As I struggle with the need to master the knot , of course I'd come back here to seek advice before becoming disillusioned and disappointed 😔....
Some pictures are shown with notes....
Both of these are 80 to 80# for this post. And are taken after 40# pulling ratchet strain.
I'm starting to see signs of possible failure as separation is starting.
Is this normal? With other knots I don't see this. More in page 2.
The pointer shows the question area.
This knot failed at about 50# constant strain... the line was tied at each end. These knots held.
It is above what I would do for drag pressure, butt the knot did fail, I know something has to give, butt when compared with other connections like the tony p, and improved allbright these knots seem to stay put and then pop......
Then stick with the Tony Pena/Bob Sands and Improved Albright/Alberto/RP! Why chase the latest fads on that newfangled interweb thing? The best knot to tie is the knot you tie best... and have the most confidence in.
OR - why knot hollow braid to mono splice - NO KNOT ;D
I,m thinking this fg knot is best for casting using small to medium strength lines, butt the hype seems to say it's ok to use on anything, at first sight it is slim and compact.
Below is the visual difference in the Tony P and the improved allbrite.
And thanks for your reply on this subject, the best knots are the ones you can tie and trust......
I used to think about 50% of line strength is acceptable, then the fisherman can adjust the line used and plan accordingly.... knots can be the weak link in the chain.
Now I test the knots used with a scale and a strain..... I,m not proud to say I've had failures..💥
Keep at it. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice does!
To me the knots fg , below , looked good but under strain of course everything changes.
If the braid is not dug in and changed in color it's the problem right? Too many wraps?
Too many half hitches? The photo is under 40 # strain. It's moving. Just wondering.
yeah, um, no, let's not use this knot anymore. a uni-to-uni is at least 80%. my modified tony pena is also at least that good. properly tied, the fg knot is better, but the catch is that it has to be properly tied. hell, i even gave up on it. i'm not going to recommend a knot that has me seeing double after a couple of tries!!!! ;D
I agree with all the comments made thus far, particularly Mark's maxim, "The best knot to tie is the knot you tie best..."
I personally really like the FG but, as Alan notes, "...the catch is that it has to be properly tied."
When done right, they're a great, strong connection. I've never had a failure and push mine pretty hard.
I just spent a week pushing 20kg (40+lb) of drag on three different rigs and the only thing that broke was a rod.
Lee pointed this out a while back - pre-stressing is the key.
I do a 30-plait weave, followed by eight alternating half-hitches.
Then pre-stress the knot with as much force as possible - if it's PE10 and 200lb leader, this is a lot!
The weave must change colour (ie get a slightly wet look).
Once that happens, I trim the leader and add another eight alternating half hitches, and close it off with a three-turn rizzuto finish.
It's not for everyone, for sure, but - to Mark's point - it's the knot I tie best and it's (touching wood) been absolutely failsafe to date.
Here's how mine look (after being heavily stressed), if of interest:
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/3590_13_02_21_7_25_25_34494110.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/3590_13_02_21_7_25_24_344932064.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/3590_13_02_21_7_26_40_344951020.jpeg)
All the best, Justin
Quote from: redsetta on February 13, 2021, 07:44:19 AM
I do a 30-plait weave, followed by eight alternating half-hitches.
Non-alternating half hitches will pack more tightly.
Man Justin, you sure tie purdy knots :).
Gary: just make em look like Justin's. ;D
But seriously, the thing that makes this knot tricky is that there is no bend in the mono. It is not really a knot in the classical sense, more like lashing the braid to the mono. Technique throughout the lashing process is critical.
I congratulated myself on finally getting good ties at the bench, but when casting the FG over time, many good looking ties would start to unravel over the end of the mono. I think that bench testing is not enough to gain confidence with your ties of this knot. You have to put some miles on it, especially if you cast it through the rod guides.
Gary's looks to me like the wraps were not packed closely, so when tightened, some had to extend. I predict nothing butt heartache if these were fished for awhile...
I agree with Mark. I gave up on the FG. I do the Alberto now, tied with method used in the RP video (quick yank). My fishing life is more stress free :) The Alberto works well on a variety of line combos, is extremely fast to tie, and is plenty strong on my ties (about 80% of listed braid strength). I usually don't want a close to 100% knot here for the fishing I do. It seems to me that braid strength is not very uniform, and if I break off, I don't want to leave a bunch of braid in the water.
