I'm hoping you guys could help me with this issue.
Friend of mine passed me his brand new (used 5 days) reel to open up his reel clamp post which was no big deal. Since I've always wanted an Accurate I went on to test and measure the drag as well. To my suprise I was just testing 5.5 kg @ Strike and it squeaked like spent brakes of a car, some stuttering was also detected! I opened it up and saw some water (saltwater), the drag washers and plates appear well greased.
I cleaned the washers anyway, and regreased them. Well at 5.5 kg @ Strike the drag is now quiet and silky smooth. When I pressed on to Full which I measured 8.0 kg, the squeaking came back and stutters after about 3 ft of line has been pulled.
Any of you guys encountered this problem before? I'm thinking that the drag plate surface is actually rather small, which I know wouldn't really affect drag force but could this be the problem for the noise and stuttering? I do have the clone of the Accurate which is the Poseidon 200R but that reel has a flat drag plate and the drag performs pretty well.
(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p635/mahfudzmn/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120275-001_zpsspet15oc.jpg) (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/mahfudzmn/media/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120275-001_zpsspet15oc.jpg.html)
The reel in question
(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p635/mahfudzmn/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120277-001_zpsyyzmqalg.jpg) (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/mahfudzmn/media/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120277-001_zpsyyzmqalg.jpg.html)
View from handle sideplate
(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p635/mahfudzmn/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120264-001_zpsci9xpwnk.jpg) (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/mahfudzmn/media/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120264-001_zpsci9xpwnk.jpg.html)
Saltwater in the drag. Also visible on the drag washer is the working/effective area of the drag plate on the washer
(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p635/mahfudzmn/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120262-001_zpsmjszjmiy.jpg) (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/mahfudzmn/media/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120262-001_zpsmjszjmiy.jpg.html)
Drag plate is smaller than drag washer but that's not so surprising
(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p635/mahfudzmn/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120270-001_zpsvbigo29r.jpg) (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/mahfudzmn/media/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120270-001_zpsvbigo29r.jpg.html)
This is what surprised me, I was expecting a flat drag plate. Rather the plate area is just the ones you can see my light ring reflected on. There onwards to the center of the plate concave inwards hence doesn't touch the drag washer.
The inner surface of the drag plate has almost zero contribution to braking force.
Somewhere around here there is an old post where we discuss this as the diameter of the disk is everything and the inner surface area almost nothing...the analogy was to brakes on a bike where the tiny calipers acting on the rim of a wheel have great force due to the large distance from the center, whereas old drum brakes in the hub can barely stop the bike.
Anyways, Accurate does that to lighten the reel and is one more step they take that others don't to improve their reel.
A 400 sized reel is quite small (ie the drag plate diameter is not going to be large) so I think 8kg max is about right and certainly no one's pinion bearing is going to survive much more than that (other than a Penn Torque/Fathom). Dual drag reels make more but for that size reel you have about what it is able to do.
Well, this is kind of interesting.... it looks like the drag plate is anodized aluminum.
I was, for many years, very interested in friction materials and have tested many types in many ways. And, as an extension of that, also considered several types of opposing surface. And among them, anodized aluminum.
Now i don't recall the details this many years later, but i do recall that it tended to shudder and stutter.
Now, if Accurate has thought or done differently, okay... good for them. Or?
.
Quote from: johndtuttle on May 12, 2016, 05:27:50 PM
The inner surface of the drag plate has almost zero contribution to braking force.
Somewhere around here there is an old post where we discuss this as the diameter of the disk is everything and the inner surface area almost nothing...the analogy was to brakes on a bike where the tiny calipers acting on the rim of a wheel have great force due to the large distance from the center, whereas old drum brakes in the hub can barely stop the bike.
Anyways, Accurate does that to lighten the reel and is one more step they take that others don't to improve their reel.
A 400 sized reel is quite small (ie the drag plate diameter is not going to be large) so I think 8kg max is about right and certainly no one's pinion bearing is going to survive much more than that (other than a Penn Torque/Fathom). Dual drag reels make more but for that size reel you have about what it is able to do.
I second that since I've seen many Shimano Baitcasters using this bike wheel concept with large washers and large inner hole making the distance furthest from the center to achieve higher drag. I was a bit intrigued with this Accurate design that they didn't make the drag plate as large as the washer. Second, while making the plate this way seems a good way to achieve higher drag, could the reduced surface area sacrificed the smoothness and noise? I'm thinking something along the line like the force is the same but with higher pressure on the reduced effective surface is asking too much from the carbontex?
That 5.5/8.0 kg Strike/Full is what I randomly landed on when I was testing it, turns out this setting was about a half turn loose of the cam before last Free spool point. So it could easily get more than what I tested.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on May 12, 2016, 07:20:58 PM
Well, this is kind of interesting.... it looks like the drag plate is anodized aluminum.
