OK guys, got a real head scratcher here. I am going to do a series of pictures here of a reel that was found hanging on the ceiling of a tackle shop in Florida. The new owner has tried to buy this rig for some time now and finally did the deal, so, no need to ask if it for sale. I already asked, it is not.
Starting with a parts break down. We are lucky enough to see the reel in its broken down state and restored state. The rod tip, which I will picture at the end of this picture run I believe is a Tycoon tip with Montague guides that may have been added when the rod was rebuilt.
Here we go::
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Big%20Game%20One%20Off%20Prototype--Penn%20Style/20-0--1%20576%20x%20432_zpsrjstyo5g.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Big%20Game%20One%20Off%20Prototype--Penn%20Style/20-0--2%20532%20x%20399_zpsjrzvus1l.jpg)
There is some hint of Penn Parts here. The trim rings and side plates look like Penn except for the fact that the side plates are 9 inches in diameter. The spool is obviously not Penn and it is also massive at 6 1/2 inches wide. I see some early Penn parts in the mix and also see some custom made stuff.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Big%20Game%20One%20Off%20Prototype--Penn%20Style/20-0--3%20493%20x%20370_zpsx3hg3cvy.jpg)
The inners of the head plate look like prototype to me. Might even be a machined from a big block of Bakelite, rather than molded. Opiinions????---------------Tom Greene corrected me. The side plates were made out of Hard Rubber. They are machined.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Big%20Game%20One%20Off%20Prototype--Penn%20Style/20-0--4%20637%20x%20500_zpscrsaau5g.jpg)
Now here is a Twilight Zone Penn reel. No doubt in the size zone of 20/0, even with a built in Assist Handle and a pipe mounted into the stand for the rod tip to mount.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Big%20Game%20One%20Off%20Prototype--Penn%20Style/20-0--5%20454%20x%20491_zpssy6o9biz.jpg)
View from the side of this monster displays a very well made One Off (maybe).. Anyone seen anything like it?
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Big%20Game%20One%20Off%20Prototype--Penn%20Style/20-0--6%20595%20x%20509_zps1ojit1ir.jpg)
Not too sure about the frame strength here with single cross bars.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Big%20Game%20One%20Off%20Prototype--Penn%20Style/20-0--Custom%20Rod--7%201139%20x%20275_zpsjxcoshgf.jpg)
Now we are getting very interesting. The rod tip is solid Hickory and shaped like a Royal Hickory Tycoon rod blank; but, the guides are Montague guides. At the base of the tip you can see where the tip would be mounted in the pipe portion of the stand.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Big%20Game%20One%20Off%20Prototype--Penn%20Style/20-0--Custom%20Rod--8%201041%20x%20203_zpsfu6qb2rg.jpg)
This is true big game style from the 1930's
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Big%20Game%20One%20Off%20Prototype--Penn%20Style/20-0--Custom%20Rod--9%20316%20x%20566_zpsxwjbl3m5.jpg)
This is the inscription on the rod tip. Very hard to read. I made a negative out of it and was able to get some of the meaning.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Big%20Game%20One%20Off%20Prototype--Penn%20Style/untitled%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy%20474%20x%20684_zpsqzuu2tlh.jpg)
What I believe it says is "Built by (Then the builders name) then ending with the location of the rod tip builder, Linden, New Jersey"
Well that is it. I am throwing this out there for opinions or anything we can come with about this super find IMHO. I am going to try to get the owner to join our site also. I believe he lives in San Diego, Ca.
Thank you all in advance for anything we come up with about this very interesting find.
Very interesting reel there Mike. It sure appears to be a custom built reel. Considering the cost of reels this size, it is not surprising to me that, occasionally there might be some entrepreneurs designing and building reels. The spool appears to have been designed for linen line, the top handle, and other design features may provide some clues as to the possible vintage.
Thanks for sharing!
