Martin and welcome to the site. I own 5 first generation 9/0's, none of them have front braces. Does that mean all first gen 9/0s do not have front braces? No, but it is likely that the 1st gen reels do not have them. Second generation reels do not follow the catalogs 100%. I believe Penn used the same rendition of the Senator set for many years. Even the 16/0 in the catalog pictures is presented as a first gen configuration; but I know that the 16/0 can be documented as a second gen build style in 1942. That 1st gen build style stayed in the Penn catalogs until 1947; but, I suspect the first gen build styles were no longer being produced for that long after the war.
The first year Senator 115 is the 1936 model.
Basically the rules here are a bit loose. The catalog is more of a guide line than an exact representation of when one style was removed or added. Being that rod braces were being offered for 9/0 in 1941 could be a tell that some second gen build styles were available for 9/0 at that time. Really hard to prove that.
Thank You for your input Mike.
This is above my head and I dared not to comment.
Hopefully this will give Martin some insight that I couldn't provide.
I am all about the Senators, but my "self induced buying parameters" as Ted calls it, prevents me from owning reels such as yours.
A lot of people talk the talk, but it is your book, so You walk the walk. ;)
You are a great asset to this site, and I thank you again for providing all of us, your wisdom,
Daron
Hi Mike,
Thank you for the welcome. I have actually been a 'guest' and then member of this site for about 5 years - a marvelous resource - Thank you Alan T
Long ago, my Dad taught me to look, listen, read and learn before I spoke, and between your 3 books (thank you, thank you, thank you!) and on this website there is a lifetime of reading and learning.
I am certainly not trying to stand on yours or anybody else's toes . I am just trying to use standard scientific methodology to help solve one of the many riddles in the Penn story. The principle of Occam's Razor - that the simplest explanation for a problem is the correct answer (in the absence of any data that proves otherwise) is one of the basic pillars of modern scientific enquiry. Without this principle being accepted by the scientific community, life as we know it would not exist. We would all still be arguing over wether the earth is round or flat.
So, we are all in agreement that the drawings of the Penn Senators in the catalogues are misleading. I have 4 1st gen 9/0's, you have 5(far prettier ones than mine!!). Ted has at least 3. That's 12. None have front harness lugs. I am sure there are many collectors reading this site as members, or guests, that between them, add up to hundreds? Then there are the members of Orca. I bet they own a few too.
One of the many things I have learned from your writings (thank you, thank you, thank you!!) is that Penn did quirky things. They also did prototypes, trade reels and one-off's to order. Anything for a sale. I am certainly not saying that there are no 1st Gen 9/0's with Front harness lugs(FHL). I certainly don't know. But, between us all, we should be able to amass a statistically relevant number of reels to draw valid conclusions about. As I said in my last post, this would seem to be one of the strengths of this site.
If, after a relevant number of replies we find that there are no 1st Gen 9/0's with FHL then the only valid conclusion to draw is that - to the limits of our knowledge - they don't exist.
Again, I certainly don't know but I am very interested.
We know that in 1941, Penn began advertising 9/0 rod braces for sale in the accessary page of their catalogue. It is illogical for them to do so if they weren't making 9/0's with FHL
All the 2nd Gen 9/0's I have seen, and own, have FHL.
Thus, all I am doing is advancing, in scientific terms, the hypothesis that FHL were added to the 9/0's at the same time as the transition from 1st to 2nd gen Senators took place, and that hence, in placing that ad for rod braces in the 1941 catalogue, Penn is providing us with written evidence of the time the change took place - on or slightly before they printed the 1941 catalogue. At our current state of knowledge, this is the simplest explanation for the ad.
I also advanced the hypothesis that, if Penn made this change at the beginning of 1941, then the most logical time for Penn to change all the other Senators to the 2nd Gen style would also be at the beginning of 1941. Penn would have been receiving enough feedback from their clients, agents, sales people and their own experiences, to realise that, for ergodynamic reasons, they needed to change. Why change just the 9/0 and not the others?. It would seem to be a not very difficult change to make from an engineering perspective - essentially a remodeling of the Headplate. ,Again, I certainly don't know if this is correct, but it seems to explain a lot of the questions raised by photo's of fisherman with their catches, and their reels.
If these 1st Gen large senators where made until 1948, we should expect there to be many more of them, but as you well know, 16/0's are rare indeed. this is easily explained by a short production run of two years (1939-1940).
