Before I took about the reel it worked perfect but it needed some new grease. I serviced the reel and disassembled most of it. I put it back together and it feels like there is some play in the handle when pulling in a fish. It's a fairly new reel, I'm confident that it's not broken or missing anything. I tried tightening the side-plate and rotor nut but it didn't help. I checked and all the shims are between the main gear and bearing. Any advice? Thanks
Since most of the handles on spinners now tighten as you are rotating the handle as if you were retrieving, a few reasons why you may be encountering a loose handle could be a loose handle pin, crossed threads, or uneven mating surfaces between the main gear and the handle shaft. If you could include some pictures/video through photobucket.com, we might be able to remedy the problem through the forum. Otherwise, you order a new handle from Shimano, have it looked at by someone who works on reels locally or send it to Alan. Get back to us with a bit more info.
P.S. I am not alone when it comes to working on spinners, they can be a real pain. However, yours "should" be a, relatively, easy fix.
I'm busy all day tomorrow but I'll post up a video of the problem when I get a chance. Like I said it seemed fine before I took it apart. Can the rotor nut be put on upside down? It's driving me nuts; I really need this reel and now I can't bring it on my trip tomorrow.
It feels like there is play in both the handle and main gear. That's the only way I know how to describe it.
So I noticed on most of my spinners it seems that the handles have loosened over time. It seems to only be on ones with graphite frames. The really old ones were the worst. I went though them again and tightened everything. I also bought a go through ratchet set to make sure the rotor was tight enough.
I brought them to the local repair shop and they put a shim in under the bearing on the main gear. It made the problem slightly better. Why do my reels require more shims over time? I know that I didn't lose any.
Quote from: fatstriper on July 24, 2014, 04:39:29 PM
So I noticed on most of my spinners it seems that the handles have loosened over time. It seems to only be on ones with graphite frames. The really old ones were the worst. I went though them again and tightened everything. I also bought a go through ratchet set to make sure the rotor was tight enough.
I brought them to the local repair shop and they put a shim in under the bearing on the main gear. It make the problem slightly better. Why do my reels require more shims over time? I know that I didn't lose any.
Graphite frames loosen over time as they are slightly "elastic" eventually the stress enlarges any receptacle or it fatigues and cracks. Metal is subject to the same problem, it just depends on what alloy you use and how stiff it is and how well it holds it shape.
Metal costs more, graphite reels are more of a temporary disposable concept that provides a measure of value for a time which makes them economical, but not exactly lifetime purchases.
That makes sense. Most of them are only two/three years old but I use them constantly so I'm sure that doesn't help.
I'm assuming that the best, if only way, to combat the wobble is to keep adding shims.
Quote from: fatstriper on July 24, 2014, 06:05:40 PM
That makes sense. Most of them are only two/three years old but I use them constantly so I'm sure that doesn't help.
I'm assuming that the best, if only way, to combat the wobble is to keep adding shims.
I should add, that the gear material is also a factor. All of the price point reels are made of lesser materials that and the gears will wear and become loose which causes handle looseness as well. At some point the gears have to be replaced on virtually every spinning reel unless the very highest end (ie Penn Torque/Van Staal) or massively over engineered (ie Penn 704z).
My older 4500B series probably needs new gears. That reel has seen a lot of use.
I ordered some shims for the others, I'm confident that it will help.
Thanks again John.
So it's annoying to have to come back to this thread but here I am. Tonight I just took apart a brand new baitrunner (bought a month ago). It really needed some new grease.
Before I took it apart everything felt tight and the handle had no slop in it. After taking off the baitrunner switch, rotor, and sideplate, I added some grease. I then reassembled the reel. It is just like the others.... It is obviously something that I am doing wrong. I was very careful to not loose any pieces. I made sure that everything was tight.
The one the women fixed at the bait and tackle store feels great. It is definitely not a shim problem. Any input?
Describe the "slop" is it side to side or up and down?
We'll do our best to help :).
It feels as if the main gear is floating around. It also feels as if there is a little back play in the infinite antireverse.
It is hard for me to articulate the issue. I'm going to post a video like jonathan.han originally suggested. I'm going offshore fishing all day tomorrow and won't be back till really late, so it will take me a day to do it.
I should already be asleep but I got into one of those mindsets where I was determined to get it figured out.
Thanks
Ok, lemme clarify what I am looking for...
By "side to side" I mean when you push and pull, in and out towards the main gear is there slop? This is a shim issue for the handle shaft.
If it goes up and down and side to side when you wiggle it towards the rotor or towards the rear this can be a shimming of the pinion issue.
If you have some back play in the AR did you grease or oil it?
There is no movement "side to side. The gear does not move in towards to body of the reel.
The second type of movement is what I'm experiencing. My next move will be to get some shims for the pinions. I don't get it though because the reel I worked on last night has very little use. It worked perfect before I took it apart. Does that shim have to be positioned in a certain way?
I only put oil in my AR; however, when I first started out I greased my bearings that surround the pinion. I also put too much grease on my pinion gears. A few of them had a little bit of grease inside. I cleaned it out gently with a q-tip and reoiled.
