I never thought I'd be asking this question, but after a "Total time logged in: 1 days, 6 hours and 39 minutes" resulting in 4 drag conversions and numerous other tweaks from the site"s brilliant brain trust; here goes:
Is the drag curve supose to be smoothe throughout the curve from light all the way to lock down? My reels are all the Newell p-f srries and late 80s penn/tiburon conversions. All are CF drags greased with Cal's and reach the anticipated final drag#s. However the last 2-3 pounds achieve is not that smoothe. Its more like a smooth jerk or bouncing smooth release; like a wheel out of round. My testing was done with rod& reel in a rod holder on a parked, trailered boat with a spring scale and 30 feet of line out. Everything is smooth as I could hope for up until about 10-12 pounds on the Newells. The 113,112 and 349s tend to lose it at top end also ( a little like rotars needing to be turned on disc brakes..out of ballance). I havent seen it mentioned on any post. My two 2-day tips are comming up and I usually fish 25- 30 pound line and have never had any issues with the reels. Probably bcause I never lock them down. I've never been this informed on "what can be done and what to expect" so now Im in the curriously cautious mode. Maybe I'm good to go? Any feed back greatly appreciated!
first guess, the frames are torquing or the spool shaft is flexing a little, allowing the spool to rub against the frame. when you said "like a wheel out of round," that tipped me off. a sticky drag will be sticky at low drag and high. a spool rubbing against the frame will be worse at high drag settings and disappears completely at low settings.
in terms of a fix (if this is the cause), then finding the "high" spot and then knocking off a little material on the frame with a dremel and a sanding wheel will fix it quick. usually it is between 1:00 o'clock and 5:00 o'clock as you look at the frame from the right hand side. caution when doing this, though. by grinding away at the frame, you are increasing the gap between the frame and spool. that might allow spectra to get caught inbetween during a backlash. these can really be a mess.
just a guess...... :-\
I've been doing some testing on drags lately and I'm finding out that using Delrin instead of a carbon fiber washer for under the gear, my reels are much smoother.
I'm slowly removing the carbon washer on all of my reels.
Here is where I get mine from...just in case
http://www.mcmaster.com/#2638T24
Sal
How do you cut the washers??
Mike
I've been using these for a while, for all of my washers, I have a couple in different sizes
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-PCs-JEWELERS-METAL-DISC-CIRCLE-CUTTER-PUNCH-TOOL-SET-1-2-1-/321442215618?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad772f6c2
I'm not having luck centering the washer for the inner hole, so I use a dremel for the hole.
Each washer takes a couple of seconds and always come out perfect.
Dwight has a nice cutter, he can cut the washer with the hole with one bit. Those are not cheap though, but if you cut many, it would be a good investment. I'm thinking of getting one.
I've been seriously considering the Delron option as well. It may help to 'smooth things out' at higher drag settings, and is a more practicle idea then trying to customize the reel to accept a flat thrust bearing or some similar expensive and time consuming option.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on June 26, 2014, 01:08:56 AM
is a more practicle idea then trying to customize the reel to accept a flat thrust bearing or some similar expensive and time consuming option.
I'm with you on this, so far I'm very happy with this material and I don't believe there is a need for a thrust roller bearing.
You guys( the alantani crew) are the Best!
I go out to dinner with my wife and daughter - come back and my problem is logically sorted out with the "cause, cure and prevention". All gained in just moments from yrs. of experience.
Looking forword to my project for tomorrow night and will post the results. I think there might be qutie a few wondering about this little quirk at the top end of their drag. :)
Did you replace your metal washers? You might have nailed it when you said "like warped rotors". If those metals warp or bend from storing them with the drag tight you will get bounce no matter what you do. You can replace them or planarize them on a file. If you planarize them, check that they are done evenly using a caliper.
McMaster-Carr is just down the street from where I work in Santa Fe Springs, Ca. I'll stop by and get a piece, then hit-up Harbor Freight on the way home for a punch kit. However, the guys at McMaster may have another idea for cutting the washers out out.
thanks again, john
Quote from: Alto Mare on June 25, 2014, 10:51:22 PM
I've been doing some testing on drags lately and I'm finding out that using Delrin instead of a carbon fiber washer for under the gear, my reels are much smoother.
I'm slowly removing the carbon washer on all of my reels.
Here is where I get mine from...just in case
http://www.mcmaster.com/#2638T24
I'm happy to hear that I'm not the only person not putting drag washers under the main gear. I can't see anything wrong with it, I just don't need the extra drag enough to put one where it isn't designed to be.
i still prefer a drag under the main gear :-\
I have always thought that reel engineers put hard fibre washers under the main gear for a good reason.
For the type of fishing I do, I mainly fish Big Senators. I noticed on a 12/0 Senator, after catching a small 7 foot Black tip last year that fought pretty good, He actually pulled my locked down drag a couple times. The drag washer under the main gear did its job, but it was toast. The teeth from the ratchet had dug into the washer enough that it needed replacement. It also deformed it, so that it wasn't perfectly round any more. I contacted Mc-Master Carr only moments ago and they already replied they would supply me a sample of the Delrin for testing.
Awesome! ;)
Let me mention that I don't have anything to do with Smootdrag, McMaster or anyone else, I simply tried these for myself and I'm happy with the results.
I strongly believe that the washer for under the gear should act as a bearing, not drags.
As you can see from the link above, the material is reasonably priced, well maybe not for long :-\,
Go ahead and give it a shot for yourself and see if it works for you, if you want to stick with the carbon fiber for under the gear, that's ok with me.
Lee mentioned that he cut take this material to the cutter and they could do a good job, that would be nice.
I have some delrin pre cut washers for under the gear.
Penn
4-60
4-155
4-349
4-115
The Daiwa ones: 27H, 50H, 400H, 600/900H
Abu C3's and C4 type reels.
