I bought this reel after the experts here told me about the super free system. Also, I wanted a smaller reel that does not carry more line than needed for the task at hand. The 70 size is the new 50 size Curado. I have been using Korean-made Lew's Inshore BBI and BB2, an original silver Calcutta 100 before that, and ABU 5000 C before that.
Looking at the featured specifications one by one:
8.2:1 gear ratio
32 inches per turn - (IPT) retrieve
X SHIP - pinion supported on both ends
The IPT is about the same as what I've been using but the spool diameter is smaller than the 100 size reels so they needed a higher gear ratio. It is 8.2:1 versus 7.1:1 for the 100 size Lew's. The reel is ever-so-slightly harder to crank than what I'm used to. This is probably because of the higher gear ratio. The X SHIP system with better pinion support and smaller gear teeth does not compensate for the difference. The Curado 70HG model has 7.2:1 gear ratio and 28 IPT. If I had it to do over again, I would still get the XG model because the higher speed is so useful for the type of fishing.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado1.jpg)
10 lb drag
Cross Carbon Drag
That's nice, but I really only need about three pounds of drag. The upper metal drag washer is concave so only the rim rides on the very narrow carbontex washer. The second carbontex washer below the main gear has more surface area. I think the concave metal drag washer and key helps insure the drag pressure is released when the star is backed off.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado2.jpg)
Super Free System
5 ball bearing + 1 roller bearing
I have been using reels with three bearings supporting the spool; one at each end of the shaft and a third bearing in between the spool and the pinion. The Curado 70 only has two bearings supporting the spool; one at each end of the spool shaft. That suits me fine because that third bearing requires the Hedgehog tool or very careful use of pliers to remove the retaining pin. If frequent bearing flushing is required that pin is removed and reinstalled a lot. It's time consuming and is an accident waiting to happen.
Under the cast control know there are two bearings. An outer bearing that supports the spool shaft and an inner bearing that supports the pinion gear. The first time I looked at this I thought it was going to be big trouble and a possible deal breaker. When the tail plate and spool is removed the outer bearing under the cast control knob is easily accessed by removing a familiar pentagonal wire clip. But, the pinion bearing cannot be removed because there is nothing to grab hold of. To remove the pinion bearing the head plate must be opened and completely disassembled. It was a relief to realize that the pinion bearing does not rotate when casting; at least it shouldn't rotate if everything is straight. The pinion bearing only moves when the pinion is engaged with the spool. When casting the pinion bearing just stabilizes the pinion so it cannot touch the rotating spool shaft. The second photo below shows the position of the two bearings on the pinion and shool shaft with the cast control knob and head plate removed.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado3.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado4.jpg)
Super Stopper anti-reverse (AR bearing)
Whatever. A double dog would have been fine with me
Quickfire II - spool disengaging bar under thumb
The quickfire button is a convenience I would hate to do without. But as far as I can tell, there's nothing new or special about this one. It's difficult to get it out of gear when there is a lot of tension on the line. You need to use your thumb to rock the spool back while pushing the button. My other baitcasters have this problem too, but not quite as bad.
Infinity System - variable centrifugal brake
The centrifugal brake is unusual in that the brake shoes are on the outside of the metal race. The brake shoes are 'L' shaped and pinned or hinged in the center. When the heavy side of the 'L' is pushed outward by centrifugal force, the smaller side of the 'L' is pulled inward contacting the race. The only advantage I can see with this system is that it makes the braking system more compact so the tail plate can be smaller.
There is an external dial on the tail plate that raises or lower the centrifugal brake race. The dial is a bit difficult to turn. The dial combined with brake shoes that can be individually disengaged from inside the tail plate allows for incremental adjustments over a wide range.
No magnets and that suits me fine.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado5.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado6.jpg)
One piece aluminum body construction
I thought it was all composite/plastic and need to go back to look at it again.
S3D spool - balanced thin-wall aluminum spool
Capacty 105 yards of 10 lb mono or 30 lb Power Pro
6.5 ounces - reel weight
I've always wondered why spools are not balanced like an automobile tire, but don't know how much it will matter.
The spool is tiny; both shallow and narrow. Shallow is good because it makes the spool very light and increases casting distance. Narrow is good because the line comes off the spool with minimal rubbing as it moves toward the disengaging levelwind guide to increase casting distance. The line capacity will seem ridiculously small to most of you. I started out using 115 yards of 20 pound braid but had a nice fish cut itself off on a coral head. Then, switched to 100 yards of 30 pound braid. Next time it happens, I'll switch to 80 yards of 40 pound braid. So far, being cut off is a larger danger than having the spool stripped.
The reel weight is about an ounce lighter than what I'm used to, but to tell you the truth I did not notice it. I definitely noticed that the overall size is smaller and it feels much better in the hand.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado7.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado8.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado9.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado10.jpg)
casting distance
This is the important thing to me. The Curado70 is several yards longer than the Lew's Inshore BB1 which, in turn, is several yards longer than the old Calcutta 100 which, in turn, is several yards longer than the even older ABUs. I decided to take the better performance in smaller lure weight rather than more distance. The Curado 70 will throw a jig tied on a 1/4 ounce weight just as far as the BB1 will throw the same jig tied on a 3/8 ounce weight. The 1/8 ounce difference does not sound like much but it makes a huge difference in presentation. The jig will bump over rocks and coral without snagging at a slower retrieve speed. The ultimate goal has been to throw a fully feathered jig tied on a 1/4 ounce tungsten weight 40 yards. I'm not there yet, but it's getting very close. Will need a lighter rod blank too because the one I have now feels like it is not loading fully with a 1/4 ounce jig.