John
There is some provenance here. This reel hung from the ceiling of a tackle shop in Florida for 20 Years+. The shop owner said it had been brought into his shop over 20 years ago by an elderly lady . She said it was her husbands reel. Her husband had passed away and she wanted to sell his stuff . Her husband was a former Penn employee. Here lies a bit of Plot Thickening...
QuoteVery interesting reel there Mike. It sure appears to be a custom built reel. Considering the cost of reels this size, it is not surprising to me that, occasionally there might be some entrepreneurs designing and building reels. The spool appears to have been designed for linen line, the top handle, and other design features may provide some clues as to the possible vintage.
Cannot say for sure; but, the reel sort of tells me it is a pre-war design. This could be a Penn factory prototype or not. The workmanship looks kind of too good for a do it yourself type job. I see weak links in the actual structure of the reel, especially for a reel that is so massive. The cross bars seem inadequate and the spool seems delicate. The gearing is Penn, the drags looks like old asbestos or maybe even heavy leather so that part of the reel is strong enough; but, that is definitely Penn Parts. The Assist Handle does not look strong enough to be an assist handle unless it was only used for lifting the rod from the gunwales to the fighting chair. I also do not like the short bit of rod ferrule, that does not seem strong enough. Don't know how the rod butt works into all this. I guess it was not with the rig.
All opinions about this rig have value here. No observation is insignificant. I welcome all comments about this rig.
Eccentric spring looks hand made, and its intetesring that there are 3 seperate attachment points (maybe intentional to adjust the tension?). Dog spring is interesting as well. The bearings look pretty heavy, but appear to be non-adjystable. I agree, the spool and the rod ferrule both look a little weak for a reel of this caliber. Are the posts steel or bronze? They appear to have shoulders, and the reel base itself appears to be a relatively strong design. Maybe a bit reminiscent of a Pflueger?
The drag and head plate bearing is accessible from the outside. During what period was that a thing?
No rod braces. Front and rear rod braces could have helped overcome some serious problems with the ferrule. Every other reel maker was using them. A hickory rod could have been made in one piece (butt handle and tip all one piece of wood). But, that funky ferrule on the real stand would mean the reel could never come off the rod without removing the guides or removing the reel stand. The handle is probably missing because it broke off.
The side plates could have been turned. Most of the non-Penn parts could have been made in many machine shops.... except the rings; they would be really difficult if you were not set up for it.
It makes no sense that a present or former Penn employee would make something like this. They would know better. Perhaps the guy made it before he went to work for Penn. It would be a good thing to take along with you to a job interview.
-steve
Mike, I think I see lathe marks on the inside of the head plate, but the outside looks like it was molded. Are you sure it is Bakelite and not hard rubber? The hot needle trick (on the inside) should work to determine the material. It's got to be either HR or Bakelite, not old enough for mud. Unless they were also experimenting with a new material....
Can you PM or email me the color photo of the inscription on the rod? I want to play with it a little, and I can't download it from here. I think I can almost read what you posted.
Sid
Wow Mike, I can't stop looking at this one.
Bakelite or not, that is one cool reel. To me it appears to be combined with a few other manufactures. Obviously not their parts, but their design style.
It might not be for sale, but there is always the possibility of an offer he can't refuse...I'm not in that category :).
Now, have I seen it all?...probably not.
Gorgeous reel Mike, thank you for posting it here.
Sal
Wow, what an amazing piece of history..
Jan
QuoteWow Mike, I can't stop looking at this one.
Bakelite or not, that is one cool reel. To me it appears to be combined with a few other manufactures. Obviously not their parts, but their design style.
It might not be for sale, but there is always the possibility of an offer he can't refuse...I'm not in that category Smiley.
Now, have I seen it all?...probably not.
Gorgeous reel Mike, thank you for posting it here.
Yup, this one is strange. Being that the story about this reel is at this time slim, the combined thinking is that is was a Penn prototype that went with the employee / designer / engineer or aka someone when he retired. It is a vintage piece and the employee passed away over 25 years ago, so the entire real history of this piece could be lost to the ages. There are a few more avenues to follow up on, so maybe more real info will come out of the closet. Until then, it is fun to speculate, as most historians do. ;D
Very Cool Find Mike!