Compared to you, Mike, I am a grasshopper!! But, with the help of the other members of this site, I believe with our collective knowledge, reasoned discussions, and photo's(seeing is believing) we have the where with all to reach valid conclusions to this question.
Does anybody have a 1st Gen 9/0 with FHL? If so, can you do photo's? If not, how many 1st gen 9/0's without FHL have you got?
Thank you
Martin
,
Quote from: Deepennz on June 19, 2017, 10:14:39 PM
Hi,
At the start of this thread Sid, you mentioned that you had a first gen 9/0 and that you were looking for braces to complete the reel. Do you have photo's of that reel to show?
Hi Martin, and welcome! I have 5 9/0's in my collection. I'll be using one for shark fishing soon. Of the remaining four, two are first-generation. Neither has a front lug. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I asked that question. The other two have German silver spool flanges. All three second generation reels have front lugs and harness intact, but neither of the first generation reels does. Sorry for the confusion.
Edit:I think what may have happened is that one of my pre-1950 second-gen reels has a numbered rod brace; I was looking for a period-correct brace for that reel, but it was over a year ago and I'm not sure, and it doesn't matter anymore anyway. :)
Quote from: Deepennz on June 21, 2017, 09:38:59 AM
Hi Mike,
Thank you for the welcome. I have actually been a 'guest' and then member of this site for about 5 years - a marvelous resource - Thank you Alan T
Long ago, my Dad taught me to look, listen, read and learn before I spoke, and between your 3 books (thank you, thank you, thank you!) and on this website there is a lifetime of reading and learning.
I am certainly not trying to stand on yours or anybody else's toes . I am just trying to use standard scientific methodology to help solve one of the many riddles in the Penn story. The principle of Occam's Razor - that the simplest explanation for a problem is the correct answer (in the absence of any data that proves otherwise) is one of the basic pillars of modern scientific enquiry. Without this principle being accepted by the scientific community, life as we know it would not exist. We would all still be arguing over wether the earth is round or flat.
So, we are all in agreement that the drawings of the Penn Senators in the catalogues are misleading. I have 4 1st gen 9/0's, you have 5(far prettier ones than mine!!). Ted has at least 3. That's 12. None have front harness lugs. I am sure there are many collectors reading this site as members, or guests, that between them, add up to hundreds? Then there are the members of Orca. I bet they own a few too.
One of the many things I have learned from your writings (thank you, thank you, thank you!!) is that Penn did quirky things. They also did prototypes, trade reels and one-off's to order. Anything for a sale. I am certainly not saying that there are no 1st Gen 9/0's with Front harness lugs(FHL). I certainly don't know. But, between us all, we should be able to amass a statistically relevant number of reels to draw valid conclusions about. As I said in my last post, this would seem to be one of the strengths of this site.
If, after a relevant number of replies we find that there are no 1st Gen 9/0's with FHL then the only valid conclusion to draw is that - to the limits of our knowledge - they don't exist.
Again, I certainly don't know but I am very interested.
We know that in 1941, Penn began advertising 9/0 rod braces for sale in the accessary page of their catalogue. It is illogical for them to do so if they weren't making 9/0's with FHL
All the 2nd Gen 9/0's I have seen, and own, have FHL.
Thus, all I am doing is advancing, in scientific terms, the hypothesis that FHL were added to the 9/0's at the same time as the transition from 1st to 2nd gen Senators took place, and that hence, in placing that ad for rod braces in the 1941 catalogue, Penn is providing us with written evidence of the time the change took place - on or slightly before they printed the 1941 catalogue. At our current state of knowledge, this is the simplest explanation for the ad.
I also advanced the hypothesis that, if Penn made this change at the beginning of 1941, then the most logical time for Penn to change all the other Senators to the 2nd Gen style would also be at the beginning of 1941. Penn would have been receiving enough feedback from their clients, agents, sales people and their own experiences, to realise that, for ergodynamic reasons, they needed to change. Why change just the 9/0 and not the others?. It would seem to be a not very difficult change to make from an engineering perspective - essentially a remodeling of the Headplate. ,Again, I certainly don't know if this is correct, but it seems to explain a lot of the questions raised by photo's of fisherman with their catches, and their reels.