I was, for many years, very interested in friction materials and have tested many types in many ways. And, as an extension of that, also considered several types of opposing surface. And among them, anodized aluminum.
Now i don't recall the details this many years later, but i do recall that it tended to shudder and stutter.
Now, if Accurate has thought or done differently, okay... good for them. Or?
.
Now that you've mentioned it, I recall that some of the reels I worked on like the Ryoga, Tatula, Calcutta and some Revo do have aluminum plates on top of the stack (the others stainless steel) but usually washers in good condition don't stutter on me with these reels. Thing is it not only stutter but sounds like brakes on a car too ???
Did you clean up both drags?
Quote from: day0ne on May 13, 2016, 04:31:25 AM
Did you clean up both drags?
I have cleaned both drag washers and plates. When I greased them I did just as I've done for the reels I've serviced. When this one still came back squeaky, I wanted to ask if anyone is experiencing the same issue
Quote from: johndtuttle on May 12, 2016, 05:27:50 PM
The inner surface of the drag plate has almost zero contribution to braking force.
Somewhere around here there is an old post where we discuss this as the diameter of the disk is everything and the inner surface area almost nothing...the analogy was to brakes on a bike where the tiny calipers acting on the rim of a wheel have great force due to the large distance from the center, whereas old drum brakes in the hub can barely stop the bike.
Anyways, Accurate does that to lighten the reel and is one more step they take that others don't to improve their reel.
A 400 sized reel is quite small (ie the drag plate diameter is not going to be large) so I think 8kg max is about right and certainly no one's pinion bearing is going to survive much more than that (other than a Penn Torque/Fathom). Dual drag reels make more but for that size reel you have about what it is able to do.
I never though of this before John - Thank you for explaining. I guess it makes a lot of sense... I just bought sheets of cf to increase the drag surface in my reel. I can get approx 20% extra contact surface by cutting a smaller inner diameter than the stock washers.... I though that this made the reel produce higher drag with less strain on bearings... I guess it wont help one bit!?
Quote from: hafnor on May 19, 2016, 10:13:19 AM
Quote from: johndtuttle on May 12, 2016, 05:27:50 PM
The inner surface of the drag plate has almost zero contribution to braking force.
Somewhere around here there is an old post where we discuss this as the diameter of the disk is everything and the inner surface area almost nothing...the analogy was to brakes on a bike where the tiny calipers acting on the rim of a wheel have great force due to the large distance from the center, whereas old drum brakes in the hub can barely stop the bike.
Anyways, Accurate does that to lighten the reel and is one more step they take that others don't to improve their reel.
A 400 sized reel is quite small (ie the drag plate diameter is not going to be large) so I think 8kg max is about right and certainly no one's pinion bearing is going to survive much more than that (other than a Penn Torque/Fathom). Dual drag reels make more but for that size reel you have about what it is able to do.
I never though of this before John - Thank you for explaining. I guess it makes a lot of sense... I just bought sheets of cf to increase the drag surface in my reel. I can get approx 20% extra contact surface by cutting a smaller inner diameter than the stock washers.... I though that this made the reel produce higher drag with less strain on bearings... I guess it wont help one bit!?
Sorry, but the increase in braking force should be completely negligible. :)
When calculating braking force for a drag disc it is proportional to the distance from the rotational center to the outer edge due to "braking torque". The further the distance from the rotational center the greater the contribution of the surface.
If you could make your disc wider then the gain would be very significant, or, if you added a second disc (like an Avet Raptor). But filling in the inner volume has little effect. The torque of the spool height easily overwhelms drag effects near the rotational center. Its a "leverage" principle like any other lever arm.
The caliper of a bike brake analogy is the easiest to grasp. The tiny surface acting on the rim of the wheel far from the rotational center has great effect. Move the same caliper closer and closer to the rotational center and it's ability to brake is greatly diminished.
Ideally, you would simply fish a Penn Torque instead and save your bearings with a thrust bearing rather than fish a Jigging Master. :)
I see. Just never thought of this! Too bad though, as the sheets are already bought. I guess I can find some other old reels to replace some teflon/felt/dartanium washers.
Now your suggestion about changing out my JM´s in favor of Penn I am more doubtful ;D I love them. Although a thrust bearing would be a very good option on these reels.
Anyways always nice to here your inputs John - Greatly appreciated and always qualified!
Quote from: mahfudzmn on May 16, 2016, 02:47:49 PM
Quote from: day0ne on May 13, 2016, 04:31:25 AM
Did you clean up both drags?
I have cleaned both drag washers and plates. When I greased them I did just as I've done for the reels I've serviced. When this one still came back squeaky, I wanted to ask if anyone is experiencing the same issue
Have you inspected the drag plate connection to the pinion shaft? It will not explain the squeaking but it might explain the uneven "jerky" feeling. If there is a slight missalignement there it could be the reason. See if the C-ring is properly attached on the left side (guess it is your right side as you have a lefty).