I seriously doubt I will ever see another one.
Great post Mike - thanks for sharing!
QuoteVery Cool Find Mike!
I seriously doubt I will ever see another one.
I knew you would like it Daron. I suspect you are correct about seeing another one. This is probably a One Off Prototype.
QuoteGreat post Mike - thanks for sharing!
My pleasure. Hope to find a member that has an inclination of its origins.
I just love these one off/prototype finds...great post Mike! 8)
I don't know if this can be of any help dating, but note that "if" this had been a Penn Senator it would have been of the first-generation configuration with the gear box at the 5 o'clock position. That would date it late 30's early 40's. Since it isn't a Penn Senator I don't know if this is of any significance or not. I wonder if this was a prototype made at the Penn plant during the war when the plant was converted over to wartime production, and thus materials were scarce and new parts were not made...? Makes for a nice story, true or not :)
Sid
Too cool....love this stuff.
Love it,,,,what part of Florida was this found
First, I'd like to introduce myself to this forum. My name is John Bechtold and this is my first post. I am the fortunate owner of this Loch Ness 20/0 reel. I want to thank everyone for your comments. It has been a fun mystery to be part of. Although the exact provenance will probably never be known, it is fun to speculate the reel's history. Many of the anglers who saw it hanging from the ceiling of the tackle shop thought it looked an awful lot like a Penn. It wasn't until we opened it up and noted Penn parts inside that we felt it could have actually been manufactured by Penn, possibly as a prototype. And thanks to John Elder for helping me with the break down and cleaning, and Mike Cass for starting this thread. I also owe a big debt of gratitude to the tackle shop owner for selling me the reel. Hopefully, new information regarding the reel and the rod will filter in.
Cheers,
John
Welcome aboard John, very cool piece you own no matter the history.....it oooozes cool out of every square inch !!!
It seems appearant that there are penn parts involved, but as we all know there are many manufacturers today that rely penn parts for internals, and they aren't considered a "Penn" reel.
What I noticed right away about this reel is the cover over the exposed drags. I noticed the cutout for the bearing cup and the cutout for the exposed drags overlapped. This would possibly be a huge weak link, thus the star shaped screwed on cover over that area.
Here's is my 2 cents, take it with a grain of salt.......IMHO Penn already had the best product (senators) and had the lions share of the market at that time and already had a bullet proof design still in use today, so no need for fancy new designs. I don't see this as a prototype, but as a very cool reel built by a talented craftsman who had access to a reel manufacturing plant. Possibly Penn plant, but there were literally hundreds of manufacturers back then so who knows ??
Quote from: Deepfins on May 15, 2017, 09:40:18 PM
First, I'd like to introduce myself to this forum. My name is John Bechtold and this is my first post. I am the fortunate owner of this Loch Ness 20/0 reel. I want to thank everyone for your comments. It has been a fun mystery to be part of. Although the exact provenance will probably never be known, it is fun to speculate the reel's history. Many of the anglers who saw it hanging from the ceiling of the tackle shop thought it looked an awful lot like a Penn. It wasn't until we opened it up and noted Penn parts inside that we felt it could have actually been manufactured by Penn, possibly as a prototype. And thanks to John Elder for helping me with the break down and cleaning, and Mike Cass for starting this thread. I also owe a big debt of gratitude to the tackle shop owner for selling me the reel. Hopefully, new information regarding the reel and the rod will filter in.
Cheers,
John
Welcome John, nice to have yo9u aboard....How much?... ;D
Interesting, the reel is larger than the 16/0 and the gears and bridge appear to be the same as the 116.
John, do you happen to have the dimensions on those washers?
Sal
Welcome John!
And so it begins.....
welcome John. It is interesting to join the mystery. If the mystery is keeping you up nights I'll take it off your hands for $20.00. :D ;D Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on May 15, 2017, 11:38:35 PM
welcome John. It is interesting to join the mystery. If the mystery is keeping you up nights I'll take it off your hands for $20.00. :D ;D Dominick
Robber!
