I've got a Penn Senator 12/0 metal spool that, according to the handle, should be a 1980's model that I just recently bought.
When I got it, it seemed to be fine. Handle turned the spool, not problem. We took it out shark fishing this weekend and the reel pretty much froze up. We made one drop around probably 200-250 yards or so. Caught a fish on a different rod and decided to reel them all in to check baits and this is when the 12/0 froze up.
The things I noticed when I took it apart:
It was full of old dried grease. I cleaned it completely and greased it.
The drag washers were hard and glazed over. I've ordered new drags to replace them.
The Penn 116L schematic showed 7 drags and there were only 5 in this reel, albeit 5 THICK washers.
After cleaning and putting it back together and taking apart several times it appears that the edge of the reel spool is sunken in slightly inside the side plates and that it's binding and rubbing a ring from the edge of the spool on the inside of the side plates.
Without the spool in place it's nice and smooth.
Any thoughts?
Yeah, I am also looking for a response to this one...
I got the same problem with the penn squidder 140 reel.
I serviced everything and the spool seemed sunken into the sideplate and the binding, etc...
Just throwing out a thought here: any chance you indeed have a 10/0 instead? The 12/0 should have 7 drag washers whereas the 10/0 (115L) will have 5. You said the reel was from the 80's, sure it's been worked on quite a bit and people often confuse the 115 and 116. Maybe the spool (or other parts) are incorrect? Not even sure if a 12/0 spool would fit or vise versa. Is it just wearing just one sideplate or both? If it is both, it could be a 12/0 with 10/0 frame posts. Just wanted to get some ideas out there for you to start a discussion!
Zoomie
I checked the posts and they are the nearly 4" posts from a 12/0, at least from the picture on the mysticparts.com site. One side plate says 12/0 and the other says "Senator", Penn Fishing Tackle Co, Philadelphia, PA with a boat catching a marlin. It's a 12/0 that I just bought from Joel B on the tx-shark site.
Also, from that site, one of the recommendations was to sight down the side of the spool and it would be obvious, but I can't see anything or just don't know what I'm looking at if it's a spread spool.
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
Make sure it's in retrieve mode on the eccentric lever, and the spool is seated properly on both sides before closing her up. spin the spool until it seats on the spindle. If there's warpage in either sideplate this could bring the ring to close to the spool I suppose. Are your bearings all the way in? Of course this is one of only two senators I haven't cracked open YET! The vintage 10/0's have five...that I know. Let us know what you figure out. Thanks
Dom
This one has the screw in "bearings" on each end. There are no ball bearings in the reel itself to replace.
Early 12/0s had 5 drag washers; later 12/0s had 7 HT-100 drag washers. You want the later system. The 115L is a 9/0, not a 10/0. The 10/0 and 12/0 have the same drag. The two reels are identical except for width.
i'm wondering if the spool split open under pressure from the line. you'd have to pull off all the line to check that one.
Okay, I'm back...
I am still at a lost when it comes to the spool appearing to be sunken (approx 1/16 of an inch) into the sideplate (for the squidder that I serviced, on both sidesplates) ??? I also wondered if the customer tried to modify the reel (reel came to me in pieces in a box). It can't be the wrong size support post because the reel seat also fits. Thus I suspect the spool must be wrong (too long); but how can it be the wrong size spool by simply being too long by 1/16 of an inch on both sides? ???
The bearing cap is all the way in on the right sideplate (handle side), and the only adjustable bearing is the one on the left sideplate.
Anyway, I decided to go to the beach and try testing the reel "in person" and see what is going on. I was able to cast the reel 100 yards :) then as I started reeling in the line, the reel started binding up and the cranking of the handle became very stiff :o.
Omegafoo....Here is a posible solution to the binding.
I checked the "side-to-side" play of the spool and found that it was very tight. I loosened the left side adjustable bearing cap and wha...lah... the binding was solved! The bearing cap spinned lose on its own and tighten the play of the spool as I casted or as I was reeling in. I got back home and called the fishing supply shops to find a new bearing cap. The guy at one of the shops told me "no, look at the bearing cap; you'll see vertical lines around the sleeve surronding the bearing cap. Take a pair of pliers and very carefully pinch the fins inward JUST A LITTLE. You don't want to snap off the fins. Those fins will apply pressure on the bearing cap and hold it steady so that it will not loosen up or tighten up on you. :) BINDING PROBLEM SOLVED.
Now, I am still confused about the sunken spool problem. I feel like just asking the customer to replace the spool since it is old, rusted, and a little warped. I just can't explain how the spool grew in length to allow it to have the tiny gap between the sideplates. ???