If it doesn´t work, you should send it to accurate. One of the perks with accurate alongside there magnificent reels is they're outstanding customer service!
Hafnor,
I second what John explained about there'll be little use in changing the CF sheet. The only thing that it'll come to use is when your drag washers have thinned down that the 'clamping' gets loose because of the decrease in thickness of the drag stack.
I still think after so much thinking about this 700 dollars reel, that they have decreased the drag surface so much that is causing the problem. A lot of reels I see especially lever drag and heavy drag reels don't have this kind of design with their drag plate. Like I said earlier, it is asking bit too much from the carbontex by making the braking area so small. After I cleaned and regreased it, it went silent at the earlier tested 5.5 kg, but when I pushed it higher at about 8kg, the sound and stuttering came back...I'm very inclined to think this is a design issue
Also, what John said about taking the braking torque to the outermost diameter is right, provided that the drag plate could actually transfer the clamping or pinning down force effectively. Some cheaper baitcasters tried to do this but failed miserably due to the drag plate flexing and acting like a spring instead of transfering the force.
Is the sound appearing when you reel with the handle? or when drag is being pulled?
I find it strange that the drag plate design does not cover more of the washer...
Quote from: hafnor on May 24, 2016, 09:07:11 AM
Is the sound appearing when you reel with the handle? or when drag is being pulled?
I find it strange that the drag plate design does not cover more of the washer...
The squeak and stutter is when the drag is being pulled sir. Well I'm surprised when I saw the drag plate too :)
I still think it is really strange to run the drag directly on aluminum. Almost as if someone forgot to install the usual titanium disc.
.
Unless it is actually titanium and not aluminium. The process of anodising titanium hardens the surface - it should make an excellent drag component. Is the drag assembly, at the other end of the spool, the same. With Accurate Twin Drags the drag plate at either end should be the same.
Accurate are claiming 30lb of drag for the BX400N :-\
Yes, I was wondering that as well.
But since when would Accurate start making the whole unit out of one piece of titanium, and then bothering to anodize it? (not same process as anodizing aluminum) And fwiw it does just fine without anodizing too. Odd.
(The anodized surface of aluminum is also very hard and allows excellent thermal conduction; maybe thats what they were thinking. I still have some of the components from old drag testing days. I tried it yesterday; just gave it a manual, how-does-this-feel try. No squealing, but with a noticeable startup stick-slip tug. Maybe I will look into it further. But if they decided to run with this using grease as a cure-all, I would be surprised. But hey, good for them, right?)
This unit in the pics differs from schematics, too. Maybe they just decided to change things.
Peculiar.
.
I did experiment with an aluminium drag plate for my line spooler drag system - because it was easier to cut and drill.
There was start up inertia but I don't remember any 'stuttering'. It did score quite badly under even light load. My view was aluminium is not fit for purpose. If the reel is maxing out at 8kg of drag, there is definitely something wrong :-\
And what is this? Looks like a second groove for another snap ring. Could be used for holding a disc, for example.
Well spotted Robert. The schematic is only showing 1 snap ring, a drag cap retainer. It refers to a drag cap on top of a titanium drag washer. Hopefully the OP will get back to us with the results of a comparison of both ends of the drag setup. Have Accurate missed a process? Or has someone else stripped the reel and failed to replace the titanium drag washer :-\
Just found the attached photo. It suggests that the titanium drag washer is the same size as the cf. Suggesting it is missing. Back to the factory under warranty me thinks.
That reel is put together by Anglers Outfitters in Singapore. That doesn't look like the drag plate in my Accurates. Maybe they are making changes like the Australian distributor does. Just a thought.
never seen this before, but i wonder if water has been "emulsified" into the teflon grease. ok, here's what i know....
drags work perfectly at any pressure - when you have greased carbon fiber and both surfaces (the pressure plate and the carbon fiber) are perfectly trued up and are greased with no water intrusion.
drags stick and high and low pressures - when there is extensive corrosion and salt deposition, even if the drags are greased.
drags stick at low pressures but less so at high pressures - when there is a high spot in the grease carbon fiber. the high spot comes from, say, a pea-sized spot of corrosion in the aluminum, right under the carbon fiber.
drags are smooth at low pressure but sticky at high - never seen this before with greased carbon fiber. i think that one possibility was that water is incorporated into the drag grease. in pharmacy school, we learned how to make "water in oil" emulsions, as well as "oil in water" emulsions. it's possible that you might have a "water in oil" emulsion
to check this theory, you would toss the drag washers into a toaster oven at 150 to 200 degrees fahrenheit for a half hour to cook out all the water, then reinstall the drag washers and see.
