Hello men, I was given two brand new reels, 113H's, red side plate, (never used) and when I tried to troll a 4 arm umbrella rig with no weight the reels couldn't pull them. I had the star turned the entire way down on both reels and they just let line out. I plan on taking them apart to see what the problem is but what do I want to look for? These were made the last year before Penn moved their operations to Japan. I've only tried fishing with them that 1 time! Thank you, Bob
Are the ears on the top eared washer out of the groove and catchng on the rim of the gear?
Quote from: Keta on March 07, 2014, 02:59:49 PM
Are the ears on the top eared washer out of the groove and catchng on the rim of the gear?
X2
Bob,
With all the great Tutorials in the Senator Section. You should have no problem fixing these. That's why I like the Senators so much. Simple Design and tough as nails! >:(
The other thing is that if the reel has been oiled...a lot, the drags may be contaminated with oil and will not function very well.
Another thing, which makes you feel silly if your the one who did it, could be that the last time the reels were opened up a bellville or something else wasn't included and so the star isn't actually compressing anything.
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on March 07, 2014, 07:00:31 PM
Another thing, which makes you feel silly if your the one who did it, could be that the last time the reels were opened up a bellville or something else wasn't included and so the star isn't actually compressing anything.
Ron
Yup. Also if it was stored with the drag tightened, the bellville can get flattened, causing the same problem.
Line slipping on spool?
Quote from: borchcl on March 08, 2014, 04:04:36 AM
Line slipping on spool?
X2, especially if you have spectra on the bottom
OK, I took both reels apart today and as I see it both are missing the same washer. The washer behind the main gear is so small and thin (made out of plastic or something but not at all like the actual drag washers). Then looking at a schematic, the eared washer gets a fibre washer on top which is followed by two metal washers together. This is where I am missing one of those washers. In the metal washer kit it shows 6 metal washers but in my reels there are only 5 metal washers. So when I tighten on the star it is not compressing all the washers tight enough to reach max drag. Sound right? Also, not a speck of grease on the washers but plenty sloped every where on the inside.
Thank you, Bob
The fiber washer is what the factory has provided for the last few years. I think you are describing a missing metal drag washer, but I'd have to see what exactly you have.
Ron
Bob, if you can just post a pic of your drag stack and it'll be easy to tell what the deal is.
Here are some pics with more to come.
Here are the additional pics. Thank you men.
That looks correct. I think the eared washer may have been sitting on top of the gear. If you use greased cf washers it helps them stick together a little so you can get the stack in the reel together .
It looks to me like Lee was rite. No spirit there.If you put it back together correctly it should be fine.
Ronald
No, when I first took them apart I was carefull and watched for just that. The eared washer was down inside and level with the top of the main gear.
According to the schematic, I should have two "keyed" washers back to back which is what I'm missing. Correct?
Quote from: hippie on March 09, 2014, 11:14:54 PM
According to the schematic, I should have two "keyed" washers back to back which is what I'm missing. Correct?
No, you've got it right. They alternate with a non keyed between them. There is nothing wrong with your stack that I can see.
As careful as you were if there is no drag for that stack there are only a few possible explanations:
1. Despite your best intention the ear was out. It could easily slip back in during the take apart.
2. The star is tightening all the way down without applying pressure because your spacing sleeve (9) is the wrong one. Sometimes they vary greatly in height.
3.
But, you seem to have an extra stainless washer at the top of the stack. There should only be one normal metal keyed washer (86) under the tension spring (8A). There seems to be too many "stainless to stainless" washers ie you have 3 total in sequence and this may slip too easily especially if well greased.regards
Here is a picture from MysticParts on the stack. Fiber first, then keyed, fiber, eared, fiber, keyed and so on.
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/6-113HSP.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/6-113HSP.aspx)
If the spacer is not correct, It won't supply the pressure needed for the drag to work properly.
