I had some time so I pulled down one of my antique reels as shown above. To my surprise it has a "double dog" spring loaded anti-reverse system in this very old reel. Nothing on this reel was magnetic and its larger than a Penn 6/0.
The "bushing" on top of the drag stack is actually a roller bearing!
It has 2 drag washers, a very loud clicker, and is very heavy with mostly SS parts.
Cool Reel..!!
A few more pictures..
The Templars were good reels. Not top of the line, but certainly considered to be better than the Senators in terms of design and workmanship. Top of the Pfleuger line were the Atlapacs.
The 1419 3/4 is about the same size as a 4/0 (slightly larger, but not as large as 6/0). The 1420 1/2 is the same size as a 9/0.
A unique feature was the incorporation of a shear pin on the drag disk plate. This was included so that the pin would shear before damage was done to the gears (from too much drag). It was a good protective feature, but it severely limits the drag. The spools were three-piece and my guess (from use) is that they were stronger than the Senators. In good condition, they were very smooth. The double dogs design gave me the idea to do double dog on the Senators years ago. Did one just to have it sounding more like the Templar. The ratchet sprocket has a very large diameter with fine teeth so it produces a much higher sound than the Senators when line goes out. Materials were high quality.
Thanks for sharing. I almost bought a few of these just to check out the insides. I like the double dog design..looks like that gear sleeve has quite a few teeth there. Interesting they chose a CF under gear washer and a bearing on top of the drag stack. Bet the bridges last a long time...seems like the gear sleeve is pretty well supported. Wonder if the shear pin could be replaced, and drag stack upgraded to produce more drag. Guess it still would have marinized bronze gears, and brass sleeve though. I still might buy a few of these...just to have. Any idea how many were produced (I.e. How rare/common they are)?
Yes the pin can be replaced. It has a flat screw head and is threaded in. The main gear and metal parts of the drag system key on the shear pin. You can see the pin or screw on the gear sleeve in the first picture. The dogs are also alternating for no handle slop. The alarm ratchet gear is around 2" in diameter and it's very loud..!!
Sorry for the mistake on size. That is a 4/0 in the picture.
At one point, I did replace the shear pin with a stainless pin after the original shear pin sheared off. That caused the gears to strip and I learned what the shear pin was for.
I do have several of these reels and continue to buy them when I see them at a good price. Since parts are unavailable, extra reels serve as the parts dept.
They were not rare from the standpoint that many were made. They are rare from the standpoint that fewer were sold because the Senators were a lot cheaper. Additionally, when Pfleuger stopped production, and reels broke, people just junked them since they couldn't be repaired. Nevertheless, there are a lot more of them than the much higher end Atlapacs, and reels from some other companies (Vom Hoff, Kovalovsky, etc) that were essentially each hand made one at a time.
Quote from: Makule on August 12, 2014, 12:30:48 AM
A unique feature was the incorporation of a shear pin on the drag disk plate. This was included so that the pin would shear before damage was done to the gears (from too much drag). It was a good protective feature, but it severely limits the drag.
A replacement with a SS pin might beef it up significantly, but its a little lacking in the drag category....
I'm in the middle of restoring one of these that I inherited from my dad. It's been sitting in my garage for 20+ years, and when I became semi-retired I decided I had the time to do something with it. It was me wanting to learn something about how to fix this reel that originally brought me to this site about 8 mos ago. There was a lot of spool corrosion, some dings in the side plates, and the leather thumb drag was pretty well dried out - but it did respond to mink oil (and is acceptably supple after a few applications. I had to take the spool down to brass, and did so much the same way Mike Cacioppo showed with his drill press. I started at 320 grit wet/dry ->400 grit >1000 grit ->1500 grit->2,000 grit. I may go over the spool again, but I'm very happy with the way she turned out; it's not yet perfect, and that word should be removed from my vocabulary, because I need magnification to see the imperfections.... so maybe I'm just nuts.... My dad would be proud that I "refurbished" one of his trolling reels almsot 1/4 of a century after his untimely demise. I'm not sure if this has truly been "refurbished", I did little more than clean really well, but I wet-sanded the bakelite, chrome and spool, and the chrome on most parts was thick enought that I didn't sand all the way throughl. All parts and every atom of it is originally came from wherever it was purchased, (but I think it has a Penn handle that has been welded in the center to accommodate a Pflueger fitting.. I'm tempted to leave it as it is; I was initionally intending on replating (chrome) the spool, but I think she looks great as she is and if I do any more I may detract from her value (although she's not for sale at this time - I want to keep her around to enjoy looking at her.)
