Sorry, I hijacked Randy's post on jigmaster upgrades, so here goes,
A question and maybe it has been asked before, if these all metal conversions are so popular, why did Penn never take the simple step and modernise the "old school" range of reels with full metal reels and at the same time reduce that dreaded gap between spool and frame? Is it perhaps because they wanted to move away from the bridge plate design?
Thanks,
Leon
They did, with the US Metal Senator and the Torque. However, those price points are way higher than the standard configurations. Penn's roots in the 30's were to make saltwater angling accessible to the common working population that couldn't afford a Kovalovsky or Fin-nor, and that holds true. You can still buy a Jigmaster new for $62 and catch 99% of anything most people fish for in stock configuration, and a 6/0 Senator at $130 or 9/0 at $150 really has to have a serious fish on to test it. I caught a 250 lb shark on a bone-stock 6/0 that about beat me physically, so I put all I had on it to see what would break first....shark, line, rod, reel or me...actually torqued the rod permanently out of alignment...but the reel didn't flinched under all the pressure I could give it. (The shark lost :)
Technology moved on. The little fathom does everything a fully updated squidder would do only at a lower price point. The object of a business is to make money and a fully built squidder wouldn't make the money that a newer, easier to manufacture reel does.
Ron
If they continually made upgrades of the old models to keep up with new materials, new processes, new spectra lines, new expectations, new competition, etc, then they would have ended up about where they are today. Better to keep a few of the old models and introduce upgraded products under different names.
-steve
We can count hundreds of reel manufacturers that have gone Oscar Bravo (out of business) in the last 85 years —
And maybe only 2 or 3 that are still in business after 85 years.
Penn is one of the survivors primarily due to a balanced approach to market demand, pricing, proven quality, plus parts and service support after the sale.
Old school values based on what still works — coupled with new innovations.
Just an opinion.
Best,
Fred
Thanks makes sense, I did not think of it from a marketing point of view and I think I was under the impression there is still a huge demand for the older models, hence all the aftermarket replacement parts, but I have probably been thinking in terms of our small market. Am I correct then in assuming that the aftermarket high end parts is a very small fraction of the US reel market, even if you compare it just to the segment it is aimed at, that being mainly medium to heavy offshore sector, not the overall reel market?
It is fantastic to see what you guys do though, the workmanship is commendable.
Plus, if Penn did all of it, there wouldn't be anything fun left for us to do ;)
Quote from: CapeFish on June 27, 2018, 09:06:35 PM
Thanks makes sense, I did not think of it from a marketing point of view and I think I was under the impression there is still a huge demand for the older models, hence all the aftermarket replacement parts, but I have probably been thinking in terms of our small market. Am I correct then in assuming that the aftermarket high end parts is a very small fraction of the US reel market, even if you compare it just to the segment it is aimed at, that being mainly medium to heavy offshore sector, not the overall reel market?
It is fantastic to see what you guys do though, the workmanship is commendable.
In my opinion, you are pretty close to right, CF...
Most of us are guilty of looking at the world from our little point of view — instead of the larger global picture with all its challenges and opportunities.
Best,
Fred
You pay it.
Quote from: mikeysm on June 29, 2018, 02:01:05 AM
What happens when Trump sticks a tariff on chinese made Penns.
Mike
Quote from: Shark Hunter on June 29, 2018, 05:48:26 AM
You pay it.
Or not. You still have a choice.
They move maunfacturing back to the U.S thats what.
Mike
I hear that! ;D
Quote from: mikeysm on June 30, 2018, 02:00:13 AM
They move maunfacturing back to the U.S thats what.
Mike
I hope this happens.
Isn't that the whole idea behind tariffs?
Manufacturing jobs here.
Steve
Newell was making aluminum spools, bars and bases for Penn Squidders and Jigmasters before making complete reels of their own. Penn had plenty of opportunity to incorporate improvements rather than becoming obsolete. People here are still looking for faster gears and better drags for their Squidders when they've been available for decades as the Newell 220/229/235. Just refer to them as upgraded Squidders and you're good. No difference with upgrading your Jigmaster with the spools, frames, bridges, gears, drags, etc, available here until the only thing left from Penn is the name.
Quote from: swill88 on June 30, 2018, 05:11:33 PM
Isn't that the whole idea behind tariffs?
Manufacturing jobs here.
Steve
Yes but it won't work. Europe is retaliating with tariffs of their own leading to Harley and Indian having to build plants in Europe to have any hope of being competitive.
Bring jobs back to US? With Penn up for sale again, the massive cash infusions needed to bring it back from overseas aint gonna happen. And tariffs increase the cost of machine tools (steel) needed to make parts. Penn may very well go the way of MITCHELL, SHAKESPEAR AND OTHERS
OWNED BY SAME CONGLOMERATE
The tariffs are on the raw material which makes it cheaper to manufacture at the point of sale on some things. Tariffs on things manufactured overseas just makes it more expensive to the consumer.
I guess if you are really into making big money then you want the middle class in China and India affluent enough to buy everything that can be made. Makes sense to have the good paying jobs in Asia. That's what is happening.
Steve
The only way to compete with Asian countries in manufacturing is to accept their standard of living. Some day we may meet them in the middle.