Franky,
Glad you got the binding issue fixed :) Do you know anyone with a 12/0... this way you can throw the spool you've been having trouble with on that to see for sure if it's a warpage in the side plates or in the spool. The spool didn't grow a 1/16th of an inch if you don't see bent edges. I still think it's in the sideplates. I bought a 16/0 recently that has warped sideplates...Alan recommended I take a bastard file to it, but haven't had a chance yet. I keep getting stuck working on others reels :( I have over 25 senators from the 1/0 to 16/0 and haven't found a warped spool yet (though, I know they exist) I have, on the other hand, had 4 warped sideplates. Let us know what you come up with. BTW, I mentioned checking the "bearings" to make sure they are all the way in... I meant bushing and bearing. Glad you figured that part out. I have had 3 people in the past 2 months come to me asking why their spool didn't spin or spun loosely, and it was that spool bushing/bearing too tight or too loose. Good Luck
Dom
I have seen quite a few warped spools on the smaller (1/0, 2/0, and 3/0) Senators; they just don't hold mono well. But I've yet to see a bad spool on one of the larger Senators...
Quote from: broadway on August 04, 2010, 12:30:22 AM
Franky,
Glad you got the binding issue fixed :) Do you know anyone with a 12/0... this way you can throw the spool you've been having trouble with on that to see for sure if it's a warpage in the side plates or in the spool. The spool didn't grow a 1/16th of an inch if you don't see bent edges. I still think it's in the sideplates.
Dom
Thanks for the reply Dom. 8)
Actually, I do not have a 12/0. I was working on a penn squidder with the same issues (binding and sunken spool) described by Omegafoo's original post. Hopefully my experimental findings and solution will be able to help him resolve his binding isssue with his 12/0 as well.
In regards to the sideplate being warped, I also thought about that posibility. However, the gap between the spool's edge and the sideplate is 1/16th of an inch equally all around the spool because the spool is pushed into the sideplate. This amazingly occurs on both sides of the spool; thus making me wonder if the spool grew (which I know it couldn't have). ;)???
See, if I were to shim the right sideplate so that the spool's edge will be even to the right sideplate, then I would have 2/16 of an inch on the left sideplate equally all around the spool. ???
Anyway, I'll keep trying...If I find another solution, I'll post the results. :)
franky,
The side play on the 12/0 is non-existent. I can take the bushing on each end out and there is still no side play. The spool is binding on both of the side plates.
Ok, just trouble shooting here, both of the chrome beauty rings are in, right? Does the spool spin true, or does it wobble?
Quote from: omegafoo on August 04, 2010, 02:30:07 PM
franky,
The side play on the 12/0 is non-existent. I can take the bushing on each end out and there is still no side play. The spool is binding on both of the side plates.
Hmmm. ??? That does not sound normal. I believe, or at least thought, that all conventional reels have the ability to adjust for the side-to-side play with the spools.
The only thing that I can think of is (like Cortez Conversions) says...its gotta be something external as opposed to something internal. Did you check to see if both sideplates have the crome sideplate rings (2 on each side for a total of 4 chrome sideplate rings)? This is the only thing that could possibly affect the length of the overall reel (unless the spool grew in length ;D)
If the reel free spooled when you first got it; and now it is dab smack "end-to-end" on both sides of the spool with absolutely no play (even if you totally remove both of the bearing caps)...Dude, you got me ??? Sounds like you got to get longer support post and reel seat, or you got to get a new shorter spool.
Btw, how much gap are you talking about when you say space between the spool and the sideplate ring. Is it like mine...1/16th of an inch? or is it more?
Sorry about the confusion, Franky. I was referring to the 12/0 (Omegafoo). I'm gonna take apart a 9/0 tonight for a cleaning, and will put some thought into it. Are we sure it's the right spool?
Dom
I've taken a known flat piece of sheet metal and laid it on thesideplates and if it is warped you will see the light especially if you use a flashlight and you can also use it to find a bent spool.Just my 2 cents ,works for me.
I have the same old school senator 12/0 as omegafoo
with the 5 thick drag washers and chrome on bronze spool.
my handle (right) side plate is broken and needs replacing.
The old side plate had screw threads for a bushing.
The new side plate has no threads but has place for a bearing and cover instead.
my question is: Can i replace old side plate with the new side plate and bearing and get away with not having to buy the newer aluminium spool aswell?
if i have to replace the spool, there goes my budget long range kite flying reel for kite fishing.
I have access to a lathe and milling machine if the old spool can be modified to fit the new plate and bearing.
Hello MetroFail, welcome to the site.