Overall
The Curado 70 feels sort of plastic and cheap. On the inside it looks cheap. The cranking is a little stiff. The brake control dial is a little stiff. Getting it out of gear with a lot of tension on the line is a trick. But, so far and overall, the function and performance have been great. Not only that, this reel has brought good luck. I love this reel. I want to marry this reel. Until death do us part. And this time I mean it. ;)
-steve
Thanks for the tour; I've been curious about these reels. I was going to ask why not a fluoro top-shot to address your cut-off problems, then saw that you're casting 1/4 oz.
Mike
You mentioned " It's difficult to get it out of gear when there is a lot of tension on the line. You need to use your thumb to rock the spool back while pushing the button. " This is common as you mentioned. Just want to say to everyone don't force the thumbar on any of these reels without taking the pressure off the spool. I had one come in where, on a snag, the user forced the thumbar down and blew both ends off the nylon yoke.
Thanks very much at that look at Shimano's new flagship baitcaster.
The "all metal body" is probably the frame and rt. side plate...they stretch the truth there and consider the gear train to be housed in "the body" and the left side just a "side plate". Or some such mental gymnastics :D.
Generally speaking these companies know what they are about. Literally hundreds of thousands of this type of reel is sold yearly from the various makers and where they lighten the reel is a very fine line between performance for all day casting and pinching fractions of pennies off of the cost (to them, little of the savings seems to be passed on :) ).
Hard to say where the dividing line between "planned obsolescence" and "lightweight performance for all day casting" cuts hard and fast. One man's cheap solution is another man's saving of grams on a tired wrist...
To me I am usually amazed at the precision molding required in these little powerhouses...modern marvels of tool and die. ;)
Mike, I use about ten feet of 20 lb SeaGuar and its saved the day many times. Have to leave the knot outside the levelwind guide though. Have not yet tried 40 yards of 12 lb fluoro on top of a braid backing.
John, perhaps its not planned obsolescence but inevitable obsolescence. These things can do stuff that was unimaginable back in the day. They jacked the price up twenty bucks on this generation, but it was worth every penny to me. I have a question for you about wet bearings but do not have time to go into it right now. Will be back later.
-steve
back...
Thanks to El Nino we've had unseasonably calm weather. It's been really nice for paddling and fishing. We should soon transition back to normal spring tradewind weather; light to moderate winds from the east to northeast with passing showers.
When it's calm and glassy everything stays dry, including the reel. With a light wind and light chop the reel is likely to get splashed with seawater. As the wind picks up or when there is a big swell the reel is likely to get drenched. When I screw up it might get dunked. Having the reel get wet is inevitable and unavoidable.
As long as the reel is being used frequently and I'm paying attention corrosion is not really a problem. Plastic doesn't corrode and the metal parts are greased. The problem is having a spool bearing get wet.
Water works it way into the reel sporadically and unpredictably. You never know when a water droplet will come into contact with one of the bearings. But once it happens the casting performance will let you know about it immediately. The weird thing is that after water contacts a bearing the first one or two casts may be the best of the day. It's like the water is a super lubricant for a few moments. But then, performance starts to drop off dramatically and the more you cast the worse it gets. I think what happens is that water is pulled into the bearing by capillary action. Then, as the little balls spin, the oil and water are mixed into a mayonnaise-like emulsion. If you look closely there will be little clumps of goop that bog down the bearing and freespool.
Flushing out a bearing to dissolve the goop is not difficult, but it is time consuming. I put the bearing on a wooden mandrel, submerge it in acetone, and spin it with a drill motor. The acetone can be evaporated off by spinning it in air. Sometimes it has to be done a couple of times to get the bearing to where it will spin like new. There have been times when I missed the tide because I forgot to clean the bearings. There have been times when 30 to 45 minutes was spent flushing bearings, I go fishing for a few hours, and then have to clean them again because they got wet. I'm not going to change how and when I fish so something has to be done to address the wet bearing problem or at least the amount of time spent cleaning them.
The fact that the Curado does not have that third bearing between the spool and the pinion makes things simpler. That middle bearing seems most likely to get wet, although it can happen to any of them. The middle bearing is also the most tedious to clean because of that pin that must be removed and reinstalled. The bearings in the head plate and tail plate are easier to remove. It is so easy that it can be done at the beach or on the water as long as you don't loose the pentagonal wire retaining clip.
I'm going to try a couple of things. One will be to get a ten-pack of bearings (they are 3x10x4 mm) and some spare wire clips. If a bearing get wet, they can be removed in the field and replaced with clean ones. I can't really tell which bearing is wet until it is removed from the side plate so its probably simpler to just change them both out. Before running out of clean bearings, all the wet ones can be flushed at once whenever it is convenient.
I also want to try ceramic bearings. Actually, I have orange seal ceramic spool bearings in the reel now but the weather is so nice that they haven't been wet yet. In another thread John T said something to the effect that there is no place for ceramic bearing in seawater. I'm guessing the rational is that salt crystals will eat up the ceramic balls. Is this correct John? Or, is there something else that I don't know about? These ceramic bearings are being run dry and I hope that when they get wet salt crystals will not form during the remainder of the days outing. I'm also hoping that since there is no oil, there will be no emulsion and they will be easier to clean. But, I'm also worried about that orange rubber(?) seal. Will acetone dissolve the seal? Should they be cleaned with isopropyl or plain water instead? Will the orange seals do anything to help keep water out? Maybe I should have bought ceramic bearings with metal seals instead
Dry ceramic bearing are said to be noisy, but may cast a little better. I don't know why I was surprised to find that the noise sounds just like little ceramic balls running around in a race, but I was and it does. Reminds me of some sort of plastic toy. You hear them when casting and you hear them when retrieving. In the reviews and comments, the noise is understated, but so is the performance. These things definitely make a difference; at least a couple of yards. Despite the sound, I'm very pleased with them so far.