I'll give you $21!
Thanks, all! Attached are a couple more pic's. One shows the diameter of the drag discs (1 and 49/64th's), and the other shows the clicker mechanism on the inside of the backplate. The drag discs are 5/32nd's thick
I just spoke with the tackle shop owner I purchased the reel from, and kindly got his permission to mention his name and shop. It is none other than Tom Greene of Custom Rod and Reel, Ft. Lauderdale, FL.
JB
Isn't that Lighthouse Point, FL.? I'm only about a 1/2 mile from there. Rudy
Yep, Lighthouse Point.
Welcome John....Hey these guys are trying to rob you of that treasure...I'll give you $21.50 and shipping at your cost... ;D ;D ;D Bill
Carbon date the side plates ;D
Spoke with Tom Greene today. He added to the story. He said the reel hung from the ceiling of a Tackle Shop in Pennsylvania from pre-war era before he got it. So this reel dates to the 1930's. He also said the side plates are hard rubber, not Bakelite.
Mr. Greene feels the rod is a non-Tycoon rod, so I make the rod out to be a Montague.
QuoteI don't know if this can be of any help dating, but note that "if" this had been a Penn Senator it would have been of the first-generation configuration with the gear box at the 5 o'clock position. That would date it late 30's early 40's. Since it isn't a Penn Senator I don't know if this is of any significance or not. I wonder if this was a prototype made at the Penn plant during the war when the plant was converted over to wartime production, and thus materials were scarce and new parts were not made...? Makes for a nice story, true or not Smiley
Sid
I tend to agree with Ted. I believe this reel was made using Penn parts of the era; but, it is not a Penn prototype. And as mentioned by Sid, it is in a Penn First Generation Penn configuration, so it is a Penn Senator first gen copy on Steroids. Those trim rings are really special. Have not got an answer for 9 inch trim rings yet.
QuoteFirst, I'd like to introduce myself to this forum. My name is John Bechtold and this is my first post. I am the fortunate owner of this Loch Ness 20/0 reel. I want to thank everyone for your comments. It has been a fun mystery to be part of. Although the exact provenance will probably never be known, it is fun to speculate the reel's history. Many of the anglers who saw it hanging from the ceiling of the tackle shop thought it looked an awful lot like a Penn. It wasn't until we opened it up and noted Penn parts inside that we felt it could have actually been manufactured by Penn, possibly as a prototype. And thanks to John Elder for helping me with the break down and cleaning, and Mike Cass for starting this thread. I also owe a big debt of gratitude to the tackle shop owner for selling me the reel. Hopefully, new information regarding the reel and the rod will filter in.
Cheers,
John
Glad you joined in John, you have joined a group of true fishing purists. The Best of the Best reside here. And this site must rank No. 1 as the friendliest place on the web. Welcome!!
Looks like the gears and washers are just as unique.
Compared to the 116, those are larger, but still smaller than the 16/0, I don't believe there is any part that could be swapped from the later models on this reel.
What surprised me the most, the metal gear cover and the star. If you look close at the top end of the main gear, tolerance is very tight there.
You would have a hard time trying to get those gears out of alignement, the star design would also help it when buttoned down.
Let's did in guys, it would also be nice to find out who used it...if any.
What a treasure....
Sal
QuoteLooks like the gears and washers are just as unique.
Compared to the 116, those are larger, but still smaller than the 16/0, I don't believe there is any part that could be swapped from the later models on this reel.
What surprised me the most, the metal gear cover and the star. If you look close at the top end of the main gear, tolerance is very tight there.
You would have a hard time trying to get those gears out of alignement, the star design would also help it when buttoned down.
Great observation Sal! The distance between the star wheel and the side plate frame when assembled would have to be measured when the reel is assembled. There is no sleeve used her, the star wheel is the actual pressure plate to the clutch stack. This brings the tolerances to a much higher level than a standard production reel. Possibly not a sustainable design in the real world; but, prototypes usually have these kind of weak links.