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
Here is the schematic I was using. As you can see there is a difference. At the top of the stack there are 2 metal washers back to back and they are the same. These 2 are right below #8A, then a spacer, followed by #8.
http://www.ereplacementparts.com/penn-113h-special-senator-reel-parts-c-186082_186083_186193.html
Thank you, Bob
Sometimes I have to add washers to the top of the stack to get the pressure needed for the drag to compress. Especially in an older reel that has been rebuilt before. The 10 and 12/0 have different lengths of spacers. I have come across three different lengths and modify the stack appropriately to compensate. Preferably with more drags. Or just change the spacer to the one suited to the stack.
Quote from: hippie on March 10, 2014, 06:28:22 PM
Here is the schematic I was using. As you can see there is a difference. At the top of the stack there are 2 metal washers back to back and they are the same. These 2 are right below #8A, then a spacer, followed by #8.
http://www.ereplacementparts.com/penn-113h-special-senator-reel-parts-c-186082_186083_186193.html
Thank you, Bob
Yep, yep. I have seen that before but if they are real greasy they might be giving you the trouble?
regards
Try a different spring washer, if that doesn't do it sometimes could also be the star.
I'll try everything you men said to do. The star does get that tight when I crank down on it that I get grooves in my thumb and fingers. But the line, at that time, still comes off the spool way too easy. I cannot even pull a simple 4 arm umbrella rig! With 2 never used reels it is a shame to have to use a styrofoam wedge to help with the drag, but if that is what fishing has come to then so be it!
Thanks again, Bob
Hippie,
Try the star without the plate but with all the washers and the spacer to see how far it compress the drag. Compare it to when it is in the plate to see if the star is bottoming out before there is any compression of the drag.
Quite possibly the pressure from the umbrella rig is greater than the drag your reel produces. I maybe that you need a 7-stack in your main gear or a hex main gear with keyed drag washers.
What kind of drag pressure are you getting out of the reel now? 20#?
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 12, 2014, 01:25:38 AM
Quite possibly the pressure from the umbrella rig is greater than the drag your reel produces. I maybe that you need a 7-stack in your main gear or a hex main gear with keyed drag washers.
What kind of drag pressure are you getting out of the reel now? 20#?
Good point Bryan. I envisioned light umbrella rigs but they can be enormous and have to be towed by 30w+ size reels if they are the big stainless monstrosities.
It would be very helpful if he actually measured with a scale what drag he is getting.
A normal umbrella rig should not apply that much pressure that a 113's drag could not pull it through the water.
One thing I have found helpful when working with Penn's drag stacks is to build the stack and include everything up to the spacer in this case part #9 on the gear sleeve. I then add a small grommet or rubber band above and tight to the spacer to hold everything in place while assembling the bridge to the side plate. Sometimes a rubberband may need to be doubled or more to hold the drag stack inside the gear during assembly. It does not need to be tight but snug enough so the top eared washer does not pop out of the gear as you attach the bridge with gear and drag stack to the sideplate. Adding the rubber band above the spacer makes removing the rubberband easy because it will be outside of the sideplate when the bridge is installed to the sideplate.
It does make sense that the spacer could be "bottoming out" as that would cause the problem. I will check that but I doubt it because I should have noticed that.
As to how much drag- I don't know. My weigh scale is on my boat 200 miles away. I can tell you all that my 309 and 329 each have more drag than these two reels. I just put new HT-100 washers and converted from a 1+3 stack to a 1+5 stack in a 68 and it also has more drag tension when pulling line off. Both at "startup" and a continuous pull.
Oh, I forgot, my umbrellas are about 12" from end to end and are only 4 arms, (2-12" pieces crossed).
I was trying to run them without additional weight and only had 8-4" shads on the arms and 1-6oz parachute running down the center for bait. These reels should certainly pull those!
Thank you again, Bob
I've been thinking...if a person was to take a pair of channel lock pliers and tighten down the star as tight as it will go, then shouldn't that result in the drag not allowing any line to pull off the spool? In essence,Bob causing the drag to "freeze up". Bob
Bob,
Sometime the spacer may just barely touch the side and hung up giving you the impression that it was fully down. Only when you tightened the drag does the spacer start sliding down. Ideally once fully tightened you should still have a little less than .500 mm of the spacer sticking out..
ok men, I retrieved my scale so here are the drag numbers; both of my 113's have a startup at 7 lbs. I measured the startup on one #68 at 11 lbs and the other #68 at 14 lbs. All four reels had the star drag tightened down as far as possible without using pliers, only fingers. Clearly the 113's are the weak link!
