Here's the pic, the under gear CF washer that came with the kit is about 1/2 the size of the original, can this be correct?
After reading around it looks like Newells are supposed to use a Delrin under the gear?
It looks like a 4 stack gear sleeve so it should have a full size CF washer. Don't see many G's with the 4 stack so I can see why it would have come with a small washer for a 3 stack.
No, a 3 stack, 3 metal, 3 fiber and a belleville.
Is that metal washer attached to the gear sleeve so there's a drag washer under the gear? If it is it's a 4 stack, a 3 stack has all the drag washers inside the gear and that small washer would go between the gear and the AR gear.
Yes, that washer is attached to the sleeve. There was nothing between the AR gear and the bottom plate.
So that was a 4th drag washer under the main gear. Which sets up the question how do I install the new 5 washer kit?
It appears someone has installed a P series main gear in your reel, and that will be confirmed by looking at the bottom of the main gear to see if has a counter bore to accommodate a full size drag washer. You can try to locate a correct main gear (no recess) to install the 5 stack drag kit in the correct main gear which will give you a lot more drag than the old configuration.
That someone was Carl Newell. I bought this reel new about 30 years ago, first time it's ever been apart.
I looked to confirm I could use the drag washers I bought in a 229M, but no, same 4 stack.
I get the feeling Newell went off the reservation when it suited him.
Nice upgrade to a 4 stack from a 3. The washers are the same size as a penn 500, if you have one those you could use that too. It should work ok with the small washer until you get a full size one. You could also use the old one in a pinch.
I've been in touch with the seller who knows Bryan, they're going to discuss it as apparently this is a real one-off, I bought it new and it came form Newell this way.
Some of the early G's had P gears and yours looks to be one of them! Good deal for you. With a full size Carbontex Jigmaster washer underneath the gear and one of Bryan's souped up kits inside you should be good to go!
Should anything go on the shaft before the sleeve, under the AR ratchet? And how many washers inside the top of the gear?
Quote from: reel man on June 01, 2019, 02:31:32 AM
It appears someone has installed a P series main gear in your reel, and that will be confirmed by looking at the bottom of the main gear to see if has a counter bore to accommodate a full size drag washer. You can try to locate a correct main gear (no recess) to install the 5 stack drag kit in the correct main gear which will give you a lot more drag than the old configuration.
That is the bottom of the main gear in the photo, you can see the recess. That steel washer attached to the top of the AR ratchet fits into it with a fiber washer in between.
PM me your address and I'll send you a full size under gear washer. This is the same washer used in the old p-series and very few first runs of the g-series.
The under gear washer that is provided with your kit is for all other Newell's.
Quote from: MarkT on June 01, 2019, 03:23:54 AM
Some of the early G's had P gears and yours looks to be one of them! Good deal for you. With a full size Carbontex Jigmaster washer underneath the gear and one of Bryan's souped up kits inside you should be good to go!
'
Mark, why would I need a different washer under the gear than the ones in the stack inside it? They are the same size.
Quote from: Bryan Young on June 01, 2019, 03:39:41 AM
PM me your address and I'll send you a full size under gear washer. This is the same washer used in the old p-series and very few first runs of the g-series.
The under gear washer that is provided with your kit is for all other Newell's.
Thanks Bryan, just to clarify, the under gear washer is identical size to the washers in the stack.
And I am still confused as how this goes together.
What goes under the gear?
What goes over the gear?
Here's the kit I'm told will work, I see 6 large CF washers and one small one. 5 large washers go in the stack with the 4 steel washers. 1 large washer goes in the recess in the bottom of the main gear. (Are these all the same thickness?)
Where does the smaller CF washer go?
Bryan's washers are thinner which is why you have more washers with his kit. You need a standard washer to fill the gap under the gear... but I bet a delrin would be great there!
Yes, but please, someone tell me.....
Where does the smaller CF washer go?
Your reel has a stock 4-stack drag kit. You actually needed a 6-stack drag kit. The small drag washer is intended to go the main gear in all other Newell reels that do not have the 4-stack drag system. I hope this helps. A full under gear drag washer will be sent to you to complete your 6-stack drag system tomorrow.
Sorry for your troubles.
Bryan
Oh, I just saw your picture. You have an extra drag washer for some reason. Put it in your parts box.
Please use the thicker Carbontex drag washer for your under gear drag washer. You should have 5 Carbontex washers that are 0.5 mm thick and one that is 0.76 mm thick.
Therefore, I will not be sending out an extra 0.76 mm under gear drag washer.
OK, for anyone looking at this in the future, I just spoke with Bryan and in the photo above, the small washer at the bottom of the row of CF's is not a CF, it's a belleville.
Thanks for calling me. I think I understand. I'll mail you the under gear washer tomorrow. Have a pleasant night/morning.
In your reel you would not use the small washer
Sort of a related question: Is there a way to tell if an early G has a 4 stack without opening it? The ones with the stainless levers and clicker buttons or the red badge ones?
Mine has a red stripe on the handle, nothing else.
Honestly I don't think one can tell until you open it. Just like knowing if your reel has a double dog bridge.
Quote from: Bryan Young on June 02, 2019, 07:11:52 AM
Honestly I don't think one can tell until you open it. Just like knowing if your reel has a double dog bridge.
