Besides the price....is there any reason to not use flouro carbon exclusively as a top shot on saltwater reels? Bill
I thought this was the way to go for a while after my first SOA trip as well, and still think floro is the correct answer. As Luke described on the boat, for Wahoo and other hard fighters a bit of stretch makes it easier to keep the line tight. I get around that by using softer rods than what is en vogue, but if you have an ultra fast rod backed by braid then mono at the end can be beneficial.
The Man
Floro is more invisible in water,,,,, ;) but has a life span of 7yrs maybe,,,, ??? Different brands are different,,,,,,, ;D
I prefer mono as the stretch makes it more forgiving and helps you by absorbing some of the head shakes and other sudden movements of the fish.
Braid in contrast is much stronger and less likely to break, but fish manage to shake a hook and lure easier.
So I would say the type of fish you are after and the place where you are fishing influence this choice. A softer rod will indeed help but can not compensate for the huge stretch in mono.
Freshwater I fish mainly stocked trout, and use 2# Fluorocarbon. Saltwater I fish for flounder/fluke and use 20# braid with a 20# fluorocarbon leader. Fluorocarbon I use Pline 1/2 the price of many brands, and is rated in the top 5. Braid I did use Pro line, I now use a Chinese knock off Hercules from ebay. Again 1/2 the price, and find it just as good as higher priced brands.
a short piiece of stiff, heavy fluoro can act as a fiber-optic when clear/shallow/sunny
it may "light up" & divert something like a cuda from your lure, to your leader
[read not experienced]
The first time i used flouro as a leader was the last time I used mono leader. Forget every other comparison, i catch more fish on flouro. That's all i need.
I never use flouro line, but always use flouro leader. But, I'm starting to question flouro abrasion resistance.
When it scrapes on something long slivers of flouro are pulled up; sort of like a piece of wood grain. Maybe I should switch to mono leader.
That's wild about the flouro acting like a piece of fiber optic.
Quote from: oc1 on October 25, 2021, 06:47:22 PM
I never use flouro line, but always use flouro leader. But, I'm starting to question flouro abrasion resistance.
When it scrapes on something long slivers of flouro are pulled up; sort of like a piece of wood grain. Maybe I should switch to mono leader.
That's wild about the flouro acting like a piece of fiber optic.
In considering abrasion resistance, do bear in mind that it's hit some structure, and you're still getting to look at it. Maybe you've never seen that on mono because...
I dunno, it just reminds me of that probably untrue but inspirational story about the guy tasked with figuring out which parts of a fighter plane take the most damage to see where to put more armor.
Quote from: philaroman on October 25, 2021, 12:07:14 PM
a short piiece of stiff, heavy fluoro can act as a fiber-optic when clear/shallow/sunny
it may "light up" & divert something like a cuda from your lure, to your leader
[read not experienced]
There was a guy on one of the fly fishing sites that said he caught this on film when making an underwater video of trout streamers. Said it looked like beads of light pulsing down the line. If I can find the video, I will post the link.
There have been a few other stories about fluoro flashing, but I would like to see something more definitive. There is merit in the idea. If you have material that has a low refractive index and it is surrounded by material that has a higher refractive index (outer surface of the leader, or even the surrounding water), light will be sort of channeled to follow the path of the cylinder of low refraction as a result of "bouncing" at angles off the less refractive "walls". This is sort of how fiber optic cable works, except in the fluoro case the walls are relatively clear, so light is entering and exiting the system along the way.
I also recall reading an article referring to a test where nylon and fluoro line were descended in a bluefin tuna farm pen. The tuna would swim around the mono and into the fluoro. But I can't find the article anymore, and don't remember if the source was very reliable...
A good reason not to use a long fluoro top shot is that the added cost makes folks like me less likely to replace it iin a timely manner if it gets frayed a bit. Fluoro will also degrade more slowly, at least when it is exposed to light, which is a good thing until you get a break off and want the stuff to decompose.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on October 25, 2021, 05:37:03 PM
The first time i used flouro as a leader was the last time I used mono leader. Forget every other comparison, i catch more fish on flouro. That's all i need.
Highly variable phenomenon (catching fish). Execute an an experiment with a sample size of one. Declare victory and switch practice. Not exactly a shining example of the scientific method. What happened to taking one for Team Science? Somebody has to fly that fighter plane ;D
I did start using fluoro more for awhile myself, but I am not stuck on the stuff. I do like hard leader material, and since fluoro took off, it is harder to find hard mono that is not too thick. It seems like all the high quality hard stuff is fluoro nowadays.