Thanks to all who responded and offered advice, Bob
Something isn't right, those numbers are way low, even for 3 asbestos disks. You can't be compressing the drag sufficiently.
Ron
Is the spool slipping on the shaft?
Bryan, I wouldn't think that would happen to all 3 reels. One of the 68s numbers make sence but the other two seem really low.
Ron
Do you have Spectra on these reels?
ok men, First off I have two 113's, both have a 1+5 drag system. The two #68's both have a 1+5 drag system. I got the 113's brand new and only tried to troll with them once but could not do so because of the drag. No, none of my reels have braid, they all have 40 lb Andre mono. How do I check to see if the spool is slipping? Thank you, Bob
Did you try a different spring washer? A soft one will do what you're experiencing. Your numbers are low, it has to be related to your drag stack.
No, I did not try a new spring washer. It does make sense that the washer could be causing my troubles. I'll check the washer and post back. Thank you, Bob
I have been studying the schematics and just now noticed that after tearing these reels apart numerous times that I never noticed, on either 113H, a part numbered 15A-113H. It is listed as an insert but I never noticed any such part in either reel. Could that missing part cause the drag to be so light?
Thank you, Bob
Quote from: hippie on March 25, 2014, 08:22:16 PM
ok men, First off I have two 113's, both have a 1+5 drag system. The two #68's both have a 1+5 drag system. I got the 113's brand new and only tried to troll with them once but could not do so because of the drag. No, none of my reels have braid, they all have 40 lb Andre mono. How do I check to see if the spool is slipping? Thank you, Bob
Bob, if you open your reel, take a permanent marker and mark the spool shaft and spool with a line that matches us. Then reinstall and tighten the drags and pull the line then open up the reel again to see if there were any shifts in the line drawn.
Bryan, Thank you, that is what I didn't know how to do. I will get on that today and post back the results.
Alto, I'll look around for another spring washer but it seems odd that the spring washer would go bad on both 113's. And to the point where both washers are the same weakness so as it has the very same startup weight on each reel?
Thank you again, Bob
If there was a material problem and the reels were from the same run it could happen.
this thread made me test mine (5+1 drags) and lifted an 11lb weight with almost 4/5 turn of the star left. something is definitely not working properly...hope you find the culprit.
Quote from: noyb72 on March 25, 2014, 08:04:49 PM
Bryan, I wouldn't think that would happen to all 3 reels. One of the 68s numbers make sence but the other two seem really low.
Ron
Ron,
For the 68s with a 3 drag stack in the main gear, 10-15# of drag is very common, and not all 3 reels.
My only concern is the 113H. The reel should easily reach 15-20# of drag. If he is consistenly getting 7#, then there is something else that is wrong. As it cannot be the drive system. Hippie indicated that it was not the line, so my only other deduction is the spool itself.
I have had seen only 2 spools spin on the spool shaft, so I don't know if this is the problem, but suspect that it is.
Bryan
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 26, 2014, 05:09:26 PM
Hippie indicated that it was not the line, so my only other deduction is the spool itself.
I have had seen only 2 spools spin on the spool shaft, so I don't know if this is the problem, but suspect that it is.
Bryan
x2 taking into consideration that the rest of the equation is correct.
This might have been addresses earlier but is your drag stack, CF, keyed, CF, eared, CF, keyed, CF, eared, CF, keyed?
Bob: Where are you located? Dominick
You beat me too it Dominick. I think someone needs to look at these reels. ;)
X3, I was about to have him ship it to me to look over.
Quote from: Keta on March 26, 2014, 05:45:24 PM
X3, I was about to have him ship it to me to look over.
X2
Was thinking the same thing...but I know the satisfaction of figuring it out yourself and fixing it yourself.
We are here as your first, middle and last resort Hippie.
So before you throw your reel off the boat like this guy did, send it to one of us and maybe we can help you figure it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjgvMRlpqUY&feature=player_embedded
I live in Lancaster, Pa. and have a home in the Ocean Pines, Md. The reels are with me in Lancaster. You men say the word and I can meet you where ever you want. Let me check this spool shaft and tension washer first and I'll post the findings. Thank you all again, Bob
We have a very knowledgeable member here that is in Havertown.