Keith, if you could, and there's no rush, could you take off the right side plate on yours and send me photos of the clutch mechanism of the right side plate, in particular the orientation of the clutch spring? I didn't take pics of this disassembly (stupid!), and I might not have it in properly even thought it seems to work1 really well, so I may have lucked out and got it right. I'm particularly interested in the proper installation of the spring. I reassembled from memory and ingenuity, and it works, but I don't know if I've maybe created a different mouse trap and it it might snap that pinion out more forcefully to contact the spool if configured differently. I reassembled it, and it works, I'm just not sure it couldn't be configured in another way.I'll post pics tomorrow, I've been wet-sanding for a day, and I need to get some shut-eye.
Oh, and that top bearing on the stack you called a roller bearing? I'm not sure, but I think thrust bearing might be a better descriptor. It works as a sleeve spacer when the star it tightened down - I thought this was the definition of a thrust bearing - withstanding axial loads while allowing rotation. I'm trying to learn new terminology, and this is what I found when another member posted about a thrust bearing of which I had no understanding at the time.
Anyway, Keith, if you could show me a few angles that show how the clutch spring is oriented I can maybe put this together as it was intended. I'll never fish this reel.... it belonged to my dad.... but I'm trying to make it function as the day it left the factory. Can you show me the handle yours has, too? Mine looks like it has a weld to help it fit a 9/0 Penn Senator handle - football-shaped, red grip handle and all.. I think it's a modified Penn handle that really should be a wooden handle.
Keith, no rush, but when you get some down time and feel like taking some pics to help me out, I'd be much obliged. I'll post pictures tomorrow. I don't have the energy or the patience to do this at this time of night.
Peace to everyone. May tomorrow, and each day after, find a little more peace in the world than the day before.
Thanks.
Sid
SE FL
Love to see some before and after pictures Sid.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on January 11, 2016, 06:37:07 AM
Love to see some before and after pictures Sid.
John, I promise, tomorrow, it's really late on the east coast and I just don't have it in me tonight.
Quote from: sdlehr on January 11, 2016, 06:29:06 AM
...I didn't take pics of this disassembly (stupid!), and I might not have it in properly even thought it seems to work1 really well, so I may have lucked out and got it right. I'm particularly interested in the proper installation of the spring. I reassembled from memory and ingenuity, and it works, but I don't know if I've maybe created a different mouse trap and it it might snap that pinion out more forcefully to contact the spool if configured differently. I reassembled it, and it works, I'm just not sure it couldn't be configured in another way...
Thanks.
Sid
SE FL
HI Sid,
I have done a few Templar 1420 1/2's, as well as their smaller 1419 3/4 counterparts...The clutch spring is a bit tricky to properly install as you must first flex the two "tag ends" in opposite directions, thus loading the spring which must be kept under tension at all times during installation..
I'm sure Pflueger used a tool to do this, but my process also works and utilizes two posts/crossbars that I removed from a discarded reel (small baitcaster) and cut to size...First, the "tag ends" of the spring are inserted into each crossbar's screw holes, then one of the bars is rotated in an arc 180 degrees thereby putting the coil spring under tension..
Next, I will carefully pinch the two crossbars together in one hand, aligning the spring such that it rests between the yoke-support tabs, before lowering the yoke into place with my other hand...Each end of the spring must be tucked inside the yoke before proceeding on to the next step which is to maneuver the spring-retaining pin into place--all the while keeping hold of the crossbars, and the spring in alignment..