I feel the bridge is a custom piece, not Penn and the gear set is from an 118 not 116. Early first gen 118's did have a 12/0 bridge but that did not last too long. IMHO
That's impressive! Some have offered to buy it for $20 plus I'm willing to go $32.50 lol Glad I got to see it!
Oh by the way ,I would like to to borrow that one for the rest of my life... ::)
I think one of nessies offspring lives in a nearby lake :o I feel it may be a danger to folks so I am willing to catch it but I need a bigger reel!
Rick
I sent the pics to the "old heads" here at PENN, they all feel as do I it is not a true PENN. Very cool to see the pics, thanks for posting.
tony
QuoteInsert Quote
I sent the pics to the "old heads" here at PENN, they all feel as do I it is not a true PENN. Very cool to see the pics, thanks for posting.
Tony,
Thank you very much for taking the time to do that. That was an important piece of the puzzle.
Mike C.
Quote from: Penn on May 17, 2017, 05:55:25 PM
"old heads" here at PENN
tony
Hope none o' them "old heads" are members here, reading this. Someone check in on Tony in a week, make sure he's still there :)
Sid
Cool reel. I also live near Tom Green's shop. He has a lot of vintage stuff.
Interesting discussion, for sure. Having had all the parts in hand, I would have to point out that a Prototype is not a "true" anything...it's a prototype...one-of-a-kind...I can't believe anyone could have made this reel without the aid of the facilities, parts and manufacturing capabilities of the Penn factory. Just making those oversized metal rims for the side plates would have required tooling not available to a talented lone wolf. As Tom Greene reported, the dating of this reel was prior to the war. I'm sure they, as with all the makers, took voyages off in different directions to test the waters and push limits I'm guessing that this, like most prototypes, was an idea whose time had not come.
Yes, indeed, just all my humble opinions! :)
This is a great site...have spent time here lurking but I believe this is my first post. Thanks for the forum!
John Elder
Quote from: Drbaits on May 20, 2017, 12:42:03 AM
Interesting discussion, for sure. Having had all the parts in hand, I would have to point out that a Prototype is not a "true" anything...it's a prototype...one-of-a-kind...I can't believe anyone could have made this reel without the aid of the facilities, parts and manufacturing capabilities of the Penn factory. Just making those oversized metal rims for the side plates would have required tooling not available to a talented lone wolf. As Tom Greene reported, the dating of this reel was prior to the war. I'm sure they, as with all the makers, took voyages off in different directions to test the waters and push limits I'm guessing that this, like most prototypes, was an idea whose time had not come.
Yes, indeed, just all my humble opinions! :)
This is a great site...have spent time here lurking but I believe this is my first post. Thanks for the forum!
John Elder
Welcome aboard John, you seem very knowledgeable. The guys at ORCA could reeeely use a good guy like yourself. ;D ;D
-Ted
Quote from: Drbaits on May 20, 2017, 12:42:03 AM
Interesting discussion, for sure. Having had all the parts in hand, I would have to point out that a Prototype is not a "true" anything...it's a prototype...one-of-a-kind...I can't believe anyone could have made this reel without the aid of the facilities, parts and manufacturing capabilities of the Penn factory. Just making those oversized metal rims for the side plates would have required tooling not available to a talented lone wolf. As Tom Greene reported, the dating of this reel was prior to the war. I'm sure they, as with all the makers, took voyages off in different directions to test the waters and push limits I'm guessing that this, like most prototypes, was an idea whose time had not come.
Yes, indeed, just all my humble opinions! :)
This is a great site...have spent time here lurking but I believe this is my first post. Thanks for the forum!
John Elder
Welcome aboard John!
Pull up a chair and stay awhile.
Ted's right about ORCA.
What a great organization!
& one that sure needs a guy like you.
We would appreciate your skills and knowledge over here as well.
Good points about this reel. It certainly has the makings of a prototype manufactured at an early Penn facility.
