Has any one tried a bushing in place of a bearing in a lever drag? I cant be the only one who's thought about it.
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 03, 2015, 05:16:49 AM
Has any one tried a bushing in place of a bearing in a lever drag? I cant be the only one who's thought about it.
Alan and I discussed it then realized that a bearing is needed because the pinion gear spins and it would be difficult to turn the handle if a bushing is used.
Brian, we have that same thing with some spool spindles. Am I missing something?
Cheap to try. I may give it a whirl.....Jeff
Bushings are best used to help support rotating shafts within it's ID. They are no good in places where rotation is also needed under the duress of axial loads, as per the case with LD reels. ;)
Quote from: Fish-aholic on July 03, 2015, 02:16:02 PM
Bushings are best used to help support rotating shafts within it's ID. They are no good in places where rotation is also needed under the duress of axial loads, as per the case with LD reels. ;)
^^This.
You can polish bushings and get quite good performance for the spinning side of things. But if you put an axial load on it then it rapidly becomes a drag washer.
This is what you do with regular bearingsin most LD reels too of course....it's just that they remain free spinning until the cage deflection becomes too great and then bearing damage and handle binding result.
maybe a good idea to combine the two, they might play nice together :-\.
Bushing with thrust bearing on both sides?
After some thought this would be far from great also.
I have thought a lot in the past regarding what Sal brings up combining a bushing & bearing. I'm also wondering if a step in diameter in the shaft in the transition from one to the other would help in some way. Just thinking out loud.
Some times I think that thoughts along these lines are a waste. But I'm reminded this simply is not true. When one looks at the gun industry & dealing with the pressures of new cartridges in semi auto.....Also even here on this forum there is Sal & others improving the performance several levels using ANTIQUE GEAR ;D & surpassing in some instances the performance of reels made today in the same class.
So I will continue to believe these mental & mechanical gymnastics are a worth while endeavor.
The lever drag has far to many benefits for me not to use it for my end goal of a record size fish. The high maintenance compared to other makes of reels is of course it's weakness. That is why I bring this up...Jeff
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 03, 2015, 06:43:30 PM
Bushing with thrust bearing on both sides?
One side, you don't want the plane bearing (bushing) turning.
The real cure is to find a source for affordable angular contact bearings.
Keta, I do believe that at some point the wide use of an angular contact bearing is coming. I have often wondered what the hold up is. As soon as I can find the size of the pinion bearing for my A-Series 12 I'm going to start looking to see whats available & the cost. Being that I don't fish salt water. I'm thinking I can get away with chrome-molly or carbon steel. Should help make it cheaper.
My tools & dial gauge are some distance from me any one know the size of this bearing please let me know.
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 03, 2015, 08:49:10 PM
Keta, I do believe that at some point the wide use of an angular contact bearing is coming. I have often wondered what the hold up is. As soon as I can find the size of the pinion bearing for my A-Series 12 I'm going to start looking to see whats available & the cost. Being that I don't fish salt water. I'm thinking I can get away with chrome-molly or carbon steel. Should help make it cheaper.
My tools & dial gauge are some distance from me any one know the size of this bearing please let me know.
Bearings are one of the ultimate volume manufactured commodities. If you can use 10,000 of them then the price comes down a bit. For a 100,000 units then the tooling starts to pay off (numbers out of thin air but you get the idea).
Some standard bearing we see all the time is probably produced in the hundreds of thousands of units from a single factory and sold worldwide.
Avet's number they need for a saltwater resistant angular contact bearing are pretty far down the road from that...and the cost would probably only add a very small number of additional sales to them.
The Penn answer has been the thrust bearing assembly, but I have no insight as to how they figure in the cost equation. But truly, the cost is the spool redesign to accommodate it all and make it work. I bet Avet et al are doing their homework on it right now.
Someone around here plugged in some cheap chrome angular contact bearings into a reel....I don't recall how that turned out?
FWIW- Standard ball bearings can handle misalignment much better than angular contact bearings. There is a lot of misalignment going on inside of fishing reels.
John I have been wondering when or if Avet is going to do something in regards to this. They are probably the one that has the biggest need for it. Their HX Raptor is the one reel that I hear more praise than insult about.
I have a friend that fishes Avet reels. He loves them. He is quite content to fish them in their sweet spot. He has little issue with them. Accept at times desiring a bit more usable drag level. Even in some of the Raptor series he wishes they had a bit more. Or better stated wish they could make better use of what they produce in the upper range. He did have an issue with heavy sinkers & their effect on bearings in the little SX.