This is a fidgety process and I find it easier to focus on getting the pin through one side of the yoke first, then the other, rather than trying to push it through both ends at once...The pin must run through the following parts in the order they are listed:
1.Yoke support tab (left side)
2.Yoke (left side)
3.Clutch spring
4.Yoke (right side)
5.Yoke support tab (right side)
Regretfully I don't have any close-up photos of the above procedures, but I do have some of the homemade "crossbar spring-holders", and probably a partial shot of the spring correctly installed...Let me upload them to photobucket first and I will post them here..
Chad
PS,
Thanks for the tip on using mink oil for the leather thumb drags, I will have to give that a try..
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-07-19%2014.48.32.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-07-19%2014.48.32.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-07-23%2012.13.06.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-07-23%2012.13.06.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160110_220348.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160110_220348.jpg.html)
Here you go, pretty much self-explanatory...The longer "tag end" of the spring is on the left, (side plate upside down, gear sleeve at the bottom)...Both coil ends of the spring are tucked inside the yoke...I love these reels as they are quality-built, (sort of like a budget version of the venerable Atlapac), and cast surprisingly well (ulua fishing)...Only caveat is that there is no rod clamp, only five skinny crossbars, and both main and pinion gears are made from phosphor bronze--very smooth but not as tough as steel...As Makule mentioned they will strip if the drag is ramped up too far..
Chad
Mahalo Chad,
And those reels still catch fish today. There is a club on Oahu that still fish exclusively with Pflueger Templar reels that was past down by their great grandfathers to their fathers, and not them. Caught fish back then, and catch fish today.
Bryan
Quote from: Tightlines666 on January 11, 2016, 06:37:07 AM
Love to see some before and after pictures Sid.
John, I'm having trouble locating the before pictures, here are a few after. The handle isn't original. Somewhere along the line someone welded a fitting onto a Penn handle so it would match the square sleeve on the Pflueger. I don't believe this was done when my dad owned this reel, he likely purchased it this way.
Here's the spool after wet sanding with 2000 grit (http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7163_zpsbmaeq8hy.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7163_zpsbmaeq8hy.jpg.html)
Here's a few of the finished(?) product. I still haven't decided if I'm going to do anything with the chrome - I bought a plating kit from Caswell, it arrived today, but I'm thinking of leaving this as it is with the brass spool, maybe just re-chroming the side rings... opinions welcome. This will be a shelfie; I have no oil or grease on it anywhere right now (intentionally, anyway) - it would interfere with plating.(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7229_zpsk3rowobu.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7229_zpsk3rowobu.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7228_zpsoacjdvrl.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7228_zpsoacjdvrl.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7216_zpsnjfeuqfh.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7216_zpsnjfeuqfh.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7215_zpskijdgzta.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7215_zpskijdgzta.jpg.html)
There was a miniscule crack forming on the left side plate; I mixed bakelite powder with epoxy (as described in the ORCA book) and filled in the cracks. The first attempt was with Pro-Paste, a thick epoxy used in rod building for grips and reel seats. It was too thick and didn't get into the tiny crack. The second attempt worked much better; I used Pro Kote that I use for wrapping guides and just brushed it (with the impregnated bakelite powder) onto the cracks. When I sanded the excess away the crack was practically undetectable. I know where it is, but have to strain my eyes to see it. I'm happy with the way this turned out now, and am thinking it's best just to oil it up and put it on the shelf. Anything I do from here on in will only detract from the value without enhancing the appearance very much. I'll see if I can locate the before photos on the other computer. I'm going to have to start cataloging my photos better, not sure how yet.
Wow!
Great job!
That reel looks beautiful. I wouldn't plate anything, maybe just a little light oil and/or light grease on the moving parts. Might want to find a suitable era and model correct handle assembly to complete the restoration though. Maybe Fred Oakes can help? Otherwise try Brian Funai the Pfluger Guy (over at ORCA).
Thanks, John. Frederick? Searched the member database, came up blank. I am interested in making this period-correct with the proper handle. I'll peruse the ORCA site in a few.
Thanks.