-steve
Steve has a good point. By my way of thinking, any time you try and tinker with a true free market economy (which we do not have) you are basically tap dancing on quicksand. But as far as reels: Mark had a good point about Newell, and while I don't know the numbers, there is certainly the possibility that what was a thriving busine$$ for Newell in terms of Gro$$ and Net might have been such a small blip on the radar for Penn to where it really wasn't worth it to them to chase it. And from what I understand Accurate pretty much started out the same way - making hot-rodded Penns.
If you look at another industry, (automotive) that is pretty much how the aftermarket works. Chevrolet, Ford and Mopar make gazillions of units. For the most part, while companies like Edelbrock (et Al) may be banging out what seems like a lot of (intake manifolds, heads, exhausts, etc you pick) that are "better" than what comes from the majors the truth is it's not worth the factories time to produce what they see as limited runs. And in many cases they will go ahead and purchase from the aftermarket if it fills a need since it is literally cheaper for them to just buy it.
To get back to the fishing reels that we all love, I heard a good one last week on "Let's Talk Hookup" (SoCal weekly fishing radio show, Sat/Sun from 7-9 Pacific, deals pretty much with SoCal ocean fishing. Fun show, great guys, great guests, good info. Webcast on "Mighty 1090 Sports Radio" for those of you in other parts of the world that might be interested in listening. Anyhow, I digress...) Last week they has a rep from Shimano on as a guest (okay, Shimano also sponsors their show in the interest of transparency) and one of the callers asked a great question that basically asked when they would come out with a smaller format Baitrunner Reel for some freshwater applications. He indicated that they had looked at it, and done some market research, but until they feel that there is enough demand; just because they can make it doesn't mean they can make it with an acceptable ROI in time or money. The rep also illustrated how one of the reels that they make (I think it was a Tranx? Honestly I am not that "up" on Shimano reels) is pretty much the "go to" for a particular style of SoCal fishing (albacore) that hasn't happened in years. And his point (okay, he's a sales guy I get it) was that IF we got a season this year, that the limited supply of these reels would immediately disappear of local shelves and because of tooling and manufacturing considerations, the lead time could very well be 6 months or more before more showed up.
For any of these major tackle manufacturers, designing a great product, figuring out how to make it affordably and how many they need to sell (that old "cost versus demand" curve we all learned in school) has literally got to be a nightmare...
I think Accurate started in the fishing business as a sub-contractor for Tiburon then went into the business for themselves.
A good example would be the Penn magpowers. They took all the beefy parts from other reels,made bars, other upgrades,cast control really a lot of great features at the time. I don't think it sold very well and I'm sure it cost Penn a bundle at the time for the tooling ect to make it. It's a big gamble for a company to take.
Newell was a little different, the man like to fish and wanted better reels so he used his expertise to make them. I'm sure the company made money but he had income from other sources so he could afford to stick his neck out a little.
Penn is controlled by share holders so you live and die by profit margin if you work for Penn. If moving the manufacturing back here would increase their profit margin I'm sure they'd do it.
Seems like these days the world economy is like a game of wack-a-mole, be interesting to see how this tariff thing works out.
Randy sure has Tiburon kicking out reel kits lately. Sell what people want is hard because they don't know themselves
Mike
Of course, after Penn went to Chinese manufacture, what difference does it make, anymore ?
Tight Lines !
I have been a proponent of the concept of an "equalizing tariff/restriction system" on goods and services form countries that have made it hard for the US to sell in those countries. Essentially if a nation places any tariff or restriction on what can be brought into their country, we automatically apply the same restrictions on their goods. This will have a direct impact on those nations who manipulate the system.
Why is it that country A can sell a bizzillion cars in the United States but we get a restriction of 50,000 cars per year in their country. I say BS, slap equalization on them, you only get 50K. Fair is fair.
There's a company in China that makes alot of reels,,,,there little girls,,,,yes they got to eat too,,,,,I like to buy American,,,, ;) but my torque 5 was a little disappointing,,,,step up the game,,,,,, ;D
Quote from: MarkT on June 30, 2018, 05:12:58 PM
Newell was making aluminum spools, bars and bases for Penn Squidders and Jigmasters before making complete reels of their own. Penn had plenty of opportunity to incorporate improvements rather than becoming obsolete. People here are still looking for faster gears and better drags for their Squidders when they've been available for decades as the Newell 220/229/235. Just refer to them as upgraded Squidders and you're good. No difference with upgrading your Jigmaster with the spools, frames, bridges, gears, drags, etc, available here until the only thing left from Penn is the name.
It should be noted that Carl Newell was in the fishing business strictly as a hobby. In all the years that the Newell Fishing Division existed, they never once made a profit, and since Carl passed in 2008, not a single Newell reel has been produced. Although a couple of hopefuls have purchased various rights to Newell Reels, they have all come to the same unfortunate conclusion; Without the subsidy of a multi-millionaire like Carl, they would have to either; A- move production to China, or; B- double the price. Neither of which seems a viable option.
Quote from: MarkT on June 30, 2018, 05:12:58 PM
the only thing left from Penn is the name.
And its foundation so others could build on! :)
Sal
locked. gentlemen, thank you for your contributions.