Hi Bob,
It appears that you are about 1.5 hours from Sal's (Alto Mare) location. He may be the closest best bet you have in trouble shooting the lack of drag, and he probably has parts available to fix it as well.
Bryan
hi bob! SAl AKA Alto Mare is our resident penn engineer... :)
Quote from: Mel B on March 26, 2014, 10:05:08 PM
hi bob! SAl AKA Alto Mare is our resident penn engineer... :)
...and he works cheap. A bottle of Zin will make him happy. ;D Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on March 27, 2014, 12:38:50 AM
...and he works cheap. A bottle of Zin will make him happy. ;D Dominick
and Dominick will even directly send it to Sal... ;) :D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Well I checked the spool to see if it is spinning on the shaft. I did just as Bryan suggested and it appears not to be spinning. The marks did not change!
I did as Sal suggested and tried to check the tension washer. Since I don't know if either are any good I put two tension washers back to back (located directly under the star) and it took the startup weight to 12 lbs.
We are still far away from 20 lbs so what do you men suggest?
Thank you, Bob
Did anybody grind down the sleeve part #9 i this reel ? It seems to me you are adding another spring washer and you get more drag . Do you have another sleeve that you can swap or check the length with ?
Quote from: hippie on March 27, 2014, 12:43:44 PM
Well I checked the spool to see if it is spinning on the shaft. I did just as Bryan suggested and it appears not to be spinning. The marks did not change!
I did as Sal suggested and tried to check the tension washer. Since I don't know if either are any good I put two tension washers back to back (located directly under the star) and it took the startup weight to 12 lbs.
We are still far away from 20 lbs so what do you men suggest?
Thank you, Bob
Sal (Alto Mare)
Send him a PM. I think you have exhausted all possibilities. Its time to bring in reinforcements. ;)
I want to know what the problem is. Its not the spool slipping, its not the stack, it has to be something in assembly. Sal is your Man for Sure. He is a Senator Guru. ;D Also the closest to you.
Rusty Old Colt, I know they make different lengths of spacer sleeves. When my drag is tightened down as far as I can get it (with my fingers) I still have about 1/16 to 3/32 of an inch showing outside the side plate. There is not much of a difference in length with or without the second washer (the washer is very thin). So my thinking is, I could actually get more drag but it would involve twisting down on the star with pliers for that 1/16 inch. I really should not have to use pliers and by doing so I could break something inside. I did look for a schematic that shows the spacer length but could not locate any. If someone has such a schematic could you please post it (showing the length).
Thank you all again, Bob
Keta, I checked and rechecked the washer configuration and made certain that the two eared washers were set in the grooves for them.
Thank you for your suggestion, Bob
Your problem has a lot of us curious, try to get one of the reels to one of us.
Keta, I sent a PM to Sal. Waiting to hear from him. There is only so much that can go wrong and the engineering on a Penn is simple but yet I can not figure it out. I must be overlooking something!
Are the washers greased, dry or are they soaked with reel oil? If greased, what type of grease? When you look at the drag washers, are they carbon fiber HT-100s? Are they shiny and smooth or you can clearly see the weave? And if you can see the weave, when you feel it is it smooth or textured?
Quote from: Keta on March 27, 2014, 03:00:30 PM
Your problem has a lot of us curious, try to get one of the reels to one of us.
Especially me. I'll even pay the shipping both ways. Dominick
Your stack is incorrect. On a Penn 1 + 5 drag you have the smaller fibre washer under the gear and 5 metal and 5 fibre washers. You have 6 metal. Get rid of 1 x steel drag washer at the top. You should then have drag spring washer (8a) then spacing sleeve (9) then tension spring 8. The parts schematic you have referenced is incorrect. There is no reference to a 6th metal drag washer on any schematic in the entire 113h series.
