A new member has asked me to work on his 16/0
(http://i.imgur.com/nJP6a9b.jpg)
He has requested the works and the double dogs. I wasn't crazy about doing the double dogs on the 16/0, I don't mind the 14/0's, but the 16/0 are hard to come by.
Still, I decided to do it.
Parts for the upgrade are on the right side of the wrench
(http://i.imgur.com/mI39wpE.jpg)
I also decided to repack the bearings with fresh grease
(http://i.imgur.com/mRdZuaM.jpg)
the old grease squeezes right out with very little effort, using these bearing packers from Alan
(http://i.imgur.com/T9eq9Ay.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/VEMVz5b.jpg)
and here are the double dogs
(http://i.imgur.com/DOCkx8r.jpg)
the grinded 16/0 plate for the second dog
(http://i.imgur.com/AKtgQf1.jpg)
the bridge set in place
(http://i.imgur.com/8pbwEbC.jpg)
and a look at the dogs from the front side
(http://i.imgur.com/KFFo78E.jpg)
gear and custom insert going in
(http://i.imgur.com/SlbadRD.jpg)
and setting in the custom washers
(http://i.imgur.com/fXETxbi.jpg)
The best layout on these reels is to set 3 keyed washers at the very top of the last carbon fiber washer, followed by the thick 3mm washer on top.
Adam should offer (2) 3mm washers for the 14/0 and 16/0, unless he could come up with a 6mm washer.
By the way Adam, a few of the washers needed to be filed, they're too tight. I'm not sure you're aware of this already. Tight washers won't work properly, they need to slide up and down with no force
I then placed the heat shield on top
(http://i.imgur.com/FMQHcbi.jpg)
a delrin washer of the same size as the tension spring
(http://i.imgur.com/JuRBbxJ.jpg)
tension spring on top of it and the star
(http://i.imgur.com/Q11Vs2B.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/j58H6Li.jpg)
here is the finished reel
(http://i.imgur.com/PlMVESm.jpg)
loaded it up with 600yds of 130# dacron for testing
(http://i.imgur.com/qw1CaC9.jpg)
starting from 10lbs, moving one point on the star added 10 additional pounds at a time, it was pretty consistant up to 40lbs, but then jumped higher from there.
I was only able to pull 68lbs and it wasn't easy. This was done by pulling on the reel while the line was tied with the scale
getting it to 68lbs, I was able to move the star using one finger, this was pretty amazing to me.
I believe the large delrin washer on top of the heat shield is helping with this.
Drags feel amazing on this reel, the shark tank is up to the task!
For the newer members that are interested in some of the parts used for this upgrade, here is where you could get them from:
Delrin crank and bearing packer................................Reels, Parts and Tools from Alan Tani
SS arm and drag kit insert.......................................Motive Fabrication
SS dogs ................................................................Keta's Kustom Parts by Lee Putnam
SS gear sleeve........................................................Custom Parts by Tom Hryniuk
Enjoy!
Sal
I don't know that there is a rod that wouldn't shatter under that much drag! Holy smokes! I can only imagine what the numbers will be with a full spool. Talk about needing a backiotimy.
That is a beautiful reel. Nice job Sal. The owner must be proud.
Ron
Very nice internal work Sal! Looks great outside too!
......Lou
Must be fun at that scale. Someday! Those dogs are huge, like the rest I guess!
Andy
Wow, Sal, Wow! Awsome!
She looks ready fer the task...
Otto and his best engineers would be very proud of you Sal. Cheers !!
Holy cow Sal...you've raised the bar again...not sure it gets much higher ;)
68lbs...Anyone want to arm wrestle Sal. We will give odds. ;D Dominick
Looking good Sal!
I remember (not too long ago) when this stuff was just a dream. It is great to see it become a reality. The double dogs turned out great, and those extra teeth are nice.
I have done my larger reels with 2 fitted SS washers, and a thicker delron on top before the heat shield and wavy spring washer. I have ideas about using 2 cupped/bellevilles from an International to flatten out the uppermost drag curve a bit. I can't wait to get the opportunity to test these big boys on a good fish someday.