You have a tough one there, the new plate will not work with your spool, too bad, there are lots of them for sale. I checked my parts and only have the left side plate. Those plates are not easy to find, maybe someone here can help you out :-\. I've seen some reels as yours in rough shape go for around $100 on ebay, but never seen one of those plates.
All you can do is to put that reel aside and hope that a plate will show up :-\, I'll keep a eye out.
Good luck to you.
Sal
Thanks for the clarification Alto Mare.
i often read posts on this site, but today i decided to join
Things get a little tougher since i live in South Africa. so i may have a little more difficulty getting parts
i think this penn senator has turned out to be a bit of a bust.
I will ask around for that side plate, but it doesnt sound like i have all that good odds of finding one.
All the other parts seem to be the same?
unless i can have one cut from an autocad replica via CnC equiptment.
I have a shipment of parts coming this week and i believe that there are about a dozen 12/0 plates with it. The plates might all be the newer stock, but you never know :-\, I'll let you konw . Shipping to you might be a killer though, but let me see if I get lucky and receive one first.
Quote from: MetroFail on September 09, 2012, 08:01:16 PM
Thanks for the clarification Alto Mare.
i often read posts on this site, but today i decided to join
Things get a little tougher since i live in South Africa. so i may have a little more difficulty getting parts
i think this penn senator has turned out to be a bit of a bust.
I will ask around for that side plate, but it doesnt sound like i have all that good odds of finding one.
All the other parts seem to be the same?
unless i can have one cut from an autocad replica via CnC equiptment.
[/quote
Hi it should not be difficult to find Penn parts in South Africa . We just need to get the local agents , to do their job correctly !!!!
Ever since Purefishing has taken over the previous agent. Its getting a serious problem to get any spares from them ???? Hope fully it will be sorted soon .]
Thanks very much that would be greatly appreciated.
i dnt think postage will be too terrible. i got 1000m spool of braid posted here for $20 once
i have put up a wanted add on sealine.co.za just incase.
that would be awesome if you could help me out with a side plate
Fritz is spot on about that agent, i've been trying to order parts from them since Nov 2011 ,for the senator in question, and all i have ever gotten are poor excuses from beyond/pure fishing.
Frtiz has been helping me locally but with little luck.
Penn International should seriously consider revoking purefishings rights as sole distributer for their products here in South Africa. Penn are loosing their customer base due to the total lack of after sales service
Hello MetroFail, I just received the box and no luck with the plate. The part list was acctually wrong, I was expecting 12 plates and I received 12 beauty rings instead. There was one 12/0 plate but it was the newer type.
Sorry, Sal
What are you doing, Sal, trying to corner the market on old Penn parts. ;) I hope you remember your old buddies when we need an obsolescent, impossible-to-find part. ;)
Photo of the Month? ;D
Sal, what the...going into the parts business?
YES!!!!! Photo of the month!!!!!!!
Sal, are you the sole Penn Parts distributor For the state of Pennsylvania!!!!!!!!
Holy Moly, what a photo!!!
Wayne
Wow!!! ;D
Great stuff Sal - well done.
Sunken spool problem posibility.
Check reelstand cerefully,could possibly be bent slightly.
Had that problem once.
Buzzz
I had a few 12/0 Penns and Alan is right your problem is probably the spool spreading under the pressure of mono,the older spools were notorious for it.I have seen several older ones spread so taking the line off is usually the only way to check.Another way to check is to take the spool out of the reel,reassemble it and take the dimentions of the inside of the reel with calipers then check the spool with calipers,I bet you will find it to close to tolerance and the spool is your problem
Thanks for checking for me Sal, much appreciated.
thats a pretty serious load of parts you have got there wow.
I was wondering. i have friends who are fitters and turners and i myself have access to fitting and turning equipment.
you guys think it would be possible to replace the old bushing right side plate with a new bearing side plate and fit and turn a part to interface the bearing with the old spool??
I reckon it would be possible provided the bushing and bearing sit in roughly the same place on the side plate otherwise the spool will not be alingned correctly.
what you guys think? is that possible?
Anything is possible with the right tooling, a craftsman and time.
X2
X3
Thats what i will do.
it shall be crafted and the reel will be made whole again.
Quote from: MetroFail on September 12, 2012, 11:44:46 AM
I was wondering. i have friends who are fitters and turners and i myself have access to fitting and turning equipment. you guys think it would be possible to replace the old bushing right side plate with a new bearing side plate and fit and turn a part to interface the bearing with the old spool??
I reckon it would be possible provided the bushing and bearing sit in roughly the same place on the side plate otherwise the spool will not be alingned correctly.
what you guys think? is that possible?