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 03, 2015, 10:13:52 PM
John I have been wondering when or if Avet is going to do something in regards to this. They are probably the one that has the biggest need for it. There HX Raptor is the one reel that I hear more praise than insult about.
I have a friend that fishes Avet reels. He loves them. He is quite content to fish them in their sweet spot. He has little issue with them. Accept at times desiring a bit more usable drag level. Even in some of the Raptor series he wishes they had a bit more. Or better stated wish they could make better use of what they produce in the upper range. He did have an issue with heavy sinkers & their effect on bearings in the little SX.
The thing is the redesign is probably deferred till Avet actually feels the pain in sales. The cost of the actual engineering process is not inconsiderable and that has deferred this issue in the past. R and D at these companies is not someone using their spare time...it is a budget item by people that are paid to do it.
An Avet is an outstanding reel for the open water live bait fishing that is the norm in Avet's primary market and if you talk to them there is no problem at all with their reels for the coin (they do have a good point there for a Made in USA reel). Don't push an Avet too hard, grease it up and they last forever.
But it's just really weird to take a reel offshore and then worry about pushing it to full if you felt the need....totally counter-logical when Tuna are around (they get big in all the waters you fish for them, if less common some places than others) or when fishing yellows on the bottom etc...but I am sure they are feeling some squeeze with all the competition.
Who knows? ;D
FWIW I spent some time and effort on the Avet MXL Angular Contact bearing question a while back. Not really as a matter of personal concern, but just to put an end to the incessant debating about it. (admittedly, I also aspired to make a potentially lucrative little business of it)
I procured the almost impossible-to-find expensive angular contact bearings of the correct size, as well as thrust bearings, and tested them in a very detailed, exact, scientific method in several different configurations, intending to write a big long post with a lot of pics about it, but never did. Yet.
The thing is, that it really didn't make much difference. The end result was that it did not improve performance much.
I still have one more thing to try there, but just haven't gotten to it yet.
This all doesn't really have relevance to the original question of this thread, but anyway...
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 03, 2015, 05:16:49 AM
Has any one tried a bushing in place of a bearing in a lever drag? I cant be the only one who's thought about it.
Yes. Many years ago. It doesn't work.
Depends on where in the reel you mean, of course... I don't think anyone has asked that. The Ambassadeur 6600LD has a bushing too.
.
Quote from: jurelometer on July 03, 2015, 10:01:30 PM
FWIW- Standard ball bearings can handle misalignment much better than angular contact bearings. There is a lot of misalignment going on inside of fishing reels.
I believe this is very much a non issue when dealing with reels such as the Andros & others that use a cross pin in the main shaft. This pretty much negates any alignment issue. Being that they are self aligning.
Quote from: jurelometer on July 03, 2015, 10:01:30 PM
FWIW- Standard ball bearings can handle misalignment much better than angular contact bearings. There is a lot of misalignment going on inside of fishing reels.
But they do not handle thrust.
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 03, 2015, 11:36:54 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on July 03, 2015, 10:01:30 PM
FWIW- Standard ball bearings can handle misalignment much better than angular contact bearings. There is a lot of misalignment going on inside of fishing reels.
I believe this is very much a non issue when dealing with reels such as the Andros & others that use a cross pin in the main shaft. This pretty much negates any alignment issue. Being that they are self aligning.
I may be misunderstanding your post but:
The issue is that in a standard bearing the bearing is used as a "drag washer" of sorts with a lot of pressure on the inner race. This is the cause of "misalignment" of the cage inside the bearing that then causes binding. If there is binding you are damaging the bearing leading to eventual failure. The angular contact bearing uses a different cage design that balances it's ability to handle Axial and Radial loads.
Unfortunately, they are not produced in great number with stainless steel balls leading the few around (hard to even find he right sizes) to be extremely expensive, like $100 each or something crazy like that.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on July 03, 2015, 11:00:34 PM
FWIW I spent some time and effort on the Avet MXL Angular Contact bearing question a while back. Not really as a matter of personal concern, but just to put an end to the incessant debating about it. (admittedly, I also aspired to make a potentially lucrative little business of it)
I procured the almost impossible-to-find expensive angular contact bearings of the correct size, as well as thrust bearings, and tested them in a very detailed, exact, scientific method in several different configurations, intending to write a big long post with a lot of pics about it, but never did. Yet.
