Well I'm stumped on this one. Fella is leaving this Fri. hoping to take this reel with him.
This 12N has no free spool as soon as the drive side plate is matched up & turned into the frame. I have installed the handle / drive side from one of my reels & get the same loss of free spool. I have installed new drag assembly & all associated parts... Only parts I have not changed out are the spool, shaft & frame... Jeff
The standard Andros 12 and A models are fitted with a cast control on the tail plate - don't know about the N model. If fitted make sure its fully backed off (anti-clockwise).
Yup ! I've forgotten to do that so many times it's now, finally become a standard in my process of diagnosing any reel that has it.
Is that 'Yup' that was the problem - or 'Yup' already checked that and there's still no freespool?
SORRY.... It's something I now always check. This wasn't it... Jeff
Do you have free spool when installing the side plate but not the drag adjustment knob?
Do you have free spool with the spool installed but on the drive side plate with no frame?
Bryan, I have free spool with spool installed just on drive side . No free spool in frame with with or out drag adjustment knob. It is obvious the drag assembly is being compressed. you can feel it.
As simple as it sounds it apparently isn't. To reiterate I've tried completely different drive side assembly, new drag with with the pinion engagement / pinion guard & the issue remains.
I'm flooded with reel work. I'm happy to have it. It's hard keeping it all straight when you have reels waiting on parts & other stuff & reels like this one I need to walk away from. At least for a bit & return to it later today
Fella has a better chance leaving with this reel on Friday if I can get it sorted vs sending it to Okuma.... Keep the ideas coming... Jeff
Do you have any pics of the drag assembly? The Andros is a pull system...hmm, is the pinion bearing seating all the ways in the side plate? Is the pinion bearing installed in reverse? Are the drag pressure plates oriented correctly (the cup portion shall be towards the wavy spring)?
Theses will be the next things I would look at. Pics would help me think of other causes though.
Is it worse when the reel is tilted to the right? Or left? Does it improve with the preset backed all the way off?
I would get a new set of Bellevilles (since they are all slightly different in terms of thickness), and shims. Try to determine which of the 3 drag surfaces is contacting, and change the spool spacing appropriately. More then likely the spool needs to move left slightly (i.e. maybe your Belleville stack has compressed from storing the reel with the lever pushed forward?). A new set of Bellevilles may solve the issue. You could test this by simply adding a shim/thrust washer to the belleville stack. If the problem improves or is fixed, I would still replace the Bellevilles since your shimmed reel with worn spring washers will have a steeper drag curve which could lead to pinion damage/ handle binding at high drag settings. Another thing to consider would be springs are too worn to push the drag components from the spool. Another possibility is that the drag discs have worn (0.01" on each would be 0.03" total wear), and you need to shim to make up for lost space. All 3 (worn springs, Bellevilles, drag discs) could lead to as much as 0.09" wear. That kinda change in spacing in this type of reel is unacceptable, and will affect functionality.
Another possibility is marring on the shaft or somewhere causing binding, or incorrectly seated/installed parts that lead to not enough space between components. Try to determine if there us too much space, or not enough on the right side of the spool, along the shaft.
These reels have tight tolerances, and steep drag curves with 3 active surfaces. This means there is little room for parts wear with regards to spacing and the subsequent effect on functionality.
I would look at this as a fun challenge. Testing subassemblies, and trying different things will teach you how to address this type of issue in many of today's small lever drag reels.
John
Check where the assembled spool shaft inserts into the tail plate - the cross pin must locate correctly otherwise excess pressure is applied to the shaft and drag.
Thanks a lot guys. You all have given me things to look at.
John, the spool spins very free when installed into just the drive side outside of the frame. No variation when tilted. I'll check this again to be certain.
The bellevilles go on the left side on this reel it being a pull design. Unless I'm not understanding I don't see this being an issue. Let me know If I missed something here. I'm also very tired at the moment... Jeff
Here are pics of drag assembly.
More
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 05, 2018, 08:48:54 PM
Do you have any pics of the drag assembly? The Andros is a pull system...hmm, is the pinion bearing seating all the ways in the side plate? Is the pinion bearing installed in reverse? Are the drag pressure plates oriented correctly (the cup portion shall be towards the wavy spring)?