-J
I like this knot I, use it a lot, and I too have "mist-ties", I get lost when making 22 weave wraps and even sometimes go the wrong direction. Guess I really am a rebel at heart. But I'll keep practicing it keep using it on my salmon and rock fish setups. Last season I had several 30 and 40 lb leaders bitten off and lost a hook, but I tie stationary tandem barbels hooks and didn't lose any hooked fish because if one don't get them the other one will. Keeping those weaves tight and, uhem running in the proper direction is important when it's right it will hold. I never lost a rig or a fish to a failed FG knot. I have however forgotten to clip my snap swivel to the leader and simply tossed my fire and flasher into the ocean, only to watch slowly fade away into the deep. So I make sure I inspect each of my knots after completing it and I also stress it to far more than any rockfish or Salmon is going to ever put on the line, if it's going to fail, I have found it does so very quickly, so If I can stress it and it and it holds, and it looks clean and the weaves are even. I will fish it.
OK, = after digesting this info and advise give me the opportunity to keep at it. at least try a few more ties at the same knot, before shi-canning the fg for a while.... Heck I should be fishing by now.... ???
Other knots are being usedm and tested for connecting the at first skeptical braied to the once invisible Mono...... ;)
How are you tying it, wraps-hitches around braid AND mono-hitches around braid only-finish knot - and at which points are you pre-stressing the knot?
If the half hitches start falling off the tag end then they weren't pulled down tight enough, or the wraps weren't pre-stressed, or the wraps were too loose.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/14624_21_02_21_6_48_57.jpeg)
PE8 braid to 150lb mono. 28 wraps, then 1 half hitch around braid and mono cinched down hard, then stress the knot, 3 more alternating half hitches around braid and mono, stress the knot again, 4 alternating wraps around braid only, 4-turn Rissuto finish, then clip the mono.
Pulled it as hard as I could with bare hands and it didn't move ???
As mentioned.... tie the knot that works well for you.
Looking really closely at your "pink" version of the knot - where is the "standing part" coming from? There is loose braid in your knot somewhere; either your wraps aren't under enough tension or you're not cinching down the half-hitches, I would wager a little of column A and a little of column B?
Thanks for caring and sharing , Mr. Boon. I,m not sure which pink line picture your referring to?
You advised to"4 alternating wraps around braid only," This i have not tried yet..... Ive been stuck on wraps continuing to try to make the knot smooth in the end of the braid. I,d rather the knot was strong firstly, going thru the guides is a seperate issue for conversation. ;)
There are several other knots for connecting the mono to braid and they all have some merit it seems. I,m here to hear! ;D
The FG is one I have used & has been stated it has to be cinched down tight where it goes almost clear. Prior to cinching down it needs to be wet. It's really much simpler than some are making it. I posted a link sometime ago of a very simple way to tie it. I will say I test all of my knots with scales, prior to ever making use of them tied off on a tree & after soaking line & knot in water for an hour or more.
My experience is some knots test much higher dry than others. I am very anal in some respects when it comes to my fishing. I kept two 5 gallon buckets of river water specifically for trying different knots. Simply because river water is different from tap water & made a difference in the knots failure rate... I think ;)
Alan brought up testing his knots break strength. Someone questioned why ? Questioning something is most always a good thing. For me I'm after record. I have been within oz. several times in 4 different states. Numerous times this would not have been possible under the conditions I was fishing had I not been able to push the line used & knot to it's known tested, average limit. Ande Monster for me had the most consistent average break point through out it's different sizes.
My testing has revealed to me Ande Monster makes as good a leader as some that are sold as such. Has great knot strength. It's abrasion resistance can be better than some leader. Ande Monster is not a line I use exclusively. But when called upon it has become one I trust more than any other when used in harsh settings. It's diameter is not much more than Big Game. However there is the associated memory issues that go with lines like this.
All my reels star drags, 2 speeds etc. have the lever & star marked so I know what the drag is from a cold start. I also mark the spool so as line diminishes I know how much drag I have after a long cast or with fish pulling line. This also allows me to drift back to the same exact spot as prior . I do my best to make sure that if I lose a fish it's not because of the line, knot or reel failure. I want lite weight rods that dont cry or break when fished passed there rated capacity. After 50 + years of chasing the fish I love on the river this is what has worked best for me.
I am confident if the fish I'm after is there... One, he's never met any one like me ;) Two, he's coming to bank or boat at some point!! May not be today or tomorrow. But at some point HE'S COMING OUT while attached to my hook. This stuff keeps me up at night. It makes my heart rate change just thinking about it. It effects me to my very core.
