Hi Guys,
I am putting together a 113H, stainless dogs, stainless gear sleeve and Black Pearl stainless gear and pinion.
I am using a five stack inside the main gear using HT100 washers, do I use a standard HT100 washer under the main gear leaving the outside diameter as is, or do I have to reduce it to the outside diameter of the teeth on the gear sleeve.
Many thanks,
Mike.
Under high pressure a CF under washer can cause jerky drag if it has a larger OD than the minor diameter of the AR ratchet, I like to reduce the OD.
Hey Mike, I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that I do not use a carbon fiber washer for under the main gear anymore.
I actually just got done testing this reel, using a delrin for under the gear and one under the tension spring on top. The reel felt nice and smooth while reeling in 20lbs by turning the handle.
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/upgrades%20for%20others/018_zps6994cd50.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/upgrades%20for%20others/018_zps6994cd50.jpg.html)
Most members are still using a carbon fiber washer for under the gear, so I might be the only one using the delrin :-\ , all of my reels will have this set up.
If you did want to give it a try, just let me know and I'll send you a couple.
Cheers, Sal
Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2014, 02:45:33 PM
Under high pressure a CF under washer can cause jerky drag if it has a larger OD than the minor diameter of the AR ratchet, I like to reduce the OD.
Thanks for the advice Lee, this is the reel that has been waiting to be done since last year, I have been gathering parts to go with the ones you sent me, nearly there.
Mike.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 19, 2014, 03:22:24 PM
Hey Mike, I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that I do not use a carbon fiber washer for under the main gear anymore.
I actually just got done testing this reel, using a delrin for under the gear and one under the tension spring on top. The reel felt nice and smooth while reeling in 20lbs by turning the handle.
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/upgrades%20for%20others/018_zps6994cd50.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/upgrades%20for%20others/018_zps6994cd50.jpg.html)
Most members are still using a carbon fiber washer for under the gear, so I might be the only one using the delrin :-\ , all of my reels will have this set up.
If you did want to give it a try, just let me know and I'll send you a couple.
Cheers, Sal
Thank you Sal, I would love to give it a try, your the man, if you say they are good they must be good!
Like I said to Lee, this reel was thought about last year, just a few more bits to gather and I will put it together, will post photos of the build when it all happens.
Thanks again,
Mike.
Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2014, 02:45:33 PM
Under high pressure a CF under washer can cause jerky drag if it has a larger OD than the minor diameter of the AR ratchet, I like to reduce the OD.
A carbon fiber washer for under the gear will cause jerky drags, no matter what size.
Be cautious how you cut those, they might interfere with the dogs if OD is off.
Quote from: Jerseymic on July 19, 2014, 03:43:35 PM
Thank you Sal, I would love to give it a try, your the man, if you say they are good they must be good!
Like I said to Lee, this reel was thought about last year, just a few more bits to gather and I will put it together, will post photos of the build when it all happens.
Thanks again,
Mike.
I'll get some out to you.
On my 900h i am using alan's drag stack, which includes a carbon drag under the main gear. It is liquid smooth. That is the only comparison i have as my other reels currently use the factory penn fiber washer. But they arent so smooth as they werent greased with cals grease.
I will be doing the heavy drag/ run across the yard on the two new drag stacks i am putting together, one in my 12/0 and the other a 113hlw, to see how they work out.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 19, 2014, 03:46:16 PMA carbon fiber washer for under the gear will cause jerky drags, no matter what size.
Be cautious how you cut those, they might interfere with the dogs if OD is off.
The top of the ratchet needs to be smooth, no burs, and the CF washer OD needs to be smaller than the minor diameter of the gear sleeve AR ratchet. Non CF washers (Delrin) eliminate potential AR dog failure. I'm trying to find some Orcot sheet to test.
The washer for under the gear should act as a bearing not drags, and I just found out that an additional Derlin on top of the drag stack helps even more.
You guys use whatever you like, I'm not selling you anything...just my opinion.
I'm with Sal on the Delrin. I can immediately tell a difference in my 12/0's with a Delrin washer under the main gear. Much smoother. I persued this after seeing that one good sized shark destroys the under gear washer when its cf.