-J
I do appreciate the sensitivity of floro, and adding mono anywhere in the chain reduces that. That is why I prefer a soft rod over mono whenever it matters. People on here has said that it does not matter with yellowtail and shibi and I suppose they are right.
The Man
OK... I like fluoro for the 2 qualities that are scientifically indesputable:
better sink-rate & UV resistance... everything else is conjecture/hype ;) ;) ;)
I don't use it for a top shot but all of my salmon leaders are flouro. Harder for the fish to see (I think) but for sure its more abrasion resistant than mono. I can catch more salmon with a flouro leader before it needs to be changed than on mono. Of course I check the leader after every fish. For a top shot for deep jigging I just use mono. At cedros Marrk T showed me that flouro is not necessary for YT and he catches as many as anyone (Don't tell him I said that).
Cheeers:
Todd
Quote from: philaroman on October 25, 2021, 09:34:33 PM
OK... I like fluoro for the 2 qualities that are scientifically indesputable:
better sink-rate & UV resistance... everything else is conjecture/hype ;) ;) ;)
Um, no.
Floro does not possess the stretch of typical monofilament. That is not hype. It is also harder for ME to see in the water, and it is a scientific fact that we have better eyesight than fish.
The sink rate is nice though.
The Man
People seem to think that fluoro doesn't stretch. While it's not as stretchy as mono, it' still stretches plenty. However, with just a few feet of fluoro, how much can it stretch anyway? It's like saying water is wetter than milk.
From Segur:
FACT: Yes, fluorocarbon lines and leaders do stretch, but not as much as mono. Line typically has more stretch than leader. All Seaguar lines and leaders provide the optimum amount of shock impact/stretch.
https://seaguar.com/applications/myths
While I do not have a percentage of stretch, I can state with authority that fluorocarbon lines provide increased sensitivity, which help immensely with soft takers such as coho from the estuary. For those applications I am sold.
Mark does this way more than I ever will (like, he probably fished more long range days this year than I will in my lifetime,) and he doesn't use floro for yellowtail, so I recommend you follow his advise. I'm happy with my method.
The Man
I know that it shouldn't bother me, but it does: Monofilament means single filament. We are comparing nylon vs. fluorocarbon monofilament lines. OK. I feel better know.
Both can be made with varying amounts of stretch and hardness. And also different diameter to breaking strength ratios. There is wide variability in the manufacturing processes, and the mechanical properties of the base materials themselves are relatively close.
When soaked in water for awhile, the base materials have about the same breaking strength to diameter ratio. Nylon will tend to be limper. Both have the similar maximum elongation (stretch at failure), but fluoro resists stretching at lower loads, where nylon stretches more evenly across the load spectrum.
But once they start messing with recipe, especially making copolymers, and then muck with manufacturing practices such as how the fiber is pre stretched and then tempered, the properties can change so much that there is plenty of overlap possible between fluoro and nylon in terms of hardness, stretch and breaking strength to diameter ratio.
Some of my favorite bite tippet materials for fly fishing was the specialized hard nylon. I think I that it is more abrasion resistant than the fluoro leader products that have mostly replaced it. The most extreme stuff was Mason hard nylon. That stuff was so stiff that it was sort of like fishing with wire. The larger diameters had to be stretched/ straightened in advance. Don't know if that stuff is made any more. It was kinda overkill. Still use it for making weed guards on flies.
-J
Quote from: Ron Jones on October 25, 2021, 11:53:50 PM
From Segur:
FACT: Yes, fluorocarbon lines and leaders do stretch, but not as much as mono. Line typically has more stretch than leader. All Seaguar lines and leaders provide the optimum amount of shock impact/stretch.
https://seaguar.com/applications/myths
While I do not have a percentage of stretch, I can state with authority that fluorocarbon lines provide increased sensitivity, which help immensely with soft takers such as coho from the estuary. For those applications I am sold.
Mark does this way more than I ever will (like, he probably fished more long range days this year than I will in my lifetime,) and he doesn't use floro for yellowtail, so I recommend you follow his advise. I'm happy with my method.
The Man
Sorry. I am just to jaded at this point. I don't take anything a tackle manufacturer tells me at face value.
When a line company claims that Fluoro has less stretch, I am guessing that they are referring mostly to less stretch at the low end of the load spectrum. It is the lack of stretch at lower load levels that is more important to sensitivity anyways. Normally, this stuff is easy to figure out by looking up the base material properties, but fluoro and monofilament line properties get modified a lot by the manufacturing process.