The knot used may in fact be the weakest link in our combo of choice. It does knot nor should it " EVER " be an issue with losing fish... Jeff
The Fg.......
Thanks for recent information, I haven't given up yet on the knot, butt others may have better luck.
Also the last statement about the wetting the line by soaking in a bucket is affordable as it rains a bunch. It also confirmed my experience about science in this matter as I have a friend that suggested that the true test can only be made with the wet line to duplicate what is actually happening in the water.
Now do I use the same saltwater and bring it in the house 🏠? Butt this fella is an expert in everything and won't show or help me...... and won't join this forum as we have either......?
Butt there are several other knots that could be used. I also don't want fish failure.....
The pointer shows the area where most of my sc, fg, and now pr knots show separation following the strain. The knots move some in the strain. Almost always. This one is pretty....... nice.👍
The short Albright is good, easy, and shows some promise.
The bobbin knot is no harder to tie than the fg butt takes a tool, not a big deal, I guess it's called the pr knot?
I've had some surprises in the testing department as some knots will seem nearly to Max in the strain ,and using a ratcheting puller when left for a half hour, kapok. The failure occurred. 😾
Maybe my expert friend knows why? 🤔
Quote from: gstours on February 22, 2021, 05:53:40 PM
The bobbin knot is no harder to tie than the fg butt takes a tool, not a big deal, I guess it's called the pr knot?
I've had some surprises in the testing department as some knots will seem nearly to Max in the strain ,and using a ratcheting puller when left for a half hour, kapok. The failure occurred. 😾
Maybe my expert friend knows why? 🤔
I'm no expert, in fact I was just recently happy to be able to pull it off, but like you say the PR knot is easy with the tool, maybe easier.
This is the vid that gave me the basics of getting the PR to work, I've added some hitches above it to smooth it out over the guides. No fails so far on my SPJ trips, and it's going over micro guides on a slow pitch jigging rod.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szEiqDiWZPs
Quote from: gstours on February 22, 2021, 05:41:21 PM
The Fg.......
Thanks for recent information, I haven't given up yet on the knot, butt others may have better luck.
Also the last statement about the wetting the line by soaking in a bucket is affordable as it rains a bunch. It also confirmed my experience about science in this matter as I have a friend that suggested that the true test can only be made with the wet line to duplicate what is actually happening in the water.
Now do I use the same saltwater and bring it in the house 🏠?
The pointer shows the area where most of my sc, fg, and now pr knots show separation following the strain. The knots move some in the strain. Almost always. This one is pretty....... nice.👍
Just test wet you'll be fine. I get carried away :o
Now there is glue that is used on knots that can be a benefit in helping with knots fraying from passing through the guides when casting. however I dont wish to pack any more crap with me when fishing. It can get ridiculous.
What I do is use a long enough top shot or a short leader so my braid to mono knot never passes through the guides UNLESS A FISH DOES IT while using a longer top shot vs short leader.
Just an observation.... please dont let your friends expertness wear to much on your relationship. Life long fishing friends take work & are to be cherished for what they are... Jeff
Quote from: gstours on February 22, 2021, 05:53:40 PM
The bobbin knot is no harder to tie than the fg butt takes a tool, not a big deal, I guess it's called the pr knot?
I've had some surprises in the testing department as some knots will seem nearly to Max in the strain ,and using a ratcheting puller when left for a half hour, kapok. The failure occurred. 😾
Maybe my expert friend knows why? 🤔
Not an expert, but I can pretend on the Internet :)
I think you are seeing the effect of creep, a common problem with plastics under stress. When you stretch a plastic within it's elasticity limits and release it, It will mostly return to the original shape, but some of the shape change is permanent (deformation). This deformation occurs as a function of both load and time. How long you are pulling matters too, just not how hard.
I would guess that a knot like the Pena, which has sharp bends with the braid crossing might be more quickly damaged by creep, as the load is very concentrated, causing the mono bends to creep, especially around the braid.
Also a reminder that different knots have different lifespans under load, especially with something as "creepy" as mono.
The come-along test is a good idea. Especially after a soak.
Jurelometer is wise - I have two thoughts to throw into the stew:
1 - Stretch is going to be a factor. Hopefully as The Boss builds his knot tester, maybe also include a scale to measure stretch - when knot strength (the scale) is not diminishing but the length from "A to B" is increasing? When are we pushing the limits of line as opposed to the connection.