The thing is, that it really didn't make much difference. The end result was that it did not improve performance much.
I still have one more thing to try there, but just haven't gotten to it yet.
This all doesn't really have relevance to the original question of this thread, but anyway...
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 03, 2015, 05:16:49 AM
Has any one tried a bushing in place of a bearing in a lever drag? I cant be the only one who's thought about it.
Yes. Many years ago. It doesn't work.
Depends on where in the reel you mean, of course... I don't think anyone has asked that. The Ambassadeur 6600LD has a bushing too.
.
Right around the same time I also found a AC bearing for the Avet's but the one I found was inexpensive. Just like Robert changing to a AC bearing alone for the pinion bearing did nothing to reduce the side load and offer better freespool at higher than rated drag loads.
P.S. The AC bearing I found cost just a little more than the radial/standard pinion bearing, if I remember correctly it was like $6-$7.
SoCal, Please dont take this wrong I dont know that it is or was the case. But I have seen some of the bearings being passed here & other places as angular contact bearings & technically they may be. But my thoughts are they are not the specific type that are needed in our case. It may be just as you & Robert are saying. But in my mind this wouldnt make sense.
Robert seems a smart fella I do find it hard to believe he got it wrong. Not that I'm calling any one stupid.
It is pretty easy to look at a AC bearing and tell the difference from a radial bearing. On a radial bearing the inner race is the same thickness on both sides of the bearing. Now with a AC bearing the inner race is thicker on one side, this is how the cone shape is made which holds the rollers making it a AC bearing. Also pretty easy to see when you take off a shield to repack the bearing which I did. A radial bearing used balls and not rollers. When installing a AC bearing you must install it the correct way in order to have it receive the side load correctly. In this case the load is coming from the pinion so the fatter inside race must be on the pinion side and not the outside closest to the side plate.
It may not make sense to you but other factors come into play in helping reduce the side load on pinion bearings other than just adding a AC bearing.
Two different people tried it independently from one another, with I'm sure, two different bearing manufactures and the end result was the same, very little or no change to Avet's side load issue.
I'm more concerned with bearing failure, deep grove bearings tend to crack the outer race.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on July 04, 2015, 04:31:48 AM
It is pretty easy to look at a AC bearing and tell the difference from a radial bearing.
Correct!
But this all still leaves me dismayed & wondering how some are changing out the bearings such as Tiddlerbasher with his Andros 5n & he gets significant improvement over the stock bearing . That is what I'm not understanding. SoCal I fully believe you. I just have a desire to gain a better understanding of why this bearing change seems to work for some reels & not others.
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 04, 2015, 05:20:33 AM
I just have a desire to gain a better understanding
Have you serviced/changed trailer bearings, they are AC bearings. They can be overloaded by over tightening the nut just like one would be overloaded when used as a pinion bearing.
Oh I understand this part of it. I edited my prior post to better explain what I meant when I made the statement regarding a better understanding.
Here we go. If you have not read it it's Tiddlebasher's post with the Andros 5 pic in it.
This is what I dont understand the conflicting claims. I know others who have done it & claim great benifit. Not that I don't understand what is going on mechanically in the very least a basic sense of it...Jeff
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=1624.msg65926#msg65926
On smaller ac bearings it is often a symetrical inner race and a thicker outer race denotes the thrust receiving side.
The orientation of the ac bearings is paramount. On the GMN bearings, I used, the inner races are the same both sides. But the outer races are noticeably thicker on one side. The thicker side must go to the spool and sideplate. As in this diagram:
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/Tiddlerbasher/acbearing_zpsdc6eb3fb.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Tiddlerbasher/media/acbearing_zpsdc6eb3fb.jpg.html)
Some interesting facts I picked up from the SMB site. It was comparing static radial load capability of 6x15x5mm deep groove radial bearing.
Stainless steel 42Kgf
ZrO2 (ceramic) 39Kgf
Chrome steel 52Kgf
The axial force rating is approx. 20-25% of radial :o - Not very much in other words.
I am now thinking of perhaps swapping out the 2 affected ss bearings and replacing with chrome steel ones. Will need changing more often :( (particularly in the salt) but they are much stronger and far chheaper :)
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on July 04, 2015, 09:04:05 AM
On smaller ac bearings it is often a symetrical inner race and a thicker outer race denotes the thrust receiving side.