Has anyone provided reports on reel world performance on spool-emptying specimens in the 'real world' on these upgraded 'big boy' Senators yet?
Nice work!
John
Sal,
This winch looks like you could bolt it to the front bumper of a Jeep!
I am still Tiny Grasshoppa.
Excellent work my Man! ;)
Thanks guys!
The reel was in pretty rough shape on the inside, I used half of roll of paper towels before soaking the parts.
Most of the screws were frozen, I got lucky none snapped.
One on the left plate wouldn't budge, so I let it go.
Dominick, don't take any bets on me, I'm all beat up :-\.
John, I wouldn't change the tension spring on these, I believe it's one of the best design. Of course the delrin waser helped it :)
The reel start very soft, I actually get no movement with the spool when the star is backed all the way.
The drags feel great to me, up to 40lbs takes very little effort pulling on the reel.
Pulling 40lbs of force with this reel feels like riding a cadillac, doing the same on some others, feel as riding a dump truck. :)
This reel still had more to give, but I didn't want to go there.
I'm hoping he gives it a good workout, he should have no problems with anything that wants to challenge him.
Sal
Sweet 16, and ready for anything.
WOW!! That reel is massive! I've held a few 9/0's and one 12/0, but I've never had a 16 close enough to hold it. With the work you did on it it's ready for anything the ocean can throw at it.
Another Sal 16/0.
I'm backed up with charter reels so I sent Sal a 14/0 to do. I included extra keyed insert washers for the same reason. I also use a Delrin washer under the star on most all reels now.
Really well done and thought out, Sal.
Funny thing is -- with those components, double dogs, SS parts, greased super drag stack with custom insert, delrin, crank, and more -- that reel is twice as capable as the stocker 16/0 in Jaws.
Fantastic work!
Best,
Fred
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 30, 2016, 12:11:50 PM
Thanks guys!
The reel was in pretty rough shape on the inside, I used half of roll of paper towels before soaking the parts.
Most of the screws were frozen, I got lucky none snapped.
One on the left plate wouldn't budge, so I let it go.
Dominick, don't take any bets on me, I'm all beat up :-\.
John, I wouldn't change the tension spring on these, I believe it's one of the best design. Of course the delrin waser helped it :)
The reel start very soft, I actually get no movement with the spool when the star is backed all the way.
The drags feel great to me, up to 40lbs takes very little effort pulling on the reel.
Pulling 40lbs of force with this reel feels like riding a cadillac, doing the same on some others, feel as riding a dump truck. :)
This reel still had more to give, but I didn't want to go there.
I'm hoping he gives it a good workout, he should have no problems with anything that wants to challenge him.
Sal
,,wow ,,,,that guy must be reel happy awesome work sal he going to need a bigger boat
It's on the rod now
I was told this maybe a penn customer made rod not sure
The wrappings look like a Penn reel. I have some older Penn chair rods with the same wrappings.
Thanks I hope it is
Wow! the perfect match for the Shark Tank! Benny, could you measure the width of that tip for me? just curious.
Thank!
Sal
Good stuff Sal, the new member put that reel in the right hands, well done, cheers donnyboat
I got this rod last year for my 9/0 when it came in the mail it was 4 time bigger than I imagined but now thanks to ,,,sal,,, everything just works out,, thanks sal 8)
That thing is massive, I had a good idea it would be around 2 inches, I have never seen anything like that.
Thanks for sharing it with us Benny.
This is an amazing combo, first time to me that a 16/0 mounted on a rod appears to be a 4/0. ;D
This is good stuff!
Sal
That's a full 'beast mode' set-up - sensational!
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers, Justin
Breathtaking combo!
A word comes to mind, POWERFUL.
Thanks guys
Benni, I will put this here, I didn't want to ruin your "Luck" posts :)
I got a chance to open the reel and as I speculated, the ears on the washers failed.
I know that Adam as mentioned getting better material for those washers, I actually have a set coming from him, but taking everything in consideration, I'm thinking the failed washers might not be the only problem here.