Have you considered replacing the bearings with bronze bushings? The ABU 7000s (and maybe 5000 & 6000) used 3x10x4 bushings and seem to cast as well the 7000c3 with bearings.
Mike
That would be interesting to try Mike. I might even have some old ABU bushings that were swapped out for bearings. But, the only reason bushings worked with the ABUs was because friction from the synchronized levelwind overwhelmed everything else. After a CT conversion bearings would perform better than bushings.
-steve
I've learned a few things about wet bearings, but nothing that is not obvious or intuitive.
First, I learned that the inside of the reel is going to get wet regardless of whether or not the outside of the reel is splashed. We had a very calm period and I watched the reel closely to make sure it was never splashed but the inside got wet anyway. When opened, there were beads of between the spool and the inner side plate, beads of water in the gear box and even water inside the cast control knob. There is an O-ring on the outside of the cast control knob so water must have come from inside the gear box and gone through or around the spool bearing and the outer pinion bearing. It get into the gear box, water would have had to travel from under the spool through or around the inner pinion bearing too. To get under the spool water must enter around the outer edge of the spool. My guess is that water is flung off the wet line and through the gap between spool and frame when casting. I switched from slightly worn (almost fuzzy) 30# braid to new 20# braid but it did not help.
I learned that the free spin time of bearings is correlated with the free spool time of the reel and the casting distance. I spent a lot of time on this. It's obvious but important. If bearings are put on a wood mandrel (pencil, bamboo skewer, chop stick, etc) and the outer race is spun (flicked with a finger), the longer the bearing spins the longer it will cast in the field. If one bearing has double the free spin time of another bearing, the difference in casting distance will be five to ten percent. Anything that decreases free spin time decreases casting performance. Lubricants that dramatically decrease free spin time include TSI-321, Reel X, Hot Sauce, LPS-1, WD-40, water, isopropyl, Yama Lube, Cals grease. I haven't found any lubrication that does not decrease free spin time.
I learned that there is no such thing as a sealed ball bearing; only shielded ball bearings. The orange rubber "seals" are tucked under a lip on the outer race, but you can see light between the rubber and the inner race. If the rubber was sealed to the inner race too then the bearing could not spin. Metal shields are not sealed to either the inner or outer race. If a droplet of water touches the seal/shield it will likely be drawn into the bearing by capillary action. Once inside the bearing, the seal/shield may actually prevent the moving parts (balls, retainer, inner race) from slinging the water back out. Open bearings without seals/shields do not get wet any sooner.
I learned that a dry (not lubricated) bearing is not adversely affected by water as much as a lubricated bearing. This is because that oil/water emulsion gunk is not formed. Oil/water emulsion slows down the bearing much more than either oil or water alone. When a non-lubricated bearing gets wet performance returns almost to normal as it slings the water away. But, if saltwater is allowed to dry and salt crystals form inside the bearing it will be permanently ruined just a few casts. This only happened once so far and it was with a ceramic hybrid bearing. I am not yet sure if a bearing with stainless balls will be permanently ruined under these conditions too. Ceramic balls are harder then steel, but they may be more susceptible to pitting or fracture than steel.
I learned the ABEC-7 bearings are somewhat more likely to perform well than ABEC-5 bearings. The ABEC rating system specifies tolerance limits in manufacture. However, the ABEC rating is not necessarily related to the free spin time. There is a lot of variation in free spin time in bearings with the same ABEC rating. There is a lot of variation in the same model bearings from the same manufacturer and same supplier. There is less variation in ABEC-7 bearing than ABEC-5 bearings, but the best ABEC-5 bearing from a ten-pack may be better then the worst ABEC-7 bearing from a ten pack. There are businesses that grade bearings based on free spin time. The best ones are sold at a higher price. They don't say what happens to the bearings that are not so good. Price may be more closely related to free spin time than anything else. In my very limited experience, I've received better bearing when buying two than when buying ten of the same product. It may be coincidence, it may be a racket; I don't know. The uncertainty about what you are going to receive from a supplier is frustrating. On the other hand, when you spend five to ten bucks on a bearing you can't really expect NASA space ship precision.
So far, dry orange shield ceramic hybrid bearings are the best thing I've tried. I only ruined one of them in twenty to thirty hours of casting. But, I wasted a lot of money trying to find bearings that cost less but work as well.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on May 01, 2016, 10:47:51 AM
I've learned a few things about wet bearings, but nothing that is not obvious or intuitive.
First, I learned that the inside of the reel is going to get wet regardless of whether or not the outside of the reel is splashed. We had a very calm period and I watched the reel closely to make sure it was never splashed but the inside got wet anyway. When opened, there were beads of between the spool and the inner side plate, beads of water in the gear box and even water inside the cast control knob. There is an O-ring on the outside of the cast control knob so water must have come from inside the gear box and gone through or around the spool bearing and the outer pinion bearing. It get into the gear box, water would have had to travel from under the spool through or around the inner pinion bearing too. To get under the spool water must enter around the outer edge of the spool. My guess is that water is flung off the wet line and through the gap between spool and frame when casting. I switched from slightly worn (almost fuzzy) 30# braid to new 20# braid but it did not help.