If these 1st Gen large senators where made until 1948, we should expect there to be many more of them, but as you well know, 16/0's are rare indeed. this is easily explained by a short production run of two years (1939-1940).
Compared to you, Mike, I am a grasshopper!! But, with the help of the other members of this site, I believe with our collective knowledge, reasoned discussions, and photo's(seeing is believing) we have the where with all to reach valid conclusions to this question.
Does anybody have a 1st Gen 9/0 with FHL? If so, can you do photo's? If not, how many 1st gen 9/0's without FHL have you got?
Thank you
Martin]
Hello Martin,
I agree and I think I said something to the effect of what you said, only not as eloquently as you. I prefer to have solid verifiable facts; but, since we are dealing with undocumented history, we must try to guess with reasoning. I always say, in the world of Penn, never use the words, Perfect, Never or Always. Nothing is 100%. In the world of big business Penn was a small company. The controls at Penn (Pre-Pure Fishing)were always in the hands of family ownership. If someone in the family wanted something to exist, not-exist or be sold to the public until the stock was depleted (no matter what the catalog says), then it was so. There was an extreme personal touch at Penn which sort of bent the historical continuity presented by the catalogs. That said, the Fun Aspect is in the results from extreme speculation........................ ;D
While we're on it, here is a pic of my two first generation 9/0s (without front lugs)
Hi Sid,
Thanks for your reply and the photo's of your reels - they are prettier than my reels too - that doorknob handle!!! Well done.
I probably went overboard on the scientific side in my last thread, but I was deliberately trying to 'hook' you - as a veterinarian you are, in the first instance, a scientist, and hence would be able to understand what I am postulating.
So, as of now, the count is 14 without, and zero with, FHL.
Just as significant is that there have been nearly 200 'views', and no one has come forward with any confirmed sightings of the rare beast!!
I would also like to thank you for setting up this Penn - vintage board. As an old guy it is nice to know that it is OK to Rule at anything these days!
Ray, Ted, if I had to pick anyone on this planet who has a 1st gen 9/0 with FHL I would pick one of you two. Can you add to this discussion?
Mike - thanks for the reply. You must know many, many collectors on a first name basis - can they add something?
Hi Darren. I have to say thank you for your welcoming words on an earlier thread I wrote some time ago. Your 'one-liner" about just getting enjoyment from sitting on the couch with a beer, watching TV and twirling the handle of your favourite reel, has to be one of the best on this site. It still makes me laugh now thinking about it. It certainly sums up my evenings!!
Has any body got a first gen 9/0 with FHL?
Thanks
Martin
Psst Sid!! About that reel with the door knob handle - Man, have I got a deal for you................
Martin, I've had that doorknob handle 9/0 for a little over a year now, this is the first time I've let on that I have it. I bought it from a member here. At the time I bought it I believe it was the 5th reel found with this handle, and I've not heard of others since. Apparently, Mike didn't know about this one when he wrote his book, which I believe accounts for four of these. The other reel in the picture is a '36 or '37 model, bought from another member here. I don't have many reels in my collection that would make others envious. I haven't had this one long enough to tire of it yet, check back with me in a few years.
I'm not sure I would consider all 200 of those views; likely many are from non-members lurking, and they can't comment unless they join. I think we're on course for 2.7 million hits on this site this month. I'm glad not everyone feels the need to comment....
Sid
That's a centerpiece reel for sure Sid!
My first gen 9/0 has no FHLs. This has been the case with all first gen style 9/0s I have seen on Ebay, and in other AT/ORCA members collections I have seen.
When talking first gen 9/0s (Ray's?) first gen style 9/0 with the externally accessable drags (typically considered to be associated with 2nd gen reels) immediately comes to mind. There is a discussion regarding this topic somewhere else on AT. I have had my eye out for one since Ted brought this my attention.
John
Martin,
I own 5 first gen 9/0's but have had many others pass through my hinds over the years. Many I have photo'd and saved the photos. None of them use front harness lugs. I think if one were to be found, it would probably be a modified reel. You can take the later model inner trim rings and dado out the side plates to add a set of front harness lugs to a first gen reel. Not too much trouble to do. Penn simply did not consider the front lugs until it made the 12/o and even with the 12/0, the first versions did not have front lugs. So front harness lugs are an after thought in terms of the early Penn big game reels.
