So, you've seen a lot of steel gear sleeve posts peened to a brass bridge plate. How do they do that? Is it a two-piece rivet? What does the post look like before it is peened in place? How do you press or whack it hard enough to deform the post without bending it? How do you support it? It's all a mystery to me.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on November 17, 2019, 08:37:41 AM
So, you've seen a lot of steel gear sleeve posts peened to a brass bridge plate. How do they do that? Is it a two-piece rivet? What does the post look like before it is peened in place? How do you press or whack it hard enough to deform the post without bending it? How do you support it? It's all a mystery to me.
-steve
I've asked that question a few times to the machinist that actually does some of ours and never got an answer... must be top secret. I'm sure they're using an hydraulic press.
https://imgur.com/a/b6RgSNt
Here is what I believe penn used... the gadget with the first large coffee grind handle.
There might be a hydraulic hose hooked at the bottom to pull pressure while he turns the handle, or it might just get it hot enough while turning that handle and tap it with the peening hammer he has sitting there.., couldn't really tell though.
Maybe someone else has a better idea.
Sal
Thank you very much Sal. I forgot about that great photo. A lot of secrets are hiding there.
I get hung up on the wide flat part on the back side of the bridge (like the head of a nail) and am wondering if they start with something that looks like a nail but with a little shoulder just under the head. If you could support everything on that shoulder then you could apply as much force as you want without bending the shaft (shank of the nail) or the bridge plate. Maybe???
-steve
Steve, the shaft does have a shoulder that rests on the bridge as you've figured out, or you wouldn't be able to peen it.
all posts you see on a bridge plate have the same shoulder, no matter what size, even the tiny pin for the spring has it.
here is a pic of a custom post prior to installation on the bridge plate:
(https://i.imgur.com/xOoVDQO.png)
You also make a good point on trying not to bend the shaft, this justifies that they are using a hydraulic press with a pre set pressure gage.
Sal
Quote from: oc1 on November 17, 2019, 11:04:53 AM
Thank you very much Sal. I forgot about that great photo. A lot of secrets are hiding there.
I get hung up on the wide flat part on the back side of the bridge (like the head of a nail) and am wondering if they start with something that looks like a nail but with a little shoulder just under the head. If you could support everything on that shoulder then you could apply as much force as you want without bending the shaft (shank of the nail) or the bridge plate. Maybe???
-steve
x 2 with the photo, thanks for posting it Sal.
Steve I think you could be onto something with the shoulder concept the Penn sleeve posts have a collar on the business side and the sleeves have a corresponding recess. If you made an anvil with a recess the correct dia and depth of the collar and a through hole for the rest of the sleeve post, the stub sticking through the plate could be peened while supported on the collar. I've thought about this from time to time as well (the last time was thinking about the thin Mag 10 bridges - yesterday :) ), and have noticed the back side of the posts have a smooth concentric pattern on them and not peening marks - that could be from how they cleaned them up after peening ??? or could they be rolled or spun to make the metal flow, but there is no sign of heat that would be generated.
In summary - I don't know but wish I did :-\
Mike
PS: SAL was typing at the same time - great photo Sal - that shows it very clearly and a press would retain the concentric machining marks.
I beleive that the shaft is inserted into a die in a punch press with the plate on top of it. A punch press is all mechanical & is set at a predetermined height. The press is built with a predetermined tonage and the adjustment for strike is set by the height of the die that is in the machine. It is all done in a single srrike by a die punch in the upper part of press in this instance. No heat is needed. It's not just the tonage of the strike but also the speed of the strike which does create some heat. I'm speaking from experience of having worked part of my life in my dad's tool & die shop where we built dies for production companies. A setup like that is built to produce hundreds of thousands pieces to be cost effective. You can't do this on a benchtop machine. It is done by a massive machine that weighs quite a few tons. Rudy
That makes a lot of sense Rudy and I was thinking about it myself.
I'm sure it is a one punch with the determined pre-set pressure.
I'm sure the striking head is already shaped as a shallow dome
Must of those older units will need forklifts, even if they appear to be small in size.
I saw a nice older milling machine equipped with 3 HP.
It was very reasonable in cost but he mentioned I would need a heavy duty truck and they would load it with their forklift.
I do own a heavy duty truck, but I do not need to deal with anything like that.