I learned that the free spin time of bearings is correlated with the free spool time of the reel and the casting distance. I spent a lot of time on this. It's obvious but important. If bearings are put on a wood mandrel (pencil, bamboo skewer, chop stick, etc) and the outer race is spun (flicked with a finger), the longer the bearing spins the longer it will cast in the field. If one bearing has double the free spin time of another bearing, the difference in casting distance will be five to ten percent. Anything that decreases free spin time decreases casting performance. Lubricants that dramatically decrease free spin time include TSI-321, Reel X, Hot Sauce, LPS-1, WD-40, water, isopropyl, Yama Lube, Cals grease. I haven't found any lubrication that does not decrease free spin time.
I learned that there is no such thing as a sealed ball bearing; only shielded ball bearings. The orange rubber "seals" are tucked under a lip on the outer race, but you can see light between the rubber and the inner race. If the rubber was sealed to the inner race too then the bearing could not spin. Metal shields are not sealed to either the inner or outer race. If a droplet of water touches the seal/shield it will likely be drawn into the bearing by capillary action. Once inside the bearing, the seal/shield may actually prevent the moving parts (balls, retainer, inner race) from slinging the water back out. Open bearings without seals/shields do not get wet any sooner.
I learned that a dry (not lubricated) bearing is not adversely affected by water as much as a lubricated bearing. This is because that oil/water emulsion gunk is not formed. Oil/water emulsion slows down the bearing much more than either oil or water alone. When a non-lubricated bearing gets wet performance returns almost to normal as it slings the water away. But, if saltwater is allowed to dry and salt crystals form inside the bearing it will be permanently ruined just a few casts. This only happened once so far and it was with a ceramic hybrid bearing. I am not yet sure if a bearing with stainless balls will be permanently ruined under these conditions too. Ceramic balls are harder then steel, but they may be more susceptible to pitting or fracture than steel.
I learned the ABEC-7 bearings are somewhat more likely to perform well than ABEC-5 bearings. The ABEC rating system specifies tolerance limits in manufacture. However, the ABEC rating is not necessarily related to the free spin time. There is a lot of variation in free spin time in bearings with the same ABEC rating. There is a lot of variation in the same model bearings from the same manufacturer and same supplier. There is less variation in ABEC-7 bearing than ABEC-5 bearings, but the best ABEC-5 bearing from a ten-pack may be better then the worst ABEC-7 bearing from a ten pack. There are businesses that grade bearings based on free spin time. The best ones are sold at a higher price. They don't say what happens to the bearings that are not so good. Price may be more closely related to free spin time than anything else. In my very limited experience, I've received better bearing when buying two than when buying ten of the same product. It may be coincidence, it may be a racket; I don't know. The uncertainty about what you are going to receive from a supplier is frustrating. On the other hand, when you spend five to ten bucks on a bearing you can't really expect NASA space ship precision.
So far, dry orange shield ceramic hybrid bearings are the best thing I've tried. I only ruined one of them in twenty to thirty hours of casting. But, I wasted a lot of money trying to find bearings that cost less but work as well.
-steve
Thanks for that Steve, let me fill in some info I've picked up over the years.
1. Ceramic bearings (dry) are very fast but their cages can and will rust. This is one of the dilemmas with their use in saltwater. Lube them to protect them and any advantage is lost.
2. Ceramic balls are noted for their lack of resistance to crushing forces, so they hold up poorly to grit (ie salt or sand crystals) or heavy loads.
3. A bearing may be slower with a water/oil mix once it gets wet, but it will hold up longer and (particularly with greased bearings) last until you can get in there and clean them.
4. ABEC 7 vs 5...I would never hesitate to urge someone to experiment with increases in performance, but again the net returns can be small unless casting very light baits, in my experience. Then again, I am casting straight braid and generally need all the casting brakes I can get :D and so very, very fast bearings are of limited utility for me. :)
Hi John,
Thank you for the heads up about the cages rusting. From what I can tell, the cages or retainers are the cause of most problems in new bearings too. All the parts can be made with the highest precision, but the cages/retainers are such flimsy little things that if they are not pressed into place and sit just right they will rub the balls and cause them to bind.
Has anyone here ever tried the full ceramic bearings? They're really pricy but may avoid some of the cage/retainer problems.
I've been fishing with jigs tied on 1/4 and 3/8 ounce tungsten weights and need two of the four centrifugal brake shoes clicked on when using dry bearings. Those few extra yards the dry bearings provide are very much appreciated though and it may be possible to drop down to 1/8 ounce.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on May 01, 2016, 08:53:34 PM
Hi John,
Thank you for the heads up about the cages rusting. From what I can tell, the cages or retainers are the cause of most problems in new bearings too. All the parts can be made with the highest precision, but the cages/retainers are such flimsy little things that if they are not pressed into place and sit just right they will rub the balls and cause them to bind.
Has anyone here ever tried the full ceramic bearings? They're really pricy but may avoid some of the cage/retainer problems.
I've been fishing with jigs tied on 1/4 and 3/8 ounce tungsten weights and need two of the four centrifugal brake shoes clicked on when using dry bearings. Those few extra yards the dry bearings provide are very much appreciated though and it may be possible to drop down to 1/8 ounce.
-steve
Yes, and certainly for a Curado 70XG casting such light jigs is right up it's alley. I have never tried full ceramic bearings. I would be worried about their strength vs cost.
best
Don't tell my wife and kids, but I bought two fully ceramic bearings. They're a little puzzling though. The free spin time of a bearing on a mandrel is only about eight seconds. But, they are very light weight; so light that there may not be enough mass/weight in the outer race and cage to keep them spinning. I did not check free spool time on the reel and it may be similar.