The orientation of the ac bearings is paramount. On the GMN bearings, I used, the inner races are the same both sides. But the outer races are noticeably thicker on one side. The thicker side must go to the spool and sideplate. As in this diagram:
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/Tiddlerbasher/acbearing_zpsdc6eb3fb.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Tiddlerbasher/media/acbearing_zpsdc6eb3fb.jpg.html)
Some interesting facts I picked up from the SMB site. It was comparing static radial load capability of 6x15x5mm deep groove radial bearing.
Stainless steel 42Kgf
ZrO2 (ceramic) 39Kgf
Chrome steel 52Kgf
The axial force rating is approx. 20-25% of radial :o - Not very much in other words.
I am now thinking of perhaps swapping out the 2 affected ss bearings and replacing with chrome steel ones. Will need changing more often :( (particularly in the salt) but they are much stronger and far chheaper :)
It gets even more complicated. The axial load capacity increases as radial load is applied (within limits). The 20-25% number you are seeing is probably the sweet spot to get the maximum axial load. As axial load is applied, the angle of bearing first contact increases (countered by any radial load). I would guess with lever drag pinion bearings, the radial load is usual zero (pinion not turning) It looks to me like ACBs are simply ball bearings with the walls extended and beefed up at a specific angle. This means that you also need to select the bearing with the appropriate contact angle for your application. The greater the angle, the more axial load, and the more the bearing takes on the features and limits of a thrust bearing, becoming less like a deep grove bearing.
If you dig deeper into the tutorials at the bearing mfrs site (NSK has some good ones), you can find charts and formulas for calculating the axial load limits at different radial loads, and what the pressure angle will be at different axial loads etc. You can probably figure out the actual axial load you are generating for a given drag setting for a specific reel - (I did something similar for ARBs and dogs- but was kidded mercilessly :) and get an idea of the ballpark you are playing in.
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 03, 2015, 11:36:54 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on July 03, 2015, 10:01:30 PM
FWIW- Standard ball bearings can handle misalignment much better than angular contact bearings. There is a lot of misalignment going on inside of fishing reels.
I believe this is very much a non issue when dealing with reels such as the Andros & others that use a cross pin in the main shaft. This pretty much negates any alignment issue. Being that they are self aligning.
1. All bearings work best when kept in near perfect alignment with the appropriate amount of axial force (even sometimes with gadgetry to axially preload).
2. Precision increase manufacturing costs and decreases lifespan (reels designed to be less precise can accomodate greater wear- look at the old senators for an example. -or and old F150 pickup compared to a Lambourghini).
3. There are reel frames, sideplates, shaft junctions, shafts, spools, all affecting the alignment of the bearings at various loads. Every time you service the reel you change the spindle axis angle a little bit. I understand the self aligning concept, but at least some of the systems alignment is tied to the frame and sideplate.
4. Ball bearings are a jack-of-all-trades in terms of providing a good blend of supporting out-of-alignment situations, some axial load, low friction, high RPM, etc. This is why they are so common. Specialty bearings provide more capability in one or two areas with less in others.
5. Solid bearings (AKA bushings) don't get the respect they deserve. As materials improve, they are being used increasing in place of mechanical (ball/roller) bearings for high and low load applications. John and others are probably right about bushings not working for the reels you are discussing, but I suspect a very adequate reel could be design from scratch using solid bearings.
It could well be that the there is an specific ACB for a specific reel where the tradeoffs are an improvement over the stock ball bearing. But ACBs are not inherently better, just different.
As a disclaimer- I have been reading up on this stuff to help with some designs. I'm definitely not the expert on bearings, or just about anything else:).
-J
Finding any ac bearings in sizes smaller than 10mm id is difficult ::) But finding them as small, affordable and with a choice of contact angle - good luck! This is why I'm seriously considering chrome steel deep groove (i.e. regular) bearings. Damaged? Chuck it & put in another, they are cheap! Until reel manufacturers start using thrust washers by default we will continue to get handle binding :(
Avet charges $5.00 for their deep grove pinion bearings but add shipping and labor to the cost and my customers are out too much $ for a design problem.
Combining a thrust bearing like below with a roller bearing would work but the frame and shaft would have to be modified.
(http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server1000/e2cd7/products/1654/images/2282/ThrustBearing__20827.1401387597.1280.1280.jpg?c=2)
jurelometer, good post!