Quote from: OldSchool on March 27, 2014, 05:58:08 PM
Your stack is incorrect. On a Penn 1 + 5 drag you have the smaller fibre washer under the gear and 5 metal and 5 fibre washers. You have 6 metal. Get rid of 1 x steel drag washer at the top. You should then have drag spring washer (8a) then spacing sleeve (9) then tension spring (8). The parts schematic you have referenced is incorrect. There is no reference to a 6th metal drag washer on any schematic in the entire 113h series.
In some cases, there was an extra keyed washer on the top of the drag stack because some of the spacing tubes were cut a little short. It may not be in the schematics, but it's a common way to take up extra space.
For 2 6/0 reels that I recently serviced, I added 2 additional keyed washers for this very purpose.
I believe both Johntuttle and Oldscool are correct here. I ran into the same situation on a 113h tank I just completed recently. Found a NIB USA made 113 at a local shop, ordered up a tib frame, stainless gear sleeve, 5+1 stack, handle, and ss dogs. When I got it all together I was disappointed when I could barely pull 15 lbs. of drag with the star turned down all the way. After tearing down and reassembling the stack several times it occurred to me that I had two stainless washers together at the top. I swear that was the way it came new, so I just assembled it the same way. Put it back together with only the single washer on top and Bingo!.. 22lbs. of drag without even trying hard! Could probably get close to 30 if I cranked it down. I just don't see how two greased ss washers can work together properly unless they are somehow locked together.
I believe your situation had 1 eared and 1 keyed washer on top of each other, which doesn't work. Stacking keyed washers on top of each other does lock them together and they just take up space like a spacer sleeve.
Ron
The best way to configure/adjust your drag stack (in my humble opinion), is to pull the bridge assembly and assemble all parts including gear sleeve, under gear washer, main gear, all CF/Keyed/eared washers, spring washer(s), star, and handle and check for drag stack function and star travel on the threads. If your drag stack is not being sufficiently compressed as the star begins to tighten you may be missing a Belleville, your sleeve might be too short, or you need another keyed washer in top of stack to increase the spacing. Once you have your drag stack configured, and spacing set up correctly, you need to test fit it on the right sideplate to ensure you have adequate clearance between the stack and plate when the bridge screws have been tightened and the star is backed all the way back. You will know if it binds here at all. There are different Belleville, keyed washers, top hat washers, and gear sleeves (thickness/lengths) that can be used to fine tune your stack accordingly. Hope this helps?
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 27, 2014, 07:29:48 PM
The best way to configure/adjust your drag stack (in my humble opinion), is to pull the bridge assembly and assemble all parts including gear sleeve, under gear washer, main gear, all CF/Keyed/eared washers, spring washer(s), star, and handle and check for drag stack function and star travel on the threads. If your drag stack is not being sufficiently compressed as the star begins to tighten you may be missing a Belleville, your sleeve might be too short, or you need another keyed washer in top of stack to increase the spacing. Once you have your drag stack configured, and spacing set up correctly, you need to test fit it on the right sideplate to ensure you have adequate clearance between the stack and plate when the bridge screws have been tightened and the star is backed all the way back. You will know if it binds here at all. There are different Belleville, keyed washers, top hat washers, and gear sleeves (thickness/lengths) that can be used to fine tune your stack accordingly. Hope this helps?
Tightlines, you just recapped what everyone else said ;D
Hippie, send them my way and I'll look them over. Just let me know how far you want me to go with them, there are lots of options.
Check your email, Sal
Well I tore the reel apart. I am now confused more than ever!
Bryan, the fibre washers have a definite "tread" pattern to them and when feeling them you can feel the "tread".
Now, as I said I would, I was carefull to look for an "insert" (#15A). It is not there. So according to a Penn schematic there should be 3 metal washers against each other without the "insert". On another schematic it shows 2 metal washers against each other with an "insert" (#15A). Both schematics are for a 113H, red side plates and a half frame.