What you are describing is possible. The problem won't be fixed, however. The problem is that the spool itself has been distorted. More than likely, the lateral (sideways) expansive pressure from the line has separated the flange where it is pressed onto the shaft. Unfortunately, when this happens, it causes the metal to fatigue/distort, and pressing the flange back will only last as long as there is no pressure against the spool. As soon as enough line is wound back on the spool with enough pressure, that flange will push out again. The more this happens, the easier it will be to push out. My experiences in trying to get the spool back together, by simply pushing the flanges back, has never been successful for the long term. Never. My conclusion has been that the only other practical way of dealing with the broken spool is to put the spool on a press, and then pressing and re-expanding the shaft metal so that it again presents a tight enough fit. Aside from the possibility of distorting/bending the shaft itself, there are other problems involved in this, so I have never attempted it.
I've also contemplated cutting a new shaft of the proper dimensions and pressing on the flanges. This would have a better likelihood of success than of re-pressing the old flange/shaft because the metal would not be fatigued and the dimensions correct for the fit. While I do have the machinery and know-how to do it, I no longer have the need for a 12/0 reel, so I've never tried it.
Again, the short answer is that what you are proposing will work, but it won't solve your problem. Your problem is not with the side plates or bushings, it's with the spool. I know that's not what you wanted to hear. Sorry.
Hey Makula, Omegafoo is the one with the busted spool.
im the guy with the busted side plate. my spool is A ok.
i have the super old bushings side plate 12/0 and i wasnt sure if the old 3 piece spool would take the new bearing side plate.
sorry im seem to have hijacked this thread.
Sweet, i will give this a shot. though i did email one of the guys at mysticparts.com and he says there is no reason why a new side plate shouldnt work with the 50's old spool according to his notes. no modification needed.
But if thats not the case im well prepared to fabricate or modify a piece
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
Metro, the new plate will not work with the old spool. Besides the ID on the new bearing being 1mm smaller, the shaft on your spool is @12mm too short. Here is a shot of what I'm talking about:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/002-2.jpg)
your left side of the spool is similar to the new one.
Sal
I see, your point is well made.
Fitting and turning a part to solve that problem is not going to be too difficult.
i didnt expect it to work off hand like you previously said.
Turning a shaft extention, held in place by 2 grub screws or even just put a pin through it, should crack it. that is a pretty simple turning job.
i have drill bits in 0.1mm intervals from 1 to 12mm so im sure this won't be to difficult to match the correct diameters if not, it can even be reamed or turned to size.
The reel is only going to be flying a fishing kite not fishing big fish so it should last
Thanks for pointing out the exact problem Sal.
i will go ahead and get the new plate and turn an extention for the spool
can you give me the dimensions of the new spools armature?
MetroFail, I'm going to advise you not to waste your time on that reel. I have been working with a friend, who is a good machinist for about a year now, some of the work is related to what you're trying to do. He still hasn't come up with a solution :-\.
Here is something that you might want to consider:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Penn-10-0-Senator-Big-Game-Saltwater-Fishing-Reel-/160878942316?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257521d86c
This reel, if purchased at the right price will give you extra parts and the option to convert your 12/0 into a narrower 10/0.
Sal
Thanks for the advice Sal, apprecaited.
but i can get this turning done for free, so im going to take a chance, if it doesnt work i havent really lost out that much.
But yeah a decent second hand senator, in place of the one i have, is on the cards if this fails. then atleast i will have spares from my current 12/0 for a second used 12/0
Getting reels off Ebay is pricey postage wise, also customs are mean.
it seems that guy wont ship to South Africa Either.
Thanks again, i will let you guys know how it turns out, no pun intended ;) but im prepared to take this risk in the spool modification
I understand Metro. Good luck with your project, I'm hoping that it will work out for you. Just in case it doesn't, you would still be helping all of us here and that's what this site is all about.
Sal
I'm pretty new here so I hope I'm not butting in, but I have two of the newer ball-bearing 12/0s and the spools on both have tiny little washers on the ends that allow you to centre the spool once the side-plates are screwed in place. These also ensure just the right amount of side-to-side play in the spools because, as you know, you can't adjust that as you could with the older screw in bushing.
I didn't know older 12/0 had bushings, so that shows me up! I'd only seen them on the older 9/0 and the black plate 6/0 and smaller.
But, perhaps a few of these washers on the right hand end of the spool shaft will centre the spool and the play can be adjusted by unscrewing the left hand bushing to compensate. Might be easier than machine work.
UKChris
Quote from: UKChris on September 26, 2012, 03:47:15 PM
I'm pretty new here so I hope I'm not butting in....
No you aren't, thank you.