Theses will be the next things I would look at. Pics would help me think of other causes though.
BRYAN, correct me if wrong but I dont believe it matters how the pinion bearing is oriented. The metal plates I have oriented with the raised center facing out on both of them.
More with reverse gear. If you look you how they fit or mesh together.
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 05, 2018, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 05, 2018, 08:48:54 PM
Do you have any pics of the drag assembly? The Andros is a pull system...hmm, is the pinion bearing seating all the ways in the side plate? Is the pinion bearing installed in reverse? Are the drag pressure plates oriented correctly (the cup portion shall be towards the wavy spring)?
Theses will be the next things I would look at. Pics would help me think of other causes though.
BRYAN, correct me if wrong but I dont believe it matters how the pinion bearing is oriented. The metal plates I have oriented with the raised center facing out on both of them.
I'm sorry. I meant the pinion gear not the bearing.
Ok that drag assembly is correct.
Is the spool washer seated all the down? It should be such that the hex is keyed with he hex in the spool.
(http://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24612.0;attach=49875;image)
Yes drag washer on spool is fully seated.
I just removed all 4 Belleville washers from spool shaft, assembled the reel & with the spool seated noticeably deeper in the left side of the frame & still no free spool.
How is this possible with the spool seating lower in the frame ?
The 4 spring washersers are as thick as the drag assembly.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 05, 2018, 08:52:26 PM
Testing subassemblies, and trying different things will teach you how to address this type of issue in many of today's small lever drag reels.
John
Well John I obviously can use all this I can get. I've learned a lot from you & the few times you've talked reels in your posts... Jeff
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 05, 2018, 06:40:52 PM
Do you have free spool when installing the side plate but not the drag adjustment knob?
Do you have free spool with the spool installed but on the drive side plate with no frame?
Yes, but have to fiddle with drag adjustment to get it.
If you have free spool with the spool inserted into the tail plate but no free spool when the drive side plate is twisted into place - make sure the cross pin is seated into the tail plate - this is where it should fit:
Look at photo 8:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=1624.0
If the cross pin isn't fitted into that milled slot you will never get free spool
Completely understand what your saying. However I've never been able to get the drive side in place on a reel with out the cross pin lined up allowing the spool to settle in place.
Also with out the cross pin in its slot how can I still adjust the drag? The shaft would just turn in the spool when I turn the drag knob. Unless I guess it was only partially in that slot giving the issue I'm having.
Chris, what your saying makes perfect sense. But the spool on this reel when I checked numerous times seems to be sitting no higher in the frame than on my reels. I also feel the cross pin drop in the slot prior placing the drive side on.
I'm deffinantly going to check it thoroughly I'll get back as soon as I do.
Thanks, Chris... Jeff
It's fully seated
I have never had one of those reels apart but with many LD reels if the belleville washers are not in their stock configuration you will have free spool issues.
Just for sake of argument lets say the washers came stock like ()() and you made them (()) if you don't add a shim or two to make the stack like l(()) or ll(()) to make up for the thinner configuration of the bellevilles most likely you will loose freespool and on the side of the reel/spool your talking about.
It's hard to see from the pic how the washers are configured but the pic of them on the shaft to me it looks like there is more room. Meaning the spool is moving left to the non handle side and rubbing.
If the reel was working fine before and not now I'll bet the bellevilles are not stacked correctly or missing a shim.
I'll now assemble reel while leaving shaft in place.
Rise of drag plate above side of spool seems fine & in line with what I've seen with other 12's.
Socal, what your saying I know is true in a lot of cases. The spring washers have been in stock position. I've replaced them twice with new while trying to get this reel sorted... Jeff
After getting back together. No free spool still exist. I'm not giving up on it just yet.
Cool buddy like I said I have no idea what the washer stack should be. But I have played around with enough LD reels to know if your getting rubbing/ no freespool and its coming from the non handle side 90% of the time it is the washer stack. Just try ()(), ))((, ))() and such I bet you will find the issue there.