There is one way. All of the 4 stack systems that I have ever seen have a SS gear sleeve. So, you could remove the handle nut and handle to get a good look at the end of the gear sleeve. SS would be 4 stack and bronze would be 3 stack. Of course I am referring to factory original parts. A lot of us have recently installed Cortez conversion SS sleeves.
Dwight
And to finish up...
Thanks to Bryan for sending the correct under gear washer. I installed everything according to the directions in the kit, lubed it up with Cal's grease, put it back together and... no drag.
My other two Newells have a spacer collar that transfers force from the back of the star to the top of the stack. This factory bastardized reel has a brass collar as one piece with the back of the star. In any case the actual star itself was bottoming out on the sideplate before compressing the stack. It took some trial and error but what I ended up doing was taking one of the original, thick steel keyed washers and putting it on top of the last new, thin keyed washer, on the top of the stack and under the new belleville. This raised the height of the stack enough for me to get full drag capability.
Will be taking it tuna fishing on Sunday off Long Island, will report back.
Thanks to all, especially Bryan and Ken.
Glad you got it working for tuna fishing. With all custom parts it will take a little adjustment due to the variability in stock parts. Even the slightest, as you found out, can have have great affects on the drag system.
Yes, I'm getting more comfortable swapping parts out now. The amount of drag I can get from this reel is quite an upgrade, have to make sure the rest of the reel can handle it.
Thanks again.
Rob
Quote from: Swami805 on June 02, 2019, 01:52:45 AM
Sort of a related question: Is there a way to tell if an early G has a 4 stack without opening it? The ones with the stainless levers and clicker buttons or the red badge ones?
I've got red label and black label G-series with stainless levers and none of them are 4-stacks. Carl liked to tinker and make design changes, so it doesn't surprise me that there are a few G-series out there built up with leftover P-series 4 stacks.
Thanks, I have an early G440 that has an aluminum handle and stainless lever and clicker. It's NIB so I haven't opened it, I'll have to check.
And I have one very rare 338 with a double dog. Sorry not for sale.
Dwight
Great timely thread to find! I'm replacing the drag in a P1440F, using the Ultimate Upgrade kit as shown in a post above. My questions are, where does the smaller diameter thicker domed washer go?
Also, does this setup get installed greased or dry, and if greased, what gets greased? Thanks!
I greased all the washers, worked a nice coat into the CF's and then wiped my fingers on the stainless ones.
The domed metal (belleville) washer is to replace the original, it goes atop the last SS, open side down, it spreads the force to the center of the SS washer. You might have to play with that vs the original belleville. One of my setups did better with the original.
OK, thanks RE: greasing the washers. My old ones were greased; the tutorial on the 220 only mentioned greasing the bottom washer under the gear. I didn't want to mess up a brand new drag setup by greasing it if it wasn't supposed to be greased. The Belleville washer I 'm going to have to ream out slightly to get it to go all the way down the shaft the washers are on... there in a slight step up of the corners where the bottom section of threads ends. I don't think the old stack had a Belleville washer on it. I laid everything out in the order I took them off, and the only keyed washer that fit the shaft down to the drag washers was thin and flat, and a little smaller in diameter than the replacement. Gonna give it some careful hand filing to fit down to the washers. Thank you for the info! 😊👍
May want to wait until Bryan or Newell Guy chime in before filing anything. One thing I have learned is that Newell would occasionally use extra parts that were on hand, they don't always match up with the diagrams. All 3 of my reels needed to have the washers on top of the stack, between handle/star tweaked to get a good range. but once you have it right they are smooth!
Quote from: Snookkatcher on July 28, 2019, 07:00:43 PM
OK, thanks RE: greasing the washers. My old ones were greased; the tutorial on the 220 only mentioned greasing the bottom washer under the gear. I didn't want to mess up a brand new drag setup by greasing it if it wasn't supposed to be greased. The Belleville washer I 'm going to have to ream out slightly to get it to go all the way down the shaft the washers are on... there in a slight step up of the corners where the bottom section of threads ends. I don't think the old stack had a Belleville washer on it. I laid everything out in the order I took them off, and the only keyed washer that fit the shaft down to the drag washers was thin and flat, and a little smaller in diameter than the replacement. Gonna give it some careful hand filing to fit down to the washers. Thank you for the info! 😊👍
I'm sorry to hear that you are having some trouble. But first, all of the Carbontex drag washers should be greased with a drag grease, such as Cal's Universal and Drag Grease, Tan or Purple (whichever one you have). Now to your troubles. How does the keyed and eared metal washer fit? If the fit the gear sleeve, it's strange that the Belleville washer doesn't slide down the gear sleeve as well. It's okay to ream it out slightly. If you mess it up, I can always send you a replacement. But first, please measure the diameter of the gear sleeve and the ID of the Belleville washer. I may have a replacement for you. Please let me know. Thanks, Bryan
Some of the early reels were made without a beveled washer. It was replaced by making the drag spacer with a built in larger flat side to press against the drag stack. I have only seen this in 200 series though. The drag spacer had to placed into the side plate from the inside before installing the bridge system.
A 440 should have a beveled washer. What kind of drag spacer do you have? Is it straight with no flange on it?
Dwight