how's that for a wild guess? ;D
Quote from: alantani on May 26, 2016, 12:23:12 AM
never seen this before, but i wonder if water has been "emulsified" into the teflon grease. ok, here's what i know....
drags work perfectly at any pressure - when you have greased carbon fiber and both surfaces (the pressure plate and the carbon fiber) are perfectly trued up and are greased with no water intrusion.
drags stick and high and low pressures - when there is extensive corrosion and salt deposition, even if the drags are greased.
drags stick at low pressures but less so at high pressures - when there is a high spot in the grease carbon fiber. the high spot comes from, say, a pea-sized spot of corrosion in the aluminum, right under the carbon fiber.
drags are smooth at low pressure but sticky at high - never seen this before with greased carbon fiber. i think that one possibility was that water is incorporated into the drag grease. in pharmacy school, we learned how to make "water in oil" emulsions, as well as "oil in water" emulsions. it's possible that you might have a "water in oil" emulsion
to check this theory, you would toss the drag washers into a toaster oven at 150 to 200 degrees fahrenheit for a half hour to cook out all the water, then reinstall the drag washers and see.
how's that for a wild guess? ;D
sounds sound to me dr. tani!
I did degreased and regreased both washers but didn't go for the toasting. It makes perfect sense! Water could do that, I think I just refused to think about it at that time because it's not a cheapo. However Alan, if the drag surface is decreased by so much, would it start diminishing in terms of smoothness?
I emailed Accurate and got a reply from Accurate Malaysia Distributor is asking for the reel to be sent back. So maybe I'll just wait for the findings after my client send the reel in. Will keep you guys posted :)
Did you email them a picture?
Quote from: Robert Janssen on June 01, 2016, 11:25:57 PM
Did you email them a picture?
I didn't as I queried directly at the Accurate website and instead I referred them to this post. My client has yet to send his reel in so I'm still waiting for an answer. FYI these are the new reels supposedly designed or modified by Anglers Outfitters Singapore as the RnD rep for South East Asia market.
I've also got 2 clients asking about the Valiant 300 having dissapointly little drag but I'm yet to attend to any of the clients' reel. Would be interesting when I get the clients' reels somewhere in July
Bit of an update
So I had a chance to open up a BX600N AOF Jigging Special. I tested the drag prior and they worked fantastic unlike the smaller model BX400N which I posted previously. I think I know why and it kinda confirms my suspicion that the effective drag surface in the BX400N is a lot smaller than what it should be. The BX600N seems to have adequate drag plate surface which is why it didn't have the squeaking and stutters.
But that's what I thought and I'm no pro with reel designs so let me just share the photos from the two reels and you may build your own thoughts around them.
(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p635/mahfudzmn/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120264-001_zpsci9xpwnk.jpg) (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/mahfudzmn/media/160512%20Accurate%20BX400N/P5120264-001_zpsci9xpwnk.jpg.html)
BX400N drag assembly which I've shared earlier
(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p635/mahfudzmn/Accurate%20BX600N/P7214560_zpseisrykpr.jpg) (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/mahfudzmn/media/Accurate%20BX600N/P7214560_zpseisrykpr.jpg.html)
The BX600N in which I think have much better effective drag plate surface
I'm not bringing up anything about how much the drag power is not really related to the surface area etc. Rather I'm interested in knowing if having too small a drag surface would sacrifice smoothness
There's also another reel that's showing up a lot in Malaysian used market which is the Accurate Valiant 300, a few clients have told me about drag problems which I think could be related to this BX series. I don't know for sure, I haven't had a Valiant show up to my shop yet :)
Funny, I was thinking of this just yesterday while I was fiddling with my own Accurate.
I am still wondering what happened to the titanium drag washer. You mean none of these BX-x00 AOF reels have real drag washers?? What about on the other side of the spool?
And what did Accurate say when you asked them?
.
Robert, I assume you're referring to the drag plate? Tbh I've no idea to tell if the material was titanium or aluminum, I've seen titanium plates from Blue Heaven reels before, I think the ones in these Accurate I saw are made of anodized aluminum, I don't know for sure.
Btw, the BX400 is the first I took apart, this BX600 is only the 2nd Accurate I've seen, so I must say I'm not well versed with accurate reels
I find it strange that they are using aluminum as a drag plate. It expands more under heat than steel, amd is a lot softer. I had a studio ocean mark reel that had aluminum drag plates. It work flawless with the original heat treated cork washers. Ones I hnaged the washers to carbon fiber it made grinding noise - Still smooth drag though....
Thinking of buying a valiant. Seems like a lot of grunt for the dollar at 400usd. I do not like the gear ratio though. Too high for my style. Wonder if the main and pinion gears are changable with the bx range... Would love something in the 4:1 or 5:1 range