It just sucks having to do this because it means you have to take the reel almost fully apart to mess with the bellevilles. >:(
Socal, I've been inside the Andros reels so many times I can usually diagnose what's wrong with out taking them apart.
But this one has me stumped. This reel is still pretty new. It doesn't show the signs of wear that this fellas other reels I've been through did.
I've already tried different configurations of the bellevilles.
Even assembled it with out them. Neither changed anything.
You think of anything else be sure to post. Thanks, Jeff
All of the schematics of the Andros 12 I have seen don't show the belleville config, they show the washers but not there config.
One thing for sure if you did install the the shaft and spool without the washeres there is no surprise you didn't get freespool. There would be no way you could.
Sorry I couldn't help more, good luck.
At the point i did that I was ready to try anything just to see if it would change anything at all.
Did you change any of the bearings?
Maybe it needs a shim or two by the Belleville's.
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 06, 2018, 04:50:12 AM
Did you change any of the bearings?
Bryan, I have not. Along with spool, shaft & frame bearings are another ive not changed. I really hadnt seen the need.
But speak up if you think different. Ive new bearings on hand.
Quote from: MarkT on March 06, 2018, 04:57:32 AM
Maybe it needs a shim or two by the Belleville's.
Mark, your not the first to suggest this. Please feel free to tell me if I'm not understanding correctly.
But a shim on the left side of the spool with bellevilles would force the other side of the spool with drag to the right. This seems to be what's causing the issue.
Being not enough room. Causing the drag to be prematurely engaged. At least that's how I'm seeing at the moment.
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 06, 2018, 05:27:07 AM
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 06, 2018, 04:50:12 AM
Did you change any of the bearings?
Bryan, I have not. Along with spool, shaft & frame bearings are another ive not changed. I really hadnt seen the need.
But speak up if you think different. Ive new bearings on hand.
Hi Jeff,
I'm just thinking through each of the steps in my head.
Okay, spool assembly. Belleville's then bearing. Unsert into the spool. Add spacer and clicker racher then fasten by screws. Turn the spool over then add second spool bearing and spring then dual pressure plate assembly and fasten with wire ring. If nothing has changed, then it cannot be the spool assembly.
The only thing I can think of is that the spool pressure plate is not mating up with the ar ratchet/pinion assembly
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 06, 2018, 05:58:31 AM
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 06, 2018, 05:27:07 AM
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 06, 2018, 04:50:12 AM
Did you change any of the bearings?
Bryan, I have not. Along with spool, shaft & frame bearings are another ive not changed. I really hadnt seen the need.
But speak up if you think different. Ive new bearings on hand.
Hi Jeff,
I'm just thinking through each of the steps in my head.
Okay, spool assembly. Belleville's then bearing. Unsert into the spool. Add spacer and clicker racher then fasten by screws. Turn the spool over then add second spool bearing and spring then dual pressure plate assembly and fasten with wire ring. If nothing has changed, then it cannot be the spool assembly.
OK this may be.
But it doesn't seem to make sense why this spool, frame, drag assembly has the same issue with 2 completely different drive side assemblies ?
Bryan I'll look close at my reels to see how they mesh together between the drag & drive side. I've done this several times. I could have missed something.
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 06, 2018, 05:34:50 AM
Quote from: MarkT on March 06, 2018, 04:57:32 AM
Maybe it needs a shim or two by the Belleville's.
Mark, your not the first to suggest this. Please feel free to tell me if I'm not understanding correctly.
But a shim on the left side of the spool with bellevilles would force the other side of the spool with drag to the right. This seems to be what's causing the issue.
Being not enough room. Causing the drag to be prematurely engaged. At least that's how I'm seeing at the moment.
You can shim:
1)On either side of the Bellevilles (outside is better, unless you have a thrust washer same diameter as inside bearing race, then inside) this pulls the spool left and engages the drag against the spool quicker.