John
Yes I want to believe this is the loch Ness and I hope it is,,,and prototypes are different animals?
Quote from: Drbaits on May 20, 2017, 12:42:03 AMI'm guessing that this, like most prototypes, was an idea whose time had not come.
Yes, indeed, just all my humble opinions! :)
This is a great site...have spent time here lurking but I believe this is my first post. Thanks for the forum!
John Elder
John! Welcome aboard! We're crossing forums in opposite directions! Anything you need, let me know.
Sid
Welcome aboard, John!
For those of you who may not know John --
He is an expert's expert when it comes to nearly anything to do with reels, old baits, vintage, and antique tackle.
When someone needs a very valuable old piece restored from the ground up -- they call John.
He has taught many of us what we know today.
He was building out "99's" before most folks knew what they were...
John is also a Master Woodworker -- we might get him to post a pic or two of a Penn reel he constructed from wood! All parts, gears, etc..
He is past President of ORCA -- has helped many new authors with their books about fishing tackle, including some we know well.
His professional resume is equally impressive as the steering head of a group at Scripp's Institute in San Diego.
His group is doing research into Feline HIV -- in order to work towards a cure for HIV/Aids in humans.
He is also a great father, husband, and a somewhat fair fisherman.
John is one of the Einstein's of fishing tackle -- although he acts just like one of us reel mechanics.
Best,
Fred
Holy Crap, Fred! Where is this guy??! I want to meet him! :) Thanks much for the kind words...I'll have to tell them to get you to do my obit!
Did you hold onto that big run of Senators I sold you an age ago?? Hope so! As I recall, there were one or two 5 o'clocks in that mix!
Small world. John's group researches a disease that I once researched in the 80's while still a vet student. I went online and read one of the more recent publications..... things have come a long way in the last 30 years.
Sid
Quote from: Drbaits on May 20, 2017, 12:42:03 AM
Interesting discussion, for sure. Having had all the parts in hand, I would have to point out that a Prototype is not a "true" anything...it's a prototype...one-of-a-kind...I can't believe anyone could have made this reel without the aid of the facilities, parts and manufacturing capabilities of the Penn factory. Just making those oversized metal rims for the side plates would have required tooling not available to a talented lone wolf. As Tom Greene reported, the dating of this reel was prior to the war. I'm sure they, as with all the makers, took voyages off in different directions to test the waters and push limits I'm guessing that this, like most prototypes, was an idea whose time had not come.
Yes, indeed, just all my humble opinions! :)
This is a great site...have spent time here lurking but I believe this is my first post. Thanks for the forum!
John Elder
Welcome John, nice to have you here.
Sal
Ohhh wow, I think the standard just got bumped up a staircase to two, never mind a notch :o
Welcome John...hoping to learn a thing or THREE....an old mentor in my business used to tell me....just sit and watch...the information will come to you.....
So I will sit and watch....hoping to glean a few tidbits of information.
Bill
QuoteHoly Crap, Fred! Where is this guy??! I want to meet him! Smiley Thanks much for the kind words...I'll have to tell them to get you to do my obit!
I was going to do a intro for you John; but, I see Fred beat me to it. Good, he did a great job. I do not know if all these members know it or not; but, if not for John Elder, there would be no Penn books or articles. John Elder was the heart of making it all happen.
Very glad to see you here. This is a very interesting group. Warmest welcomes to you.
QuoteJohn is also a Master Woodworker -- we might get him to post a pic or two of a Penn reel he constructed from wood! All parts, gears, etc..
I will not post the pictures of the wood Penn reel as I do not have them. It is a 14/0 reproduced out of woods. I do have the article written about it and I will send it to anyone interested through my personal email address. But I cannot miss an opportunity to show at least one of John Elder's Masterpieces. John wood reels are functioning. Wood is chosen for its particular properties and color to be made into a particular part. Here is a Kovalovsky. It is probably the only one on Earth.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/John%20Elder%20Wood%20reels/The%20Wood%20Kovalovsky--2_zps8kbqqbfr.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/John%20Elder%20Wood%20reels/The%20Wood%20Kovalovsky--1_zpsgdk8t9w3.jpg)
Amazing stuff coming out of this thread, I'm glad I pinned it :)
Sal
QuoteInsert Quote
Amazing stuff coming out of this thread, I'm glad I pinned it Smiley
Thank You Sal!