2. Knot glues. I use them, but in NO way, think they increase the strength of the knot. If the connection is good, it's good, if it's not then anything you add to it is only a band aid. I use the UV coatings as a "hard shell finish" over the knot. Something to help it though the guides and provide smooth transfer and help prevent the knot from being abraided, and kind of give it a "hard shell finish". Just my $.02 - john
Quote from: Brewcrafter on February 23, 2021, 01:38:47 AM
Jurelometer is wise - I have two thoughts to throw into the stew:
1 - Stretch is going to be a factor. Hopefully as The Boss builds his knot tester, maybe also include a scale to measure stretch - when knot strength (the scale) is not diminishing but the length from "A to B" is increasing? When are we pushing the limits of line as opposed to the connection.
2. Knot glues. I use them, but in NO way, think they increase the strength of the knot. If the connection is good, it's good, if it's not then anything you add to it is only a band aid. I use the UV coatings as a "hard shell finish" over the knot. Something to help it though the guides and provide smooth transfer and help prevent the knot from being abraided, and kind of give it a "hard shell finish". Just my $.02 - john
Not so much wise as opinionated :)
1. I don't see how much stretch matters as long as you are measuring breaking strength. All we care about in the end is if the line or knot breaks, and if stretch is a contributor, we will pick it up in the breakage measurement.
Testing how much time under load that it took to weaken a long lived knot (like a braid to mono splice), would seem to be a very useful thing to know for those tuna guys. Test a few to breakage, hold a few under big tuna load (30 lb or whatever) for a couple hours, and then test to breakage, and so on.
2. The problems with CA glue on knots is that CA glue rapidly loses adhesive strength when exposed to water, does not adhere to nylon well, and does not adhere to polyethylene at all.
So what you are actually doing by gluing a knot is wedging chucks of whatever the filler is in the glue into any gaps in between the lines and fibers. This is making the knot more rigid, which might help it
hold by jamming up the works, or might make it weaker by keeping coils from cinching, or a bit of both. Over (not much) time as the lines stretch and the knot gets wet, the chunks of solidified glue are going to break off from each other and start falling out.
There are some high tech CA blends that will last longer in a wet environment, but they are more of a pain to manage in terms of storage, shelf life, or application. Some are only available in reliable condition from industrial suppliers. And then you still are just delaying the inevitable a bit. I would be VERY surprised if any of the CA glues sold as "fishing knot glue" was the good stuff. My bet would be on the more stable general purpose supermarket stuff.
So I agree with you. The way I see it, if you tie a good knot, you do not need to glue it. If you glue it, you don't know what the glues is doing and how long it will last. Last time I trashed gluing knots- the pro glue crowd gave me a rough time :)
Hard coatings can help keep weeds off the knot and pass through guides better, but if the line is soft (like braid), the line can hinge and fray at the edge of the glob, especially when casting. Us fly guys use a soft glue like aquaseal or pliobond for coating nail knots on the fly lines. But those have (or used to have) some nasty solvents that may weaken regular braid or mono. There are soft UV urethane resins that I use for fly tying. I have meant to try as a knot coating, but haven't yet.
UV resin will only cure where the light can reach. If any gets inside the braid, these spots will stay liquefied, and the urethane will act more like a lubricant than a glue.
Thanks Dave! Appreciate the insight! I do need a little bit of direction in the area of adhesives however. I am familiar with CA - it is the super adhesive that is remarkably good at instantly bonding skin but has it's limitations in the "real world" when you want to bond something that is not skin. To be honest the adhesive I use for knots I have no idea what it is; only that it cures with UV, and it also gets very exothermic as it's curing. As I was first playing with it and getting used to it I learned it begins to set almost immediately in direct sunlight, almost to the point that as you are dispensing the adhesive it immediately becomes small hard beads that will not adhere to anything. But when away from UV, it maintains its watery state, and is not particularly "sticky" until exposed to UV. I suspect the compounds are similar to when I was at the pediatric dentist with my kids, and they would do fillings and then use a UV light to set them. - john
Quote from: jurelometer on February 23, 2021, 03:48:11 AM
...UV resin will only cure where the light can reach. If any gets inside the braid, these spots will stay liquefied, and the urethane will act more like a lubricant than a glue.
was thinking along those lines... would UV Wader Repair be thicker than knot glue
& more likely to encase the knot, rather than penetrate beyond sunlight & remain liquid?