2)on the inside of the clips (left will move spool right, right will move spool left), this will tighten up the spool play (if there is any) and may improve freespool by maintaining constant side load in the inner races if the spool bearings. Shim should be ultra thin, and same diameter as inner race. Or removd both c-clips and make a spool sleeve outta brass tubing to acomplish the same.
3)Under either spool bearing (left will move spool right, right will move it left)
4)On either side of the drag spring (this will increase tension on drag spring and seperate drag plates).
Note shimming anywhere 1, 3, &4 will decrease spacing along the spool shaft with regards to the drag components resulting in decreased preset adjustment at a given drag setting.
5)Under the pinion bearing (this decreases preset, moves the drag components closer to the spool as 1 unit).
An accurate caliper to measure each of your distances (Belleville stack height/remaining available space here, c-clip to c-clip remaining space here, each of the bearings inner race widths, drag components height, drag spring height compressed/uncompressed, and maybe change in exposed spool shaft height with compressed verses uncompressed drag components.
When it comes to shimming less is more, and sometimes it's just easier to experiment a bit.
Test freespool with various amounts of pull pressure/shaft movement with the spool assembled on the side plate only.
Also make sure it's nothing obvious like binding components due to marring or spool rubbing on the frame.
Don't mean to overcomplicate/think this one, just test and make minor changes before retesting until it works.
John
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 06, 2018, 06:04:45 AM
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 06, 2018, 05:58:31 AM
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 06, 2018, 05:27:07 AM
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 06, 2018, 04:50:12 AM
Did you change any of the bearings?
Bryan, I have not. Along with spool, shaft & frame bearings are another ive not changed. I really hadnt seen the need.
But speak up if you think different. Ive new bearings on hand.
Hi Jeff,
I'm just thinking through each of the steps in my head.
Okay, spool assembly. Belleville's then bearing. Unsert into the spool. Add spacer and clicker racher then fasten by screws. Turn the spool over then add second spool bearing and spring then dual pressure plate assembly and fasten with wire ring. If nothing has changed, then it cannot be the spool assembly.
OK this may be.
But it doesn't seem to make sense why this spool, frame, drag assembly has the same issue with 2 completely different drive side assemblies ?
That means the issue is in that spool/drag assembly somewhere. Use a caliper to measure each of the components of each separate assembly, and find out where the nonfunctioning one differs. Try to duplicate the functioning one.
John
John, your not over complicating at all. I've already sleeved the spool in the past.Fella wanted easy access to bearings should he have to replace them while on a trip. Pushing on the spool bearings you can feel less than 0.001 of play.
I don't believe you can get much better free spool on the
Andros by sleeving them. But it sure makes servicing them much easier.
I'll measure everything tomorrow. Report back what I find.
I agree sleeving the spool shaft makes servicing much easier - trying to push that cross pin into the shaft whilst compressing the bellevilles is a pita.
The fact that you don't get freespool with a completely different drive side assembly rules out the drive assembly.
Logically that leaves the frame and spool assembly.
Try swapping the frame and spool (one at a time). That should identify the culprit. If it does start measuring and comparing the good and bad - it only takes a few thou to screw it up!
One after thought springs to mind - I believe you changed the drag washer. Did you use an Okuma stock washer? If custom cut is the thickness right - should be 1mm iirc.
Jeff,
I'm sorry, I cannot think of anything else that could be causing your trouble without having the reel in my hand. My mind can only handle so much information...and this has be puzzled beyond belief. If I think of anything else, I'll let you know.
Bryan
Quote from: SoCalAngler on March 06, 2018, 04:38:12 AM
All of the schematics of the Andros 12 I have seen don't show the belleville config, they show the washers but not there config.
One thing for sure if you did install the the shaft and spool without the washeres there is no surprise you didn't get freespool. There would be no way you could.
Sorry I couldn't help more, good luck.
All of the Andros bellevilles I've seen are oriented ()(). I'm far from an expert on these lever drags. I'm getting better. I appreciate any attempt at helping... Jeff
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on March 06, 2018, 01:07:30 PM
I agree sleeving the spool shaft makes servicing much easier - trying to push that cross pin into the shaft whilst compressing the bellevilles is a pita.