Hi John,
Thanks for the input. As I mentioned above, I actually have one of those 1st gen, external drag 9/0's. I have had it for over three years. When I first got it I was so pleased to have a 1st gen 9/0, that I did not realise it's significance. I just sat on the couch with it and twirled the handle!!
It wasn't until Ray posted that these 'variants' were rare, and produced just before Penn changed over to the 2nd gen style that I looked closer at the reel, and began to wonder - where are the FHL? If this later model had no FHL, where are the 9/0's with FHL?
Since then I have acquired three more 1st gen 9/0's - all 1936- 1938, first variant style. Again, no FHL.
Hence, this informal survey.
Mike - thanks again for your very important input. There does seem to be a building consensus that Penn never made any 1st gen 9/0's with FHL. However, it is worth waiting until enough replies have come in before we can come to a definite conclusion,
Sid, - you are the right guardian of that door knob reel - I was just joking - a reflection on the OCD reel collectors lot.
Has anybody got a 1st gen 9/0 with FHL?
Martin
[quoteHas anybody got a 1st gen 9/0 with FHL?][/quote]
Not me!
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Penn%20Senators/DSC05722%20422%20x%20317_zpsc10nkwci.jpg)
I bought this at a yard sale today for $20.00 the handle is wrong and outer rings and foot are a bit rough but a good deal for the price !! Would there be any one out there with a parts reel or handle or any other parts for this reel ?? Certainly doesn't have to be perfect as it wouldn't match the rest of reel. I now have it all apart and handle is only part with numbers. The spool is really quite nice and reel works perfect even the drags work well so to me even though it's rough if I could come up with a handle it would at least be a good example of a first gen 9/0. It is not marked 9/0 and there is no scene on tail plate so I believe it's an early one. Let me know ! John Taylor
Nice find there young man! Good hunting.
Killer score John. Patience is the key when looking for older era correct parts.
Yes, your 9/0 appears to be 100% era correct for 1936-40......except for the handle.
Ted
PM sent
Hi there,
It has been a while since I wrote my comments on this thread. Hopefully I can add some photo's to illustrate my comments. This is scary s**t for a technophobe like me!!
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/8447_24_12_17_12_25_43_229051117.jpeg)
This is my 1st gen, external drag access 9/0 - it doesn't have as nice a handle as Ted's, but it is in very good condition.(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/8447_24_12_17_12_26_07_229062365.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/8447_24_12_17_12_27_00_22907385.jpeg)
As I wrote earlier, I have had this reel for a while now, and didn't appreciate the significance of what I had!! Please note - no front harness lugs.
Because I am learning to add photo's I will include some of my 1938 9/0
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/8447_24_12_17_12_24_43_229031597.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/8447_24_12_17_12_24_05_229001604.jpeg)
I have not seen, nor heard of any 1st gen 9/0's with front lugs. Why would Penn advertise rod braces for 9/0's in 1941 if they weren't making 9/0's with front lugs by then?
Cheers
Martin
QuoteI have not seen, nor heard of any 1st gen 9/0's with front lugs. Why would Penn advertise rod braces for 9/0's in 1941 if they weren't making 9/0's with front lugs by then?
Nor have I. The only reasonable explanation is, Penn was making second generation models before they changed the catalog photo. As we look back into Penn history via the catalogs, we tend to give those catalog presentation 100% validity as if they were. They were not updated as the models were. More than likely, those years right before the war saw much confusion of products. I would not be surprised if both first and second generations reel were being sold in the pre-war model years.
I have a pre war gen 2 with no front lugs. Well at least thats what you guys told me it was LOL
Well Chris, if this is the original box, then the price puts it from 1939-1942
The box is worth about as much as the reel.....both together is a very valuable package. Congrats on that score !!
Ted
Ted i can only be 100% sure that the reel and box were together when I got it. I bought a Long Beach 62 from the same seller. It was in the 30s style box that turned out to be correct. I can only assume the 9/0 is correct.
That is by far the cleanest pre war 6/0 box I've seen. The original owner took great care of both box and reel. Amazingly clean !!
Hi Chris,
Thanks for showing us that reel and box - when I first saw it I had to turn away to stop my uncontrollable drooling!! I also have a 2nd Gen 9/0 with no front lugs - but way not as nice as that. Well done.