Are you guys cutting the Delron washer(s) dimensions to match the stock under gear washer? The OD is greater then the OD of the ratchet on the gear sleeve. The photo is of a 12/0 gear sleeve and stock under gear washer which measures about 30mm OD/16mm ID/1mm thickness. Daron, is the thickness a close match to the sheet you supplied? I'm looking forward to my sheet so I can test out my new punch set, and start trying the Delron in 12/0 and 14/0s.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 19, 2014, 03:47:51 PM
Quote from: Jerseymic on July 19, 2014, 03:43:35 PM
Thank you Sal, I would love to give it a try, your the man, if you say they are good they must be good!
Like I said to Lee, this reel was thought about last year, just a few more bits to gather and I will put it together, will post photos of the build when it all happens.
Thanks again,
Mike.
I'll get some out to you.
Thanks Sal,
Looks like I will be the first guy in the U.K. to have Delrin washers in my drags, what does it feel like having international fame ;D
Quote from: Jerseymic on July 19, 2014, 09:52:01 PM
Thanks Sal,
Looks like I will be the first guy in the U.K. to have Delrin washers in my drags, what does it feel like having international fame ;D
;D
Quote from: Tightlines666 on July 19, 2014, 09:45:46 PM
Are you guys cutting the Delron washer(s) dimensions to match the stock under gear washer? The OD is greater then the OD of the ratchet on the gear sleeve. The photo is of a 12/0 gear sleeve and stock under gear washer which measures about 30mm OD/16mm ID/1mm thickness. Daron, is the thickness a close match to the sheet you supplied? I'm looking forward to my sheet so I can test out my new punch set, and start trying the Delron in 12/0 and 14/0s.
I would make them the same as Penn stock, the "older Penn engineers" were smarter than us. The one I change in size is the 4-349. That one is .500" ID and .750" OD. The OD on mine is .880".
I got Delrin washers from Dawn and they seem to work very well under the gear. As for longevity, we'll have to wait a year or two till these get redone again.
cutting the Delrin washers the same size as the gear ratchet will not work, the washer will interfere with the dogs.
You could make them a little smaller, but this is what I would recommend:
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/upgrades%20for%20others/002_zpsdc4ddbe8.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/upgrades%20for%20others/002_zpsdc4ddbe8.jpg.html)
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/upgrades%20for%20others/007_zps2a17993e.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/upgrades%20for%20others/007_zps2a17993e.jpg.html)
Cutting them a 1/8" wider than the ratchet, same as the larger Senators, should keep the dogs happy.
Thanks for posting that!
The dog(s) should indeed be happy.
Those are some wicked looking ratchet designs for the larger senators. Are these SS sleeves (and I'm assuming dogs) in production? Or did they come from a limited 'experimental' run?
Yes they are nice sleeves, I'm not sure if they're going into production.
Did you notice the additional teeth?
About the larger Delrin washers, I do not have punches that size, I scribe the sheet using the stock washer to trace and cut the OD with scissors.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 20, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
Yes they are nice sleeves, I'm not sure if they're going into production.
Did you notice the additional teeth?
About the larger Delrin washers, I do not have punches that size, I scribe the sheet using the stock washer to trace and cut the OD with scissors.
Have you still got your lathe Sal? Why not buy some delrin round stock and turn them? I will be doing this for my 6/0 build. Will do a much neater job, and you can tweak the washer thickness if need be.
Rothmar, you're right, that would do a much better job. My mini lathe is a pain to set up, or maybe it's just me that don't have the patience ;D. my wife is complaining about me making a mess in the basement, I don't have a garage where I live.
The washer doesn't need to be perfect, you'll get away if it's a little out of shape.
By the way, I just put together a 112H, having that washer 1/8" to 3/16" larger than the ratchet, really helps, the dogs and drags are working nicely.
I believe you guys would get away even with a larger washer, maybe 1/8" away from the main gear teeth on all the gears would be a good .
Quote from: Tightlines666 on July 20, 2014, 11:59:23 AM
Thanks for posting that!
The dog(s) should indeed be happy.
Those are some wicked looking ratchet designs for the larger senators. Are these SS sleeves (and I'm assuming dogs) in production? Or did they come from a limited 'experimental' run?
Those ss sleeves should be available before the end of the year. Sal and me are the only ones that have them to the best of my knowledge. Lee's ss dogs are a perfect match for these.
I will be sending your Delrin tomorrow John. This reel look familiar?
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/darondyer/IMG_23611_zpsc43df218.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/darondyer/IMG_23621_zps694eb396.jpg)
Lee's 12/0 dogs are 14/0 length, they are a perfect match to this ratchet.