(https://i.imgur.com/AU0RNDG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/q9PcD8Z.jpg)
on the left I'm showing the stock washers, those are 50% larger
(https://i.imgur.com/QI8pFBB.jpg)
Here is my take on this:
I know that Penn increased the size of the gears and drag washers as the reels grt larger... and it makes sense to me.
Here we have the spool and frame larger by 1" and the gears kept the same. I'm not saying the new frame and spool is the problem, but they are probably helping with the additional stress on the drags.
Of course the new material for the washers might fix the issue, but I would still like to hear Adam's opinion.
Benni, for now I will set up the reel with these and see how it goes:
https://www.mysticparts.com/6-117SP-Kit-Drag-Washer-Kit-HT-1008482-with-Metals-14-pcs-P30378.aspx
Upgrading and testing is what we do here, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
I haven't heard of any other failing yet, so you might be the only lucky one Benni :)
If that's the case, the new material should take care of the problem.
Give me some time to order parts, and I'll send it back.
You did a good job on the heat shield as well, I don't blame you, you were probably trying so hard to stop that monster :).
Mystic reel parts is not showing that particular part, I could probably straighten it out, or see if I have one.
Sal
Sal, thanks for showing this... Jeff
Sal, I have you covered on a set of replacement cf washers. That's pretty impressive. Even with the sub-par quality I had seen on some of the batches of cf material, this kind of failure took a (or many) pretty solid fish.
Not a problem Jeff.
Thank you Adam...I didn't expect any less from you.
Sal
A set of drag washers Adam gave me to use in the 6/0 Daron gave me did the same thing. I never mentioned it because Adam & you both said there was the possibility of it.
But good Gawd when they worked they where as slickery smooth as greased glass, with great start up, very little if any build up until that drag started to work. My drag was set at 24 lbs. & my drag scales are dead on
right. The material in these washers appears to be the same but hard to tell from pic... Jeff
I would like to hear the story on the failure, what were the circumstances, maybe that insert kit of Adams is just to much horsepower on that big reel for the design of the cf washers?
Quote from: Rivverrat on September 02, 2018, 03:35:32 AM
A set of drag washers Adam gave me to use in the 6/0 Daron gave me did the same thing. I never mentioned it because Adam & you both said there was the possibility of it.
But good Gawd when they worked they where as slickery smooth as greased glass, with great start up, very little if any build up until that drag started to work. My drag was set at 24 lbs. & my drag scales are dead on
right. The material in these washers appears to be the same but hard to tell from pic... Jeff
Correct me if Im wrong, but didnt I sent you a kit with standard washers and also a set of prototype washers to test out too?
Those prototype washers were great, until they failed. Which happened too often, and usually at the worse time. You will not be seeing any of those, and I learned a very expensive lesson...
Yes Adam you are correct. You explained this all very clearly to me prior to sending them out. For any that dont know I want to be very clear that Adam was not selling these washers I had. They were as Adam stated a prototype & Adam was very honest in stating any negative findings prior to sending them to me. He asked that I try them out & was nice enough to send out a set along with a regular set for me to use in his drag insert kit.
Sorry about that Adam I did not mean in any way to give the wrong impression. I was speaking from the knowledge you & Sal would know what I was talking about. But being a bit of an air head I didnt think about being clear for others sake... Jeff
Quote from: David Hall on September 02, 2018, 03:37:01 AM
I would like to hear the story on the failure, what were the circumstances, maybe that insert kit of Adams is just to much horsepower on that big reel for the design of the cf washers?
fish #2 broke another rod holder and was right under the boat and the captain said tighten up the drag and pull him up ??? The fish didn't like that and decided to go back to the wreck,,,,he was a monster :o and the drag washers got hot,,,but no problems with the 9/0 even though they said I was shooting a elephant with a bb gun I got a small 1 ;D
Quote from: Rivverrat on September 02, 2018, 04:19:09 AM
Yes Adam you are correct. You explained this all very clearly to me prior to sending them out. For any that dont know I want to be very clear that Adam was not selling these washers I had. They were as Adam stated a prototype & Adam was very honest in stating any negative findings prior to sending them to me. He asked that I try them out & was nice enough to send out a set along with a regular set for me to use in his drag insert kit.