The fact that you don't get freespool with a completely different drive side assembly rules out the drive assembly.
Logically that leaves the frame and spool assembly.
Try swapping the frame and spool (one at a time). That should identify the culprit. If it does start measuring and comparing the good and bad - it only takes a few thou to screw it up!
One after thought springs to mind - I believe you changed the drag washer. Did you use an Okuma stock washer? If custom cut is the thickness right - should be 1mm iirc.
Chris, first I greatly appreciate your willingness to help. I have agreed with everything you've said. Even If I've already done what you suggest it's not a problem at all. I'll go back again just to be sure. My personal 12N is being used by a friend. So I am lacking the frame & spool for this reel. Drag washers used were all unused factory stock. Sure makes it easy to diagnose stuff when you have the same reel on hand.
Chris you've been an asset & just a great fella to have on this site... Jeff
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 06, 2018, 01:24:23 PM
Jeff,
I'm sorry, I cannot think of anything else that could be causing your trouble without having the reel in my hand. My mind can only handle so much information...and this has be puzzled beyond belief. If I think of anything else, I'll let you know.
Bryan
Bryan, you've always been a great help. You've helped me a lot in the past when I was far more clueless than I am at the moment... Jeff
here is whats happening. Drive side is not fully installed in frame. Free spool would be lost as shown.
There is a fine line with this Dual Force drag on the Andros between the needed compression of the metal plates to achieve good free spool & engaging the drag losing free spool... Jeff
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u7ubzVpXn5ATSbUsF4aZBnuY2EUNI2xz/view?usp=sharing
Weird ???.....sure seems like there just ain't nuf room in there somehow.....I've never opened one, but am following with interest! I'm sure you'll figure it out!
Brett
Jeff, Im checking this very close cuz Im interested on this reel once I finish some moving expenses for my daughter in the university (seems like never ending), anyway.
can I ask what happened to this reel when this problem started?
it was for figthing a big fish?
I understand this is not your reel, so what your friend told you he was doing when the problem appeared?
I remember you saying that your 12n made a weird noise that none of your andros12 have, so, seems like the 12n have a really small tolerance to mistakes and/or disalighments when working on the reel.
IT'S FIXED !! IT'S WORKING !! .... YAHOO!!!
Need to change out some things & get it boxed up & sent out. I know a fella that's going to be very happy to have his performing better than new, upgraded reel back.
I'LL GET BACK... JEFF
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 06, 2018, 09:55:27 PM
IT'S FIXED !! IT'S WORKING !! .... YAHOO!!!
Need to change out some things & get it boxed up & sent out. I know a fella that's going to be very happy to have his performing better than new, upgraded reel back.
I'LL GET BACK... JEFF
That's great news!
I knew you would get it sorted. It is super handy to have a working version available to help with fixing the malfunctioning one.
John
OK I want to think every one who contributed helping here. I will be finishing up a tutorial on this reel soon on this reel. Running into issues like this does make feel less than able to do that.
I measured all individual drag components & found them to all be very close for a mass produced ree. In fact I was pretty impressed. For reference the small fiber washer that mounts directly to spool measured .052 in thickness on the reel I'm dealing with.
The large fiber washer measured .049 & .048 among 4 different reels. The steel plates showed no difference worth mentioning the pinion guard measured within .087 - .089. Pretty darn good.
Then pinion guard is what was causing the issue & we need to be aware of this. But measured well within the specs of my other reels. Keep in mind this is a part that sees heavy stress. Ive 3 years of heavy use with high drag on one of my 12's. Never yet have I needed to replace this part. The fix is very simple & has to do with getting the pinion guard / adapter to mesh properly with the anti reverse gear.
In the first pic look at the line where the drive side meets the frame there is a gap. You cant twist the drive side lugs into the frame with any gap. the trick I found is wiggling the drive side a bit to get the drive side to settle into the frame properly.
You should feel absolutely no push back to the drive side from the drag assembly while doing this. After your convinced you have it settled as good as possible, prior to twisting the lugs of the drive side into place hold the frame & drive side as shown in the pic & push the spool toward the drive side while wiggling the drive side.