My opinion is that if you are interested in sensitivity, main line diameter can be more important than stretch. More diameter leads to more bow in the line, which has the same effect on sensitivity as stretch does. While more of a pain to rig, thin braid to a short stretchy mono leader is going to be more sensitive than a reel loaded with low stretch mono for many situations.
-J
kinda' sorta' my point
for my light F/W applications, pre-stretched nylon tinted correctly for specific location
is same or slightly better than clear fluoro, for stealth/strength/sensitivity
...and that's EXCLUDING PRICE CONSIDERATIONS!!!
at roughly same price-point, I'm comparing fluoro running line to dedicated nylon leader/tippet,
so nylon wins, unless I want some section of my line to sink faster or hang out in the sun longer
finally, what the heck is "abrasion"? can someone please delineate? ;D
is rubbing on concrete/sandstone same as smooth granite?
If I'm over muscle beds, shouldn't I forget abrasions & worry about lacerations ::)
as far as I gather abrasion comparrisons are between lines of same
alleged strength -- WHY??? ???
if 10# fluoro running line & 14# nylon tippet are about same diameter AND same price,
then THAT is what I want compared for nick/cut/scuff-resistance
Quote from: Ron Jones on October 25, 2021, 09:57:29 PM
Quote from: philaroman on October 25, 2021, 09:34:33 PM
OK... I like fluoro for the 2 qualities that are scientifically indesputable:
better sink-rate & UV resistance... everything else is conjecture/hype ;) ;) ;)
Um, no.
Floro does not possess the stretch of typical monofilament. That is not hype. It is also harder for ME to see in the water, and it is a scientific fact that we have better eyesight than fish.
The sink rate is nice though.
The Man
not gonna use "typical" running line and you can't make me :P
if fish are are line-shy, how do you know they are specifically seeing it w/ eyes,
rather than detecting the disturbance/vibrations in the water column
(w/ lateral line, barbels, skull chambers, whatever)
methinks, on many occasions, thinner means more than less visible
Yeah, every manufacturer will have their song and dance. Are fishing tackle manufacturers worse are than other industries? I'll have to think about that one.
I'm not a Berkley fan, but here's their marketing:
https://www.berkley-fishing.com/pages/berkley-ae-why-use-fluorocarbon (https://www.berkley-fishing.com/pages/berkley-ae-why-use-fluorocarbon)
What is abrasion resistance? That's when something is eroded by scraping against a surface. It should be easy enough to test. I wish it was tested by guys in white lab coats with shiny instruments with a lot of gauges and stuff. This guy with a piece of sandpaper and a box is what I found first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiQTvmM-1cY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiQTvmM-1cY)
"Shocking results"
Not shocked at all, I've observed this abrasion resistance difference in actual fishing. The fluoro leaders get all stringy and rough from toothy fishes and structure much more than mono, and need changing out frequently. However, I still go with the fluoro (leaders) as the end result is still higher catch ratio. For main line, I never use fluoro, too stiff (and expensive).
Fluoro isn't some miracle line even though it's priced like it is! Personally, I never use fluoro when fishing YT or when the fish are aggressive. There's no need... they don't have teeth and aren't shy! I do use fluoro when fishing for BFT since they tend to be finicky and have teeth and I do feel I get more bites with fluoro leaders than with straight mono. YMMV.
I'm spoiled on flouro for it's sensitivity. Doing jigging most of the time, detecting bites and also feeling the bottom is paramount to keeping my lure in the strike zone.
It does tend to hold knots better but I'm not really sold on abrasion resitence. Rocks vs line is a losing battle no matter what material is used.
Concerning the jargon, I use this approach:
I type on this forum the way I speak on a long range trip or on the shore of a bay, none of us are wearing lab coats (except J, I am convinced that J wears a lab coat just to ensure he can tell people they are wrong when they say none of us wear lab coats :)). I am certain that if Lee, Tom, Jimmer et all were sitting on the SOA we would, without a doubt, understand exactly what was meant by floro, mono, dacron and braid. We are using a common symbol set, communication is occuring, perhaps far more relevant communication than differentiating between the TYPES of monofilament.
Abrasion is the exact same thing. The word abrasion, in the parlance addressed above, means something like "less likely to let you get rocked by a YT." To be clear, we have ZERO SCIENTIFIC DATA backing that up, and we are happy about that. Us using line with higher abrasion resistance increases our individual confidence in our particular equipment; and at the end of the day, that is WAY more important to fishing success than anything you are going to learn in a peer reviewed journal.
To be clear, I read peer reviewed journals for entertainment, but not about fishing. This is about eating and having fun.