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/darondyer/IMG_23951_zps861aaf55.jpg)
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/darondyer/IMG_23591_zpsb7abdeb2.jpg)
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 20, 2014, 02:59:02 PM
Rothmar, you're right, that would do a much better job. My mini lathe is a pain to set up, or maybe it's just me that don't have the patience ;D. my wife is complaining about me making a mess in the basement, I don't have a garage where I live.
The washer doesn't need to be perfect, you'll get away if it's a little out of shape.
By the way, I just put together a 112H, having that washer 1/8" to 3/16" larger than the ratchet, really helps, the dogs and drags are working nicely.
I believe you guys would get away even with a larger washer, maybe 1/8" away from the main gear teeth on all the gears would be a good .
"She who must be obeyed" is not happy with the machining mess. Bummer, they are messy things no doubt the lathes. Pity you don't have a garage.
Thanks for the sizing tips with the under-gear washers. Will certainly give that a go.
BTW, those ratchets with the extra teeth look unreal. Would love one for the 6/0.
Daron mentioned that he had a 5' piece of Delrin and thought that it would be too much for him so he spread it out to members. I needed to ordered another 5' :-\, I have too many friends ;D.
Sal don't look now but you are a general contractor. Why not just build a garage? Dominick
Lookin good Daron. Glad to see you're improving that reel. I'd love to hear that reel with the double dogs and modified gear sleeve in action.
I just got my laminated CF sheet, and my punch set today. I just realized my 1" and 1 1/4" punches are not gonna be big enough for what I had in mind though. Guess I'll make a template and use the scissors, and Dremel.
John,
I punched my Delrin the same as the stock 12/0 drags. I will make it bigger on the 14/0. The Delrin that will be heading your way tomorrow is .030. The stock undergear I took out measured .034.
These are 12/0 pieces. 1 1/4" OD, 5/8" ID.(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/darondyer/IMG_24521_zps74ad6ec4.jpg)
Quote from: Dominick on July 22, 2014, 04:15:25 AM
Sal don't look now but you are a general contractor. Why not just build a garage? Dominick
Dominick, I do have a garage, but I need to drive to it.
I also have a nice 10'x16' shed in back of my house, that one is also loaded with tools :-\
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/myoldpictures097_zps59af3696.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/myoldpictures097_zps59af3696.jpg.html)
You should remember it, you've been here ::) ;D
Seriously though, I'm not that excited about that lathe, It does do a very nice job on tiny parts though, but not good enough for me. :-\
I'll think about a better one for when I retire, if I'm still around ;D.
Hi Sal, I agree I just put a Delrin undergear in a 113 and it seems smoother. I worry about the C/F washer swelling or shredding and interfering with the dog. I guess I'll have to change over the whole arsenal. They mostly have the standard Penn fiber washers because of my fear of the C/F undergear.
Pardon my question, the purpose of drags is to provide a resistance to torque between the gear sleeve and the main gear. The under gear washer does just that, and anything on top of the stack turns with the star wheel and handle. Anything to reduce friction in these areas seems to be counter intuitive to the performance of the drag stack in general. Is my thinking skewed?
I tend to agree with Keta, that if things are deburred, there wont be an issue, but onthe other hand i have heard of penn ht 100's be crushed and destroyed, while the smooth drag cf washers can take the pressure.
CF under the main gear provides no drag. It might cause a little resistance, we are trying to avoid that and the jerky drags. Most all star drag reels have a fiber washer underneath from the factory. We are just improving on that. Put a CF of any type under your 12/0 main gear, when you catch a fish big enough to pull some locked down drag, It will be shredded. I think the delrin is the next best thing than actually having a roller bearing under the gear.
We can't come up with upgrades IF we don't understand how the reels work. A Delrin washer for under the main gear will be one of the best upgrade you'll be doing to your reel.
The washer for under the gear should act as a bearing, not drag.
The simplest way would be for you to install one, compare it to others and forget about everything else.
Do get back to us and let us know if you like it.
Sal
Quote from: Shark Hunter on July 23, 2014, 04:43:54 PM
CF under the main gear provides no drag. It might cause a little resistance, we are trying to avoid that and the jerky drags. Most all star drag reels have a fiber washer underneath from the factory. We are just improving on that. Put a CF of any type under your 12/0 main gear, when you catch a fish big enough to pull some locked down drag, It will be shredded. I think the delrin is the next best thing than actually having a roller bearing under the gear.