This is only if your feeling pressure prior to getting fit up with a tight fit of the pinion guard & anti reverse gear. These really are fantastic reels for the money... Jeff
Quote from: steelfish on March 06, 2018, 08:53:54 PM
Jeff, Im checking this very close cuz Im interested on this reel once I finish some moving expenses for my daughter in the university (seems like never ending), anyway.
can I ask what happened to this reel when this problem started?
it was for figthing a big fish?
I understand this is not your reel, so what your friend told you he was doing when the problem appeared?
I remember you saying that your 12n made a weird noise that none of your andros12 have, so, seems like the 12n have a really small tolerance to mistakes and/or disalighments when working on the reel.
He had removed the drive side to service after a trip. Reel worked great the whole trip. Loss of free spool after reassembly. I believe this issue has to do with knowing what to look for during reassembly.
It seems by looking around a bit Andros 12 A series had it's issues. The handle spinning backwards while on the line winder being filled with braid was one that I'm aware of that postponed the on going release of the 12. Some of the early 12N's had various issues with free spool. I do wonder how many of these were the same as this one. I dont consider it an issue once one understands it.
I've run into some Andros 12's with tite gearing. This is something I don't like at all. Makes the reel feel like it's experiencing bearing load. As far as I know all these known issues have been taken care of
Glad you got it working. I can't wait for the write up. I don't know some of the terms so I'm puzzled. What else is new?
On another note the reel is going back to Okuma. I took this reel apart several more times just to check it to be sure. I had to fiddle with it repeatedly to get every thing lined up properly. This isn't acceptable to me based on my reels, nor do I think it would be for Okuma either... Jeff
Glad you finally fixed it :) One thing I've found with the Andros single drag (haven't had a twin drag yet) when attaching the drive side move the drag lever slightly off of the free spool position - doesn't need to be too far. This makes it easier to push and twist the side plate. Maybe the same on the 12N :-\
Chris, I hadn't thought of doing that with the lever. Seems to me it might be an easier way to do things than what I described... Jeff
I need to add here that I discovered recently the spool sleeve on this reel was added by the owner of the reel. It being of the same material I use when sleeving reels I assumed I had done it. The sleeve was in fact causing the issue.
The Andros A series with the Dual Force drag can present clearance issues when sleeving. With the belleville washers not being compressed the stack takes up more space on the spool shaft the spool is forced to the right into the drag assembly with the lever at free spool position. With spool no longer in a neutral position.
You can play around with the orientation of the washers but not without bringing up other issues especially when attempting to add a sleeve. Shimming can help alleviate this.
Any time you change the stock configuration of the spool shaft & belleville washers the spacing tolerances are changed very often causing issues with free spool... Jeff
So, you are becoming an expert on Andros reels
May I asume that now your reel is working as it should?
Jeff - did you skim the spool sleeve to give a bit more clearance?
Quote from: steelfish on March 18, 2018, 03:18:10 AM
So, you are becoming an expert on Andros reels
May I asume that now your reel is working as it should?
Every time I learn something new about these lever drags it is then the realization of just how little I do know is driven very firmly home. Reel is for the most part working as it should. Read my following reply to Chris... Jeff
Chris, yes I did add a shim.
I was needing to get this reel back to it's owner & had little time to mess about any more with it. This fella needed easy access to all the bearings because the reel gets dunked in saltwater on occasion. He wanted the ability to replace bearings without the need for any special tools.
So I replaced the two inner retaining rings on the shaft for the spool bearing spacing & installed the spring washers ((() vs the stock ()(). This allows for easy replacement of the left side spool bearing & installation of the spring washers. The C clip can be put in place simply with pliers.
However this can create a loss of range in the cast control adjustment.
The original Andros 5 made prior to the dual force drag aren't as troublesome to sleeve. Clip below showing free spool. I didn't spin it hard at all Jeff
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uxXseE333-9Siwtf1eBmykUZO_rb638J/view?usp=sharing
The original series Andros were quite easy to work on - including sleeving the spool. The only problems I ever had were with silent dogs - they could be a pita >:(