The Man
Guys elsewhere are chiming in about the improved abrasion resistance of mono over floro. My floro leaders get chaffed within the first half hour. So, the other day, I tried a mono leader for the first time in ages. Nope, I could feel the stretch and loss of sensitivity. Back to floro.
Sigh....
In some cases using imprecise language matters, in some cases it doesn't. It is actually important in this case that the nylon and fluoro are both monofilaments. And in this case it is not rocket surgery-white coat stuff.
Abrasion resistance: For monofilaments, abrasion resistance is a function of diameter and hardness - more is better for both. So if you want to determine abrasion resistance, this should be the guide, not whether it is fluoro or nylon. Note that for nylon hardness is reduced a bit as moisture content increases, so you have to make sure that the nylon has been soaked for about 10 minutes or so to get a fair comparison.
Not too difficult to find diameter. There are standard methods for measuring the hardness. Line makers don't seem to want to tell us what the hardness is. Mebbe they don't want us to make informed decisions that get in the way of profit margin or market share?
Everybody gets to enjoy their fishing however they want. Believing stuff that you want to believe, whether it is lucky hats, unlucky bananas, or fishing line with "magical" properties is part of the fun for some folk. Don't want to rain on anyone's parade.
-J
Dave - I have been known to drink the manufacturer Kool-Aid. A Little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing...
Love nylon mono. Grew up with it. Still use the daylights out of my Ande and Stren. But (for better or worse) I have always considered mono line to indeed be one single filament, and to be homogenous - consistent in its composition throughout the cross section. I might be naive here. And if it gets nicked or frayed (or "abraided" :D) that you are now living on borrowed time, since you have now created a flaw in the cross section.
With the modern flouro blends, I have been led to believe (see my reference to Kool-Aid above) that the flouro manufacturers (Okay, I am going to drop all pretense and say THE flouro manufacturer...this from a Fred Hall visit) that this single extruded filament can be made with varying properties across the cross section of the line. For example the outer circumference can be of a harder, less forgiving (or knot friendly) character while the center core can have slightly different properties, all extruded into one single filament. Or likewise something that is softer, limper, and more knot friendly. Again, this may be the Kool Aid talking. In my mind "limp with great knot strength" says a "softer" outer layer and something that is more "abrasion resistant" will have something where the outer layer may be harder and have a higher durometer than say the center of the filament. - john
Yeah, but...
Monofilament means a single filament. It does not mean that it is a single raw material, or that the filament is not coated. The line makers are trying to make a distinction that does not exist between fluoro and "mono" because a more accurate description does not help justify the pricing.
They make both nylon and fluoro in the hard shell/soft core style, often incorrectly marketed as copolymer. Back in my trolling days, I really liked the Jinkai nylon leader because it had a hard coating to make durable, but was still knotable in high tests, so no crimps needed.
A polymer is a repeating chain of the same molecule, over and over. A copolymer is the same deal, but has two or more different molecules repeating in the chain.
These coated lines may be made from copolymers, but are not copolymers by virtue of different materials used for the core vs the coating. But it makes for better marketing to call them copolymers instead of coated.
Softness and elasticity both contribute to ease of knotting. Nylon and fluoro have overlapping ranges for these properties, so it depends on which two lines you are comparing . But fluoro is not as elastic at lower loads, generally making it harder to knot compared to nylon of the same hardness.
I remember reading somewhere that fluoro is more likely to fracture. Nylon is definitely more likely to creep (permanently deforming to a smaller diameter from being stretched in a knot) , so it is not clear to me which material will tend to hold up longer in knots. I have seen that fluoro loop knots break at the loop (not the knot) from the shock of repeated casting (a heavy saltwater fly) much sooner than nylon.
Sensitivity is a more complicated subject. We are concerned with mechanical motion ( fish pulls on one end of the line) and vibration (lure bounces off a rock or tapped by a fish). When dealing with short sections like leaders, there probably is no real difference, as the main line will be be the controlling factor. With casting lures shorter distances in calm/shallow water, elasticity is probably the deal breaker (more elasticity = less sensitivity). Once longer distances, depth and/or current come into play, line diameter matters more, especially for vibration, as friction along and across the line dampens the response.
For the type of fishing that Steve is doing, less stretch is going to be more sensitive, but a low stretch nylon might be an alternative to fluoro.
If I am vertical jigging, I care about mainline diameter, mainline diameter and mainline diameter, and then maybe a tiny bit about mainline stretch. The most sensitive setup is going to be the thinnest braid all the way to the lure. If I want a a leader, shorter is better. Long large diameter fluoro or nylon monofilament leaders can mess with drop action if the jig is light enough.
Or something like that.
-J