Sid
SE FL
Thanks, John. I've contacted Brian and posted a WTB here and on the ORCA site. If I have to make a wooden knob to put on the proper crank, I will. Brian suggested that may be the best way, these handles are like hen's teeth. I've decided not to chrome anything and will start polishing; can't wait to post pics after she's all polished up.(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7216_zpsnjfeuqfh.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7216_zpsnjfeuqfh.jpg.html)
Chad, thanks for the help with the clutch spring. I'll be tackling that tonight!
Looks very nice Sid. Saw one at the tackle show last year and made the mistake of passing it up. Guess you cant buy them all! Nice work.
..........................Lou
Quote from: Bryan Young on January 11, 2016, 04:05:05 PM
Mahalo Chad,
And those reels still catch fish today. There is a club on Oahu that still fish exclusively with Pflueger Templar reels that was past down by their great grandfathers to their fathers, and not them. Caught fish back then, and catch fish today.
Bryan
Now that is my kind of fishing club, throwing around the old iron ;)....It's ironic though, as some of the old time fishermen I've talked with have advised me NOT to fish the Pfluegers of their day, but rather to save up for the Atlapacs of 2016--more drag, stronger frame, and two speeds!.. :D
On a more serious note, it's great that clubs are showing interest in fishing--and perhaps even restoring--the tackle of old just as Sid has done here, and a very nice job at that..
Chad
I polished her up last night, but she was already so shiny it didn't really change anything. I chrome plated the little bit of brass on the knob stem; I had to play with that kit I bought somehow. There's a learning curve to electroplating that I'm about to investigate. Rule #1 seems to be that the surface you are plating needs to be mirror-smooth before you start. I've not yet discovered the other rules.... it's inevitable that I will. When I get good at it you guys can send me parts to plate....
I never could have done this project without all the knowledge I gained from hanging out here. You guys are great, and I'm honored to be a part of this group.
Sid
SE FL
Quote from: sdlehr on January 11, 2016, 08:36:41 PM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on January 11, 2016, 06:37:07 AM
Love to see some before and after pictures Sid.
John, I'm having trouble locating the before pictures, here are a few after. The handle isn't original. Somewhere along the line someone welded a fitting onto a Penn handle so it would match the square sleeve on the Pflueger. I don't believe this was done when my dad owned this reel, he likely purchased it this way.
Here's the spool after wet sanding with 2000 grit (http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7160_zpse1ugzekn.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7160_zpse1ugzekn.jpg.html)
Here's a few of the finished(?) product. I still haven't decided if I'm going to do anything with the chrome - I bought a plating kit from Caswell, it arrived today, but I'm thinking of leaving this as it is with the brass spool, maybe just re-chroming the side rings... opinions welcome. This will be a shelfie; I have no oil or grease on it anywhere right now (intentionally, anyway) - it would interfere with plating.
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7216_zpsnjfeuqfh.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7216_zpsnjfeuqfh.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7214_zpsw6qwlaig.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7214_zpsw6qwlaig.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7223_zpseesjubnc.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7223_zpseesjubnc.jpg.html)]
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7228_zpsoacjdvrl.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7228_zpsoacjdvrl.jpg.html)
Quote from: sdlehr on January 11, 2016, 11:14:28 PM
Thanks, John. I've contacted Brian and posted a WTB here and on the ORCA site. If I have to make a wooden knob to put on the proper crank, I will. Brian suggested that may be the best way, these handles are like hen's teeth. I've decided not to chrome anything and will start polishing; can't wait to post pics after she's all polished up.(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7214_zpsw6qwlaig.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7214_zpsw6qwlaig.jpg.html)
Chad, thanks for the help with the clutch spring. I'll be tackling that tonight!
While easy to forget with all of our hot rod reels, and upgrades, and shiny blinger brands out there today -- even with smaller drags -- these reels and the old timers that used them caught some really big fish...
How did they do it?
They used the advantage of a good heavy duty, stout -- but flexible rod to handle and overcome 80% of their drag difficiencies.
I am not saying anything, that most of us do not know already -- but sometimes we tend to forget (I know I do) when caught up in the technology and engineering of modern reels.