As noted, when the reel was dialed in with the ceramic hybrid bearings I ended up with two of the four centrifugal brakes clicked on. The dial that raises and lowers the centrifugal brake race (increasing and decreasing the pressure that each brake shoe can exert) was set at 2 (the range is 0 to 6). The cast control knob is not putting any pressure on the spool. With any less breaking, the reel would start to backlash early in the cast. Putting more force (muscle) into the cast would also yield a backlash early in the cast. The maximum casting distance was just shy of 40 yards using a sparse jig tied on a 1/4 ounce weight.
The fully ceramic bearings cast fine at these same settings and gave the same distance with the same jig. However, when I started changing the settings it was possible to click off one of the centrifugal brake shoes (now using only one of the four) with the dial set at 4. I could also put more force/muscle into the cast without backlash. The distance increased a little and is now just over 40 yards.
I'm don't know what to think about this... other than I'm happy. The dogma about fully ceramic bearings is that they are light weight so they can spin faster, and they do not corrode. Since I was having to slow down the reel with the brakes, I did not think it would be possible for a faster bearing to make a difference in distance. Also, I thought that a faster bearing would require more braking resistance, but I'm now using less braking. It doesn't make sense. The only think I can think of is that the fully ceramic bearings have a lower start-up speed early in the cast, but the speed does not diminish as much later in the cast, so you end up with a tad more distance.
-steve
Oh, and one more thing... Fully ceramic bearings are even more noisy than the orange seal ceramic hybrid bearings.
I've been fishing the Curado 70 on an 11 foot St. Croix 3S110ML2 blank rated for 1/16 to 3/8 ounce. I tried using it to cast a jig tied on a 1/8 ounce weight. The hook and dubbing add about 1/20 ounce and the total weight is 0.17 ounce (= 4.8 gram). The St Croix failed miserably, would not load, and only cast about 13 yards.
So, I got an inexpensive 9 foot, 2 weight fly rod blank (F902-2-MHX) and wrapped it for spinning and baitcasting. It has BYAG spinning guides to the choke point and then KWAG running guides. It stripper and choke are set-up for a Spinfisher 716Z. The 716Z has 20# PowerPro with FG knot to 10 feet of 25# fluorocarbon cast through the guides.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/MHX%20716Z.jpg)
The spinning reel on the fly rod could cast the smaller jig 24 yards. Still less than I had hoped for. I swapped the 716Z for the Curado 70 with the same rod, line, leader and jig. The Curado cast exactly the same distance; 24 yards. It worked best with two of the four centrifugal brakes engaged and 5 on the Infinity System dial
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/MHX%2070XG.jpg)
It appears that the rod, line, and leader are the limiting factors and both the Spinfisher 716Z and Curado 70 are probably capable of more. I can try a smaller and slicker line, but have run out of ideas for a better rod blank to cast light jigs.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on May 23, 2016, 08:26:49 AM
It appears that the rod, line, and leader are the limiting factors and both the Spinfisher 716Z and Curado 70 are probably capable of more. I can try a smaller and slicker line, but have run out of ideas for a better rod blank to cast light jigs.
-steve
I agree. 25lb. flouro leader to 20lb. braid is quite heavy stuff to be pulled by a 1/8 oz. jig--even with the FG connection.
You have the option of running a short leader with the knot outside the guides, but that may not be feasible where you fish.
The weight of those KWAG's is also slowing down the tip section a bit; Forhan-wrapped KTAG's or BLAG's would probably retain more of the blank's original crispness.
As you likely already know, true Fast and Extra-Fast action fly blanks make great ultralight spinners, but they can be hard to find. Another point I've noticed about building a fly-blank spinner, is that the conversion from wt. to oz. is usually off the lighter you go. i.e. A 2/3 wt. is technically the correct ball-park range to start for throwing 1/8 oz. (using the weight-divided-by-16 formula), but the actual power is lighter than what you would normally expect for a rod that will throw 1/8 oz.
In these cases it may help to bump up the weight from a 2 to a 4, or even 5. The examples pictured below are built on St. Croix 5 weights (model number escapes me at the moment), but they throw 1/8-1/4oz. quite a ways--although I'm using only 10-15 lb. braid, 6-10lb. yozuri flouro leader, and Shimano 500/750/1000 sized spinners.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/cabelas%20pt.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/cabelas%20pt.jpg.html)
As a side note, it's interesting you managed 24 yds. for both reels--on a dual-rung setup.
Quote from: oc1 on May 23, 2016, 08:26:49 AM
The spinning reel on the fly rod could cast the smaller jig 24 yards. Still less than I had hoped for.
It appears that the rod, line, and leader are the limiting factors and both the Spinfisher 716Z and Curado 70 are probably capable of more. I can try a smaller and slicker line, but have run out of ideas for a better rod blank to cast light jigs.
-steve
I think the "limiting factor" of your spinning combo is the reel. Ancient design not designed for the type of line you're using. Never known as a long distance caster. I've had good luck using fly rod blanks for both spinning and ultra light casting rigs but I don't go below 5 weight. The classic Daiwa SS or modern Daiwa spinning reels spool design would increase your light lure distance performance.
Thank you very much Chad. I did not know the thing about dividing by 16 and was just guessing that lighter would be better. Should have asked first because now there is a dilemma about whether or not to spend more money on another blank.
The guide placement may have compromised the spinner. The stripper is closer to the reel than is normal for a spinner because there is so much bend in the butt that the line would rub on the blank when it is turned over for baitcasting, even with the extra height. The stripper is about half the diameter of the spool but I don't know if that rule of thumb is valid when the spacing is only 24 inches.
