I started this project over a year ago. Things got busy and it went on the back burner. I'd really hate to tell you how many projects end up like that! (lol)
Besides, Adam F's stars are very nice and my go too whether it be my reels or a customers. He has a great selection of sizes and styles, nicely made, and affordable, plus his cutting method is more cost effective then what I can do here in the shop, and its definitely the best way to go.
Unfortunately no CNC equipment on this end and not even a DRO for the mill, so everything gets done Old School. It takes lots longer but it eventually gets done!
Popped the hole pattern in the blank and made a quickie fixture with a locating pin to index it accurately. One tab is cut straight and the other on an angle to give the Star a bit of a backward or reverse look. Also, decided to put a radius on the angled side only, ... nothing special, just different and adding a little personal touch. Its 316L stainless by the way as its one of the better for saltwater use.
Its a whisker over 3" as this was the material I had lying around. I'll tap the hole at the very end as this gives me some flexibility as to what reel It will go on when I'm ready. Most likely a 113H.
Just though I'd see what you think?
Actually, Adams wide top star was the inspiration that made me finish this up. When I saw his, I knew what my next project would be and I needed the use of the fixture. As time allows, the plan is to make a wide top at least 3" in dia. and it will be out of aluminum to keep the weight down. To address the potential of stripping out the threaded area, it will be inserted with Stainless steel.
I have no intentions of producing these, ... its just something I want to try.
OK, all, its back to work as I have to finish Mike's knob.
All have a great afternoon, .. Lou
Wow, good work, and Stainless Too? Thats a challenge I won,t try. ;) Sometimes I wish I had that odd ball Tap. You did finish it nicely as now you have waited so long to get it this far! As an estimate how much time do you have in it? I think its priceless!!~?
Now that there are more and more great aftermarket parts for reels I think we will see less and less do it youself projects? And kudos to your post for giving us inspiration and another take on back burner projects. Thanks for sharing! :-*
Very nice, and unique looking, Lou.
Lou I have made a few things in my time but you always excel - just keep on doing it my friend :)
Nice work Lou, your finishing is always top class.
Mike
Very nice work Lou........but I think you should change title of this thread to: "A Star is Born"..... In your case it is always applicable ;) ;)
Ted
Lou, how will the SS threaded insert be installed? Heli-coil maybe? ??? Rudy
Ya Lou , :) I,m also interested in your sst threads in an alum star? I had thought of doing this to get the paddles on a star. Tell us more pleeze???? ???
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p660/gst6814/IMG_5678_zpsiqps9p47.gif) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/gst6814/media/IMG_5678_zpsiqps9p47.gif.html)
He cut the star from 316 stainless, not aluminum.
Beautiful work, Lou. Not that Id expect anything less from you. I really enjoy seeing how things were done in the days before CNC controls.
Im not aware of any practical way to use thread inserts in this thickness. You typically need the depth to be at lease the same as the diameter.
Wow Lou. That is amazing. I hope you get out of the basement to see the light of day once in a while
Tiburon now lists aluminum stars with SS inserts for sale. So it can be done. I was asking about his next project that he said would be an aluminum star with a SS insert to save weight.
A work of art. You have a lot of patience to cut it out of stainless Lou. I would rather have solid stainless and accept the weight. It will feel good, last forever and wouldn't make much difference in the overall weight of the rig.
-steve
Beautiful star Lou, definitely one of the best I've seen. The polishing job is out of this world, I could see a lot of heart went into that star.
Thanks for sharing your excellent work with us and keep on visualizing, we would love to see what else you come up with.
Best,
Sal
Thank you all for your comments and kind words.
I have dozens of projects in the works and I pick away at all of them when I can. Its a good diversion and well needed at times to get break from the knobs.
For Rudy and Gary, .... unfortunately no commercial HeliCoil insert that I know of is available for these somewhat odd threads and as Adam had stated, at least once the thread dia. is needed for the best holding power.
An insert is required. If you can picture a counterbored hole in the star with the larger dia. being on the backside. A wafer style, stepped, threaded insert of SS is machined to match. 4 small flat head screws will secure it and will be countersunk from the backside. Although the threaded holes will be visible from the front, they will be covered when the handle arm is installed.
It will be very strong and if necessary, I have access to a 40ton press to do some additional staking of the screws. Before assembly, a liberal coat of Bearing grade or Slip fit high strength Loctite would be applied liberally. This is some expensive and very serious stuff. Not only will this help hold, it will create a surface barrier between the two dissimilar metals.