.50 each
Dawn
so here is a question for you. if delron/delrin works under the main gear, would it work inside? :-\
Quote from: alantani on June 26, 2014, 04:20:59 PM
so here is a question for you. if delron/delrin works under the main gear, would it work inside? :-\
Is this question directed to me boss? if so, no the Delrin would not work in the gear and you wouldn't want it to.
Quote from: Alto Mare on June 26, 2014, 04:32:12 PM
Quote from: alantani on June 26, 2014, 04:20:59 PM
so here is a question for you. if delron/delrin works under the main gear, would it work inside? :-\
Is this question directed to me boss? if so, no the Delrin would not work in the gear and you wouldn't want it to.
Sal, interesting comment "you wouldn't want it to." Please explain what you mean by this. Dominick
Dominick,
The Delrin acts as a tough slippery surface for the main gear to ride on. You don't want that inside the gear. The drags inside the gear create friction that helps you stop the fish when you crank the star down.
No friction, No Drag. :P
Dominick, this is very simple. Delrin is very slippery and would be a very good material to use for under the gear, but it would be worthless to use it as drags in the gear. Think of the main gear and its drag washers as a unit, that unit needs to spin as smooth as possible while still doing its job.
Quote from: Alto Mare on June 26, 2014, 04:49:23 PM
Dominick, this is very simple. Delrin is very slippery and would be a very good material to use for under the gear, but it would be worthless to use it as drags in the gear. Think of the main gear and its drag washers as a unit, that unit needs to spin as smooth as possible while still doing its job.
Sorry Daron, we were typing at the same time.
I was butting in. I think he should understand now.
Dominick, If you want to try some Delrin, I can send you some. That goes for you too Boss. ;)
Quote from: Alto Mare on June 26, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on June 26, 2014, 04:49:23 PM
Dominick, this is very simple. Delrin is very slippery and would be a very good material to use for under the gear, but it would be worthless to use it as drags in the gear. Think of the main gear and its drag washers as a unit, that unit needs to spin as smooth as possible while still doing its job.
Sorry Daron, we were typing at the same time.
Sal: While I assumed a slippery surface, I also thought it would turn smoothly. Wouldn't any material smooth or otherwise act as a brake if tightened enough? Playing the devil's advocate here. Dominick
I know what delrin is used for and I think if used as a drag washer you would have to cran
your star drag down so tight to get a reasonable amountor drag , that something is going to break, at a bad time and place, and suck the fun out of perfectly good reel.
Dawn thanks for your input: Look for my email as I have few more items I want to get.
john Alldredge
I'm not sure why delirn would be better for under the main gear versus Carbontex. Under the main gear is also a surface in which you have opposing friction surfaces between the main gear and the gear sleeve...it's the same situation that you have with washers in the main gear.
As I understand it the Delron is made to be slippery and maintains this propert 'under load'. Also, it has good long term durability and shows little wear after extended use. It can be a bit susceptible to flow, and distortion, but is a material that is widely used under the cam assembly to maintain lubricity. It should make an ideal under gear washer material in terms of helping to maintain the smoothness of the drag under heavy load as well as cranking smoothness. It will not however provide much in the way of friction or any modest increase in drag over what is provided within the drag stack, and might allow the reel handle to fall back more readily until the dog(S) engages. I think the positives of using it here, especially in larger sized reels, or at higher drag settings, will far outweigh any perceived drawbacks.
We have a few Locals here that are replacing the bearings in the Newell Reels with solid Derlon Bearing.
Mike
Quote from: Tightlines666 on June 26, 2014, 06:59:12 PM
. I think the positives of using it here, especially in larger sized reels, or at higher drag settings, will far outweigh any perceived drawbacks.
I know it will, but not just on larger reels.
Dominick, if you use only metal washers for drags and tighten down the star with pliers, eventually you will stop the gear. That's not what we're doing here.
Quote from: Dawn on June 26, 2014, 03:41:08 PM
I have some delrin pre cut washers for under the gear.
Penn
4-60
4-155
4-349
4-115
The Daiwa ones: 27H, 50H, 400H, 600/900H
Abu C3's and C4 type reels.
.50 each
Dawn
Dawn, thanks for stepping in, are those the same as the ones I'm showing on the link? I've seen a couple of plastic washers, some break when you bend them, these Delrin won't budge.
.50 cents each is a very good price, a small price to pay, considering....
Quote from: Shark Hunter on June 26, 2014, 05:41:31 AM
For the type of fishing I do, I mainly fish Big Senators. I noticed on a 12/0 Senator, after catching a small 7 foot Black tip last year that fought pretty good, He actually pulled my locked down drag a couple times. The drag washer under the main gear did its job, but it was toast. The teeth from the ratchet had dug into the washer enough that it needed replacement. It also deformed it, so that it wasn't perfectly round any more. I contacted Mc-Master Carr only moments ago and they already replied they would supply me a sample of the Delrin for testing.
Awesome! ;)
Bry,
This is the reason I am switching to Delrin.
Yes, I'm pretty sure same material. Definitely Delrin.
I wonder if a delrin and carbontex combination would be best...delrin where the rachet is and carbontex between the delrin and main gear.
I believe you're missing the point my friend, we're trying to do away with friction under the gear, well I am anyway. I have other jigmasters with roller bearing, but it's just too much work to install, the Delrin is very easy to do.
Your best bet is to have a reel with a carbon fiber washer for under the gear and one with a Delrin washer. Give them a shot comparing the two and let me know what you think.
I need a scientific way for some type of comparision... I need to think about this.
Don't make it too complicated,...its not. Remove the carbon washer under the gear and replace it with a Delrin washer and see for yourself if the reel feels smoother. That's all there is to it, nothing more.