Quote from: Brewcrafter on February 23, 2021, 06:04:21 AM
Thanks Dave! Appreciate the insight! I do need a little bit of direction in the area of adhesives however. I am familiar with CA - it is the super adhesive that is remarkably good at instantly bonding skin but has it's limitations in the "real world" when you want to bond something that is not skin. To be honest the adhesive I use for knots I have no idea what it is; only that it cures with UV, and it also gets very exothermic as it's curing. As I was first playing with it and getting used to it I learned it begins to set almost immediately in direct sunlight, almost to the point that as you are dispensing the adhesive it immediately becomes small hard beads that will not adhere to anything. But when away from UV, it maintains its watery state, and is not particularly "sticky" until exposed to UV. I suspect the compounds are similar to when I was at the pediatric dentist with my kids, and they would do fillings and then use a UV light to set them. - john
I heard the same thing. From what I read, the first UV coatings for fly tying came from somebody's dental connection. Since anything that blocks UV light prevents curing, I hesitate to call the stuff an adhesive. It can only bond what light can reach. I see videos from fly tiers who should know better trying to glue flies with the stuff.
The nice thing about urethane UV coatings is that most are very resistant to UV degradation/yellowing. The newer products are better, and most of the first wave products are not around any more.
The UV knot coating that I am familar with is Loon's Knot Sense. Not bad stuff, but I don't have a use for it. In addition to being too hard, I think that it turns nail knots (using mono) into hard sleeves that loose their grip over time as the fly line stretches and loses some diameter.
YMMV
There are a ton of different CA adhesives - that work on a variety of materials, but like all the fancy stuff, it has to be stored, prepped and applied correctly.
Quote from: philaroman on February 23, 2021, 06:48:09 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on February 23, 2021, 03:48:11 AM
...UV resin will only cure where the light can reach. If any gets inside the braid, these spots will stay liquefied, and the urethane will act more like a lubricant than a glue.
was thinking along those lines... would UV Wader Repair be thicker than knot glue
& more likely to encase the knot, rather than penetrate beyond sunlight & remain liquid?
I guess, but it would just be a matter of degree. I would guess that a 100% mono knot allows enough UV light to fire off a full cure, but a dyed fiber acts like a shield. Same reason why you have to swirl the water with a UV sterilizer pen. The UV light can miss bacteria or virus in the shadowss of micro particles.
Some amount of gel is going to wick into the gaps and not be cured. Dunno if it will matter or not, probably depends on the knot.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas 💡 in the Fg knot topic. Like people have said. Practice makes perfect..... some ideas that I have used, And it has helped, R.
In holding the line on a bench or table a stand or post for each end to hold the line is helpful.
A constant strain is Better than just pinch and hold if you can. A 130gram weight hanging on the main line keeps a tite wrap. The post s also help you make the half hitches quiet easy......
One thing i see the most in this thread is the mono tag is cut to early . the other thing i see is some crisis cross thing going on before the half hitches " naked mono "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjaj-LM_L0Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPsMBGsalMQ
I posted this in the wrong thread a while back, meaning to post it here:
"Why not just finish with a 6 to 8 turn Uni, unwrapping the loop to form pretty much a nail knot. This is how I finish biminis."
The Rizzuto finish shown in the video is same as what I learned as the "Venezuelan finish" to a bimini twist. I would much prefer to finish either the Bimini or FG knot with this than a bunch of half hitches. (The Venezuelan finish to the bimini should have one half hitch between the twists and the finish knot.)
On occasion, when tying a slim beauty or Tony Pena knot, I will pass the braid back through the stop knot before tightening it down. Then when everything is tight, tie one of these finishes on the other side of the stop knot. In this case, it does not function as a "lock knot" but more as a ramp to help the stop knot pass the guides more easily.
Here is another knot for you:
New 2020 SC Knot. Super easier than FG knot!!!
https://youtu.be/p2lhWZJF860
Quote from: SteveL on March 02, 2021, 03:17:28 AM
Here is another knot for you:
New 2020 SC Knot. Super easier than FG knot!!!
Last year's knot. Too bad it is 2021 ;D
It will get some points with Gary. He likes lots of wraps. :) :) :)
Basically an up/down wrap with some locking half hitches. All of the down wraps lie on top of the up wraps. Most versions melt a knob on the mono to keep the braid from sliding off. If it tests well for you than go for it, but does not look like a likely candidate to me. As much as I distrust the FG, it has better potential to deform the mono, which is what gives it it's grip.
Hey Gary: Why not test an Alberto with under 10 wraps?
-J