Here is the schematic which shows 3 metal washers against one another and NO "insert".
http://www.ereplacementparts.com/penn-113h-special-senator-reel-parts-c-186082_186083_186193.html (http://www.ereplacementparts.com/penn-113h-special-senator-reel-parts-c-186082_186083_186193.html)
Here is the one showing 2 metal washers against each other and an "insert" (#15A).
https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/schematics/113h_half.pdf (https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/schematics/113h_half.pdf)
Please note that mine had 3 metal washers against each other and NO "insert" and at "startup" the drag was 7 lbs. So it makes NO difference if there are 3 or 2 metal washers. They act only as spacers. The spacer sleeve is not into the side plate prohibiting the star from tightening down more, but the drag is compressed to the max that doesn't allow the star to tighten down any more unless you would use big pliers and bust something inside.
At this point I know nothing and am about to mount the reels on my transom and use them to bring in dredges and chains or throw them away so they don't give me any more headaches!
Thank you all, Bob
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
Geez, don't do anything rash....will ya just send the thing to Sal please ;D ;D
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 27, 2014, 07:29:48 PM
The best way to configure/adjust your drag stack (in my humble opinion), is to pull the bridge assembly and assemble all parts including gear sleeve, under gear washer, main gear, all CF/Keyed/eared washers, spring washer(s), star, and handle and check for drag stack function and star travel on the threads. If your drag stack is not being sufficiently compressed as the star begins to tighten you may be missing a Belleville, your sleeve might be too short, or you need another keyed washer in top of stack to increase the spacing. Once you have your drag stack configured, and spacing set up correctly, you need to test fit it on the right sideplate to ensure you have adequate clearance between the stack and plate when the bridge screws have been tightened and the star is backed all the way back. You will know if it binds here at all. There are different Belleville, keyed washers, top hat washers, and gear sleeves (thickness/lengths) that can be used to fine tune your stack accordingly. Hope this helps?
YUP!
Sal will hook you up. He is the one that always helped me out and Still Does. ;)
I embedded my response in your quote below to keep things in order.
Quote from: hippie on March 27, 2014, 09:21:53 PM
Well I tore the reel apart. I am now confused more than ever!
Bryan, the fibre washers have a definite "tread" pattern to them and when feeling them you can feel the "tread".
BAY>That's a good sign.Now, as I said I would, I was carefull to look for an "insert" (#15A). It is not there. So according to a Penn schematic there should be 3 metal washers against each other without the "insert". On another schematic it shows 2 metal washers against each other with an "insert" (#15A). Both schematics are for a 113H, red side plates and a half frame.
BAY>I have NEVER seen insert 15A-113H. I think that may have been a very limited run item. I think it essentially fills the gap for the space where if the reel is cofiigured in left hand configuration, the dog would go in that spot and the spacer will be moved to the other side. I would not worry about Part 15A-113H.
Regarding the metal washers, are you referring to Part Nos. 8-349, 18-970, and 9-113H? Well, I often toss Part No. 18-970 as it really doesn't help, and this parts often rusts, and that is the main reason why I toss this washer.
Here is the schematic which shows 3 metal washers against one another and NO "insert".
http://www.ereplacementparts.com/penn-113h-special-senator-reel-parts-c-186082_186083_186193.html (http://www.ereplacementparts.com/penn-113h-special-senator-reel-parts-c-186082_186083_186193.html)
Here is the one showing 2 metal washers against each other and an "insert" (#15A).
https://www.mysticparts.com/images/pennparts/schematics/113h_half.pdf (https://www.mysticparts.com/images/pennparts/schematics/113h_half.pdf)
Please note that mine had 3 metal washers against each other and NO "insert" and at "startup" the drag was 7 lbs. So it makes NO difference if there are 3 or 2 metal washers. They act only as spacers. The spacer sleeve is not into the side plate prohibiting the star from tightening down more, but the drag is compressed to the max that doesn't allow the star to tighten down any more unless you would use big pliers and bust something inside.
BY>I've studied your pictures and looking at your drag stack order (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10048.0;attach=6383;image), it looks fine.
At this point I know nothing and am about to mount the reels on my transom and use them to bring in dredges and chains or throw them away so they don't give me any more headaches!
BY>Bob, we have all been there...well, I have. I really cannot talk for anyone else. It may be something really simple that we are missing. See if you can hook up with Sal. If you don't mind mailing your reel off, I'd gladly help.