Sal
I agree Sal, those machines are big and heavy. I was fortunate enough to visit a factory in Southern California that stamps stainless steel plumbing fixtures you see in institutional settings. These lavatories and sinks are made with 12 ga and 14 ga stainless steel plate. Their big machine is three stories tall, one under the floor and two over. When that thing punched a fixture you could feel the ground shake.....Bill
I really don't have anything to add to this conversation as this is way above my pay grade, but thank you guys for breaking this down to where even any knucklehead like me can understand.
Man, you guys have some serious skills and knowledge. I'm in awe.
Happy to call you guys my pals,
Dom
Sal, make sure on the electrial input on industrial machinery. Some are 220 volt but the real industrial machinery is 440 volt. My dads machine shop ran on 110,220, & 440. Outlets & lights were 110, bench machines were 220, & floor machines were 440 volt. It's a big step down for me from my dads lathes with 36" swing & 7-8' bed length to my hobby lathe with 5" swing & 12" bed which has done me well in making tooling for ammunition reloading. I sure wish I would have bought a vertical bench milling machine years ago. I'm getting to old to purchase one now. With a lathe & milling machine there's almost nothing you can't make. By the way there is a big difference between a 50 ton hydralic press & a 50 ton punch press. The hydralic press can maintain the pressure but it can't give that instantanise pressure needed for forming.
https://youtu.be/PFT_cCbHVnQ
Yup ! I've heard it called "spin riveting", too. Between the friction of the tool against the material, caused by the "orbit", and the internal friction of the metal as it "works"....the "rivet" is heated (hot enough to "raise a welt", if you touch it...but not hot enough to discolor, or "blue"), so, after the "head' is formed....and cools...the "rivet" is 'shrunk" , which adds to the strength
Thank you Mike. I was starting to get lost but that video explains it all.
OK... next question now that we know how Penn did it. How would you yourself do it with the equipment you have on hand?
-steve
I doubt penn would have been able to do it by hand using stainless steel. The probably used a hydraulic press for the bridge and some is the gears.
I actually have pieces of metal from penn with stamped spool ratchets and dogs .
I believe that gadget with the large handle was only used for handle knobs.
The preening on those is brass , very soft to work with.
Sal
I'm sure you are correct Sal. Not to keep beating this dead horse, but....
Do you suppose that guy in the photo above is a reel assembler or a reel repair guy? If he's an assembler, where are his plates, rings and stands? He has a little strainer like someone might use for cleaning parts. I keep looking at it in hopes of snagging one more bit of trivia. That photo was discussed before but I can't find it again.
And speaking of trivia, here is the backside of the bridge from a small OC baitcaster. They put a washer over the stick-out before peening it down. The peen looks like it was pressed/struck with a straight chisel in a circular pattern.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/post2.jpg)
and, here is a random Penn for comparison.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/post1.jpg)
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on November 17, 2019, 08:45:50 PM
How would you yourself do it with the equipment you have on hand?
-steve
Dunno Steve, you could try making a tight fit, support the post on the shoulder and peening the back using a swing press (hammer), but I don't know if it would work well enough for a sleeve post.
Maybe try making an orbital rivet head thingy ;D
Mike
Quote from: oc1 on November 18, 2019, 07:42:42 AM
I'm sure you are correct Sal. Not to keep beating this dead horse, but....
Do you suppose that guy in the photo above is a reel assembler or a reel repair guy? If he's an assembler, where are his plates, rings and stands? He has a little strainer like someone might use for cleaning parts. I keep looking at it in hopes of snagging one more bit of trivia. That photo was discussed before but I can't find it again.
And speaking of trivia, here is the backside of the bridge from a small OC baitcaster. They put a washer over the stick-out before peening it down. The peen looks like it was pressed/struck with a straight chisel in a circular pattern.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/post2.jpg)
and, here is a random Penn for comparison.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/post1.jpg)
-steve
Not really sure Steve, I just wish I was there at that time sharing that workbench with him🙂
If you look closely at the first part bin compartment you will see some lose knobs.
This led me to believe he assembles those as he's completing the full assembly... who knows.'
That is one of my favorite pic by the way.
I do a little peening at times, but not on the handle shaft, or bridge plate.
I will at times replace the clicker on the plate when it gets in bad shape:
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=23443.msg259044#msg259044
As you could see, it looks pretty good, that one was hit with a peening hummer using small taps while resting the plate on a towel on the floor.
I was happy with the results.
The video we've seen above, I don't believe it could work on such a small part as the bridge.
I've seen that type of peened rivers on bed rail, automobiles A frame and in many other applications.
That gadget must have a lot of power and probably as big as a school bus.😏
Sal