Sorry about that Adam I did not mean in any way to give the wrong impression. I was speaking from the knowledge you & Sal would know what I was talking about. But being a bit of an air head I didnt think about being clear for others sake... Jeff
Its all good, I just want to be clear. I like feedback, even if its negative. Those prototype washers were great at light drags. But they just couldnt hold up to heavy pressure. Most people wont every see those, and Im hoping the sets I did sent out for testing end up in the trash bin. Testing is important, and failures teach as much, if not more, than successes.
Were the prototype ones the harder material that was full on?
I never used any of those.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on September 02, 2018, 08:49:14 PM
Were the prototype ones the harder material that was full on?
I never used any of those.
This is the ones we are talking about. The coarse weave was breaking apart at high loads.
Why dont you sandwich a thin metal washer in between two carbon washers, That should give you more of a rigid dr
ag washer. You may have to use less washers but make it a whole lot stronger.
Mike
Quote from: mikeysm on September 03, 2018, 01:00:38 AM
Why dont you sandwich a thin metal washer in between two carbon washers, That should give you more of a rigid dr
ag washer. You may have to use less washers but make it a whole lot stronger.
Mike
My guess is that it would reduce the drag pressure. Backing off on the star wheel would have the same effect. Rudy
Would making drag washers in the shape of gear sleeve teeth would be an improvement?
I think Adam said it is material failure not the shape of the CF washer.
Yes it's a material failure. Kudos to Adam for trying this. I hope he doesn't stop.
There are all kinds of variables when dealing with carbon fiber. The weave which I think in this case was one issue but you also have different resins. Over all strength or having to shore up carbon fiber is not the issue. All carbon fiber is not equal. It's finding the right weave, thread size, count & mix of resins to work together in the environment you want. The environment of the drag in our reels is a wide spectrum. Starts cold & can get pretty hot, quick.
If it was easy every one would do it. Takes money & time. Something that can be hard recouping. But each one of Adam's attempts have been improvements.
This is an area where a single minded, driven individual could come up with something that could impact the industry with out the aid of high tech. Just by possibly making use of whats already out there & putting all the different pieces together. If it was easy it'd already be done... Jeff
Quote from: Three se7ens on September 02, 2018, 09:53:58 PM
Quote from: Shark Hunter on September 02, 2018, 08:49:14 PM
Were the prototype ones the harder material that was full on?
I never used any of those.
This is the ones we are talking about. The coarse weave was breaking apart at high loads.
You are only one man,
Your efforts are appreciated.
I know you work hard to provide us the best products.
Sometimes, there is a learning curve.
You stand by your parts and I am a customer for life.
Others should follow your example. ;)
I'm not sure why we are questioning Adam, he was never in question, not by me anyway and I'm the guy that started this.
Let's recap.
Benni went on a fishing expedition and his 20/0 lost drag during a battle.
I opened the reel up and d found that the ears on the washers shredded.
Let me point out that the 9/0 and the 1/0 he used to bring the fish to the boat were also serviced by me.
The washers in those were from the same vendor and as you could see they got the job done.
As of now, we have no idea what the " freight train" tugging on that line was, maybe it wasn't meant to be stopped, no matter what drags were used.
Even though I did not purchase the 20/0 kit, I did have concerns on the small foot on the frame and contacted Randy when they first came out.
Randy assured me that Tiburon and himself where pretty confident it would hold.
Randy was correct! after so much stress on that frame, everything still looks good.
I have tested a few washers for Adam in the past, his goal is to put out the best drag washers he can, this is why he's already working on better material.
Sal
I bought a 16/0 insert kit from Adam awhile back for my 20/0. Are the drag washers that came with the inserts affected with this problem.