In the proper experienced hands -- just using good technique, finesse, and experience -- large fish can be easily brought to the rail, just by feeling and anticipating the fish, using the rod action to tire the fish -- while using the reel to retrive line when possible.
Many anglers of today expect their reel to do the fishing for them --
While the drag may not have been the top of the line compared to our reels of today -- many of us do not give the other two parts of the equation their due credit -- a good rod, and an experienced angler.
Just a few thoughts, as we honor those old timers and their gear.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: sdlehr on January 11, 2016, 11:14:28 PM
Thanks, John. I've contacted Brian and posted a WTB here and on the ORCA site. If I have to make a wooden knob to put on the proper crank, I will. Brian suggested that may be the best way, these handles are like hen's teeth. I've decided not to chrome anything and will start polishing; can't wait to post pics after she's all polished up.
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7226_zpsm20dtre2.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_50%20Pflueger%20Templar%201419%203_4/DSC_7226_zpsm20dtre2.jpg.html)
Chad, thanks for the help with the clutch spring. I'll be tackling that tonight!
If you still need the pictures I'll be glad to pull it down and take some for you. I have quite a few old reels up on a shelf I can't reach. I need to get them down and take pictures of all of them.
Quite a few bamboo rods too.
I'm waiting on Fred to post some pictures of what I sent him the other day. It's cool and I hope he uses it. I've had it for over 20 years and never taken it out of its "package".
Keith
Sid, how did it go?
Quote from: cbar45 on April 15, 2016, 03:50:12 PM
Sid, how did it go?
Once I figured out the proper orientation and which way it needed to be loaded it was easy. Kind of. Awkward is a better description, but it's fully operational and I thank you. If I ever do this again I will take pics of the disassembly.
Thanks
Sid
Way to go Sid!
"Kind of awkward" is a perfect description of the process, accomplished without a proper tool for the job.
Chad
Yeah, it's a pretty stiff spring, so loading it and trying to manipulate it and keep it in place was pretty hairy, but in the end it turned out just fine. I think next time I tear down the reel I'll leave that part as it is...
Thanks for the help, Chad. As I recall I did use two old posts as tools to hold the spring....
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on April 20, 2016, 12:55:44 AM
Yeah, it's a pretty stiff spring, so loading it and trying to manipulate it and keep it in place was pretty hairy, but in the end it turned out just fine. I think next time I tear down the reel I'll leave that part as it is...
Thanks for the help, Chad. As I recall I did use two old posts as tools to hold the spring....
Sid
Glad you found my description of installing the spring to be of help.
I felt like a tech-writer typing all that out; wasn't sure how accurate it would be for someone else to follow..;)
Agree with you on leaving the spring in place. Unless damage/etc necessitates removal, that part of the reel can be easily oiled or greased lightly without taking everything apart.
There were two types of handle knobs on the Templar reels. One was plastic that's shaped like a "conventional" knob, and the other was perhaps walnut shaped like a "stick out" knob. The stick out type probably came first, and it isn't as easy to grab as the type shown here.
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j428/royhilo/400-handle_zpsrh31n31j.jpg)
The fishing group that Bryon referred to on Oahu, HI was called the Atlapac Fishing Club. It is still around and active.
Sid, I would not chrome plate except for the spool. Pfleuger used nickle silver instead of chrome plating.
Quote from: Makule on June 17, 2016, 09:40:59 PM
Sid, I would not chrome plate except for the spool. Pfleuger used nickle silver instead of chrome plating.
Thanks! As it turned out, I would only really be tempted to plate the spool.... the Nickel Silver needs no help :)
Sid
Sid,
That was some outstanding work on that Templar.
I recently was given a 1420 1/2.
That is why I seeked out this post.
You have some skills for sure.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on December 04, 2016, 09:07:05 PM
Sid,
That was some outstanding work on that Templar.
I recently was given a 1420 1/2.
That is why I seeked out this post.
You have some skills for sure.
Thanks, DD! I re-chromed the spool flanges a while back but forgot to post pics. Have fun with your Templar! They're built like a tank.... SS internals are pretty heavy!
Sid