I originally wrapped this rod with eight BYAG to reduce weight but they tangled terribly if there was the slightest twitch with loose line. So, I started over using two BYAG and eight KWAG. I used to use KTAGs on everything but was plagued by wind knots and KWAGs resolved a lot of that. The double foot lets the line slide off the guide frame but it is definitely heavier and stiffer.
Wind knots are a real nuisance in a one-man outrigger canoe. You have to use a long rod so it can get around the bow and stern when a fish is circling the boat. Long whippy rods are prone to wind knots but there is no way to put your hands on the tip to untangle without taking the rod apart at the ferrule. If you're snagged on the bottom and being pushed by the wind when the guides tangle it can get intense.
I should have mentioned that the 11 foot steelhead blank will throw a 1/4 ounce jig much farther than the 9 foot fly blank. I didn't measure it but the difference is more than five yards. I suspect the difference has more to do with rod action and/or rod power than rod length, but really don't know. It's just that my 11 foot rod will not load with less than 1/4 ounce, even though St.Croix rates it 1/16 to 3/8 ounce lure.
0119, thank you very much for the advice about spinning reels. The only spinning reels left around here are 716Z, 712Z and green 710. Spinners give me the carpal tunnel thing in my wrist so I seldom use them now. Baitcasting is much more comfortable but I don't want to sacrifice any distance either.
This whole thing needs a lot more tweeking. The 1/8 ounce jig makes a really nice presentation and is less likely to become snagged when bumping it over coral rubble and rocks. But, I can't cover much territory with a 24 yard cast. The regression of jig weight plotted against casting distance for 3/4, 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4 ounce led me to believe that 1/8 ounce should give about 30 yards.
-steve
I'm so stupid. Forget what I said about jig weight plotted against casting distance.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/distance1.jpg)
I had distance measurements for 3/4, 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4 ounce jigs (the red dots on the plot) and they made a rough line that looked like 1/8 ounce would fall at or above 30 yards. There is some of slop in the data points because each point was with a different rod.
Then I realized that when the weight is zero, the casting distance must also be zero. When the zero intersect is included as a data point, the line becomes a curve. Its exponential instead of linear. Having a 1/8 ounce jig cast 24 yards did not fit the straight line, but it does fit the curve. Maybe that's all I'm going to get.
-steve
Steve,
On the 716-Z have you considered swapping out the 20lb. Power Pro for 14lb. Berkley Fireline? (similar breaking strength)
I've noted Fireline to be more forgiving than braid when it comes to line-lay and wind knots on the older reels.
You could also purchase a Shimano Sienna 1000-FD (front-drag) for the same coin you'd spend on a 300 yd. spool of Fireline.
Yes, the Sienna 1000-FD is a budget reel--but durable--and works great with braid; its "propulsion" spool lip design also aids in distance.
Either one of those changes would likely let you eke out a few more yards--without having to buy a new blank etc.
Just some thoughts.
Chad
Quote from: oc1 on May 23, 2016, 09:10:26 PM
The guide placement may have compromised the spinner. The stripper is closer to the reel than is normal for a spinner because there is so much bend in the butt that the line would rub on the blank when it is turned over for baitcasting, even with the extra height. The stripper is about half the diameter of the spool but I don't know if that rule of thumb is valid when the spacing is only 24 inches.
Sounds like you are using an NGC layout for your reduction guides; having the stripper closer to the reel than what the layout would indicate does "choke" the line a bit as it comes off the spool, but more so with mono than with braid. Another option for these types of light fly-rods paired with spinners and braid is to use Match-style guides. Match frames are so much higher than even BYAG's, one can actually drop down a ring size without sacrificing distance.
What really stands out for me is the fact you've mentioned the blank to bend excessively into the butt section. Such feature is a common trait of fly-blanks that are rated "fast" action--but only for the given length of fly line necessary to load and cast them. Any more load than that and the flex starts transitioning parabolically downwards. This is why you can have identically-rated blanks from different manufacturers, yet one will load beautifully with a certain length of fly line, while the other will start to feel flimsy and over-powered. True fast-action fly blanks will limit the amount of bend going into the butt section as the load increases.
Quote from: oc1 on May 23, 2016, 09:10:26 PM
Wind knots are a real nuisance in a one-man outrigger canoe. You have to use a long rod so it can get around the bow and stern when a fish is circling the boat. Long whippy rods are prone to wind knots but there is no way to put your hands on the tip to untangle without taking the rod apart at the ferrule. If you're snagged on the bottom and being pushed by the wind when the guides tangle it can get intense.
Thanks for sharing this info on the manner you're fishing--it does sound challenging!
Quote from: oc1 on May 23, 2016, 09:10:26 PM
I should have mentioned that the 11 foot steelhead blank will throw a 1/4 ounce jig much farther than the 9 foot fly blank. I didn't measure it but the difference is more than five yards. I suspect the difference has more to do with rod action and/or rod power than rod length, but really don't know. It's just that my 11 foot rod will not load with less than 1/4 ounce, even though St.Croix rates it 1/16 to 3/8 ounce lure.
Yes. All things being equal--a fast-action rod with a crisp, responsive, tip will generally throw the same lure farther than a rod that is softer and has a slower action. Factory ratings can definitely be inaccurate as to the blank's sweet spot--or range--where it performs the best.
Hope this helps.
Thank you again Chad. I may try all those things. The Fireline is more slick and springy, right?? There is also a partial spool of 10# PowerPro Slick and 12# Berkley Vanish around here somewhere.
You would know this. Is there an easy way to tell if the stripper is too close to the reel or too small for a spinning reel ? I have a larger BYAG stripper. It looks like about a 30 ring size.