Thank you all, Bob
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
i've been following, not closely though, this thread and did a little research and agree with Bryan don't worry about the insert part 15A-113H. it has nothing to do with the drag mechanism. but i think this insert is used as plugs if you don't want lugs on your reel. also looked at your drag stack and someone had the same problem with his reel and did away with the 6th metal washer and it solved the problem. i highly recommend to do the same thing because that washer is not keyed and i'm thinking it's slipping. just my 2 cents.
Quote from: wascallywabit on March 27, 2014, 06:29:43 PM
I believe both Johntuttle and Oldscool are correct here. I ran into the same situation on a 113h tank I just completed recently. Found a NIB USA made 113 at a local shop, ordered up a tib frame, stainless gear sleeve, 5+1 stack, handle, and ss dogs. When I got it all together I was disappointed when I could barely pull 15 lbs. of drag with the star turned down all the way. After tearing down and reassembling the stack several times it occurred to me that I had two stainless washers together at the top. I swear that was the way it came new, so I just assembled it the same way. Put it back together with only the single washer on top and Bingo!.. 22lbs. of drag without even trying hard! Could probably get close to 30 if I cranked it down. I just don't see how two greased ss washers can work together properly unless they are somehow locked together.
here is his post...
Quote from: Mel B on March 28, 2014, 01:39:33 AM
i've been following, not closely though, this thread and did a little research and agree with Bryan don't worry about the insert part 15A-113H. it has nothing to do with the drag mechanism. but i think this insert is used as plugs if you don't want lugs on your reel. also looked at your drag stack and someone had the same problem with his reel and did away with the 6th metal washer and it solved the problem. i highly recommend to do the same thing because that washer is not keyed and i'm thinking it's slipping. just my 2 cents.
x2
Quote from: Mel B on March 28, 2014, 01:39:33 AM
but i think this insert is used as plugs if you don't want lugs on your reel.
It goes into the AR dog slot on side plates that have the cut out for LH and RH AR dogs to keep the bridge from bending if you over tighten the screws. I've only seen 1 of them.
Keta, That is how my side plate is (cut out for either rh or lh). So I won't worry about that, good, that is some progress!
MelB and others, I will take out the washer above the keyed washer and see how things go. I also have some super thin fibre washers and could put one in between the two metal washers. I will try as you men said first.
Thank you, Bob
bob, i know i'm late to this discussion, but something is bottoming out somewhere, or you have metal to metal somewhere.
Bob,
you can replace the 6th washer with a keyed one to add more height to the spacer or place that unkeyed washer before the star.
don't worry buddy with the resources AlanTani.com has will get to the bottom of this.
Well, I took both 113's apart today. The one I had been working on was the way you men said with only 2 washers at the top of the stack. It was getting 7 lbs at startup. I put another washer on top of the two metal ones making 3 metal washers together on top of the drag. Tested and now at 11 lbs. Then I put two additional spring washers above the spacer sleeve and directly below the star. Tested and now at 16 lbs. When twisting the star tight I can now feel it "bottom out". The other reel was configured as you guys said it should be and was testing at 7 lbs. I took it apart but came up light on washers so I couldn't add 3 additional to the setup. So it is still testing at 7 lbs. My honest opinion is that these reels are like boat engines. They just are not engineered the right way yet. I try to buy American goods and Penn in Phila. is close by. But why they would put something like this out on the market is beyond me. Two never used reels and a person still has to work on them. I have had better luck buying used stuff at flea markets for $10.00/reel.
Anyway Sal contacted me and said he'd look at them.
Thank you, Bob
Bryan, the pic you posted of my stack is how I have the reel getting 16lbs. All I did was add another spring washer below the star. So in the pic everything is the same except that where you see a washer above the star (when installed it is actually below the star) there is now two identical washers there.
Hope this helps, Bob
I think whoever set up your reel chose the wrong sleeve spacer. it was probably caught on something with enough force to feel like you are tightening down the drag.
What is the ID of the spring washers? It looks like, from the picture, to be about the same as the OD of the spacer, and therefore, it may be that the spacers are binding with the spring washers.