You will notice smoother drags on small reels as well ;)
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 23, 2014, 04:52:10 PM
We can't come up with upgrades IF we don't understand how the reels work. A Delrin washer for under the main gear will be one of the best upgrade you'll be doing to your reel.
The washer for under the gear should act as a bearing, not drag.
The simplest way would be for you to install one, compare it to others and forget about everything else.
Do get back to us and let us know if you like it.
Sal
This is where i get lost then. Main gear to gear sleeve interface. Yes, it sees the same exact pressure as the rest of the drag stack (at a higher psi, due to a smaller area) it is also only slipping at the same time and same rate the drag washers do. Delrin will cause this to happen sooner at a specific drag setting.
Maybe my concept of drags is slightly twisted.
I understand he necessity of smooth drag application, the smoother it works, the easier the fight is on every bit of gear and person attached to the fish.
But if i am not mistaken we also want as much drag as practical to fight whatever we might hook to, and taking away another friction surface reduces the a fair percentage of drag.
I have built several automatic transmissions, the drag stack is very similar to a multi disc clutch pack in a transmission, the only place bearings are used in the clutch pack is to keep side loading and end play kf the shaft to a minimum. The same principals apply to the drag stack, the toothed end of the gear sleeve to the drag star is a shaft, the drags prevent its turning against the main gear. Whether the washers are inside or outside the main gear and interact with the gear sleeve in a way that causes traction to the washer. The only place i could see a delrin washer is under gear sleeve, between it and the bridge.
Am i overlooking a key operation to the drag stack?
I am new to the big reel fishing game and seeing what ittakes to upgrade or replace drag washers and such, but mechanical things i am very familiar to, as well as the theories behind their operation. (No, not an engineer, mercedes benz technician, auto hobbyist)
I dont want to sound like i am arguing, merely trying to understand why this is being referred to as a "better" practice. And if it for sure works, i will need enough delrin to whip up 2 for a 12/0 and one for. 113hlw.
I Tell you what crackerman,
Send me a PM with your address, and I will send you a piece of delrin.
The drag happens inside the gear, not out of it.
Quote from: johnachak on July 23, 2014, 01:24:26 PM
Hi Sal, I agree I just put a Delrin undergear in a 113 and it seems smoother. I worry about the C/F washer swelling or shredding and interfering with the dog. I guess I'll have to change over the whole arsenal. They mostly have the standard Penn fiber washers because of my fear of the C/F undergear.
Glad you're giving it a shot John but we're not done yet ;D.
I'm currently testing a Derlin spacer
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/003_zps2fd48b18.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/003_zps2fd48b18.jpg.html)
These will make cranking the star under stress much easier, the will also help with keeping the gear aligned and best of all.... smoothness.
I'm liking the results so far, the reel feels very smooth. I'm really pushing it hard and looks like the Delrin is holding up nicely.
I'm trying to find the proper size, but not having luck, I'm getting very close though, nothing that a drill and sandpaper couldn't fix.
The guys at McMaster-Carr are awesome, John sent me some samples for me to play with.
Of course these won't work with the easy access drag system for the larger Senators, but McMaster-Carr does carry solid round stock for our machinists here to work with ;D, I'm sure they could make us some cool looking top hats ;)
I know someone taking out the Bearing on Newell's & replacing them with Delrin.
Mike
Hay Mike, is he a member? Let him show you a pic, I would love to see it.
Quote from: bluefish69 on July 26, 2014, 03:15:58 PM
I know someone taking out the Bearing on Newell's & replacing them with Delrin.
Mike
Good move, for most reel applications roller bearings are not needed and can be a PIA.
The spacer for the 113H is very close, just a little sanding on the ID
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/005_zps3fcb9e03.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/005_zps3fcb9e03.jpg.html)
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/007_zps27445df1.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/007_zps27445df1.jpg.html)
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/009_zpsee533d2c.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/009_zpsee533d2c.jpg.html)
Reels feel very nice, the sleeve acts as a spacer and bearing.
Will Delrin compress?
Quote from: Keta on July 26, 2014, 04:06:03 PM
Will Delrin compress?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#8574kac/=t08esg
Which Delron composite are you guys using? PTFE base? I have a lot of confidence in the white washers Penn uses throughout their International II line of reels. Does anyone know what this stuff is exactly? Seems a bit more flexable/plyable then the black stuff Daron sent from McMasterCarr.