Could you please tell me if that reel has a drilled spool spindle or the later post. The reason I ask is I have another pre - war 9/0, 2nd gen, front lugs etc that still has a drilled spindle. This reel is currently working its way thru the cleaning dept, and I will eventually post some photos.
So it would seem that, prior to WW2, Penn changed the configuration of the head plate of the 9/0 5 times - three 1st Gen variants, and two 2nd gen models, finally arriving at the model with front lugs, spindle post, hexagonal front plate bush etc, that remained unchanged until the mid 50's. They must of had fun in the R&d Dept - out fishing probably!!
Cheers
Martin
Thank you all for the compliments.
Martin, it has a drilled spindle.
Hi Martin, I have same early gen2 that you described.
It has rosewood torpedo, coin edge cb, drilled arbor, AND D shape cutouts on front lugs only. Top lugs have circular hole. These are the very first of gen 2 9/0's circa 1940/41
Chris, that reel belongs in a museum, but likely you already knew that
Ted
Hi there,
Thanks for the reply, Ted - yes - that is exactly the 9/0 I have.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/8447_03_01_18_12_25_48_229871416.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/8447_03_01_18_12_25_29_229871998.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/8447_03_01_18_12_26_24_229922213.jpeg)
As you can see - this reel is a 2nd Gen, external Drag access, front harness lugs(small "D" shape), a large circular 'top lug' and a drilled spool still.
Also of interest is the fact that this reel has the famous Senator fishing scene on the Back Plate.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/8447_03_01_18_12_26_03_229912356.jpeg)
Ted - my external drag acess, 1st Gen 9/0 has no such scene on the back. Does yours?
Chris - My 2nd Gen, no front lug, reel has this fishing scene - does yours?
It would seem that this fishing scene was added at the time of the change from 1st Gen to 2nd, before the FHL were added.
Has anybody got a 1st Gen 9/0 with that scene?
Back to my reel above - In the 1941 catalogue, Penn advertised Rod brace's for 9/0 Senators as an accessory. The reel above was the only reel capable of utilizing those braces.
This is the 5th incarnation of the 9/0 Senator, and it was just 1941.
I would be interested if anybody has any input into when Penn moved to a pinned spindle, - 1942 perhaps? Still more to learn.
Cheers
Martin
Quote from: 1badf350 on December 24, 2017, 09:04:51 PM
I have a pre war gen 2 with no front lugs. Well at least thats what you guys told me it was LOL
Yeah Chris that 9/0 and box is about as good as they get !! Wouldn't it be great to find a complete set from 4/0 up like that !!! Really great find Chris. John Taylor
Sweet early 9/0 Martin
The fishing scene on tail plate began with gen2 9/0....I have yet to see a gen1 with fishing scene on the tail plate
My 1st gen with exposed drags also has experimental gears. I'd like to know if they put those same gears in the other gen1 that have been found with outer drag access.
Ted
Martin, yes mine has the same fish scene as yours.
Hi There,
Chris - thank you for that photo - that reel is pure eye candy!!
Ted - thank you for your input -What do you mean by 'experimental gears"? I have never had to disassemble my 1st Gen, external drag 9/0. All I did to it was give it 3 hours of gentle finger massage with Nevr-Dull. Truly amazing what that stuff does for old reels. Great tip!!
I have been doing a bit more reading. On page 66 of Mike's Yellow book there is an ad for Penn Senators for 1940. I quote - "All models are equipped with harness lugs and rod clamps. Forward rod brace on 10/0 and 12/0 sizes."
However, the 1941 ad, on page 80 reads - "All models are equipped with harness lugs and rod clamps. Forward rod brace on 9/0, 10/0 and 12/0 sizes."
Hence, at the beginning of 1941, Penn were advertising for sale the reel/model that I have pictured above even though the picture with the ad didn't reflect this change.
So, in the 730 days from the beginning of 1939 to the end of 1940, Penn made 4 changes to the head plate of the 9/0, finally arriving at my reel, pictured above.
Some time in 1940 Penn changed the 9/0 from 1st Gen, internal drag, to 1st gen, external drag. Then they changed to 2nd Gen, no rod lugs, as per Chris's reel above, and then to the reel advertised in their 1941 catalogue.
This also explains why, although they are not common, it is easier to find a 1936 - 1938 model(1100 days of production) than any/all of the two other 1st Gen variants.