Bob,
we are probably not on the same page. this were my suggestions;
main gear-CF-keyed washer-CF-eared washer-CF-keyed washer-CF-eared washer-CF-keyed washer-#8A-Right Side Plate-#9-#8-Star (this configuration is what most of us have. the others have a 7+1 drag stack or something else ;D ;D ;D
or
main gear-CF-keyed washer-CF-eared washer-CF-keyed washer-CF-eared washer-CF-keyed washer-keyed washer-#8A-Right Side Plate-#9-#8-Star
or
main gear-CF-keyed washer-CF-eared washer-CF-keyed washer-CF-eared washer-CF-keyed washer-#8A-Right Side Plate-#9-#8-your 6th washer(which i'll call a regular washer)-Star
not 3 washers before #8A
and let me add this one, my 113H's configuration;
main gear-CF-keyed washer-CF-eared washer-CF-keyed washer-CF-eared washer-CF-keyed washer-#8A-Right Side Plate-#9-#8-keyed washer-Star
Quote
The one I had been working on was the way you men said with only 2 washers at the top of the stack
but these 2 washers should be keyed. what i see at the top of your stack is keyed washer-regular washer(if i may say so).
my eyes are probably failing me but i don't think you did any of my suggested configurations.
but since Sal(our resident Penn engineer) will help you, these suggested configurations doesn't matter anymore. and i'm sure he'll figure it out.
man i hope my proof reading is still excellent... ;D ;D ;D
Mel B, Your top configuration is how mine were. With that setup and sequence I was getting 7 lbs of "startup drag" on each reel. Then yesterday I added metal washers and now have 5 metal washers that are "metal to metal". The stack now compresses and I'm getting 16 lbs at "startup". But really men, this should not be set up like this- something is still wrong.
Byran, I understand what you are saying because it appeared that way to me too. The spring washer will not go over the spacer sleeve. I checked that out before.
Maxpowers, You may have something there! The spacer sleeve was not hanging up because I watched the sleeve go in as I turned the star and I could feel the drag star getting harder to turn (tightening). But since I have to put all the additional metal washers on top of the stack to get the drag to compress, why can't I do away with the additional metal washers and go with a longer spacer sleeve? Logic says that will cause the stack to compress and henceforth more drag poundage! You men are the experts, I'm just an idiot trying to get the reels set up the right way, so does that make sense to you men? Would someone please post the correct length of the proper spacer sleeve so I can measure mine and determine if it is too short. I had searched for this before, however, the schematics do not contain the length of the sleeve.
Thank you all, Bob
something is definitely not right. just two more things, is 8A oriented this way )? and is 8 oriented this way (? probably does not matter...
The last thing I can think of what could be wrong is that the metal drag washers are either hanging up on the gear sleeve or the main gear not allowing a full compression of all drag washers.
Try pulling the gear out and can you take a picture of the gear sleeve then the internals of the main gear?
I stopped wasting my grey matter when Bob said he was sending the reel to Sal. We'll get a report from the wizard. Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on March 30, 2014, 01:44:05 AM
I stopped wasting my grey matter when Bob said he was sending the reel to Sal. We'll get a report from the wizard. Dominick
That's a good thing, I doubt you have much grey matter left after chasing all those Pescas!! ;D ;D
Ron
I'm with you on the grey matter Dominick. ;)
Lets finish this! :-\
Quote from: Dominick on March 30, 2014, 01:44:05 AM
I stopped wasting my grey matter when Bob said he was sending the reel to Sal. We'll get a report from the wizard. Dominick
Agreed Dom,this saga is enough to drive one to drink. ;D
Let Sal put us out of our misery here.
Friday reels.... :-\
BY>I've studied your pictures and looking at your drag stack order (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10048.0;attach=6383;image)
Is the ID of the last metal drag washer (#7) deformed? The metal drag washer right before the #8 tension washer.
Good Eye! Phillyguy! ;)
No, not that I noticed. It fits like the others, but I have no way of telling if it is hanging up. Thanks, Bob
Your last washer on top of the gear has been rounded. Some of the others look rounded too. Sal said he contacted you and you never got back with him. Missing out on Meeting Sal is like saying I don't want any water in the Desert! :P
If you want these reels fixed. Sal is your Man. I think everyone here has tried to help. ;D