Hi Sal
ABU have been using a "plastic" spacer under the star wheel for decades. Have a look at the tutorials from Big T for 7000 and 10000 reels.
They are great engineers those Swedes.
It would be interesting to hear Mr Tani`s opinion on the washer under the main gear.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on July 26, 2014, 10:04:16 PM
Which Delron composite are you guys using? PTFE base? I have a lot of confidence in the white washers Penn uses throughout their International II line of reels. Does anyone know what this stuff is exactly? Seems a bit more flexable/plyable then the black stuff Daron sent from McMasterCarr.
This is what I'm using
http://www.mcmaster.com/#acetal-homopolymer-sheets/=t0esd9
Ultra-Wear-Resistant PTFE-Filled Delrin® Acetal Resin
The Penn thrust washers are good, but too soft. I like these better,black is better than white.
Quote from: basto on July 26, 2014, 10:38:50 PM
Hi Sal
ABU have been using a "plastic" spacer under the star wheel for decades. Have a look at the tutorials from Big T for 7000 and 10000 reels.
They are great engineers those Swedes.
It would be interesting to hear Mr Tani`s opinion on the washer under the main gear.
Basto, I couldn't find any pictures on the 7000, but did find some on the ABU 10000. That sleeve is more like a cover plate, unless I'm looking at the wrong place.
The spacer on the 113H is working as a bearing and spacer for the drag stack. If you look at the specs you will see that the Delrin has some very good numbers on when compressed, it will still work as a bearing with very little friction...almost none.
OK, sorry to confuse things by bringing ABU into this. We had best stay with PENN for this. Good luck with it. You are a pioneer.
Basto
No, not a problem Basto, I always value your opinion. Besides, an ABU is always welcomed ;)
Sal,
With the Delrin rated to 180 F, on some of the bigger reels, don't we risk failure at high drag setting?
Here's a photo of a plastic spacer I think Basto was referring to. The black plastic one is from an older ABU 7000C, the crome one is from a later 7000 - not sure which model.
Upside down, showing recessed centre, the perimeter sits on the spring washers
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IcqoTOdGa2w/U9Sa16KVtrI/AAAAAAAAACw/1SZY11THy6s/s800/DSCF2290.jpg)
In place showing top keyed to the gear sleeve
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-O4ThUFuSnNs/U9Sa-aQNUSI/AAAAAAAAAC4/4H-C01qlbr8/s800/DSCF2291.jpg)
Bearing and spacers that replace the plastic bushing or spacer in a 7000 C3. The spacers transfer the pressure through the inner sleeve of the bearing
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7W_Eabh9LWk/U9SbCdIol2I/AAAAAAAAADA/muGJ5cnK7kM/s800/DSCF2292.jpg)
And an older ABU 5000 plastic spacer - photo from the Ambassadeur 5000 tutorial by LLCC
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-t7nX0bKLS4s/U9Sb4o0BeSI/AAAAAAAAADQ/FHtIvmuIbAo/s800/ABU%25205000%2520spacer.jpg)
Thanks for the pics mhc, very nice.
Quote from: maxpowers on July 27, 2014, 03:41:29 AM
Sal,
With the Delrin rated to 180 F, on some of the bigger reels, don't we risk failure at high drag setting?
Good question Michael, we will need to find out for ourselves by fishing the reel, the smoother the reel the lesser the heat build up.
I have many calluses in my hands and could probably only hold 180 degree for a second or two :-\.
I believe they are talking long term on the 180 degrees
http://www.sdplastics.com/delrin/delrin[1].pdf
A smoother reel will help with heat build up.
Hi Sal I am wondering how a washer of this material would work on the SS spinners . The washer under the spool . currently I'm using HT-100's with no problems but it might make for a smoother drag. Have you tried this yet? Great work by the way Doug
Quote from: Doug on July 27, 2014, 01:43:38 PM
Hi Sal I am wondering how a washer of this material would work on the SS spinners . The washer under the spool . currently I'm using HT-100's with no problems but it might make for a smoother drag. Have you tried this yet? Great work by the way Doug
Yes Doug, I did install them in the spinners as well. All reels that I fish with will have the Delrin washer, I believe in this product.
Sal
mhc...Thanks!
Basto, I just want to mention that the spacers do look similar, but the one on the Senator is not keyed.