Mike
The captain did show me the mark on the fish finder,,,it looked like the ones on wicked tuna ;) and I did get to fight 2 big ones on the 9/0 it did great ;) got them up and the shark rigs broke,,,the captain really liked the 1/0 and got a nice snook on it :D uncle sal built the best reels for me with the best parts,,,,but I might have hooked a Russian sub ;D
Quote from: mikeysm on September 03, 2018, 04:14:20 PM
I bought a 16/0 insert kit from Adam awhile back for my 20/0. Are the drag washers that came with the inserts affected with this problem.
Mike
You should be fine, this wasnt a common problem. But if it does happen to yours(or anybody's), Ill replace them.
My thought is a lot things can break in a lot of reels when exposed to that much force.
The way to deal with it since you already sold it is to come up with a solution and fix it. This way it doesn't leave the customer with out it. I epoxy my inserts in place. That leaves me in a situation that is stressful. Since I intend to use this for shark fishing I need to know.
Mike
While I would like to know more about how you are setting your drag insert in place with epoxy... Just to be sure Im understanding....
I think all that needs to be said on this other stuff is every one here that makes & sells are good honest people.
Mistakes will be made. Adam did not in any way make a mistake here.
Any one here selling, I believe will work things out in a positive manner for both. This has been my experience & that of others. If it should happen discuss it in a pm.
Im bad about doing this myself. I dont want clutter this thread of Sal's any more than it is...
Quote from: Rivverrat on September 04, 2018, 03:22:21 PM
While I would like to know more about how you are setting your drag insert in place with epoxy... Just to be sure Im understanding....
I think all that needs to be said on this other stuff is every one here that makes & sells are good honest people.
Mistakes will be made. Adam did not in any way make a mistake here.
Any one here selling, I believe will work things out in a positive manner for both. This has been my experience & that of others. If it should happen discuss it in a pm.
Im bad about doing this myself. I dont want clutter this thread of Sal's any more than it is...
Well said.
Just like I said I used epoxy to make sure it doesn't try to work it's way out of the gear. My concern it being on a beach who knows where and have something happen. At that point it becomes a problem. What I seen in the picture concerns me and I want to make sure the problem is not still happening. If so I will toss the insert before I go any further.
Just send Adam a PM. I have every confidence he will take care of any concerns you may have. Just trying to help with a suggestion... Jeff
I decided not to use the insert. Just taking to much of a chance.
Mike
Quote from: mikeysm on September 04, 2018, 09:20:09 PM
I decided not to use the insert. Just taking to much of a chance.
Mike
You are entitle to do as you please, I just want to mention that this fish was caught on the same washers material, but smaller in size;
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=20497.msg298746#msg298746
Quote from: Alto Mare on September 04, 2018, 11:12:41 PM
Quote from: mikeysm on September 04, 2018, 09:20:09 PM
I decided not to use the insert. Just taking to much of a chance.
Mike
You are entitle to do as you please, I just want to mention that this fish was caught on the same washers material, but smaller in size;
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=20497.msg298746#msg298746
These were caught with my drags too...
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=21945.0
If you want to return the drag kit, just PM me. Ill happily take it back.
Show me a 600-800 pound shark then you will have my attention.
Mike
Mike please give Adam the same courtesy he's shown you
& send him a pm.
Or you could go catch a 600 - 800 lb. shark & let us know how Adams drag works or not.
That would be the very substance of why so many of us come here.
That being to share & learn from the successes & failures.
Im sorry but your doing your self & Adam a disservice going the route you are... Jeff
I think it's time to close this thread. To much nepotism going on here.
Mike
Play nice.
Wait a min ;) the shark tank hasn't gotten a shark yet ;D
LOL Benni...that looks so much like me...at the river with a giant combo catching tiny catfish. But hey, you never know when a giant will slam that bait! 8)
Yes sir,,,thay always take me into a log or something ;D
Although I personally do not have or fish with a reel larger then a 3/0. I also feel that any reel is not indestructible, somethings got to give when an indestructible object meets an immovable object.
Even tanks are not indestructible. I know first hand from my training in the military with demolition and mine warfare. Adam is doing that task with the best he knows how.
Joe