When I started this line of enquiry back in June 17, I wrote of the concept of Occam's Razor - that, in the absence of 100% proof, then the simplest explanation for observed changes/phenonema is the correct answer. We have written proof(pages 66 and 80, the yellow book) that sometime in 1940, Penn changed the 9/0 from 1st Gen to 2nd. All the observed/found reels support this assertion. The most logical time for Penn to have changed all the other Senators to 2nd Gen is at the same time, for the same ergodynamic reason.
This is, I believe, supported by the fact that there just aren't alot of large, 1st Gen Senators out there, as one would expect if the change occurred later.
Cheers
Martin
Martin here's another one for you i just acquired.
This came to me from Gramps and looks to be an early gen 2 as it was loaded with twisted linen (carefully saved) and it is a Phillie reel. I'm getting ready to spool it up with mono and put it on a tuna stick. Is this in any way a collector or just an old girl to get back out there? A little Corriosion-X and functions smooth. Thanks
I see part numbers so its made after 1950. If you want to fish it go for it (or at least I would)
I dont know when they changed the design of the handle side spool bearing but someone else will.
Looking at the oversized oil port on the knob, I'd say early 1950's....
....also, the logo was moved to 12 o'clock position sometime around 1960
Thanks guys, early 50's sounds about right from Gramps, going to take her fishing again. Old but not really a collector piece.
Hi Guys,
Just trying to catalog my reels and I was unsure of this 1st generation 9/0.
From what I'm reading, the handle should make it 36-38 as after this they went to a torpedo handle.
Is this a correct assumption and the best I could date it, no box.
Col
Quote from: Cuttyhunker on August 20, 2018, 04:46:33 PM
This came to me from Gramps and looks to be an early gen 2 as it was loaded with twisted linen (carefully saved) and it is a Phillie reel. I'm getting ready to spool it up with mono and put it on a tuna stick. Is this in any way a collector or just an old girl to get back out there? A little Corriosion-X and functions smooth. Thanks
Cant see if it's a three piece spool but if so, load some dacron or braid on it then topshot your mono to avoid blow up.
Hi Col,
That handle type, with the built in oil port dates that reel at 1938 - prior to that Penn made bell shaped handles, but they had no oil port.
That looks to be a lovely example - well done!!
Cheers
Martin
Martin, Thanks for that.
There's a few other Penns with that oil port handle that date to 38, So I was inclined to write it down as that.
But I couldn't distinguish in old photo's whether the 36-37 were just a bell shape or they had the oil port.
I know I did read it somewhere, but couldn't for the life of me find the reference.
Duly now noted down, cheers
Col
QuoteThere's a few other Penns with that oil port handle that date to 38, So I was inclined to write it down as that.
But I couldn't distinguish in old photo's whether the 36-37 were just a bell shape or they had the oil port.
I know I did read it somewhere, but couldn't for the life of me find the reference.
Hello Col,
Your reel could be anywhere from 1936 to 1938. That handle was used in all those years. In 1939 Penn switched to the torpedo handle. In the photo, the center reel is sitting on top of the 1936 box it was found in, it is a 1936 Senator 115 with the handle (with an oiler). I dated it by the 1936 brochure that was in the box.
The second phot is the whole 1936 package.
Hi Mike,
OK, thanks for that. Pity this one never came with a box to be more accurate, but I'll list it down then as 36-38.
Wow, that's a nice photo of all the variants right there !!!! beautiful.
I haven't been to diligent in recording exact details on my reels thus far, so it's been an interesting exercise going over them and actually writing down
the specific information. Your books are a brilliant point of reference, I seem to miss things the first time, then pick up on other things when I Re read it again, it keeps on giving !!
Thanks again.
Col
Col, your 9/0 is a beautiful example of the earliest version
The thread you were trying to locate is "Penn senators: From the beginning". It's pinned thread in the senator section and early 9/0's are pictured and discussed by several legendary Penn collectors.
Ted
Thanks Ted,
You know something, I actually went thru that thread, Typical, I probably glossed over the right part to read.
That thread is a great source of info for early Senators.
Thanks.
Col
Quote from: Maxed Out on September 08, 2019, 02:33:26 PM
The thread you were trying to locate is "Penn senators: From the beginning".
Whew. You threw me down a nine page rabbit hole there Ted. I'm glad to be back.
-steve