"True Penn" or no Prototype or back yard machinist wizard that reel is AWSOME!
Now it's time to hot rod it - double dogs, 20 stack drag set, Keta crank, handle, stainless star and a custom set of Tank tops. Maybe Tom can make a set of plates - just think where you can go with molding that reel......
Interesting to ponder how many treasures are sitting in hidden corners of tackle shops around the country.
QuoteInteresting to ponder how many treasures are sitting in hidden corners of tackle shops around the country.
Does the word ""endless"" fit here? Field finds are continuous and intriguing. That is what makes the hobby fun.
Thanks much for the great welcome, Folks! Hope we can continue to have fun with this one!
So, in trying to define what defines this reel, I'm not clear on what that drag stack and gear can tell us about how much is taken from known Penn reel parts relative to what is in John B's reel. Mike's book shows the "double drag stack" is typical of the 16/0 reel. Earlier comments imply (or did I just read into it?) that the drag diameters for the early reels were a bit different than later? So, what does the data re drag size that John B gave us tell about the size and chronology of the 20/0?
Fantastic thread - thanks all.
And welcome John, good to have you aboard.
Cheers, Justin
Welcome John!
Glad to have your expertise and knowledge to this already great site. ;)
Daron
Not sure I can add anything to what has already been said about John. When I was barely an acquaintance, John invited me into his shop and helped me restore a 14/0 EVH cradle. As a total greenhorn to all things mechanical, I learned the most basic of skills, including how to wrestle a stubborn screw without buggering up the head, and knowing when to let up with a mallet. Since then, he has helped me with many other reels, including this one. John has one major fault, to our advantage. He can't say no to helping fellow collectors in need, even if they are complete strangers.
Getting back to the Loch Ness 20/0, I am enjoying this thread, immensely, and thanks everyone for your contributions. I like the idea it might be a prototype. As such, all the parts might not match up exactly with parts from other reels (Senator's?). Manufacturers built prototypes for any of a number of reasons. Many times they were incomplete, poorly finished, not fully functional, total failures, and ended up in the parts bin or dumpster. A few might have found there way home in a lunch box. Of those, few survived the cleaning out of grandpa or grandma's garage. Heck, maybe the Loch Ness holds a clue as to why Penn never made a 20/0 Senator.
The value of this reel to me (all $21 dollars worth!), is in the fact that it hung from the ceiling of Tom's shop for so many years. One of these days, Tom will retire. His tackle shop might go the way of so many other's. Gone will be a place fishermen gathered to drink coffee, pick up bait and tackle, and bullsh*t with other fishermen. We are transitioning from an era where business was done in a neighborhood store, face to face and with a handshake, to being transacted anonymously on a computer. I have spent many hours hanging out in Tom's shop, playing with his vintage rods and reels, and listening to his stories. It will be nice to have a fixture from his shop in my collection.
Cheers,
John
QuoteThe value of this reel to me (all $21 dollars worth!), is in the fact that it hung from the ceiling of Tom's shop for so many years. One of these days, Tom will retire. His tackle shop might go the way of so many other's. Gone will be a place fishermen gathered to drink coffee, pick up bait and tackle, and bullsh*t with other fishermen. We are transitioning from an era where business was done in a neighborhood store, face to face and with a handshake, to being transacted anonymously on a computer. I have spent many hours hanging out in Tom's shop, playing with his vintage rods and reels, and listening to his stories. It will be nice to have a fixture from his shop in my collection.
No price can be placed on this item until you decide the time has come for it to change hands again. Each collector knows that he does not really own his collectibles, he is only caring for them until the next, younger collector comes along to be the next caretaker of the tackle currently in your care. I really appreciate you sharing this very special reel with us.