The butt section would not bend excessively unless fighting a fish. By that time, the top third of the rod is a straight line pointing to the horizon. The MHX description says fast action. It feels pretty good when casting and not over-powered. Then again, it's MHX and not a Loomis or something.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on May 24, 2016, 08:00:38 PM
The butt section would not bend excessively unless fighting a fish. By that time, the top third of the rod is a straight line pointing to the horizon. The MHX description says fast action. It feels pretty good when casting and not over-powered. Then again, it's MHX and not a Loomis or something.
That clarifies it. When you said there was so much bend that the line was rubbing--I got a mental picture of those old Ugly-Stick ad's.. ;)
Quote from: oc1 on May 24, 2016, 08:00:38 PM
The Fireline is more slick and springy, right?? There is also a partial spool of 10# PowerPro Slick and 12# Berkley Vanish around here somewhere.
You would know this. Is there an easy way to tell if the stripper is too close to the reel or too small for a spinning reel ? I have a larger BYAG stripper. It looks like about a 30 ring size.
Fireline is slightly more springy and less prone to wind-knots. It's also more abrasion resistant when you compare the two lines at similar diameters.
For stripper guide ring size--half the diameter of the spool as you mentioned is a good rule of thumb to start with. A higher frame would allow you to drop down a ring size if using braid. Try pointing the rod tip at your lure/sinker as you slowly reel it in and study how the line is spiraling through the stripper. It should gently brush the entire circumference of the ring. If the line is only partially brushing the guide ring--or not at all--then the ring size is too big.
When test-casting any rod I like to use a fluorescent line that is easily visible. The blank is pointed to the sky at a 45 degree angle after the cast, whereupon I immediately look to see how the line is flowing off the reel. In this way I find it easy to tell if the line is slapping the blank--stripper set too far out, or if there is excessive resistance as the line flows through the stripper--stripper set too close.
On spinning rods of the type you're building, I like to initially place the stripper 20" from top of the spool as a baseline. Then, after test casts and fine-tunings are complete, it gets re-located anywhere from around 18-26" from the top of the spool.
Hope this helps.
And again, many thanks for the help.
Here's what I did:
tip top FOT-6-4 108.0"
KWAG-6J 105.0"
KWAG-6J 101.2"
KWAG-6J 96.6"
KWAG-6J 91.2"
KWAG-7J 85.0"
KWAG-8J 78.0"
KWAG-10J 70.2"
choker BYAG-10J 61.6"
BYAG-16J 52.2"
stripper BYAG-20J 42.0"
reel spool 17.0"
butt 0.0"
The axis of the 716Z pointed to a spot on the rod 45 inches from the spool. I screwed up and it's not a perfect bulls eye pattern but it's sorta kinda close.
I've been putting the baitcasting strippers about 24" from the spool but that seemed like it was short for a spinning rod. I couldn't find any good recommendations for that though.
I'll try looking at it while casting again and hope for better light. I'm on the beach at low tide. The jig is in the air for such a short period that it's hard to tell what's going on. Holding the rod up like you say and looking at it against the sky should help. Also, I need to start taping the guides and the reel on instead of wrapping. That part is getting old.
-steve
Layout looks pretty good--a hybrid between NGC and cone-of-flight.
I've had good luck using elastic sewing thread as temporary means for securing guides on these light rods.
Eight turns over the foot--secured fore and aft by a few half hitches--makes for a band of thread that is easy to adjust up or down the blank.
Tackle shops sell a similar product called "Mikes Magic Thread".
Got it now Chad. My biggest problem was that I was not wearing reading glasses. Holding the rod up and making a little flip cast with the guide right in front of my face made all the difference.
The spirals of line coming off the 716Z would sort of billow and get larger as they approached the stripper. The larger they became, the more they would slap the blank. Changing the size 20, 16, 10 BYAG to 30, 20,16 helped and prevented the line from slapping the blank. But, I could still throw an 1/8 ounce jig only 24 yards. The spirals were still billowing up in front of the stripper though so I moved it up to 18 inches in front of the spool, repositioned everything and added another guide to the train. This looked really good going through the guides but it was still only 24 yards.
So, a top shot of 30 yards of 10# Power Pro Slick with FG knot to eight foot of 12# Vanish leader was put on the reel. This helped a little and the distance increased to about 25 yards.
I found a Shimano TX 2000 with a broken AR selector lever in a box of junk (where it belongs) and tried throwing that with 12# mono. This came up really short; about 20 yards. The 10# braid top shot and leader was moved to the TX 2000 and then it would cast 25 yards too. Put the 10# top shot and leader on an old Bantam 100 with custom level wind guide and it would cast 25 yards. Put the 10# top shot and leader on the Curado 70 and it would cast 25 yards.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/2wtA.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/2wtB.jpg)
I'm going to throw good money after bad and try one more inexpensive reel when it arrives in the mail.
-steve
The saga of the rod to throw 1/8 ounce was continued here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=17978.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=17978.0)
But back to the Curado 70 and wet bearing issue. It has been five or six weeks of use with the fully ceramic spool bearings. With El Nino breaking up there have been fewer fishable days but I can usually get two or three times per week with about two hours of casting each trip. So, it must have been about two thousand casts with the full ceramic bearings fished dry without lubrication and they have been completely maintenance free. They occasionally get wet and you can always tell because the noise changes (it becomes more muffled) an there is a reduction in casting distance. When they get wet I turn the centrifugal brake knob on the tail plate exterior down 1.5 digits and the maximum casting distance is restored. Then, as the bearing flings the water away the spool will speed up and start to overrun/backlash so the centrifugal break dial must be turned up again.