It will be time consuming but for a handful of pieces, its doable. The other option is as Steve mentioned, make the whole unit out of SS!
Thanks again and all have a great day, .. Lou
Thanks Lou , you are kinda thinking 🤔 along the same lines as i was , of mating the sat threaded inner piece to a larger and somewhat thicker aluminum star to get the paddle 🌟 star somehow.
The alum would've been quite easy to work with in comparison with the sst. I was thinking of using a thicker ps of plate to get the star wider paddles and tapering it in to about the factory star thickness and accept a brass thread part of a factory star. But my tools are limited. It never happened, butt mating the two pieces is my question . I could do pins into countersunk holes and peen into rivets..?
Butt the project is not going to get done if it doesn't get out of the design stage,
Thanks for your idea 💡 👋
Gary, I thought about using rivets, but, going to small flat head screws actually gives you the best of both worlds. I was planning to peen them at the very end if necessary as an added precaution.
It would be super strong!
...........Lou
Apparently you have a tap for the 113h gearsleeve ? I do remember they are sort of an oddball size as general machine taps go. I never took the time to research the correct size and pitch butt I do remember some of the members have described what it is. Anyone thant wants to chime in its ok with me on this subject. I was thinking of roughing out a couple of stars with somewhat undersize pilot holes and then sending them to someone to tap the 113h gearsleeve threads for me for a service fee. That might be the best way to do my project.
I would like to make one star for the 114h narrow I,m fond of as well. Anybody know what those gearsleeve threads are?
I was thinking of using 3/16 or 1/4 inch alum alloy 5086 as Ive got scraps of it to play with. Just another idea? ???
1/2"-32 tpi for the 113H
114H and up all use buttress threads, and there are no commercially available taps in those sizes. Custom taps run well upwards of $100 each.
Quote from: gstours on November 13, 2017, 04:19:30 AM
Apparently you have a tap for the 113h gearsleeve ?
All guys that do a lot of reel service should have taps for the stars, the ones that you're able to get.
I have taps for Jigmaster size and 113h size, I go over every star when servicing my reels, even the fresh ss stars.
I could really feel the difference afterwards.
I've also retapped the coarse thread star on a jigmaster to fine thread with no issues.
Sal
Is there an ultra fine tap and die standard? Something finer then UNF. Finer than 1/2"-20 or 1/4"-28. You see finer threads on all sort of things besides reels. Are they all custom sizes?
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on November 13, 2017, 06:43:52 AM
Is there an ultra fine tap and die standard? Something finer then UNF. Finer than 1/2"-20 or 1/4"-28. You see finer threads on all sort of things besides reels. Are they all custom sizes?
-steve
Steve, I don't know a lot about them but there is UNEF or NEF (EF stands for Engineering Fine I think) 1/2"-28, 1/4"-32 and 5/16"-32 and so on. The 1/2"-28 is used for some of the bearing cups. I'm not sure what standard the 8-40 penn uses are though - I think I've seen it called UNS ( S for special?)
Mike
Quote from: oc1 on November 13, 2017, 06:43:52 AM
Is there an ultra fine tap and die standard? Something finer then UNF.
Yes, there is UNEF, EF standing for Extra Fine. And similar in metric pitches-- fine, finer, really fine, crazy fine. They are not fine enough in this case though. Sal and Three Se7ens already clarified the needed spec.
Making your own taps is not at all impossible; it just takes a bit more resources than what most folks have at their disposal.
Lou, job well done! I like the clever indexing jig. Great polishing too. You have a very interesting professional background. Thank you so much for the very kind words earlier. I'm sure you could figure out how to thread this star on the lathe. Like invent a little holding thing, set the lathe up for 32 tpi and use any 32 tpi tap as a form tool. If you wanted to.
Edit & Addendum: mhc types faster than i do...
Quality people, quality workmanship, quality banter!
Although it would be next to useless for cutting "new" threads in stainless..or even treated steel, I have made many "taps" for "re threading", or threading *soft* materials , by grinding 'relief slots" in a grade 8 steel bolt (if I get out to my shop, later, I'll see if I can hunt one up, and post a pic). One edge of the slot is ground at 90 degrees(or a bit less) to the axis of the bolt (that's the 'cutting edge'), and the other "edge" has a much shallower angle. If you look at a "real" tap.....just grind the bolt , the same way. Then you can taper the bolt end, slightly, to make *starting* easier. Grade 8, or even grade 5, bolts CAN be hardened, too, if desired .