Quote from: fatstriper on August 22, 2014, 01:28:11 AM
There is no movement "side to side. The gear does not move in towards to body of the reel.
The second type of movement is what I'm experiencing. My next move will be to get some shims for the pinions. I don't get it though because the reel I worked on last night has very little use. It worked perfect before I took it apart. Does that shim have to be positioned in a certain way?
I only put oil in my AR; however, when I first started out I greased my bearings that surround the pinion. I also put too much grease on my pinion gears. A few of them had a little bit of grease inside. I cleaned it out gently with a q-tip and reoiled.
Leave your Shimano Clutch dry, that will eliminate the back play. They come dry from the factory and Shimano says leave them dry. You can oil the inside of the sleeve next to the pinion but leave the rollers and springs dry.
Hard to say about shims, they can be added from right in front of the bearing that supports the pinion and other points along the drive train.
Did you take apart the worm gear and drive? sometimes that can lead to some looseness too.
Got it. I've been oiling all of mine. I will clean that out.
I did remove the worm from the stradic. On five baitrunners I removed most of the parts. The baitrunner D I did last night I only removed the sideplate and rotor though, it has the same problem.
Is it possible that the gears aren't meshing properly? I know that the baitrunner D has an elliptical oscillation gear that needs to be aligned with the main gear.
Is it possible that the rotor isn't seated correctly?
Quote from: fatstriper on August 22, 2014, 03:01:29 AM
Got it. I've been oiling all of mine. I will clean that out.
I did remove the worm from the stradic. On five baitrunners I removed most of the parts. The baitrunner D I did last night I only removed the sideplate and rotor though, it has the same problem.
Is it possible that the gears aren't meshing properly? I know that the baitrunner D has an elliptical oscillation gear that needs to be aligned with the main gear.
Is it possible that the rotor isn't seated correctly?
I'm not sure as I don't have enough experience to say for certain. With ellipticals as I am sure you are aware they have to be "synced" based on markings on the gears. If you get that right you should be golden, however, I have always wondered if that type of system gets a complimentary wear pattern that will change the feel after it gets put back a tiny bit differently like one tooth off.
With the worm gears I try to stay away from them if I can for similar reasons. They put pressure on the drivetrain to keep it tight. If it is put back differently than original I believe you can develop some slop. Take the side plate off and see if you can recreate the problem keeping an eye on the worm and pawl. I think another guy had trouble like this and it was the worm that was the source as he was testing it with the pawl on the far end where there normally is some play where the pawl has to flip and change directions. Also, if the pawl is worn you can get some slop as it functions to "shim" the drive train sorta kinda in the sense that it has to be tight for the drivetrain to feel right.
My first step will be to try shimming the pinions and see if it helps. I will also take a look at the worm.
I have been aligning the pin on the elliptical with the markings on the main gear for the D series. I can try playing with it. There could be a wear pattern that is affecting the way it feels. In learning more about these reels I prefer the B series with it's simpler design.
I'll put some time in this evening and try to get it sorted out. I'll give a call up to Surfland and see if Martha has the shims that I need on hand.
Thanks for your help again John. I'll let you know how it goes.
Surfland is a great shop. The 2 women can fix any reel. I just wish their website was better.
Seems like John is on target with his ideas.
There are issues with graphite wear over time, shims will help some, as will marking your gears before removal and cleaning.
When I was much younger, I studied and worked in electronics -- repairing TVs, stereos, radios, etc. The two older guys I learned from were masters at the diagnosis system called -- the process of elimination. Old school, dead simple, saves at least 90% of a repair guys time -- and fixes the problem correctly.
They both taught the age old system called Occoms Razor -- basically:
Occam's razor is more commonly described as 'the simplest answer is most often correct,' although this is an oversimplification. The 'correct' interpretation is that entities should not be multiplied needlessly.
Researchers should avoid 'stacking' information to prove a theory if a simpler explanation fits the observations. Occam's razor is the process of paring down information to make finding the truth easier.
This has stayed with me for all of my life, and is applied in many ways -- and is particularly useful when working on and repairing fishing reels.
Get as much explanation as possible from the owner of the reel, if feasible, as to what is wrong, when it went wrong, and their impression of the problem.
Then apply what you know from experience as to how that reel is engineered, built, materials used, weak points, types of situations that over-stress certain parts -- then start with the simplest and most common fixes.
I generally can repair 90% of the reels I work on efficiently and quickly. These have common issues. The other 10% end up taking 90% of my time.
Observation
Knowledge of how the reel should work
Experience
Information
Common Sense
One more thing:
Reels that advertise 6, 10, or 12 bearings are mostly just making up for the fact that they are usually graphite frames that will wear out quickly if not backed up by steel bearings.
Take an old Penn 700, 706, or 704Z -- with only one bearing. Since they are over engineered with high quality materials, simple proven design, and made out of superior metals -- they will last for 50+ years of hard use -- and still operate as new.
Just my own opinions.
Best,
Fred
If anyone reads this in the future, the issue with these reels was a shimming issue. The shims on the main gear were fine; however, shims needed to be added on the pinion gear. By doing this, I was able to remove all of the play that I was experiencing and the reels feel great now.