I would be more comfortable using one not keyed, as on the Senator.
Quote from: mhc on July 27, 2014, 07:12:51 AM
And an older ABU 5000 plastic spacer - photo from the Ambassadeur 5000 tutorial by LLCC
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-t7nX0bKLS4s/U9Sb4o0BeSI/AAAAAAAAADQ/FHtIvmuIbAo/s800/ABU%25205000%2520spacer.jpg)
I have often replaced that spacer with a bearing. There is one that fits perfectly in ID and OD, but you would need to add a couple of thrust washers above/below the bearing. I do not like that bushing spinning while cranking that can wear the bushing and make the handle wobbly. I believe the bearing size that I used was 8 x 13 x 4 mm. A taller bearing would be better but I didn't have one, nor I don't know if a taller bearing was available.
I'm not with you on this Bryan, a Derlin bushing is way better than a roller bearing. Keep in mind Derlin won't wear that easy this isn't just plain plastic, this stuff is also used to make gears.
On my reels, I like to have the OD and Id spinning, in case one gets jammed.
I don't believe that this material is Delrin. This material was grooved and scratched up by the sideplate collar. By replacing this piece with a bearing, the shaft is constantly held in place with the shaft spin versus the spinning shaft and sleeve rotating in the collar. If I could find the right bearing size to replace my spacer in my Penn reels, I would use a bearing. That way I would have additional support on the bridgeplate's gear sleeve to help share the load to the side plate. This is just my opinion. Just looking at it from the mechanical forces and providing additional support to the gear sleeve other than that one point on the bridge plate.
I understand, that is exactly why I'm doing it. I still disagree with you, a derlin sleeve is a much better choice that a bearing there, just as the washer for under the gear instead of a carbon fiber washer.
You have your opinion and I have mine ;) ;D.
I like the idea of a Delron spacing sleeve here because it seems to me that it will act like a bearing, yet stand up to the side load applied by the star, and should also deal well with any water/salt intrusion. However, Brian has a valid point, if I'm not misunderstanding him, that supporting the shaft/gear sleeve in the horizontal plain (with respect to the gear sleeve) will help to reduce side loading on the gear shaft/sleeve. I'm not sure if it is practicle to fit a 2 piece bushing around the gear sleeve and tight with the side plate on the senators to accomplish both goals simultaneously? Might warrant a bit more thought. I have seen a lot of loose/so only drive shafts on the bridges of larger senators in particular. It would be nice to be able to support the gear sleeve/shaft with a bearing or bushing or combination where it passes through the side plate. I know you guys have looked at this issue before though. I agree with Lee that a Delron spacing sleeve will help to isolate(/smooth out) the drag assembly and handle the side loading though.
We are trying to do the same, but I still say derlin will do it better than a bearing. I'm just wondering what makes you think that a derlin sleeve wouldn't keep the gear sleeve stiffer than without, those can be squeezed and still work as a bearing.
Johndtuttle talked about the roller bearing over by "The Tank" about a year ago, he actually installed it on his 113H.
A roller bearing is useless unless you have it snug. For this particular installation, having it snug will work against you, you won't be able to adjust the drags. Derlin is more forgiving there.
Sorry John I was answering Bryan and noticed that you said the same... well, in a more refined way ;D.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 26, 2014, 01:12:08 PM
Quote from: johnachak on July 23, 2014, 01:24:26 PM
Hi Sal, I agree I just put a Delrin undergear in a 113 and it seems smoother. I worry about the C/F washer swelling or shredding and interfering with the dog. I guess I'll have to change over the whole arsenal. They mostly have the standard Penn fiber washers because of my fear of the C/F undergear.
Glad you're giving it a shot John but we're not done yet ;D.
I'm currently testing a Derlin spacer
These will make cranking the star under stress much easier, the will also help with keeping the gear aligned and best of all.... smoothness.
I'm liking the results so far, the reel feels very smooth. I'm really pushing it hard and looks like the Delrin is holding up nicely.
I'm trying to find the proper size, but not having luck, I'm getting very close though, nothing that a drill and sandpaper couldn't fix.
The guys at McMaster-Carr are awesome, John sent me some samples for me to play with.