Thanks again for the info about these threads to all who chimes in. :) I think that the grade 8 bolt would be an alternative Poor Mans tap if aluminum was used in this example. Thanks for the specifics with the heattreating idea as well. After cutting the tap chip flutes and shaping the taper should a person heat to cherry red and oil quench? I could check harness with a file before and after the first quench?
Any recommendations might be helpful to others trying to learn this stuff as well? As Aluminum might not be the best for the threads I might find some alloy better than the AL 5086? I wish I had a lathe and small milling machine. And a Floatplane. and and! ???
Thank you Mike and Robert. 1/4"-32 will be perfect. I don't know why I couldn't find out about UNEF through google searches. You machinists must have a secret club.
-steve
Yes, if you heat to a "cherry" red, then quench....that will harden the material. Without "tempering...it's liable to be REAL hard, and brittle, but probably OK for soft materials. The real trick is to find a bolt with the TPI that you need....unless you have a lathe, and can "make one". You can make dies, in basically the same way....filing "reliefs" in the threads (or, using a "castle nut").
I found out a little about "buttress threads " ??? as the Penn 114h and maybe the larger senator reels are using , gearsleeve and star are apparently made from this thread to help with the one directional load. Makes sense butt I never knew. Now you do too! ;)
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p660/gst6814/ButtressThreadForm_zpsvyvlkuld.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/gst6814/media/ButtressThreadForm_zpsvyvlkuld.jpg.html)
Thank you for that Gary.
How hard would a steel nut and bolt have to be to make a tap and die for brass? I don't suppose stainless would work.
-steve
I never tried with stainless....but it's really sort of "gummy", so I doubt it would work well, as a "cutting tool". Any that I have made from grade 8 bolts were fine for "rethreading", just as they are. Both the grade 5, and the grade 8 are 'heat treated" (as well as being better steel than the "soft" grade 2) The threads that I "cut' (virgin threads) were in aluminum, and they cut easily, but, as the "real" taps and dies have slightly "oversize' threads (to allow for clearance) the end product produces 'tight threads". In googling some "odd-ball" thread sizes, there are quite a few "China producers" who have some really off the wall sizes...prices are cheap.....but I suppose the 'product"is cheap, too !
Yes, my experience with Chinese Taps, Dies and Drills commonly available off EBay has been disappointing, but would be "OK" for threading aluminium and brass. However, step up to threading stainless, they just aren't up to the task. You get what you pay for. The English, German, American made taps are far superior for harder metals.
x2 What Chris said. Over the last couple of years I have upgraded all of my metal drills, most of my taps and some of the dies to HSSCo. It's far superior to HSS let alone carbon steel. I used to try and tap holes in stainless with carbon steel taps - a complete waste of time :P
Rudy,
Randy picked up a Tiburon SS inserted star for me. It was just as I had figured. A stepped, wafer insert. The only thing I'd do differently would be to add a straight knurl. With the knurl once the insert get pressed into place, its a done deal.
I also use a knurl on my knob shafts as an extra precaution and I haven't had one come apart yet. It'll be a while as I have a ton of work but its comin. What would you guys think of this Old School Star style with a wide top?
.....................Lou
Wide top.? Sketch us a simple design. Not like Mae West, just wide enough. Seems interesting. Thanks 🙏🤦♀️
Gary, the tiburon one is a Newell style. The one I'm planning is going to be more of a paddle/spoon shape. When the mill opens up, and I a get a bit of time, I'll try to take some pics.
Unfortunately at the moment I'm swamped.
Regard's, .. Lou
Thanks for the renewed interest in the paddle style stars. :) I,m going to wait for a bit as well as I was able to find 2 for the Tanks. I would like something like it for the 114h reel. The paddle is more comfortable to me when your cranking and loosening the star in more heavy drag settings, (pseudo extreme) . I saw what you said about doubling the two stars threaded inserts into a wider alum star. Seem very doable for my diy test alum thick star. I,m thinking the star could be possibly 5/16 to 38 inch thick possibly. It would be offset in that the recess would put the star back to the endplate same as factory reels. I might be able to mill this out with my crossfeed vise and end cutters? Alum is kind. I need to draw pictures and post the offset. Will the 2 factory stars side by side be too thick for the gearsleeve stack? Depends on the drag/main gear sandwich I guess? Its goinna be a fun low cost project. Have a great Thanksgiving too! ;)
Anyway I just like the feel of the Sal paddle star as you all can see. ::) "when the skipper butts in"
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p660/gst6814/Then%20the%20skipper%20butts%20in_zpsu4j0s6l2.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/gst6814/media/Then%20the%20skipper%20butts%20in_zpsu4j0s6l2.jpg.html)