Is this last picture where it hung in Tom Greene's shop or is this where it hangs now?
I had no idea you also had the rod butt. That makes the rig complete.
The photo is of the rod hanging from the ceiling in Tom's shop.
QuoteInsert Quote
The photo is of the rod hanging from the ceiling in Tom's shop.
Thank you clearing that up John.
This rig has an interesting continuity of ownership. It seems to have moved from the builder (possibly) to hanging from the ceiling of a tackle shop in Pennsylvania in the 1930's [?] to a time after the war. Then some how this rig wound up in Florida, it was then sold by the widow of the Florida owner to Tom Greene. Hung in Tom Greene's Tackle Shop for approximately 25 years and now it has a new home with John B. after being cleaned / restored by John Elder. Many well known names are being attached to this rig adding to it provenance, while its true history is still a mystery.
It is now part of the World Class collection of John B. A very appropriate safe house for this special reel and rod.
I don't know if you boys remember this thread I started a while back but maybe it's not so far fetched after all. Here's the link: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=20291.0
I have asked someone that goes way back with Penn. When I say way back, I mean back to the 1940's. He says no 20/0 was ever done at the Penn plant. This tells me that whatever found larger than a 16/0 is non-Penn.
This rig, as well done as it is, is done outside of Penn.
Mike, I was just reading a quote from a well-known and respected reel historian that's applicable here:
"But, I have to never say never in the annals of Penn History, every time I do, I get burnt. I will say that I have pictures of Mike Quinn's basement and there are no 20/0 Senators there. What is there would make us drool, but not the elusive 20/0.."
I don't think there is a question that Penn ever put this reel into production, but I see nothing to suggest that they never experimented with ideas and turned out one-offs. Considering your connection worked at Penn back to the 40s, then he would have been born in the twenties and would now be well into the 90's. Considering you and I can't remember what we did thursday, I think it's a bit of a stretch to categorically reject the possibility that John B's reel was made at the Penn factory based on one man's memory. How many people were working at Penn in the 40s and before? Even if he lied about his age and started at 15 or so, it seems improbable that he would have been in a very commanding position at Penn at that time. Would he know everything going on in the development area? All I'm saying is that there is nothing here to make me bury Nessie with the Piltdown Man.
QuoteMike, I was just reading a quote from a well-known and respected reel historian that's applicable here:
"But, I have to never say never in the annals of Penn History, every time I do, I get burnt. I will say that I have pictures of Mike Quinn's basement and there are no 20/0 Senators there. What is there would make us drool, but not the elusive 20/0.."
I don't think there is a question that Penn ever put this reel into production, but I see nothing to suggest that they never experimented with ideas and turned out one-offs. Considering your connection worked at Penn back to the 40s, then he would have been born in the twenties and would now be well into the 90's. Considering you and I can't remember what we did thursday, I think it's a bit of a stretch to categorically reject the possibility that John B's reel was made at the Penn factory based on one man's memory. How many people were working at Penn in the 40s and before? Even if he lied about his age and started at 15 or so, it seems improbable that he would have been in a very commanding position at Penn at that time. Would he know everything going on in the development area? All I'm saying is that there is nothing here to make me bury Nessie with the Piltdown Man.
OK, sounds reasonable to me.
I wonder who said that "Never Say Never" quote? ;)
I am always open to possibilities. ;D
QuoteI will say that I have pictures of Mike Quinn's basement and there are no 20/0 Senators there. What is there would make us drool, but not the elusive 20/0.."
By the way, I do not know if anyone here knew or had any dealings with Mike Quinn. He was the manager of the Penn Parts Department for about 30 years when Penn was still owned by the Henze family.
Mike Quinn passed away last year. I briefly knew him; but, I knew many people that dealt with him continuously and I never met anyone that had a negative word to say about him. He was a VIP in the world of Penn and a great guy! Rest in Peace.
That is so cool. Wish I had a better word for that gem but I don't. I do have wow!
Thanks for sharing.