Of course these won't work with the easy access drag system for the larger Senators, but McMaster-Carr does carry solid round stock for our machinists here to work with ;D, I'm sure they could make us some cool looking top hats ;)
Wow, Sorry Sal I was away a few days. I wonder how long those will hold up? If they don't compress and swell up. I normally make sure I brush grease on the top of the spacer, on the bottom of the star and on both side of any Bellville(s). With the Delrin tube we are free to cut it to length. I like that.
Another thought that comes to mind regarding the use of a Delron spacer/washer/bushing on the top of the drag stack on larger senators is that...
It seems it would be best to ensure there are stainless steel washers in direct contact with the spring washer, since these will remain more ridgid and ensure the drag curve is maintained through even application of pressure. I think fitting a Delron washer in on top of the stack would work great provided SS washers are still utilized for direct contact with the top CF washer in the stack, and steel is utilized directly adjacent to the spring washer. The setup would of course vary by model.
Yes, a stainless steel washer is a good idea when using a sleeve, but on larger senators from 4/0 to 16/0 I would like someone to make us a Delrin top hat, no sleeve or washer, the Delrin top hat should be ok gliding over the Belleville, they could make it nice and beefy for us. Not all 4/0's and 6/0's will take them though, only the ones with easy access drag system.
Hey Johnachack, I've been testing those on a jigmaster and are holding up nicely, we need to see if they will do the same on a larger reel. The Delrin is also used to make gears, I'm thinking they'll do just fine.
Some power drive that we probably use here have Delrin gears.
Sal, any chance of putting up a sketch, with dimensions, for the top hats, namely the 4/0 and 6/0's?
Have never seen one, but would like to turn a couple up.
Quote from: Rothmar2 on July 30, 2014, 10:11:18 PM
Sal, any chance of putting up a sketch, with dimensions, for the top hats, namely the 4/0 and 6/0's?
Have never seen one, but would like to turn a couple up.
Sure thing Rothmar, as soon as I get a chance.
I just want you to know that I still visit your page to look at some of your projects that you've been doing, you do some nice work my friend.
here are a couple of shots of what it looks like:
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/004_zps08e62445.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/004_zps08e62445.jpg.html)
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/pescatore3/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/005_zpsd55d184c.jpg) (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/pescatore3/media/custom%20parts%20for%20fishing%20reel/005_zpsd55d184c.jpg.html)
And the dimensions:
for the 4/0 (113H ) ID 12.60mm OD 29mm height 8 mm
for the 6/0 (114H ) ID 14.20mm OD 31.45mm height 10.65 mm
for the 9/0 (115 )... same as the 6/0
for the 10/0 and 16/0 we'll worry about it later, those would only need a washer, I'm thinking 3.5mm in thickness.
No rush Sal, will be sourcing some larger Delrin stock ASAP, won't be home from work for a few days yet.
Have a bit more to add to that thread as soon as I can upload the photos I have taken.
I really like where this thread has gone, and will be following up with these mods as well.
Thanks again for showing us all the way.
And thanks for the pix and dimensions!
Hey Johnachack, I've been testing those on a jigmaster and are holding up nicely, we need to see if they will do the same on a larger reel. The Delrin is also used to make gears, I'm thinking they'll do just fine.
Some power drive that we probably use here have Delrin gears.
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Where did you find the Delrin tube? How bad is it to cut? Dremel cutoff wheel maybe?
McMaster Carr sells rods of Delrin. Blocks, Balls, Sheets. They have it! ;)
I couldn't find a Delrin Spacer. I found glass filled etc. but not Delrin. What did you use as a search term?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-acetal-homopolymer-hollow-rods/=t4lf0k
Quote from: johnachak on August 03, 2014, 07:23:03 PM
I couldn't find a Delrin Spacer. I found glass filled etc. but not Delrin. What did you use as a search term?
Hold up on the spacer John, I'm still trying to find the proper size. I had to sand the ID on the jigmaster and the 4/0. The 4/0 was close but still needed some sanding.
It would probably be better to get someone here to make us some that would fit nice and snug.
Just replace the washer for under the gear for now, that would already be a good improvement for these reels.
Thanks Sal. I bought a strip of the delrin and made a undergear washer for my converted 506hs with steel 4:1. No loss in the drag pressure(~25 lbs with the dremelled ears) and the reel is really smooth.
Thanks Sharkhunter. Sal, I'll hold off. I ordered my Delrin undergear washers from Dawn. They were reasonably priced and they fit perfectly. Thanks again for all the excellent info! You guys are amazing.