The drag had started to stutter and I was curious to see how much water was accumulating inside so I cracked open the crankcase. There were water drops and droplets inside again but surprisingly (to me anyway) it was not any worse than the last time I opened it five weeks ago. The drops still tasted hypersaline, but there were no signs of crystallization or corrosion. The reel has a drain hole in the crankcase but I don't know if any water has been leaking out. I don't know if it has reached some sort of steady state with respect water and salt concentration. Not wanting to mess up a good thing, the bearings were not touched, the drag washers were cleaned and re-greased, some of the water drops were mopped up with a paper towel, and it was put back together.
I'm pretty happy about how its going with fully ceramic bearings. They are still very noisy, but they still cast great and no bearing maintenance has been required. At $63 each, I thought fully ceramic bearings were a luxury item. But, cleaning bearings can become a chore and time is money. If I were paying myself minimum wage to clean and install bearings (no, I mean the old minimum wage) I would break even on the deal in a few more months (if they last that long). Fishing has not been very good but I caught a few including a really nice one that almost stripped the reel on the first run. There are no problems so far with the bearings holding up to the pressure. We'll see how it goes.
-steve
Edited to get the bearing price correct. They're even more expensive than I remembered.
Great job on the reel analysis !
Like to ask the drag washer dimensions, planning to swap mine for carbontex
On top of the main gear the washer is 35 mm o.d. x 26 m i.d. x 1 mm thick. The inside diameter is not critical on this one because the stainless steel domed keyed washer rides only on a small area.
Below the main gear the washer is 27 mm o.d. x 8 mm i.d. x 1 mm thick. The outside diameter is not critical on this one.
I cut the washer above the main gear out of 1.2 mm thick carbontex. When the star is backed off all the way, it only has to be rotated about 100 degrees before it starts compressing the drag washer. I may switch the lower drag washer to 1.2 mm thick carbontex too.
Here is a shot of the finish peeling off the Curado 70XG. There are tiny blisters in the black composite material that makes the silver stuff flake off. I popped one of the blisters with a needle under magnification and there was fluid inside. Water intrusion into the composite? I've seen the same thing on other composite frame reels and do not consider it a big deal. Just cosmetic.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado11.jpg)
Here is a cryptic photo of salt crystals that formed on top of Yamaha blue grease. Some of the salt nodules are 2-3 mm in size. There is no corrosion inside to I don't worry about them. The weep hole (drain hole) on the head plate is on the forward end. How many people store a rod and reel with the forward end pointed down? The weep hole needs to be toward the rear so water can drip out.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/curado12.jpg)
The pinion bearing was getting a little stiff and crusty. I had never removed it since installing the full ceramic spool bearings because the right side spool bearing has to be removed to get to the pinion bearing. I cleaned the pinion bearing and ordered a orange seal ceramic hybrid bearing to replace it next time I have to crack open the reel.
The full ceramic bearings are still very noisy. I thought I would get used to it but it's like living next to the freeway... you never get completely used to it. Sometimes when it is very still and quiet out on the water I would like to be alone with my tinnitus.
Overall, I'm still very pleased with the reel though. I would like to have two of them and there is nothing else like it in the market. The price has dropped a few bucks since their release but I cannot afford another reel and another set of ceramic bearings right now.
-steve
Hi bro need help on something
Did you encounter the line stacking on one side ?
Mine stacked on the right side. Did 5 trials, all mounted on the rod with line running to all of the
Guides with medium tension while keeping it aligned to the line spooler.
I dismantled the levelwind assembly cleaning and checking for issues but its clear.
Stil stacking after reassembly.
Checked the schematics and i noticed it did not show the 2 washers on the right side of the worm gear.
Does yours have it also ?
Also, is there a washer between the plastic gear and bushing of the levelwind ?
I would have to look again to be sure, but think there is a little washer between the worm and the 'E' clip on the left side and a plastic bushing between the worm and the gear on the right side.
I had trouble with line stacking on one side. But, the problem was the composite spacers (wear plates) that the end of the spool shaft contacts. It is what the spool shaft touches in the tail plate and the cast control knob. They are black, about 4 mm diameter, about 1 mm thick and look sort of like carbontex. One sits in a recess in the tail plate behind the bearing and the other sits in a recess in the cast control knob. I did not put oil or lubrication on these for fear of contaminating the bearing with oil. But, oil is the only thing that makes them stick in place until the tail plate is installed and the cast control knob is screwed on the head plate. One of mine had slipped a bit and was resting on the edge of the recess instead of the down in the recess. I figured it out by looking at the spool. The area between the edge of the spool and the frame was larger on one side than the other. In other words, the spool was not exactly centered. This made the line stack up on one side. I put a tiny glob of grease under them so they would not move before everything was put together.
-steve
Thanx bro.
Checked it again and problem still persists.
Any advice ?
Quote from: Jayce on September 03, 2016, 10:59:55 AM
Thanx bro.
Checked it again and problem still persists.
Any advice ?
Is this a new reel or an old one that developed this trouble?
Can be caused by lateral play in the spool because the cast control knob is not screwed down tight enough. Do you have any lateral play in the spool?
new reel
It was more obvious before I opened the reel.
When I reassembled it it somewhat corrected it a little but still uneven.
check spool no lateral play.
Will be doing a final check tonight
The other thing is that the way the line stacks can be somewhat influenced by the rod. If I am constantly casting to my left side the line will stack a little bit more to the left because the rod is bent that direction on the retrieve and the line is usually on the left side of the rod guides and the levelwind guide. The line lay will never be perfect. If it is not bad enough to cause a problem then just ignore it. It does not affect performance. A picture would help.
-steve